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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • 280hp280hp Member Posts: 36
    i remember toyota. honda and datsun from the early days. they didnt even try 2 enter this end of the market till 20 years later. after dominating the mainstream car segment.

    part of the reason they could survive those early years was the lack of competition and the unique circumstance of having oil price rise suddenly.

    those 2 pre conditions for survival no longer exists.

    as to hyundai = below average reliability, i think thats fairly well accepted and what most people think. very few people will actually accpet that hyundai have japanese car reliability until they really start to see 10 year old hyundais still trouble free and on our roads.

    that may yet happen, but not for another 10 years or so. may be longer.

    in the meanwhile, will hyundai run out of money ?
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Check out jdpowers.com for initial quality ratings for 2003.

    Mechanical Quality:
    Accord: 3
    Camry: 3
    Sonata: 4

    Feature and Accessory Quality:
    Accord: 4
    Camry: 4
    Sonata: 4

    Body and Interior Quality:
    Accord: 2
    Camry: 5
    Sonata: 5

    "@ least they can say they have great reliability and lower maintenance costs. what has hyundai got 2 offer?"

    Pretty good reliability, good quality, a great warranty, and a great price for the features. Still has lots of room to improve regarding engine power.

    *Moderator: Although they're kinda off-topic, I hope you don't delete these posts since they consider the viability/worthiness of a new manufacturer entering this segment (some time in the future.) =)
  • 280hp280hp Member Posts: 36
    out of 37 nameplates :

    lexus 1st
    infinity 2nd
    acura 5th
    hyundai 31st
    kia 37th
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Re: vdi 2003 rankings

    That study surveys cars that are 3 years old, not 2003 models.

    We all know that Hyundais from that time are not up to par in reliability.

    But by most indications, Hyundais have made great strides in the reliability department.

    http://www.consumerreports.org/main/content/display_report.jsp?FO- - LDER%3C%3Efolder_id=402631&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=389451&- - bmUID=1078916491036

    I do agree with you, that many people (such as yourself) still perceive Hyundais as trouble prone cars. Also, the jury is still out on the long-term reliability of these vehicles.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    A 10 year warranty has all but eliminated past concerns from the original excel era. The warranty's are nearly costless according to insiders as there is no tranferability and most people wont keep the car for more than 4 years. Thier repuation is much improved and with US and japanse investements in Huyundia they will only get better. They weren't around in 1980 here in US and are now 3rd largerst carmaker I believe and sell more than Chrysler here at home.
  • fjm1fjm1 Member Posts: 137
    My .02: Aggressive TQM coupled with very low total costs of operation spell success for Hyundai. They will not target premium brands until after they have big market share on volume niches like compact and mid size family sedan. The biggest wild card I see is their politics. Could fowl up the whole plan.
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    made great strides. Their cars are A LOT better than what they were just a few years ago. They still have a ways to go before they catch up with the big 3 Japanese manufacturers. My biggest beef with Hyundai is that their designs are derivative and not very original. I see Jaguar and Mercedes in some, the new Tibby rips from Ferrari. I guess if you are going to copy do it from the best.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    They do hire italdesign firms
  • wco81wco81 Member Posts: 590
    The biggest wild card I see is their politics. Could fowl up the whole plan.

    What does that mean?
  • fjm1fjm1 Member Posts: 137
    North Korea nuclear ambitions will remain a drag on South Korea's sovereign credit ratings. Check Moody's rating over past few years. Roller coaster anyone?

    I did not mean the companies politics, per say. Profuse apologies for any confusions.

    On-Topic: G35 rocks!
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    S. Korea's credit ratings had little to do with N. Korea. Their problem was that they tied up too much capital in unproductive conglomerates whose ROI was awful because they were not run by real businessmen, but well connected people who were able to obtain interest free government loans and guarantees, which basically encouraged rampant overexpansion and covered up their mistakes.

    For example, the South Korean domestic car industry is large enough to support only 1, maybe 2 domestic manufacturers. Instead, S. Korea had Hyundai, Kia, Daewoo and for a brief time, Samsung.

    It is insane that Korea had 4 major manufacturers when Germany can support only 2 and the U.S. had 3 (until recently).

    Now that Hyundai is the only major car manufacturer in Korea and doesn't have to worry about insane competition in its home market, they can focus on building better product.

    Personally, I can't see Hyundai entering the luxury market until they can compete on a level playing field with Toyota, Honda and Nissan in terms of quality and reputation. When the big 3 of Japan made their move into luxury, what made it possible was the fact that they had cemented their reputations as building solid, reliable cars. Until Hyundai acquires that bulletproof rep, I can't see people associating Hyundai with that luxury brand image.

    OTOH, if Hyundai keeps up the good work, it won't necessarily take long. Look how fast Ghosn turned around Nissan/Infinit.
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    "Until Hyundai acquires that bulletproof rep, I can't see people associating Hyundai with that luxury brand image."

    Back in 1986, Honda did not exactly have a bulletproof reputation nor could most people associate Honda with a luxury brand image. Yet, they did the unthinkable and launched a luxury car brand...Acura. Five years later in 1991, the Legend Coupe won Motor Trend's prestigious Import Car of the Year trophy. The same year, the Integra took the laurels as one of Car & Driver's Ten Best. The Integra would continue to make the Ten Best list in four of the next ten years. The Legend Coupe won the title twice.

    Kinda makes you think, don't it?
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    Not disagreeing with any of your points. If Hyundai makes a great car at a great price, yes perhaps they could compete.

    But there are several factors working against that.

    First, the competition now is much more intense than ever before. Cadillac is producing nice cars, Chrysler is coming out with interesting product, the [non-permissible content removed]. big 3 are in the game now, and though MB and BMW have stumbled, they're still major players.

    What worked back then won't necessarily work now.

    Second, I don't know Hyundai's cash situation, but I don't think it's as good as Honda or Toyota when they launched their luxury brands.

    In any case, I don't think Hyundai belongs in this thread since they are not yet considered luxury.

    Hopefully Hyundai will follow the path of the Japanese. More quality cars, choices and competition can only benefit consumers.

    What will be interesting is what happens when the Chinese come up with their own car brands and start entering the world market.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Folks we are getting pretty far away from discussing the vehicles in our self-defined category...
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    All good points saugatak, thanks. Thanks to everyone for their interesting and insightful comments on the subject.

    Now to move on...TL's hot!! :-)
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Back in 1986, Honda did not exactly have a bulletproof reputation nor could most people associate Honda with a luxury brand image. Yet, they did the unthinkable and launched a luxury car brand...Acura. Five years later in 1991, the Legend Coupe won Motor Trend's prestigious Import Car of the Year trophy. The same year, the Integra took the laurels as one of Car & Driver's Ten Best. The Integra would continue to make the Ten Best list in four of the next ten years. The Legend Coupe won the title twice.


    When did honda launch a luxury brand? They've got a tweener brand.

    And to whom is any award from MT or CD prestigous? Like all industry awards in every industry, these things are bought either outright or through more round about means. MT car of the year is most often a death knell for a vehicle. The G35 is one of the few COTY winners that wasn't a bust.
  • pisciottapisciotta Member Posts: 54
    good answer I agree with you just look at the RL
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    wasn't the k car car of the year
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Member Posts: 252
    Subaru with the new Legacy is on the cusp of Premium / Near Luxury right now. We are only waiting for the "Official" pronouncements from the media to validate this. This is not even considering the Premium Subaru 7 Pass that is in the works.

    Now to true Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

    Here is the Hirsch Aero Stuff

    http://www.saab-performance.com/

    SAAB 9-5 AERO TAKES OFF WITH A HIRSCH PERFORMANCE PACKAGE

    Already known for its responsive performance, contemporary design and world-class safety, the sporty Saab 9-5 Aero gets a bit more extreme with the introduction of the Saab Performance by Hirsch enhancement package.

    Saab's Hirsch package for the 9-5 Aero gives the growing number of enthusiast customers a chance to express their individuality with significant engine and chassis upgrades and sporty styling treatments for the interior and exterior. Customers can mix and match options, as desired.

    The Saab Performance by Hirsch package upgrades the Trionic engine control module, turbocharger, intercooler and intake pipes to provide a 22 percent horsepower boost to the Saab 9-5 Aero's 2.3-liter turbo engine - from 250 to 305 hp. The torque also rises, from 258 to 309 lbs.-ft. These numbers would provide the Saab 9-5 Aero with 133 horsepower per liter of displacement - a feat unmatched not only by other luxury sports sedans and wagons, but also unmatched by most sports cars.

    Other enhancements include a full sports exhaust system, including dual tailpipes, performance brakes, a lowered chassis with sport-tuned suspension and 18-inch alloy wheels.

    Bystanders will know something other than the standard 9-5 Aero passed them when they see the sports mesh grille insert, front bumper assembly with integrated spoiler and unique contoured rear bumper that come with the Hirsch package. Plus, the 9-5 SportWagon gets a spoiler on the rear bridge, while the sedan gets a trunk-mounted lip spoiler.

    Inside, the Hirsch package offers sports leather trim for the seats and door inserts, brushed aluminum door handles, aluminum pedals, sport steering wheel and a unique finish for the main fascia, including the information and audio displays.

    The Saab Performance by Hirsch package for the 9-5 Aero is the result of the long-term agreement between Saab Automobile AB and Hirsch Performance AG, the Swiss company with extensive experience in customizing Saab cars.

    Saab Performance by Hirsch products are fully guaranteed by Saab and Hirsch.

    HIRSCH PERFORMANCE PACKAGE FOR THE SAAB 9-5:
    Upgrades of Trionic ECM, turbocharger, intercooler, intake pipe
    Horsepower boosted to 305 bhp max
    Torque increased to 309 lbs.-ft.
    Sports exhaust with dual pipes
    Performance brakes
    Lowered chassis with sports-tuned suspension
    18-inch alloy wheels
    Sports mesh grille insert
    New front bumper assembly with integrated spoiler
    Contoured rear bumper assembly with sculpted side sill extensions
    Roof-mounted rear bridge spoiler (wagon) or trunk-mounted lip spoiler (sedan)
    Sports leather interior, including seats and door inserts
    New interior fascia finish, including information and audio display
    Brushed aluminum interior door handles
    Aluminum pedals
    Sports steering wheel

    Lobbying to persuade Saab to sell this kit in the US.

    Boys & Girls I love the TL and the Infiniti but at extra legal speeds I would rather be in a Saab Aero.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    Kicking the old RL is a cheapshot . . . nobody defends the old RL, but the new RL looks pretty nice and if it's SH-AWD works as advertised, with the 300 HP v6 (best in class aside from insanely priced M3 and M5), I think the new RL will do pretty well and probably raise the prestige of the Acura brand.

    Until Acura incorporates SH-AWD into their entire lineup, they're going to be considered a tweener brand b/c, like it or not, luxury is now associated with RWD or AWD. Some claim a v8 is necessary for lux as well, but I don't agree with that because very few people elect v8s for their sedans, even when available. I would, however, like to see Acura incorporate a V8 (or IMA or other torque boosting tech.) in their SUVs which are in serious need of a low end torque boost

    However, there's nothing wrong with tweener luxury brands. I think it's great that you can get a TL or G35 for approx. $20k less than the equivalent BMW or MB (I'm comparing 5 and C class here, not 3 series b/c it's just too small).

    I know there are fans of Acura and Infiniti who are annoyed with the MB/BMW/Lexus snobbery, but honestly, is it really a good thing for the consumer if both Acura and Infiniti climb up the prestige ladder a la Lexus? What do I get out of that? The right to pay more for the same car? The feeling of superiority from the badge?

    Frankly, I'm hoping that Acura and Infiniti continue to produce quality vehicles yet remain tweener brands.

    If you race me in my TL or G35 (narrowed down my choice to these 2) in your Lexus/BMW/MB and I lose, it's because my wallet is so much heavier than yours.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    it's not even available here. it's like the kids babbling about the STi in 1998.

    Yes, 300 HP through the front wheels. I'd rather a 300 HP RL thanks. At least it can put the power down through the rear wheels too.
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Member Posts: 252
    True, I can work with this then

    http://www.nordicsaab.com/en_US/HomePage_1.chtml

    And the 300Hp AWD RL

    'it's not even available here. it's like the kids babbling about the STi in 1998' ;-D
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    The RL is not one of our subjects ...

    In order to support the edmunds.com site and the links from it to our discussions, it has become very important that we at least mostly stick to the topic.

    That's hard to do in a largely unfocused discussion such as this one, I realize.

    I think we are often getting into territory that would fit better in an opinion discussion on the News & Views board, rather than here on the Sedans comparo board.

    I have no investment in ending this conversation, but if we are done comparing the subject vehicles (pat Mar 19, 2004 6:34pm), I really have to call the discussion done.

    Sorry, I know this seems heavy handed, but it is important that (and it is my responsibility to ensure that) the links from edmunds.com into the sedans discussions take folks to conversations that the links represent.

    I appreciate your understanding.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "If you race me in my TL or G35 (narrowed down my choice to these 2) in your Lexus/BMW/MB and I lose, it's because my wallet is so much heavier than yours."

    But that's my choice right? It's not about the finances it's about the cars. Hey an EVO can dust off all of these cars with change to spare, and my wallet will still be heavier than yours.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    it was an attempt at humor man.

    maybe i'm not as funny as i thought.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "maybe i'm not as funny as i thought."

    Nah you're funny, just forgot the smiley at the end. :)
  • mdhaukemdhauke Member Posts: 202
    yhea, cept the EVO is not in the same class.
  • sweetc230sweetc230 Member Posts: 33
    I test drove the automatic G35 coupe yesterday and was overwhelmingly impressed. Actually, I was so impressed that I am going to be buying one as soon as I find the combo that I am looking for; which is white/charcoal with the premium, areo & performance packages. The manuatic was extremely smooth and actually a lot of fun to use. I just love the power and how flat it stays in the corners. The coupe is definitely one sweet ride. So sweet, that it will be the first slushbox that I have ever owned. I'll report back when I finally find the one I'm looking for.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    driven the manual?
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    I had a day off and was running errands in the "dealers area", so i drove a few of these. Highs and lows follow

    9-3 aero:
    Highs: Fairly plush&quiet ride for '17 rims, roomy cabin and trunk, good power, cabin and interior design, OTD price
    Lows: Turbo lag, body roll, cabin quality, sketchy dealer.

    TSX:
    Highs: high-end power, standard accouterments/$, percieved reliability
    Lows : slightly harsh noisy ride, still seems like a 4, dealer markup on accessories makes accord v6 seems like a better deal, headroom.

    c230:
    Highs: love the interior, impressive dealership, plush quiet ride with good handling
    Lows : power: over-revved the engine 3 times, noisiest engine tested, v6 price, reliability stats

    325i:
    Highs : excellent handling and quiet ride, silky six, overall quality and solidity
    lows: price increases quickly when optioned, more isolated than should be, 2.5L lacks low-end.

    Just some subjective impressions.
  • hoyahenryhoyahenry Member Posts: 399
    Not trying to pick an argument, just noting that during my test drive, the engine noise in the 3 was the one impression I took away. I thought it sounded unrefined and unnecessarily voluminous.
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    Must be a matter of taste, i suppose. According to autosite, supposedly the 325 is 68db@70mph, 73 WOT, the TSX is 67db@70, 74WOT, the TL 67 / 74, the 9-3 68/74, c230 72/88 ( different site ). So, aside from the c230 they ought to be indistinguishable in volume. So, i guess it depends on the timber and freqency you're used to. I like how the 3 sounds, but i know it's taste. I like how the old saab 2.0 sounds more than the new one, and i think the x-type 3.0 sounds great ( i question much of the rest of the car, though ).

    dave
  • hoyahenryhoyahenry Member Posts: 399
    Well, I'm talking about engine sound coming through the firewall at 0-50 mph, not the cabin noise level, which includes road/tire and aerodynamic wind noise. My test drive of the 325 was more sub-urban, non-highway, constant start/stop/start, which is what I do most often.

    I wanted a more refined sound environment. What I heard was just somewhat better to what the 86 325 feels like now in 2004. So much for the 3 redesigns since then, huh?
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    Like it said it must be taste. If it's going to be 70db regardless, i'd prefer more engine noise, and less tire & wind noise. I actually don't understand why someone would want otherwise.

    They got criticized for making the engine too quiet, so they livened it up. There isn't even a muffler, just a resonator.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    They got criticized for making the engine too quiet, so they livened it up. There isn't even a muffler, just a resonator.


    I hear or read often how people love the sound of inline 6s. Guess I'm the odd Bimmer owner as I think the inline 6 in normal form sounds tinny and weak. It lacks the growl of a VQ, imho.
  • glenfordglenford Member Posts: 138
    Thanks for posting those impressions - it must be fun to do them back-to-back, and it gives us input from someone who has "hands-on" info. I owned an (older) Saab. I also found that the turbo whistled - I always thought there was a cop with siren on approaching from behind. Recently drove the 325, and found it as you said, particularly very pricey as I wanted it.

    Your mission, should you choose to accept it:
    take another day off. Drive a G35, Audi A6, Cadillac CTS. Post.
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    I wish my boss gave me projects like you do! ;) I'd like to drive them, time is the issue. I think neither is very fuel efficient?

    I've driven the cts, and thought it was allright, but wasn't a big fan of the interior and the degree of isolation ( as in, engine too quiet ). On my old 900, you could only hear the turbo whistle if you rolled the windows down and listened for it.

    Nothing i've driven so far makes me want to spend a lot of money to get out of my car. I think i'll wait until there's an eco-car that tickles my fancy.

    dave
  • sweetc230sweetc230 Member Posts: 33
    Yes, I test drove the manual a couple of months ago. I was not impressed with the notchy gates and extreme vibration that I felt through the stick @ high rpms (IMO, it just felt unrefined). Like I said before, I have only owned manual transmissions (Volvo, Saturn, BMW, Honda, 2 VWs & my current Benz), but either I'm getting old or lazy, or maybe it's my new baby boy causing more distraction in the car (not to mention more traffic than ever in our capital city (Richmond, VA)), but I felt it was time to give the automatic a try. I love the engine, styling and incredible drive of the G35 coupe so much, that I figured if the slushbox didn't disappoint, and the manumatic feature wasn't just a gimmick, that I would buy one. I will still have my Benz 6 speed for Sunday afternoons without the family on board.
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    "I was not impressed with the notchy gates and extreme vibration that I felt through the stick @ high rpms (IMO, it just felt unrefined)."

    I experienced the exact same phenomena when I test drove the G35 Sedan 6MT. A real turn off.
  • fjm1fjm1 Member Posts: 137
    Yep, the tranny is definitely not as smooth as the BMW units. I like that the G35 has a shorter throw than the BMWs though.

    I just bought a G35 sedan w/6 speed. Took it through upstate NY this past weekend. Beautiful drive up around the Finger Lakes, Auburn and Skaneteles (sp?) area. Great roads, I highly recommend if you’re within a few hours check the area out. On to my new car....

    This car is quick. The broad torque and power curve give it tremendous flexibility. I was able to pass comfortably in 6th gear starting around 40 mph. Most other cars I've owned would have required some downshifting.

    When they say the 6 speed is close ratio they weren't kidding. My shifts generally resulted in only about 1-1.5K reduction in RPM's through most of the gears. I found myself starting off in 2nd, going to 4th, then on to 6th. Unless I wanted to rip.....

    And rip it does. Around corners its very stable and predictable. I knew exactly what the car was doing; direct link to the driver. The Bridgestone Turanza all seasons leave a bit to be desired, but what all-season doesn't?

    The highway ride is good for a sporty car. I would put it on par with my previous 2000 BMW 323 w/sport suspension. It was slightly more crusty than my previous 2003 Accord EX V6. NVH levels fit somewhere between the two mentioned cars. The seats favor a narrow backside. Glad I fit. Like a glove. HVAC is not intuitive but once set keeps constant temps. Cruise control also requires a bit more button punching than other vehicles I've had, but, again, once set it's steady eddie.

    No complaints from the back seat occupants. In fact, my son remarked on the large sunroof opening that extends back far enough for back seat occupants to enjoy a bit of the view. His center armrest was also put to good use for gameboys, food, drinks, etc.

    I really like the size of this vehicle as well. Slightly larger than my old BMW 3 series, IS300's, Mercedes C class and about the same size as the 5 series. Did I mention that in black the G35 sedan looks pretty darn good?

    25 MPG 3/4 highway, 1/4 country roads, with a few hammer down runs up around 130 mph ;-)
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Yep, the tranny is definitely not as smooth as the BMW units. I like that the G35 has a shorter throw than the BMWs though.

    To me the G35 tranny was better than the vague, notchy, binding junk BMW uses in its trannies. Neither car had Honda smooth trannies but I'd rather the truck-like feel and vibration of the G's manual to the VW-ish junk BMW uses.
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    Top seller of april 2004 for $30k-$38k sedan
    1. ACURA TL 6711 units
    2. LEXUS ES 6460 units
    3. BMW-325I 3960 units + 325XI 1423 units = 5383 units
    4. G35-SDAN 2890 units
    5. G35coupe 2532 units
    6. TSX-sdan 2367 units

    G35 sedan 2896 units
    G35 coupe 2532 units

    ES330 6460 units
    IS300 884 units

    TL 6711 units
    TSX 2367 units

    325i 3960 units
    325xi 1423 units
    330i 668 units
    330xi 475 units
    530i (E60) 926 units
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    So the acura tl must be all-around better than the porsche 911 turbo.

    But inferior to the kia sephia and the chevy malibu.

    Isn't it strange how things work? A sephia way better than a 911 turbo.
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    Sure,

    $3 big mac is much better than $192k porsche?

    $20k malibu/<$10k KIA sephia of course better than $192k porsche?

    Are they at the same segment? same price range? same type of car,sedan? Do people cross-shop them? If I need to eat, will I buy a diamond instead of food? lol, same old logic, try a new one!. :-)

    Its a common knowledge that people compare burger to burger, not burger to diamond. maybe not in lala land eh :-)

    Btw its only sales figures comparison. dont be delusional. Its where the market makes its statement. Not you or me. :-)
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    Doesn't BMW use GM trannies?....I remember hearing that somewhere.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Well sort of. If I'm not mistaken, BMW is eliminating (or has eliminated) the GM tranny from their lineup and is switching (or has switched) over to all ZF gearboxes (at least for the automatic transmissions). What I'm unsure about is if they are still using the GM version in their AWD 3-Series offerings, which I believe is/was the last application of that transmission.

    Regarding the GM transmission, it is/was not your run of the mill unit as is available here in the U.S. on any old GM car. This unit was built in a French factory and was not used for any cars sold in American except for maybe the now defunct Catera.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    Well, i'm not the one repeating the same old volume argument, desperate for sales-figure validation.

    Are they in the same segment? Maybe. One might question if the honda TL is in the same segment as the BMW's, and if the 30 extra HP is worth the price premium over the accord. ;)
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    a car that isn't next to you at every stop light?

    That is one nice thing about the IS300. Nice car that isn't too common.

    Would be interesting to see the demographic breakdown of buyers: age, sex, and income. The age of the IS300 average buyer is about 30, the lowest for all Toyota/Lexus products (even Scion).
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    Maybe in Omaha, NE the IS 300 is not common. Here in S. Florida they are a dime a dozen. Then again, so are BMWs, Audis and everything else you can dream of.
  • danny1878danny1878 Member Posts: 339
    One also might question if less hp is worth the price premium over the accord. Overpriced? :-)

    Posting a sales figure comparison doesnt need your vaildation aight? the truth is out there LOL.
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