Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

kyfdx · August 2004

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1- &item=2487311944&category=6334

rickrover · August 2004

I've owned several BMW's, mostly 3 Series, most recently an 01 X5 which just went off lease. In the past when my BMW lease was up I'd either turn it in and pick out a new one or purchase the old one - not this time. I liked the X5, never had a problem with it but grew tired of driving an SUV type vehicle and decided a "sport wagon" would fit my requirements. The 3 series is too small and due to be replaced next year, don't care for the 5 at all.

I'd decided on an Audi A4 Avant Ultrasport - had one on order.

Then I happened upon the Legacy GT wagon, my first test drive was an eye opener. It reminded me of a BMW, steering, handling, power delivery, amenities, material quality, etc.. On the way home from the test drive I started doubting my perception of it - It couldn't have been that good.

When I got home the latest issue of Bimmer magazine was in my mailbox, imagine my suprise when the Bimmer editor had test driven the new Legacy GT at Laguna Seca with a bunch of other cars - here are the comments:

"Driving on public roads tends to reveal less about a car's performance than driving on a fast track like Laguna Seca, but the first day's driving in the hills east of Monterey yielded at least one revelaton:
The Subaru Legacy GT has become a genuine rival to the 3 Series. Not only has Subaru made incredible strides where interior quality is concerned, but the car is fast (250 hp from its turbocharged 2.5-liter flat four) and involving. It's a thoroughly engaging driver's car with precise, neutral handling and perfect steering."

So I wasn't going nuts after all -

Took the GT wagon (manual) for another test drive, confirmed my earlier impressions, signed on the dotted line and cancelled the Audi.

A month later I'm still very satisfied with my choice - waiting till 3k for the first oil change.

billyperks · August 2004

Is there such a car as a C430?
Is that in the Mercedes line?

nbfc260 · August 2004

There is no such car as a C430. If you are talking about the E430 they changed it to an E500 and that is a bigger car.

kyfdx · August 2004

I was just assuming he was talking about the CLK430.. and I didn't even check the Ebay listing close.. I just assumed that was the coupe as well.. Who would have guessed that there was a demand for the C55? Especially, since the old C43 was such a bust before.

You learn something new everyday.. Hey! At least I found one in stock!!

regards,
kyfdx

buddhabman · August 2004

Most of the new AWD cars with 300HP don't have high redlines. 6000-7000 max like a good majority of cars. The STi, the S60/V70R both have normal redlines, I believe the same is true for the S4 db.

Needless to say you probably don't need more than 200-250hp to have great fun in a sports sedan. But as the sports luxury cars get a bit heavier with all the luxury and safety for example the Audi S4 need the benefit of the additional HP.

But this power is tractable, you just need a track to get all tractable power usage. :-)

ryanl1 · August 2004

This board is great with all the knowledge and different opinions of everyone.Some people are more opinionated/emotional than others but that's OK.
When I buy a car I plan to keep it for at least 7 to 10 years...bonus if longer.The Audi was stuck in my head as my first choice for my next car...but I had not done any research/shopping around for 5 years.
I cross shopped almost every single car even though some posters would say "people would never cross shop those cars"...you can always learn something with an open mind.
The Legacy GT opened my eyes at the auto show.The Subaru test drive event was the clincher.
It doesn't matter that the Legay GT is not one of the cars on the header of this forum.Go back and read post #1 and decide for yourself.

Be Happy

buddhabman · August 2004

Rickover - Nice to hear someone who has driven a BMW 3 series does appreciate that the Subarus have greatly improved. Since 1999, the US version Legacy has always been a chassis in search of a motor. They finally refined the whole package.

So now I am lobbying again for the Subaru Legacy GT Limited for inclusion in this topic. This is what Edmunds editors say:

"The Bottom Line: Now a legitimate entrant in the entry-level luxury category, the new Legacy will change how people view the Subaru brand."

But I also think the Volvo S60/V70 R Types should be included. They fall in the same price range and luxury content range.

dhanley · August 2004

Personally, i think it would make more sense, and i said before, to start a tp "is the subaru gt a luxury car?"

If we open the topic, it will just allow others to be considered for includion. Pontiac bonneville, GTO, loaded camries and accords, etc.

I drive a 3 series, and have looked at the subies, and while i have liked some aspect of them i haven't others: really cheap interiors, poor gas mileage, and boomy construction. I haven't looked at a 2005 so i can't ascertain if it's improved, but i wasn't impressed by the "9-2"

dave

billyperks · August 2004

why not add the Kia Amanti and the Sonata GLS.
It is really getting ridiculous on this board.

designman · August 2004

Go on, keep talkin' Subies and you'll get sent to the Gulag Archipelago. You're messin' with the Entry-Level-Luxury-Performance KGB here.

blueguydotcom · August 2004

Entry lux cars come from the BOTTOM of what that brand offers. The G35, 3 series, IS300 and C class are bottom of the barrel for their luxury brands. They get you into a lux brand and from there the brand expects you'll move up. The cruddiest things made by BMW, Infiniti and MB are the 325, IS300 and C.

You can't spice up your top end car and declare it's now entry level lux. Entry level lux indicates there's something more expensive and better higher up to aspire to. Hence the word ENTRY.

As long as the Imprezza and Forester are available from Subaru and there isn't something on par with a 5/E or 7/A8 then it's not a luxury brand. And therefore they can't be selling an entry level lux.

buddhabman · August 2004

"Entry lux cars come from the BOTTOM of what that brand offers. The G35, 3 series, IS300 and C class are bottom of the barrel for their luxury brands. They get you into a lux brand and from there the brand expects you'll move up. The cruddiest things made by BMW, Infiniti and MB are the 325, IS300 and C."

Ok fair enough. By this standard I agree the Legacy GT does not qualify.

So I am off to the new topic "Mid-Sized, Mid-Priced Performance Sedans (20K-50K MSRP Fully Loaded)" ;-)

blueguydotcom · August 2004

It seems like the most logical way to break it down. The 3 series really is the entry level car for the BMW line.

Nobody would call a 30k Subaru - no matter how cool and fast - the entry level vehicle for that brand.

thematrixhasu · August 2004

i just have read through 142 pages of post and your rule about what cars are included is stupid, if every auto magazine in the world considers other cars entry lux than this thread should too for it to be a fair comparison also with that said the TL should be thrown out of this comparison because an RL is not in the class with a S or 7 series or an A8 therefore its entry is an TSX and its definitely sub par; my sister owns one and its not in the entry level. So other cars should be entered but, it wont happen after reading 142 pages i have seen that you are very stubborn about the cars enlisted; even if it is stupid.

cdnpinhead · August 2004

Well. . .

I guess that settles it.

jrock65 · August 2004

Good thing Toyota, Nissan, and Honda rebadged some of their cars into Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura. Or else, we'll only be allowed to talk about mainly European cars in this thread.

m4d_cow · August 2004

okay you know what, were not just talking about the ones listed on the topic, it can be any other brands that pretty much qualifies into the entry luxury category.

but then again i admit that the brand have some effects here, or else id say IS300 will never make it into this category, nor the G35, both due to their crappy interior thats never up to the luxury standards. id take Altezza (the REAL lexus IS) into the Subaru category

riez · August 2004

Can't figure out why so many worry so much about what this boar is about. The title is moderately self explanatory. This board is about SEDANS that are both:

1. Performance-oriented AND
2. Entry-level luxury

So top-of-their line luxury sedans like Acura RL don't qualify. Nor do non-performance sedans like Lexus ES330. And coupes like the G35 coupe or GTO are immediately disqualified.

So some of the best fits that immediately come to mind are sedans like the 325i, G35, and IS300. Then others, like the X-type or C-class, come to mind. Does that mean there will be some gray area, like with the Acura TSX and TL? Sure, but that is part of the fun of trying to compare cars.

kdshapiro · August 2004

Entry level is from the perspective of buyer not the car manufacturer.

billyperks · August 2004

It's the other way around-Manufacturer not the buyer.
Tell you what I am going to shop tomorrow for a Nissan Altima (2.5 S)then take it work and show it to my co-workers and say"look at my new entry level luxury car".
They will probably whisper to themselves "what the hell is he smoking".
KD come on-I know you are very knowlegable when it comes to cars.

kyfdx · August 2004

"Entry lux cars come from the BOTTOM of what that brand offers. The G35, 3 series, IS300 and C class are bottom of the barrel for their luxury brands. They get you into a lux brand and from there the brand expects you'll move up. The cruddiest things made by BMW, Infiniti and MB are the 325, IS300 and C.

You can't spice up your top end car and declare it's now entry level lux. Entry level lux indicates there's something more expensive and better higher up to aspire to. Hence the word ENTRY."

This should be at the top of every page in this discussion.. It doesn't really matter how the Subies, Nissans, etc. compare with these cars, they just don't fit the definition....

regards,
kyfdx

designman · August 2004

Some people just cant handle that Subies are a threat in both price and performance to haughty marques like BMW.

STi challenges the M3 at 20 grand less, Forester XT comes up side the X3, and now the Legacy GT jousts with the 330.

Make all the rules you wantits pedantic. When it comes to comparisons you cant deny the truth. People have x amount to spend and there is x amount to choose from. Talk about the cars and get on with it.

I will say one thing though, it sure is funny listening to all this moaning.

thematrixhasu · August 2004

I believe your post to be ignorant and invalid, I will name five cars that are considered entry lux and are not bottom of what a brand offers and these are still considered entry lux by C&D, Motortrend,Road&Track,Automobilemag,KBB and others but i guess i disregard them and listen to you! lol
Your list should include
Nissan Maxima 3.5 SL
Chrysler 300C
Toyota Avalon XLS
Lincoln LS
Lincoln Town car
and others but i said i would just name five.

But i forgot your definition of entry-lux and the rest of the automotive world is different. And stop contradicting yourself in your post you state:

"Entry lux cars come from the BOTTOM of what that brand offers. The G35, 3 series, IS300 and C class are bottom of the barrel for their luxury brands. They get you into a lux brand and from there the brand expects you'll move up. The cruddiest things made by BMW, Infiniti and MB are the 325, IS300 and C.

but throughout the 142 pages of post you compare TL when TSX is the bottom of the line actually RSX but i give you the benefit of a sedan a few volvos when a S40 is on the same page as a accord and others i understand you want to sound intelligent but to contradict yourself is not.

kyfdx · August 2004

A Lincoln Towncar is "entry-level" luxury? How do you figure that? I won't classify your post as ignorant or invalid.. after all, it is just "your opinion" as is mine.. I'll just disagree with just about everything you said..

What I do agree with:

Lincoln LS.. yes
Acura TSX.. yes
Volvo S40.. yes

Everything else:
NOPE

Also, I'm not trying to "sound intelligent". Am I missing something? Can you hear me?

regards,
kyfdx

kdshapiro · August 2004

Do you really believe the M3-$20K=Sti. Give me a break. Honestly, drive both and then let us know. I saw a 2005 Legacy. I thing it was plain ugly, and wan't impress with the materials. Yes, Subaru has breath-taking performance, but so does and SRT4 at $20K. But I wouldn't mistake it for a BMW.

blueguydotcom · August 2004

just have read through 142 pages of post and your rule about what cars are included is stupid, if every auto magazine in the world considers other cars entry lux than this thread should too for it to be a fair comparison also with that said the TL should be thrown out of this comparison because an RL is not in the class with a S or 7 series or an A8 therefore its entry is an TSX and its definitely sub par;

The RL does indeed compete directly with the 5/A6/E.

blueguydotcom · August 2004

I believe your post to be ignorant and invalid, I will name five cars that are considered entry lux and are not bottom of what a brand offers and these are still considered entry lux by C&D, Motortrend,Road&Track,Automobilemag,KBB and others but i guess i disregard them and listen to you! lol
Your list should include
Nissan Maxima 3.5 SL
Chrysler 300C
Toyota Avalon XLS
Lincoln LS
Lincoln Town car
and others but i said i would just name five.

The LS and the Towncar are part of a luxury brand: Lincoln.

The Avalon is the Toyota Brand, 300C Chysler and Max is a Nissan brand. They are at the top of their respective brands, brands that are marketed and viewed by the buying public as pedestrian.

What about the word "entry" confuses you?

"Entry lux cars come from the BOTTOM of what that brand offers. The G35, 3 series, IS300 and C class are bottom of the barrel for their luxury brands. They get you into a lux brand and from there the brand expects you'll move up. The cruddiest things made by BMW, Infiniti and MB are the 325, IS300 and C.

I wrote that.

but throughout the 142 pages of post you compare TL when TSX is the bottom of the line actually RSX but i give you the benefit of a sedan a few volvos when a S40 is on the same page as a accord and others i understand you want to sound intelligent but to contradict yourself is not.

Ad hominem attack = not cool. Stop insulting others.

thematrixhasu · August 2004

yes but the in the prior post it indicates where the top of the line should compete is the S-class 7 series and A8 and not 5- a6 - e class read the 142 pages then get back to me.

kyfdx · August 2004

142 pages... don't do it..

dhanley · August 2004

"Can't handle"

Very strange language. I hope i never have so much free time that i will need to become emotionally involved with vehicle brands.

dave

thematrixhasu · August 2004

how does a chrysler 300C or an Maxima 3.5 SL or an Avalon XLS fall short of a TSX or an S40 in luxury amenities or performance or class or price. your ideal isms is rediculas but who is C&D or motortrend or any other automotive enthusiast to argue with the great opinion of KYFDX. Dont take it personal its not meant to be i just dont understand after reading all these post on your ideals its contradictory and non-coherent But it is your opinion and you are entitled no matter how absurd or contradictory it may be.

ryanl1 · August 2004

kd you're right entry level luxury/performance is from the perspective of the buyer not the manufacturer and everone's physical impression of a car is so variable.Everyone who's seen the GT love it.A lot of people consider BMW x3/x5 plain ugly.Bungled 6's with old fogie eyebrows.

I say let people talk/compare cars that fit post #1 otherwise sticking one's head in the sand will not help anyone except the ALL KNOWLEDGABLE/ALL CONTROLLING BOARD

kyfdx · August 2004

Go back and read my post... I didn't say they couldn't compete... I just said they don't qualify as entry-level luxury models.... I've never stated that you can't compare the cars, just that they don't fit the definition of:
Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans.

regards,
kyfdx

P.S.: SEDAN... that leaves out the RSX also.

buddhabman · August 2004

Okay KD. M3 minus 20K is less the car that the Sti is. Period. Look, Subaru is quite capable of adding all the luxury that BMW has. They can add 5-10K worth of wool, leather, aluminum, alcantra, Momo, Sparco, Nakamichi NAV, Mcintosh stereos whatever. Very few would buy it at the start, so it's not worth the investment. Subaru is building the brand towards more luxury.

Yes, I have driven both and yes the M3 is super nice, and way better looking IMHO. But if you really had to make a run for your life in a car I would put my butt in a STi. ;-)

Will Subaru ever have a full size luxury car, I doubt it. They will have a larger model than the Legacy, and it will probably have alot of luxury. The crucial car for Subaru now is the new 7-Pass Halifax or Tribeca. That car has to come correct with alot of premium/luxury features and performance. Will they put all the bells and whistles in, I don't know? Can they hell yes. There is a 450HP Subaru motor waiting for a car.

thematrixhasu · August 2004

I like this thread it has the spice that alot of other threads have lacked and P.s. kyfdx i said i gave you the leeway in the rsx read my post over again and look at the part that said," TSX is the bottom of the line actually RSX but i give you the benefit of a sedan" oh yeah "DUH" anyway I ask a question about the opinions of KYFdx and blueguy what are the definitions of a entry lux sedan and what are your definitions of one there is only one write answer one is opinion and one is set by society's standard which makes it factual, lets get to the real nitty-gritty and leave out ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm yea the opinion. and then lets compare. or like someone said lets stick our head in the sand and act like our opinions out weight society's standards, maybe in a dream world or when one of you becomes king of america, oh yeah we live in a democracy sorry.

designman · August 2004

I like this thread it has the spice that a lot of other threads have lacked

Yeah well enjoy it while it lasts because I have to believe the regular forum host is on vacation. When she gets back youre all gonna be crackin rocks on a chain gain. I lobbied for Subie inclusion and got sent to the Gulag. This has been like a major revolt and breakout.

Ye-e-h-a-a-a-a-a-a-a!!! Let errrrrrrrrrip!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Be nice now NICE!!!

;-)

blueguydotcom · August 2004

yes but the in the prior post it indicates where the top of the line should compete is the S-class 7 series and A8 and not 5- a6 - e class read the 142 pages then get back to me.

I mentioned the 5 and e. I wrote 5/E or 7/A. Try again with your nitpicking.

blueguydotcom · August 2004

Entry level luxury.

The entry point to a luxury line. Subuaru is not a luxury line.

BTW, we live in a republic, not a democracy.

kdshapiro · August 2004

The M3 has been named the best GT ever. They are different cars. One is a pocket rocket, the other is interstellar spaceship with luxury. You can't say a pocket rocket is better than an interstellar spaceship with luxury. Different purposes.

But if you believe the Sti is a better car than the M3, I respect your opinion.

thematrixhasu · August 2004

the sti is in no way better than an M3 and blueguy not nitpicking just stating the facts jack. alot of bang for your buck but thats it it falls short everywhere else but performance

ryanl1 · August 2004

Yes fellow comrade I will try to get you re-instated into the politburo

blueguy: I understand where you're coming from.If Timex comes out with a 100k watch is it a luxury brand?Probably not. Is it a luxurious watch? Of course. Does it matter to the purchaser? Depends on the purchaser or the ultimate user.Would a Rolex afficionado look at a Timex? No.

I'll admit even if Hyundai comes out with a car that meets all the above criteria I would still never buy one even if they are more reliable/luxurious.Everyone has they're biases towards certain brands correctly or incorrectly.

This is why the "luxury" brands have to tread carefully if they decide to move downmarket e.g. BMW 1 series,separating Ford from Volvo/Jaguar.
In Canada we have the Acura EL which is a gussied up Civic.So if we rebadge a car and all the cars in the lineup meet a minimum luxury level then we have a "luxury brand".

Good or bad that's what we have.

blueguydotcom · August 2004

I totally agree with you.

I wouldn't say the Scoobie GT is less of a car than a BMW. I intend to drive one when my lease is nearing its end. I want some measure of luxury matched with performance. The badge is not too important to me when buying the car (no american brands or mitsubishi). Neither is the market segment.

Fun, luxury and performance. Reliability would be nice too...especially if I buy the next one.

Heck the prospect of a Mazdaspeed3 hatch with 270 hp, awd and the space of that car has me drooling.

thematrixhasu · August 2004

you can compare much more over at Comparison of Sedans Priced 25,000 to 45,000 thread

dhanley · August 2004

There's no reazson to take the exclusion of a brand as an affront. It doesn't mean that the car might not be as good, it just means it isn't the entry level of a luxury brand, and/or wasn't named by the moderator.

I've at least learned something in this topic, i never even thought of volvos before but there was some interesting data on the s60R posted, i had no idea it got to 60 in 5.5, an had such good performance numbers. I will also look at the CTS which i otherwise might not have really considered. Also the GT. My cousin is lobbying for me to get a GTO and i see no reason to not take a test drive. But, not every car i like has to be in every topic i'm interested in.

buddhabman · August 2004

KD "The M3 has been named the best GT ever." What magazine came up with that tag?

I love the M3, don't get me wrong. But when you say the M3-20K is NE to STi, you are intimating that it would still be better than the STi. That is an opinion I beleive to be false, and hard to justify.

The STi can up the level of interior materials, to the current Legacy standard, plus other extras like NAV and still be under the optioned out price of a 330i. It boggles my mind what Subaru could do with an extra 20K on a STi. Not to mention what an STi Legacy will be like.

My position is that if you add 20K to the STi despite it's detriment in dimensions, the M3 wouldn't be competitive as a small Luxury compact GT. And I mean it' wouldn't be competitive in luxury and God knows it' wouldn't in performance.

Now do I beleive the current STi is better. I beleive it is better fun for the purpose of all out driving. However, if I were single, would I rather hit the town in a STi or a M3 Convertible. Tops down on the M3 baby. ;-)

But if you believe the M3 is a better car than the STi, I respect your opinion.

pat · August 2004

Several pages dedicated to arguing about what it is we're talking about. That's really an argument that the discussion lost its focus and isn't going anywhere productive, ya know?

As many of you know, in order to stop the continuing debate about the debates, I created a list of what is topical here - all of you had input, but I made the decision.

The list (pat Mar 19, 2004 6:34pm):

Acura TSX and TL
Audi A4
BMW 3-Series
Cadillac CTS
Infiniti G35 and maybe I35
Jaguar X-Type
Lexus IS 300 and maybe ES 330
Mercedes-Benz C-Class
Saab 9-3 and 9-5
Volvo S60/S60R and maybe S40

I see a couple of you have started other discussions to cover some of the bases not covered in that list. That's great ... maybe they will help us be able to talk about the cars themselves more often than we talk about which cars we are talking about.

designman · August 2004

"Do you really believe the M3-$20K=Sti. Give me a break. Honestly, drive both and then let us know. "

Kd I haven't driven the STi but have driven the WRX, M3 and 330i. Let me tell you something, there are some people who are turned on by performance and don't need or want what is typically known as "luxury". It doesn't seem like this is your profile so I don't expect you to understand this.

When a performance driver gets going, the only things that matter are go, stop, turn the thrill of the roller coaster. Stereos, fit n' finish, leather all this stuff doesn't mean squat. To this kind of driver these Subies deliver some serious bang for the buckperformance for a HELLUVA lot less. To get the performance of both WRX and STi in a BMW you HAVE to go to the 330 perf pack/M3 respectively and dish out the cash.

On the "luxury" aspect I've said this elsewhere. Some people classify luxury by way of butt-pampering characteristics. The thrill seeking driver sees naked performance as a luxury in itself. This is why people are willing to pay ransom's for Porsches that historically have had interiors on the level of military Jeeps. Does this disqualify Porsches as luxury cars? Not in my book. Do "econobox" characteristics detract from performance? It merely puts it into the dubious "entry-level" category. Keep denying this.

Now kd, I have to ask you, have YOU driven the cars in question? Doesn't matter though I think I know what you expect from a "luxury" performance car, and I don't expect anyone who is thoroughly happy with a 330i to understand my points.

kdshapiro · August 2004

I understand your point, but this topic is titled Entry Level Performance Sedans, not Value Oriented Performance Cars. I agree to some people it's how fast to 60, how does it turn, what is the traction, and they don't care about any modicum of leather or wood. Others want the leather and trim.

I could have easily got the EVO or STi as could all of us. But that is not in our target frame of reference, or else we'd all be on the Subie board, telling everyone our lastest conquer with our Sti.

There is no one better car. Car manufacturers design goals include a number compromises, your purchasing goals want to minimize the compromises or trade-offs and maximize the priorities. Aspects might include finances, looks, luxury, reliability, dealer service, gas mileage etc.
So you can't really say car a is better then car b in an absolute sense.

This is not about BMW vs the world. It's about saying an M3 and Sti have as much in common as a Lexus ES and Dodge SRT4.

pat · August 2004

Anybody want to talk about the vehicles in the topic list?

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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