Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

blueguydotcom · November 2004

The key in every purchase for me is one question: will a 19 year old SDSU student from a raisin farm in Fresno think this is cool?

If the purchase doesn't meet that criteria, it's not getting made.

If ya believe that, I've got a seaside San Diego home to sell you for 100k.

wco81 · November 2004

You can't underestimate the p***y magnet factor.

BTW, the new BMW 3-series will be in Gran Turismo 4 for the Playstation 2. People can see the cars in the game well before they're available for sale in the US.

evilangel · November 2004

Thank you jrock65 for the valuable information. From the information, i can tell why most people would lease a BMW or a MBZ because both company are offering programs to support customers in leasing. I am glad that MBZ offered me 60% residual on my 39months lease term. If i've bought the car and sell it in 3 years, i will get a bigger hit.

I've never heard of any Acura going close to invoice, you must have good negotiation skills to do that. GOOD JOB!!!

jrock65 · November 2004

I can see why the 325i is so much more popular over the 330i. A well-equipped 325i is $36,000, while the 330i equipped in the exact same way is $42,000. That's an increase of $6000 for some more horses.

The 325i does feel quite underpowered though.

For more horses at that price point and similar features, I guess you could go with the $35,000 G35.

kyfdx · November 2004

By the time you put everything on the 325i that comes standard on the 330i, the difference is more like $4000.. But, still substantial..

If you can live without some of the extras, of course the difference is $6K... A new '05 325i with no options has an MSRP of $30K.

riez · November 2004

jrock & kyfdx... It was for those reasons I went with an Lexus IS300 5-speed manual. Cost less than a similarly equipped 325i (IS has better standard equipment) plus better warranty and had some other features I wanted which you can't get on a 325i or 330i (e.g., LSD). The 325i is rather expensive for what you get.

kyfdx · November 2004

Can't argue with that.. but, almost any new BMW is expensive for what you get.. That is included.. kind of like a "mandatory" option.

I like the IS300 and almost bought one... but, I decided to get a slightly used 3-series instead. Since my wife drives it, it really wouldn't have mattered that much.. but, when the blue moon comes around and I get to drive.. I'm glad I did.

fedlawman · November 2004

Anyone seriously considering a car in this segment cannot make a fully informed decision without at least test-driving the 325i first. It's the benchmark - the 50/50 sport/luxury mix. I believe that to purchase another car in this segment (IS300, G35, etc.) is to basically choose something that is 60/40, 35/75, etc. as compared to the 325i.

BTW, I saw the '05 G35 at the Auto show last weekend and it's the one I'd choose if was shopping this segment today. With 298 HP, 6-speed MT, and nicely-updated interior quality, how can any other $30,000ish car compete?

As for the price difference between the 325i and 330i, I think the 325i is the better choice. You can order it with fewer options, and if you don't think it's quick enough, you can add a Conforti chip and CAI for a few hundred dollars and make it perform within a hair of a 330i.

'Brian
(still searching for that perfect '89 325is)

kyfdx · November 2004

I'm waffling.. '91 318is is way up there.. but, my ten-year-old just loves the 318ti.. I personally think it is kind of homely, but looks rank very low on my list..

jrock65 · November 2004

On bmwusa.com, I equipped the cars in the following way (using the base TL as the "features" benchmark):

325i (metallic paint, premium package, auto, heated seats, xenon, premium sound): $35,920

330i (metallic paint, premium package, auto transmission, heated seats, xenon): $41,545

Difference of about $5600.

Equipped in that way, what does the 330i have over the 325i other than horses and different rims?

Maybe I'm missing something.

kyfdx · November 2004

Leather... in the 330i.. included in premium package.. still $1450 extra in the 325i.. that is the first thing that pops up, but that knocks it down to about $4K..

I might have missed something small other than that.. but, that is the main thing..

EDIT.. also, if you add the sport package, price gets closer by a few more hundred, as the sport suspension is standard in the 330i.

jrock65 · November 2004

Good catch.

Thought leather was part of the premium package for the 325i.

If you include leather, the 325i price becomes $37,370, about $4000 less than the 330i, as you pointed out.

kyfdx · November 2004

Yeah... I only obsessed about buying one for over a year... You wouldn't believe the crap that is floating around in my head.. Even a year later, I can't let it go... that is why I am still here....lol

shipo · November 2004

Another thing that comes to mind is that the 330i has a larger more substantial transmission (at least in three pedal form) and larger more substantial brakes.

Best Regards,
Shipo

kyfdx · November 2004

yeah, yeah.. and the aerokit on the sport package..

and, those cool M68 wheels w/sport pkg.

225 HP... That is mostly what you are paying $4K for.. It makes a big difference.. but, if you don't have the money, you can live without it.. it is a great car, either way.

regards,
kyfdx

kyfdx · November 2004

Finally saw a 530i sport with those type 42 wheels... I am really glad they won't fit my car... amazing..

fedlawman · November 2004

Yeah, the 318is is a terrific, lightweight, tossable sedan. It just doesn't have the performance potential of a lightly modded (chip, IHE) 2.5L.

The ti is ugly enough to me to be a deal-breaker...

mechrad1 · November 2004

I own a 2004 tl and test drove a 2005 g35x. I would like to give my opinions of the two cars. The new G is a rocket, blows the doors off the tl at low end accel. The G is I believe a little nicer inside with more creature comforts in the premium package. tilt and telescoping steering electric is very nice to have. the ease of use of the non-key is great. The wood trim is interesting inside. I am a huge wood guy, but this wood is not as shiny or good looking as others, looks cheap. I hope M does better.

On the tl we are missing a few creature comforts like the electric steering wheel and automatic lights. The tl looks in my opinion nicer on the outside. The tl has again in my opinion the worthless voice activation system which gets the request right about 50 percent of time. All in all these 2 cars are very close. The awd of the g would probably make me buy it if I was in the market at this time. Price however will certainly be higher on the g.

Bill

m4d_cow · November 2004

"BTW, I saw the '05 G35 at the Auto show last weekend and it's the one I'd choose if was shopping this segment today. With 298 HP, 6-speed MT, and nicely-updated interior quality"

did they fix the overly firm leather seats as well?? i heard they upgraded the interior materials as well, though im guessing not by much...

wco81 · November 2004

Is there much discounting on either of the 3 series these days?

Or are people even paying over MSRP?

How likely is it to get the car exactly configured as you want? Or like other imports, do people tend to end up with whatever is on hand and what kind of deal they can get on it?

tim_hooligan · November 2004

Hi all,

My A4 just got totalled, so now I'm scrambling to find a replacement car. I've pretty much narrowed down to the G35 and TL. I'd personally love a G35 coupe 6-speed. That would be too perfect. But, this car also has to be my commuter and I drive > 75 miles/day. Also, I live around DC so I can't get by for a couple weeks with RWD only. So, this makes the TL my first choice. Trust me, I'd love to have AWD or even RWD, but it's just not really a suitable choice. FWD does have its drawbacks, but I think it'll serve my purposes well.

I'm going to go ahead and check out the 2005 G35 too...they supposedly improved the leather, among other things.

Otherwise, I can't really think of any other choices at this point! (and the wife said I can have a 6-speed if I get the TL. sounds fair!)

kominsky · November 2004

You might want to take a glance at the "BMW 3-Series: Prices Paid & Buying Experience" board to see what kind of discounts are currently available. I believe $1K - $1.5K off MSRP is reasonable.

As for configuration, you can order your car exactly as you want it. When I was looking for my car, I couldn't find what I wanted, so I ordered mine. The order process was very easy. It took 7 weeks from order to delivery.

shipo · November 2004

"Also, I live around DC so I can't get by for a couple weeks with RWD only."

Ummm, why not?

I live in New Hampshire and drive a 530i all winter (in fact, it's snowing right now ;-), and I'm about to head out to run some errands). I simply invested $1,000 in a set of winter wheels shod with Michelin Arctic Alpin tires and even though we had just shy of ten feet of snow two winters ago, my car did not miss a single day of driving and easily a match for any FWD or even AWD car that didn't have winter tires on it too.

Yeah, I know that it's kind of a pain to have to swap rubber twice a year, but that way you don't have to compromise on the car that you want to drive.

Best Regards,
Shipo

jasonj75 · November 2004

Having owned an M3 *RIP* and 325 through two DC and a handful of Utah winters I will whole heatedly agree with Shipo...

Not once has the 325 (all seasons w/ LSD) let me down, and only once have I not been able to get where I wanted to go in the M3 (and that was my fault - car was wearing Z-rated tires at the time).

If FWD makes you feel more comfortable then don't let us stop you, but dismissing a modern traction controlled, LSD equipped, RWD vehicle because of some snow in February is hooey.

tim_hooligan · November 2004

I understand that tires make a large difference in performance during snowy times. My main concern is just the sheer distance I have to drive in the snow. I'm still under the impression that RWD, even with snow tires and traction control, is still not good on snow. My neighbors all have 325i's, G35's, M3s, and E-classes. The majority have advised NOT driving on snow in RWD, even with snows...mostly because they couldn't make it up the hill to get out of my 'hood. (it's a big one).

oh well. I'll make the wife stay home and just take the 4runner. yeeee ha!

nightmare = ANY car with summer tires + snow

shipo · November 2004

I'm not sure what you mean by "sheer distance", but I don't think distance has any relevance to the discussion. I have over 20 years of FWD driving under my belt in addition to my 15 years of RWD driving (most of it in snow country), and of our current three cars (2-FWD & 1-RWD), I'll choose the BMW over the other two when it comes to any trip in the snow, short or long. In my case, I live 40 miles or so north of Boston, however, I have clients down in the NYC area and make the trip at least once a month (some months are more like 4 trips), and unless I have some specific reason (like taking the kids who like to watch movies while on long trips), it'll be the 530i every time.

FWIW, I used to be a FWD/AWD bigot; that is until I put winter tires on my car in 2002. Prior to that, I was convinced that RWD simply required too much work to drive safely in the slippery stuff. When I did finally break down and get the winter tires, I was simply astounded at the difference. That car is now (by far) the easiest car to drive in the snow that I have ever driven.

Best Regards,
Shipo

tim_hooligan · November 2004

I'm not sure what you mean by "sheer distance", but I don't think distance has any relevance to the discussion.

Sure it does. By sheer distance I am calculating risk based on law of averages, % risk, and variable road conditions.

For example, I could make it one mile up the road in my Audi with Z-rated summer tires. however, I would NEVER drive any further since odds dictate that my minimal traction would eventually cause me to lose control and crash.

Anyways, I'm way off topic now. Just glad to hear RWD is usable in snow since I'm currently an AWD/FWD bigot.

Now that you mention that, I might be heading to the Infiniti dealer to get a nice G35 coupe 6-speed. That car is amazing. Just have to convice the wife that the G35c is better than the TL. That'll be harder than driving uphill with RWD and summer tires.

shipo · November 2004

"Just have to convice the wife that the G35c is better than the TL. That'll be harder than driving uphill with RWD and summer tires."

Yikes! Been there, done that, got the Tee Shirt! In my experience, a car with RWD and summer performance tires becomes practically undrivable with something like .00001" of snow on the road if there is anything more than a .5 degree incline. Oh well, enjoy your TL. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

fedlawman · November 2004

I didn't notice any problem with the seats, though I only sat in it for a few minutes.

golfnut5 · November 2004

Several people have complained about the seats being uncomfortable on the drivers right side due to the seat controls being on top of the seat edge. On long drives this apparently can make your right thigh sore. Does anybody know if this problem has been corrected in the 2005 G 35 Sedan?

dhanley · November 2004

Had no problem on unsalted hilly wisconsin roads.

RWD & snows > ( FWD | AWD ) & all_seasons

riez · November 2004

No matter what you drive (AWD, 4WD, FWD, RWD), your car will benefit from using dedicated snow tires. One reason the more driving-serious Europeans drive about 75% summer/winter tires vs only 25% all-season tires. Percentages reversed in USA.

Is fascinating that so many Americans will spend $30-50K on a sport sedan but then drive on mediocre all-season tires. All that separates you and the road is a small contact patch of rubber. Buy the best tires. That means dedicated summer (really 3-season) tires and dedicated winter tires.

Key to safe winter driving is driving skill. Traction is reduced. Modify your driving habits. Select the right gear. Apply the throttle differently. Take things slower.

Nothing used to bring a bigger smile to my face more in winter than driving my RWD '97 Camaro with snow tires and seeing all the SUVs in the ditch during a snow storm because their foolish driver thought they were invulnerable to winter conditions. They would barrel past me on interstate at 70 mph while I'm doing 55 mph. Then down road I pass 'em while they dig out of a snow bank.

wco81 · November 2004

What do you guys do, keep a set of wheels with summer and winter tires?

Then have them swapped out between season?

Man I'm glad I live in CA.

shipo · November 2004

Yes, I have a set of inexpensive winter wheels (Borbet Type "E") with a set of Michelin Arctic Alpin tires mounted on them. I put them on in November and usually take them off in March or April.

"Man I'm glad I live in CA."

Hmmm, the cost of my winter set is less than a fifth of the extra taxes that I'd be paying per year if I lived in California, that and my 1,500 square foot basement has LOTS of space to store a set if tires. Man I'm glad I live in New Hampshire. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

riez · November 2004

Last weekend I put a set of Bridgestone Blizzak WS-50 205/55R16 91Q tires on my wife's IS300 SportCross (wagon). Bought 'em thru the Tire Rack. Part of their IS300 package: $800 for tires ($105/t) & alloy wheels ($95/w) plus $77.40 for freight and then a final $20 at installation. Grand total of $899.40.

Had the four tires/wheels shipped directly to one of the participating Tire Rack installers in Omaha, NE (T.O. Haas). Very easy to order. No problems with installation. Worked like a charm.

I'm going to put on a set of snow tires for my '04 IS300 sedan. I'm still deciding. Looking at Dunlop Snow Sport M3s or Michelin Arctic Alpin. I'll likely make my mind up this week.

Don't forget that taller, narrower winter tires work best. So for me that means going from 17 inch to 16 inch tires.

shipo · November 2004

I really like the Arctic Alpin tires (LOTS of grip in the slippery stuff, quiet on dry pavement), that said, given their 100 mph limit, I'm probably inclined to spend an extra $20 or so per tire next time and buy something like the Michelin Pilot Alpin PA2 tires. Yeah, yeah, I know, I live in New England and cannot REALLY use a tire with a higher speed rating all that often, that said, last winter on one of my trips to NYC, I was on the Mass Pike tooling along with a group of about 6 cars at about 100 when another group of about 10 cars caught us and passed us. The cars in my group accelerated and joined the larger group, that is, except me. :-(

Best Regards,
Shipo

paule · November 2004

"Hmmm, the cost of my winter set is less than a fifth of the extra taxes that I'd be paying per year if I lived in California, that and my 1,500 square foot basement has LOTS of space to store a set if tires. Man I'm glad I live in New Hampshire. ;-)"

LOL. You got me on that one, Shipo. Of course, I'm originally from NH so I may find that a little more amusing than most people. Also, my wife is from CA

. Hence why I have to buy her an AWD car (xi) AND equip it with Blizzaks.
I have read previously that a RWD car is easier to drive UP a hill than a FWD car equipped with comparable tires due to the weight shift to the rear.
You may want to consider that in your decision.

shipo · November 2004

Oddly enough, my wife is from California as well. This whole winter thing is still a little new to her, even after living in the NYC metro area for over a dozen years and now our third winter in NH. Me, I originally hail from Michigan although I too lived in CA for several years. In the end, I had to move back up north, I missed winter too much and weekend visits up to Mammoth just didn't give me enough of a fix. ;-)

Regarding UP hill in a RWD car, yes, I believe that depending upon the situation it is easier, assuming you can maintain enough momentum to keep the front wheels rolling fast enough to allow you enough steerage to correct for the resultant fish-tailing. Yikes, what a sentence (my Mom was an english teacher). :-/ That said, of all the cars that I've ever owned, my hill climbing champ was indeed a car setup in the FWD configuration, my 1982 Audi 4000. Talk about low-tech FWD! How on earth could that have been my best climber? Simple, in reverse. ;-) I was on my way to an assignation which included an almost empty rental ski condo, a hot fire and good food and wine, up in Boyne City, MI and all that stood between me and Valhalla was a VERY steep, slippery, snow and ice covered dirt road. After several attempts to climb the hill nose first, I sat at the bottom for a few minutes and thought about the situation logically. I popped it in reverse, and climbed that hill with absolutely no problem.

When I pulled up in front of the condo she came out and asked, "How in the hell did you get your car up here? I needed to park in town and bum a ride from somebody with a Jeep."

I don't think I ever actually confessed to her that I did it in reverse. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

m4d_cow · November 2004

hmm... have you considered g35x? its got awd for sure

and no belive me you dont want summer tires in heavy snow, it almost got me killed once

though i dont know how much it snows in DC, but it cant be worse than minneapolis right?

shipo · November 2004

As Sonny Elliot (sp?), the old Weatherman from Detroit used to say, the folks in the DC area get lots of "Frizzle" (freezing rain and drizzle), "Slice" (slush that then freezes to ice), and "Slow" (sleet and snow mixture). Speaking stictly for myself, I'd rather drive in a good old fashioned Minneapolis Snow storm anyday compared to a DC "Slow" storm. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

designman · November 2004

Alright, I have to throw in two cents to keep this place honest.

I used to live in 10,000 feet up in the Colorado Rockies. At first I was intimidated by the thought of snow storms and compromises with mobility. Then I quickly realized that the snow crews are nothing like NYC areas where you sometimes have to wait a day to have roads cleared. In dem dere mountains snow barely had a chance to touch the ground before they would clear the roads (the more populated areas anyway). My brother lived in Montreal and its pretty much the same way. So it seems to me that ones daily conditions play a role when considering winter driving equipment. If you can whisk your way onto clear roads and highway, the risk of getting marooned is considerably lower.

I often find myself on lots of hills with plenty of deep stuff and/or ice. I know a thing or two about getting by with two wheels, but nothing beats AWD in snownothing. Never even came close to having a snag. You have to use more skill and savvy with the others, like taking circuitous routes home, maintaining momentum into a hill or driving uphill backwards. Not many people would think of these things.

I agree that all-season tires are not the way to go with RWD and FWD. They have mostly summer-tire characteristics and I would only use them with AWD. Even then, they compromise traction, braking and handling in snow.

Bottom line here. Driving in snow with RWD and FWD is like jogging with Florsheim wingtips. Sure, you can do it. But a G35x, 325xi or anything else like this is a great choice.

Shipo, your Mom should be proud of youI see nothing wrong with that sentence. I would imagine however that she wouldnt approve of your 100 mph jaunts ;-)

You CA people must me TOTALLY bored with this stuff. Questiondoes Santa Claus go to places like San Diego? Indeed, I envy you.

kyfdx · November 2004

I have them on my wife's car.. The handling is incredible.. I'm sure you give up some snow traction to a Q-rated tire, but she never came close to getting stuck last year... If we drove in heavy snow frequently, I might have a different opinion, but I recommend the V-rated enthusiastically.. (we have Goodyears).

regards,
kyfdx

kyfdx · November 2004

Traction:

1) AWD w/all-seasons
2) FWD w/winter tires
3) RWD w/winter tires
4) FWD w/all-seasons
5) RWD w/all-seasons

Handling/Stopping:

ANY car with winter tires over any other car (even AWD) with all-seasons.

No two-wheel drive car has the traction of an AWD, even with winter tires... But, if you want to do it all...

regards,
kyfdx

shipo · November 2004

Hmmm, I gotta disagree with you about some if this. I regularly drive two FWD cars and one RWD car shod with winter tires, and I think that there is little comparison, the RWD car seems to have significantly better traction in all driving regimens. So, based upon that, I would suggest a slight change to your chart for traction (I assume we are only talking about acceleration here):

1) AWD w/Winter Tires
2) AWD w/All-Season Tires*
3) RWD w/Winter Tires*
4) FWD w/Winter Tires
5) FWD w/All-Season Tires
6) RWD w/All-Season Tires

* I'm not completely convinced that the AWD car with All-Seasons would be of any advantage over the RWD car with winter tires.

Then again there are the issues of handling and braking, and if I remember the results of the side-by-side test performed by an auto magazine several years ago using cars as nearly matched as possible (MB E320 4-Matic, MB E320 RWD, Audi A6 Quattro, Audi A6 FWD) the results shifted more in favor of the Winter tire shod RWD car. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, in the braking department, the RWD car easily won due to its inherently more neutral front/rear weight distribution (especially compared to the FWD A6) combined with its (relatively) lighter weight (compared to the two AWD cars).

Personally, I am willing to give up some "go power" to gain some "stop power", hence my comment that I believe that a RWD car (especially one with a near neutral weight distribution) shod with winter tires offers the best driving experience for winter driving. That said, if I lived in a mountainous area such as the Rockies, I would certainly opt for the AWD car simply because on a steep enough hill, the FWD/RWD car simply ain't gonna start moving from a standing stop while the AWD car will move away from the stop with relative aplomb. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

designman · November 2004

Why do you have 5 & 6 flip-flopped in comparison to 3 & 4? Is this what the magazine test indicated? It seems to suggest this in your manner of reference but it's not quite clear, and at the same time curious.

tim_hooligan · November 2004

I never really expected this would stray so far off topic, but I guess you can expect this discussion this time of year.

Anyways, I now believe it is possible to drive uphill on snow in summer tires, because the wife actually likes the G35 family. Not so much the sedan (its looks aren't the best, IMO), but the coupe. I will admit that driving a RWD coupe/sedan is just a completely different experience from a FWD. In this case, different is much better. The handling, acceleration, and braking are all a world better.

I am aware of the G35x, but I was really hoping to get the 6-speed. Of course, the wife wandered over to the FX35 and I knew it was all over. Fortunately, this is MY car so there's a chance that I will win this battle.

The dealer had some '05 G35x's in stock, but I didn't get a chance to see one or drive one. The interior is supposed to be up in quality now vs. the 04's. Unfortunately, the 6-speed won't be around until late January or February...and I need a car NOW since mine is totalled.

Thanks for all the comments on winter tires and such. I'm paying cash for the car anyways, so I might as well just take $1000 and get a quality set of winter tires. Then I can run summer/winters and have it all. Geeze, having your cake AND eat it too...say it ain't so!

-tim

williamhill · November 2004

I have two sets of winter tires also for both cars. I dont mind the trouble of switching them and spending $1k for a set of spare wheels n winter tires. Well it keeps you out of trouble, eventhough they still spin a little bit but not as often. I have to stay with my (the only/last) insurance company (some accidents before)

And I also put some heavy stuff in the trunk, so if the FWDer has an engine on top of their front wheels, I got my small loaded fridge on the top of my rear wheels. well it works.! It does help traction and a happy 20-35 mph on snow. lol

pg48477 · November 2004

I just came back from the dealer they had 2005g35x. Did not get a chance to drive it but spend some time in the car. I do find that seat controls are in the wrong spot, but the seat is very comfortable both driver and passenger. Even though interior design is pretty much the same as 04, materials used are much better. Gages are still orange but way better looking than 04 and does not look at all like the one in Altima. Before interior was the only thing in the way of buying a car and I was leaning more towards TL, but now I think G is the one. Have to convince my wife to get a 6MT and the deal is done.

kyfdx · November 2004

Well.. I was trying to show there is a big difference between "go power" and "stop/turn" power..

I've had four AWDs with three different AWD/4WD systems, and everyone of them had better traction (go power) with all-seasons than any 2WD car I've driven with winter tires, including my current one..

And although I would rather have RWD/winters than FWD/winters for the overall handling experience (stop/turn/go power), if I am considering only traction (go power), I still have to go with the FWD.

I will grant that the type of car makes a difference though.. A large car with a long wheelbase loses some of the traction advantage that FWD provides, by moving more of the weight off the front wheels.. My old '82 Accord hatchback with 63-64% of the weight over the front wheels would leave any RWD car spinning its wheels... A new TL or ES300 would have much less advantage over a 5-series or GS300.

regards,
kyfdx

tim_hooligan · November 2004

Everything I've heard so far says that the interior of the G35 is much improved for 2005...but the sticky issue is that the 6-speeds won't be coming out until late January or early February. Since my car is totalled, I am in need of a car very very soon. Puts me in quite the pickle. I don't really want to settle for an 04, but I can't think of any other choice...besides renting a car until that time (ouch $$$!).]

I do agree the placement for the seat adjustment is wrong, but the seats are quite comfortable (if you are not tooo wide in the backside).

I suppose I could settle with the automatic '05, or even an 04 6-speed, but something tells me I'll regret it. On the other hand, aren't the 04's going for well under invoice now??? There's quite a few things I can spend $3-$4k on...

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