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I'm not sure which of these mass produced cars are actually "rare" on the road. All of these cars have sporty rides with some leaning more towards performance than others, but this would be my short list:
BMW 3 series - If I wanted the benchmark
Lexus IS300 - CR rates this cars drivetrain almost as good as the 3-series. And as riez points out is has LSD.
Infiniti G35 - Stripper version almost the least expensive of the bunch.
Lincoln LS - I would question the reliability of these.
Cadillac CTS - should be awesome with it's new engine.
Audi A4 - all around nice car.
Acura 3.2TL - for a sporty sedan this would be at the top of the list.
Acura TSX - nice for a people without families
Mazda 6 - Not withstanding the rust issue that seems to be on Edmunds boards, the 6 goes head to head with the TSX, although the TSX has more upscale features.
M
Think the heart/meant of this segment is around $27,500-32,500. With the fringes at $25,000-27,500 and $32,500-35,000. A car with an MSRP of $40,000-$44,000 that actually sells for around $35,000 really is in this segment. Lincoln (LS), Cadillac (CTS), Infiniti (M45) and some others heavily discount their cars.
This would cover everything from Acura TSX, Nissan Maxima, Jag X-type 2.5, MB C230, and 300M (at the low end) and the 330i, 525i, Jag X-type 3.0 & C320 (at the high end) with a ton of cars in the middle. Leaves cars like CTS6, LS6, and IS300 in the middle.
Jag X-type a great example. Easy to see MSRPs of the 3.0 over $40,000. But Jag needs heavy subsidies and discounts to move. And for 2004, Jag lowered the base price of the 3.0 by a couple thousand dollars and added a couple thousand dollars of "free" standard equipment. The market spoke what this car was worth!
Remember the old G35 vs 3 Series debate? I always mentioned BMW CCA discount for members, long-term resale value, value of free maintenance, etc. Others raised ED price. I also included CPO. When G35 first came out, there was a limited supply and it was hot to market (with dealers not moving much off MSRP, though that has certainly changed now) compared to the readily-available E46 3 Series (that came out as MY99). Just looking at MSRPs didn't do justice to the cost analysis.
Of course, since discounts may vary by region, time of year, etc., MSRP always has to be an initial starting point.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
ok 3rd question. if i get a sedan what can i do to create more horsepower without going overboard in expense. i want a performance sedan not a kids car.
To mod the G you can do a ton with the work the guys owning 350Z have done - since the underpinnings are the same as the G the G guys do what the Z guys innovate. Cold Air intake, Pulleys, light flywheel, grounding kit, intake plenum upgrade, cams are available, headers, catbacks and true duals are almost availble. ECU upgrades to raise redline and improve mods where the ECU retard them by defaukt are available as well.
PS a guy with exhaust intake and plenum upgrade with a ECU flash got a 14.1 in an auto sedan. I think you could get to 13.9 with all the above. NA baby
Some or many of these may add up to a couple grand but its fun for me over time to do most of these things. Much more mods I think the m3 was good for and plenty more to come. There are some serious enthusiast in G forums out there too. Check em out
with the R you'd probably be up to around 340-350 hp with modest mods like that. With the G35 its tougher to say, but maybe you could get it up to 275-285 (if a chip is available) without getting into the big money mods.
Probably the biggest advantage of the R aside from AWD is the 4C suspension. I really don't know why anyone would say it doesn't feel as planted when all reviews I've read state that you would NOT want to use the Advanced setting on the R unless you were on a track. Sounds pretty planted to me. But I haven't driven both cars, so take that for what its worth.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I guess now I have no option, b/c the only comparable car to a G35 (BMW 330i w/ performance package--a must. Otherwise it's too slow.) is too much $$$. After receiving excellent service from both Honda and Saab, I have no interest in getting crap from any service dept./dealer. I mean, Saab gives you a loaner even if you are getting an oil change! And they just finished replacing the entire 200 watt Harmon Kardon sound system on my 9-5 because ONE speaker was fried (which was me playing the music too loud, not a defect). I definitely do not want to downgrade either in car quality (my 9-5 has been PERFECT) or service.
However, I just did some research on Lexis and and Infiniti is rated very high by JD Power and Associates.
For initial quality for the 2003 model year:
1. Lexus
2. Cadillac
3. Infiniti
8. BMW
11. Honda
14. Benz
29. Mazda
32. Saab
For dependability in 2003 (this rated vehicles of the 2000 model year after 3 years):
1. Lexus
2. Infiniti
13. BMW
12. Saab
26. Benz
For 1998 models after 4 years:
1. Lexus
2. Infiniti
10. BMW
16. Benz
19. Saab
Yet the bottom line seems to be that even tho Infiniti sells great cars, it has never developed the cachet of Lexus, much less BMW, etc. So it is desperate to sell cars. It is trying to rebuild its line (and Nissan) out of the slump brought on by the weak Yen and the success of Lexus.
Of course, the problem is that it seems to be caring more about GETTING customers than keeping customers.
Unless I get this car for below invoice, I won't take the chance on crappy product or service.
Am I right?
clutch is stiffer in g35, volvo has a light but spring loaded feel. the shifter of the G vibrates and takes a lot to get used to when shifting into reverse (Far right and downward motion) volvo doesn't vibrate and shifts into reverse more normally( what i'm used to)
both look good but have totally different looks G 35 has that japanesse looks whiel volvo has a more sedated euro look.
volvo steering feels looser at low parking lot speeds but tightens up when speed is increased. G-35 feels a little tight. both stick to the road and both seemed like they stop pretty well. i did not feel tubro lag and s60 had pop when accelating. s60 is awd and weighs more(don't need awd in Fla) i think the s60 is a little faster and hold a little better big 18" wheels w P zero's.
so my delema is which one do i get.
what will hold up betterin the long term. s60r is awd which i guess is nice but really isn't needed in Fla.
one is more expensive but is damm good both in and out. one is cheaper looks better out then in.
I think the g35 sedan wont hold value as well as the s60r because they will be produced in greater quanity.
any opinions would be appreciated.
PS there is no negotiating the resiudual. it is what the bank tells you it is and no car dealer can change it
You're not wrong to say that people have historically paid more for used Bimmers e it's true. Now the reality is people will pay the most for a G coupe of any car out there. Infiniti has had great cars for thier entire existence and now the market has bidded up one car int he lineup to reflect this. BMW manages it's used car markets better than anyone and perhaps Nissan learned something. History is nice but inadequate in most cases to accurately determine future trends. People who look backwards only in portfolio management get fired. In fact the real finds are in places where history has not been so kind.
Check this link for a comparision between BMW/Audi/Infinity:
Car_man "Lease Questions - Ask Here" Oct 7, 2003 7:19am!keywords=allin:msgtext%20limit:.ee9394d%20g35
" Nothing I have seen or heard of has changed this. But you have to be willing to go toe-to-toe witht he dealer to get the best deal. "
Read the article. The bank buys the residual info from some one who analyzes the market. IF not Kiplinger then who. Even if they are reporting the facts only...you can say you've seen this change.
RE the financial discussion perhaps we should take it elsewhere. The only fundamental principal held by Chartered Financial Analysts, the highest designation for institutional money managers is having a basis for representing to a client that an invstment is suitable based on his needs. This specifically has to based on forward looking fundamentals. Reversion to the mean priciples suggests that what has done well in the past will not in the future and vice versa.
History is about the last place you can justify an investment to a board a judge or the disciplinary body that can revoke the charter. Any one in money magagemnt - not a broker - will tell you history only serves to put a company on the radar for your selection process. IF you want to read up on this type "modern porfolio theory" into google
Will someone come forward and say they leased a G35 coupe with a 66% residual? What was the money factor? I'm not buying Kiplingers to see what the Infiniti residuals are.
BMW 330i: $597/mo
G35C: $496/mo
$100 difference. Just wanted to throw some numbers out there. Personally, I lease what I like and don't let residuals make the choice for me. My A4 has a much lower residual than both the G35 or the BMW, but I enjoy the heck out of it.
My 2 cents
Speed
It's a better residual now there is no going back
Then one should be buying outright from the beginning. Leasing for 3 years and then buying is more expensive than buying outright from the beginning.
In the non-premium market, Nissan residuals are moving closer to the perennial leaders Honda & Toyota.
It was ranked number 1 based on performance, luxury, sportiness, value and reliability.
Serious sports sedan enthusiasts recognize inherent limitations of FWD vs RWD. Yes - so if you want a good "value" automobile an Acura is it. Actually the best "value" around is the stripper G35 without leather for $26K for $10K less. If you want to drive the best entry level sports sedan in the world, it's the 3-series.
BTW BMW was given the ALG awards for having the highest residual value of any manufacturer. You can read about it, on their website.
CR is known for mom and pop minvan level reviews of cars they have no business even driving. Most enthusiast would probably ignore CR and look to the true auto mags for opinion before buying. CR is great for people who know nothing other than what people tell them and want a camry.