Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

kyfdx · May 2004

From the spy shots I've seen, you can see the Bangle influences, but not in the rear (which to me, is the only thing that really bothers me about his designs).

Think X3 for the front end, and a cross between the X3 and the E60 5-series for the side view. My only concern is that it is supposedly growing in size, which would be great if you lean toward a 5-series, but not so great if you want something smaller.

regards,
kyfdx

speedracer3 · May 2004

From these spyshots it doesn't look half bad. Then again, you can only tell when you see it in person.

http://www.modernracer.com/spyshots/spyshots.html

kyfdx · May 2004

I like it... but you never know how true those pictures are... The 1-series however, those are actual shots.. I like that a lot also.

I've found that almost all of the new designs grow on me after I get used to seeing them. Even the 7 doesn't bother me like it used to.

regards,
kyfdx

chrisboth · May 2004

Anyone see that goofy looking subbie they are going to be killing the die hards with a 33k loaded sticker...awful but loaded with goodies. amazing how all the cars cost the same based on content regardless of some other major considerations - like a 4 cylinder is still a 4 cylinder and a drivetrain thatsnot better than an accord should not be more expensive than 1. 33K???

shipo · May 2004

This is the third time today that I have felt the need to challenge the assertion that the new E60 5-Series sales numbers are up. Up from what? Last year when the whole world knew that a new model was coming out and folks were waiting for the new car? Last year when 5-Series sales were WAY down from 2002?

While I don't have the numbers available, I'm betting that if one was to compare the 2004 sales numbers to the 2002 numbers YTD, that you'd find that the numbers for the new E60 are, if anything, down. Furthermore, my bet is that they will continue to go down even more.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom · May 2004

To each his own. I'd probably consider a current 5 - but I wouldn't have touched anything but the last gen M5 in the 5 series.

We all have different things we like.

And I never said sales were up vis-a-vis 2002, only up - which is the current spin. If they go down, I don't much care. If BMW stops selling cars, I simply won't be able to look at them when my lease is up.

I have no vested interest - emotional or financial - in the success of any company. Should BMW join Audi/VW as a laughingstock, so be it. I have other options.

riez · May 2004

fjm1... You have to keep in mind that Lexus has the ES330 and IS300 overlapping price points. Since the ES is based on the popular Camry, guessing its profit per unit, when calculated in dollars, is actually higher (though the IS is based on the Altezza). Lexus hardly advertises the IS. Lexus dealers pushing the ES (their perennial best selling car) and SUVs. Over half of Lexus' sales are SUVs.

The June 2004 issue of Motor Trend (p. 44) has an interesting sales chart labelled "Near-Luxury Segment Sales". BMW 3 Series is -12%. The ES330 is +13; the IS300 is -31%. MB C-class is +3%. G35 is +19% while the I35 is -39%. A4 is +3%. Jag X-type is -10%. Saab 9-3 is +27

kdshapiro · May 2004

I myself wouldn't get another 3-series until I know where BMW is taking that lineup. With rumors of a 3.5L, that *could* be my next vehicle. Of course, we'll have to see if BMW pushes xdrive downstream to the 3-series and gets rid of their current AWD setup.

I think a lot of people are waiting (including myself), not for the redesign of the exterior/interior, which I like on all models, but the bump-up of HP/torque under the hood.

BMW needs to go back to basics, which are all around competent vehicles with class leading HP, and a dash of Valvetronic technology thrown in for good measure. I can take or leave idrive for example, but they have to be more than the "underpowered" gold standard.

darnac · May 2004

Not to take this too off topic but since we are discussing the audio sytstems in comparable vehicles stereo (2 channel) is and probably will always be the audiophile's choice. Music reproduction is not about being in the center of it. Having played orchestral brass for many years you do not want to sit in the center of music. I dont think you would care either for the way a rock band sounds from between the singer and the drum kit. Music reproduction is about creating a sound stage that accurately reflects the original true source. When you go to the concert whether it is classical or rock the sound starts in front of you. There are no speakers at the rear. Room dynamics will bounce sound all over the place and these diffractions generally speaking should be avoided. 5.1 is what Hollywood uses and for that purpose (movies) it probably is best. Top Gun with the planes flying front to back is best created by 5.1, 5.2 or what are they now talking about 6.2 with a speaker overhead or something. It is a fact that DVD-A sounds much better than CD so from that standpoint the Acura has a big advantage. We may see some manufacture going for the better still SACD but I have not heard anything yet. If any of you are ever in Las Vegas in January they have the annual audiophile manufactures convention. They have dozens of rooms with some systems costing upwards of $100,000.
95% of the rooms are 2-channel stereo and most of those rooms use analogue (records) not digital sources.

jrock65 · May 2004

BMW sold 4400 5 series last month, and MB sold 5000 E-class. Pretty good for both companies. But you gotta remember that buyers in this segment are pretty much limited to these two cars right now, with the GS, A6, RL, M, and STS in their last model year. The story will change once these cars come out at almost the same time, and all of them seem much improved from the previous version.

I still expect the E and the 5 to be the sales leaders, but the other cars will undoubtely take quite a bit of sales away.

webby1 · May 2004

Here is the article on the latest nbrs from thr National Post.
Regards,
Webby
http://www.canada.com/search/story.html?id=4d62a948-b3ef-47ff-807- 5-3fbf06601bb5

kyfdx · May 2004

I think if you look at that list...and percentages up and down... They seem directly related to how new that model is... The newer models seem to be up, and the ones farther along in their life cycle seem to be down.

But, I'm with blueguy... I could care less overall how sales are... If it is a car I'm interested in, I hope they are way down.. that should help my price.

regards,
kyfdx

speedracer3 · May 2004

Personally, I do not care for the current 325i. I think the options are outrageously priced, and the car is underpowered for what you are paying. But my wife seems to want one, so she gets what she wants. That guarantees that I'll get what I want on when it's my turn

shipo · May 2004

I didn't see any relevant numbers in that article. The numbers that I'm looking for are 2004 vs. 2002 as anything compared to 2003 are essentially irrelevant because by then the E39 5-Series sales were on the decline.

Best Regards,
Shipo

webby1 · May 2004

I see you logic but it is always a good start is to deal with real available numbers rather assumptions, guessing, feelings and predictions.
Regards,
Webby

shipo · May 2004

I have the real 2004 vs. 2003 numbers and they are underwhelming at best (only the 545i shows a significant increase above the E39 540i). I also have a fairly good memory, and last year the E39 numbers were down substantially versus 2002, hence my assertion that the new E60 is something of a dud compared to the E39.

Best Regards,
Shipo

nyrefugee · May 2004

I have to say the pricing info you are giving is misleading. First you are comparing it with a coupe G35 and everybody knows that the coupes are (i) priced higher (ii) considered more rare and thus unlikely to get any discounts. Since the acura is a sedan, you should compare with the g35 sedan. On top of everything you are comparing with the g35 manual transmission coupe which is the rarest and highest performing g35 version. It is harder to get discounts on that car ... usually each dealership only has one of them and is not worried about being able to sell it.

Also you obviously preferred the accura which means you did not bargin for a better price for the infiniti.

If you compare a G35 sedan with a TL sedan the bargained for prices should be about the same.

I would still recomend the TL for laydi because it seems that she prefers features rather than performance and the TL does seem to have a couple of more features, such as voice recognition on the navigation, bluetooth, etc.

kyfdx · May 2004

My BMW was for my wife as well.. I happen to really like the 3-series, though. I agree that it is overpriced, as is almost every BMW. I'm not sure I agree with underpowered, though. If you are comparing a power/price ratio, then yes.... But, I think the car has plenty of power for its size and mission.

I'm not sure I'll get what I want, ever again... So, I got her car the way I would have wanted it.. Sport package (she could care less, but does like the seats), HK stereo (she never cranks it), Xenons... I also bought M68s off a 330i, so I could keep the winter tires on her stock style 96s. Unfortunately, she doesn't drive a stick, but it is her car after all.

So, I keep driving my Honda, and play with hers on the weekend.

What are you getting, next time?

regards,
kyfdx

speedracer3 · May 2004

I have no clue what I will be getting next time. I got another 3 years to go on my A4 lease. Plenty of time to see what new and exciting toys come out. In the meantime, if I do get her a Beemer I'll make sure it has some of the things I would want in a car, like Sport Package, maybe even SMG. She also likes the new Volvo S40 a lot let's see what happens.

fedlawman · May 2004

This topic has played itself out pretty well but, some new iron is on the horizon that might shake up this class.

I'm speaking of the 2004.5 Volvo S40 T5 and more significantly, the upcoming 2005 Subaru Legacy 2.5GT Limited.

http://www.need-desire.com/main.html

These two cars are knoking on the door of this segment. Will they be admitted to the club?

darnac · May 2004

I think the Volvo may be closer than the Subaru. I am very interested in the new Legacy but it is more sport than luxury and may not even be near luxury. No steering wheel audio controls. I know the IS300 does not either. Early rumours were the Legacy would not have a remote trunk release. The ride on the GT is going to be firmer than luxury. The GT has a bunch of quality thrown at it but they did not try to hard to convey an image of luxury. They are most certainly going for the sport crowd with 250 lb/ft of torque and lightened body panels. The GT may be my next car but I am getting it for the driving dynamics and not the cush. I currently drive an 02 MB C240 which is slow but very quiet and has near luxury features.

cwbarrett · May 2004

I have a 2002 Altima and ready to trade up. After reading these boards I took a 330IX stick for a test drive today and I don't understand all the praise. A stiff ride (all 330 have sport suspension acording to the sales guy) like that may be good for the track but it beats you up on New England roads. Yes the handling was tight but I didn't feel a strong connection with the road. The shifting was not overly smooth and it had the pickup of a 2001 Maxima. I felt the interior was very plain. I was really disappointed.

shipo · May 2004

First, a correction; not all 330 sedans have the sport suspension. The 330i has the sport suspension; the 330xi has the standard suspension.

Relative to the "stiff ride", I guess it's all a matter of personal taste. The suspension on the 330xi that you drove is the exact same suspension that I had on my 1999 328i, and if anything, it was too soft. As such, I ordered the Sport Package on my next BMW, and once again, if anything, it's too soft. Oh, and by the way, I live in New England.

Regarding not feeling connected to the road, well, with the standard 205/50 R17 All-Season tires that the "xi" comes with, I'm not too surprised. If you want to feel connected to the road, drive a 330i with the Sport Package (SP) or better yet, drive the 330i with the Performance Package (ZHP). FWIW, the SP will only make a marginal compromise in the ride of the car while improving the handling considerably. The ZHP will magnify that compromise/improvement considerably more.

Regarding the interior, yes, BMWs do typically have simple and very functional interiors, some of us like them, some folks don't. The good news is that there is plenty of competition in that segment these days and you won't have to look too much further a field to find something that suits you better.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom · May 2004

Altima 2.5? Doesn't sound like you have the 3.5 SE as that's pretty well known for having a bone jarring ride. The interior is plain? Those who live in glasses houses...

As for harsh, huh, I find my ZHP too soft.

Guess that's why they make so many brands of cars. One man's harsh (your view of the 330i) is another man's mildly sport (my view of a standard 330i).

qbrozen · May 2004

the upcoming legacy was brought up a while back and, consequently, disallowed by the host.

fjm1 · May 2004

CWBarrett: I hear yah. FWIW I echo the previous statements. If your going in search of the "BMW soul" a 330ix isn't going to show you what driving enthusiasts rave about.

As for "what's all the fuss" it can be hard to spot. The value added quotient for BMW's lies in the details. It takes a sharp eye to spot some of the over-engineering that goes into most BMW's. From great paint that will last the life of the car to premium tires on many of the sport models, and seats that are an ergonomic marvel, it all adds up.

Don't get me wrong, I still think they're overpriced and unreliable, but I can see, and more importantly feel, why others choose to own these fine driving machines.

blueguydotcom · May 2004

legacy was passed over because it's a subaru. how many times are we going to have to go over this? you can make a 100k subaru but it's still a subaru and thus not part of a luxury brand.

qbrozen · May 2004

relax. nobody was arguing (yet). i was just informing fedlawman of a past decision.

designman · May 2004

"you can make a 100k subaru but it's still a subaru and thus not part of a luxury brand."

Go ahead snub your nose. Even the Porsche crowd is fuming that STi and Evo performance is comparable to a 911 Carrera. And the STi can beat the M3.

You guys who want to see Subaru included here forget it... too much pedantic thinking. You will need a good lawyer, sympathetic judge, and probably an amendment to the US Constitution for this to happen.

Ridiculous.

speedracer3 · May 2004

I see Blue's point here. Nobody is questioning Subaru's prowess to build sport sedans. They are great little cars that deliver incredible performace for the buck, no question. I think the difference is that Subaru is not a luxury car manufacturer. The STI and Evo are both rally cars, they the farthest thing from what we are talking about here "Entry-Level Luxury Sedans".

fjm1 · May 2004

When Saab re-badges the Subaru THEN we can talk about it. Not a millisecond before. ;-)

Is the Saab line considered part of this discussion? 9-3 or 9-5?

designman · May 2004

In nearly every thread around here there is a wide tolerance for digression. It makes for stimulating uninhibited conversation. It's one thing when forum hosts get involved because this is a privately owned place and it is their prerogative, but getting tossed by another poster for questionable reasons is out of line.

As far as I am concerned, if a car doesn't fall within the topic BUT COMPARES to these cars it should be discussed by default. It's only normal and natural.

Furthermore, there's the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. And since this place is not a court of law, I think it would be better to adhere to the latter.

qbrozen · May 2004

i you go back and read, you will find that the host DID step in. I don't like it either, but must abide by it nonetheless.

blueguydotcom · May 2004

Pat's stepped in already. The Scoobie is just that, a Scoobie, not a luxury brand.

And yeah an STi is blisteringly fast. So's a mustang SVT. Neither are luxury cars, neither belong in a legit comparo of luxury brands.

If you think there should be a bang for the buck comparo discussion based on performance cars ranging from 30-45k, open that discussion. Then you can toss in the S2000, STi, CTS-V, M3, Mustang, etc, etc.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans have been defined. The Scoobie isn't one.

Heck, if I wanted just performance, i'd buy a 23k WRX and mod it like my brother-in-law's bro. He's got over 350 HP pumping through that ratty tin can econobox.

kahunah · May 2004

"When Saab re-badges the Subaru THEN we can talk..."

Already done!

http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/reviews/rt2336.shtml

pat · May 2004

We already decided what we're talking about in this particular discussion - if we don't draw the line somewhere, we end up spending too much time talking about what should or should not be included. Everything is explained here: pat Mar 19, 2004 6:34pm

Please let's not go through all of that all over again!

:-)

kahunah · May 2004

What do we do if BMW decides to rebadge a Subaru, just to keep up?! :-o

dhanley · May 2004

I'm surprised, as i thought everyone would rag on the subaru as a GM rebadge, but i've seen some positive articles, claiming the interior changes were very positive.

I'd have liked it better had they switched to the saab engine.

Out of all the cars i've driven in this topic, i still think i like the 9-5 the best as an overall price(otd price with rebates, etc )/package deal.

It seems that the CTS did really well in the last road and track issue.

dave

riez · May 2004

kahunah... Don't forget that BMW makes the Mini, which includes the Cooper S. Don't think the Mini belongs on this forum, but a heck of an interesting car!

cwbarrett · May 2004

Thanks for the feedback and correction of what I was told. I'll try another test drive with a different set of options. I know I'm looking at a serious trade up from my Altima. Its a POS. Hopefully I'll find something comfortable and fun for my 40 mile commute.

blueguydotcom · May 2004

I've seen nothing but positive stuff on the 9-2. Heck it addressed some things I dislike about the WRX - the cheap interior, the lack of sound deadening. Hey, I like some elements of luxury for my money!

oniac · May 2004

Not to mention that this WRX is ugly.. Looks like a car designed in the early 70's....

shipo · May 2004

"Not to mention that this WRX is ugly.. Looks like a car designed in the early 70's..."

Hey watch it bub! I think my 1970 Chevy Vega was WAY better looking than the WRX. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

fedlawman · May 2004

Sorry I brought it up.

I remember the discussion we had and the ultimate exclusion of the brand (which I basically agree with)...but that was before I saw a preview of the car.

The interior and exterior are entry-lux elegant, and 250 hp + AWD make it a very compelling car.

I think that the new Legacy is going to be a difficult car to define.

Anyways, sorry. I won't mention it again.

designman · May 2004

WRX isn't ugly. It's chimpanzee-cute.

blueguydotcom · May 2004

Not to mention that this WRX is ugly.. Looks like a car designed in the early 70's....

I don't much care what a car looks like on the outside. Bad exterior design won't impact my decision to buy. I drive from inside the car. not sure how you guys do it...

designman · May 2004

I've been a fan of the BMW and Porsche look, particularly the latter for 30 years. Subtle shape and details, clean lines, minimalism. To me styling is a big part of the total package. Now that BMW has gone to the fruit-cake look I will not buy another one even though they are without doubt the ultimate driving sedans. I can live with boring, but ugly crosses over my tolerance threshold. Am watching TL and RL closely. The styling is clean-cut and SH-AWD has my attention. But that's in the sedan category.

Sports cars are another story. For instance, I would never buy a yellow sedan, but it works on the two seaters. So do orange, purple and chartreuse.

I am also a fan of the kiddie cars aka boy racers. I know some people loathe them but I think they show energy and youthful panache. Wouldn't mind doin' up an M3 (the ultimate kiddie car) in purple with yellow and orange flames! Make that an E39 M5!!! Love ridiculous street cars.

;-)

gpwatfrd · May 2004

I don't care how impressive the car is on the track. If I view the exterior and/or interior as ugly than you will not see it in my driveway. As I have previously stated, the CTS does not appeal to me in the very least but I would drive it without being embarrassed. I can not say the same for the WRX.
Just my opinion....

kyfdx · May 2004

The looks of the WRX don't bother me that much.. I'm not in love with it, and I would have to have the wagon if I got one, though.

My problem is the inside. I keep thinking it would be worth $24K with all that power on tap, but then I get in, and there is no way... I think Saab could have a winner with the 9-2, what with WRX performance and (hopefully) an improved interior and more luxury options. Not that the WRX isn't already successful on its own.

regards,
kyfdx

speedracer3 · May 2004

What bothers me about the WRX, Evo, even the IS300 is that boy-racer look. I am in my mid 30's with young kids, and I have outgrown the "my car can beat you in a race" attitude. I want a car with nice classic lines that looks good, is moderately luxurious, and has a good mix of performance and utility. IF I was single and in my twenties, the above-mentioned cars would probably fix my lifestyle better.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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