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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • draknaddraknad Posts: 39
    BMW has always been way behind in engine power.
    But for some reason, everyone seems to ignore the weak engine, overpriced facts.
    Perhaps magazine numbers show BMW's with descent acceleration, but
    184 hp, 225hp is still < (300hp or 255hp).
    but both cost $30,000.
    I think BMW's have been overhyped, especially by all magazine reviews.
    Does a BMW really peform/feel better then a more powerful G35?
    I don't think so.
    horsepower is part of performance, and BMW's have been way weak for
    a long time, that's a fact.
    if anyone's looked at hp numbers, BMW 3's have been under 200hp for years.
    (3 years ago, 330 finally made it above 200hp)
    $30,000 for < 200hp...??

    CTS 3.6L 255hp.
  • draknaddraknad Posts: 39
    2000
    323 170 hp, 181 lbft (26,250)
    328 193 hp, 206 lbft (30,220)

    2001 - 2005
    325 184 hp, 175 lbft (29,300)
    330 225 hp, 214 lbft (31, 050)

    G35 260 hp, 260 lbft (27,646)
    TL (3.2) 270 hp, 238 lbft (33,650)
    CTS (3.6) 255 hp, 252 lbft (32,440)


    2006
    325 215 hp, 185 lbft (30,300)
    330 255 hp, 220 lbft (36,300)

    G35 298 hp, 260 lbft (30,750)
    TL (3.2) 270 hp, 238 lbft (33,100)
    CTS (3.6) 255 hp, 252 lbft (32,440)
    IS (3.5) 300 hp (~30K)

    BMW 3's are underpowered, overpriced
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    BMW has always been way behind in engine power.
    But for some reason, everyone seems to ignore the weak engine, overpriced facts.


    Obviously you're a bmw hater and you've not really driven one. HP means nothing if the cars don't really compare when driven. How the blazes can a 300 hp G35 not outrun a 330i performance package with its "weak" 235 hp engine? For one second step back from your stats and actually experience the two.

    Perhaps magazine numbers show BMW's with descent acceleration, but
    184 hp, 225hp is still < (300hp or 255hp). but both cost $30,000. I think BMW's have been overhyped, especially by all magazine reviews. Does a BMW really peform/feel better then a more powerful G35?


    you may not think so, but you've not driven them apparently. Even people who opt for a G35 will admit the cars have distinctly different personalities.

    I don't think so. horsepower is part of performance, and BMW's have been way weak for a long time, that's a fact. if anyone's looked at hp numbers, BMW 3's have been under 200hp for years. (3 years ago, 330 finally made it above 200hp) $30,000 for < 200hp...?? CTS 3.6L 255hp.

    The 2001 330i is over 200 hp - 225 to be exact. at that time there wasn't any real competition for the 3 series (IS300 had already floundered). In 2003 the G35 arrived and finally put some heat on the 3 series. The TL's sold well and will continue to without hurting BMW as it's not aimed at the same kinda driver. MB's never been big on power and Audi wasn't all that either. Only over the last 3 years has HP become a big issue (many would point to the G35 as the impetus for this).

    Actually drive the cars, then comment on if it makes a difference that Caddy's CTS makes 255 hp or Infiniti's G pulls 298. Once ya drive them you'll see it's not all about the engine numbers. Audi's 3300 lb A3 with automatic (DSG) and a 2 liter 200 hp engine runs 6.2-6.3 0-60 dashes...in 2003 the 260 hp automatic G35 with the 3.5 VQ ran 6.2-6.3 0-60 dashes. Obviously, there's more to acceleration than a big engine.
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    Bought my wife a TL and I love the car, and love how fast it is, now it's time for me to buy my car and I am in a nice delima. I don't want two TLs in the garage, so it's between a G35 coupe, or a BMW M3 or 330Ci. The price of the M3 seems way out of line, but the 330Ci is reasonable as well as the G35, but they are all very different cars. I live near San Francisco and do a lot of freeway driving to the TL makes a lot of sense. The G35 is distinct (BMWs are all over the place) there are not many on the road.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    blueguy is spot on. HP means nothing is the car can't manage it or the torque curve is doesn't support the cars personality.

    You should do yourself a favor and take an E90 330 out for a long drive on a windy road. Then come back and say the car is underpowered, overpriced and doesn't handle well.

    While I'm not suggesting you automatically like BMW because it's a BMW, doing some research never hurts. For starters here's a first drive review by Edmunds on the new E90 330. The title is: The Next 3 Is Still the One to Beat

    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/bmw/3series/100530523/roadtestarticle.html?articleId=10467- - 0
  • draknaddraknad Posts: 39
    I'll point to one of your comments.
    g35 vs 330.
    not direct comparison, but the CTS V and STS V both finish
    the Nurburgring faster then BMW's, but yet no one seems to notice,
    and still consider BMW's as better performance. Performance means
    numbers, that means results at a track.
    Where you find G35 outrunning 330? outrunning 0-60 or at a track?
    Performance, I'm thinking numbers, not feel.
    I think feel, is opinion, and owners usually report "I like" the feel of their own cars.
    Feel is harder to convert to $ value.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    1. Actually the new upcoming 550 will just about eat the CTS-V/STS-V for lunch. While it's true the CTS-V beat the old 540 at the track. There was never any head to head comparison, only the publicity released by Cadillac.

    2. Actually if you ever drove a BMW you would understand why it's very easy to convert feel to $. In addition, you have to pay $$$ to feed that thirsty 3.5L G35 engine.
  • Conspiracy! All car rags throughout the world are paid off by BMW to shovel schlock to the masses! I new I was missin' something. :P
  • draknaddraknad Posts: 39
    G35: 19/26
    330i: 19/27
    CTS: 17/27

    So it doesn't seem gas milage is much a factor for perf sedan car choice.
  • albanytimalbanytim Posts: 18
    Not sure about where you live, but here in the Northeastern US diesel is too inconvenient. I was driving a rental truck last week in the Philly area and drove by 5 or 6 gas stations before we found one that sold diesel.
  • draknaddraknad Posts: 39
    I wonder if there really is a way to find car review vs corporation incentives.
    my opinion:
    car&driver comparisons:
    1: german 2: japan 3: US last place: usually jaguar.
    I don't need to read to C&D comparison reviews to know results.
    (recent 1-2 yrs, japans swapped with german)

    I think car magazine/press reviews effect our perf sedan car choices too much, with too much bias.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    EPA gas mileage estimate testing are out of date. The EPA even says so themselves. I got 33 mpg cruising at 80 mpg on the highway in my 3er.

    "I think car magazine/press reviews effect our perf sedan car choices too much, with too much bias."

    They don't effect my choices, as a matter of fact, I can't think of one person who was ever swayed by a review in a magazine. For the most part the test drives speak for themselves.

    The reviews are nice to have as tie-breakers.

    But you don't like a BMW, well don't get one.
  • Ever notice why the ratings for all cars are so high over in the consumer reviews no matter what the model or make? People shopped, liked, and bought what they saw and were very happy with it. This to me is a strong indicator that through the rag "conspiracy," quite a few people are not sheep. You prefer power, others balance. Still others prefer the "xyz."

    A big rating factor that needs to be addressed in this thread is real world usability. Are any of us renting track time? Are we taking these vehicles over 8/10ths? Or have the skill to? Back road driving doesn't count.

    I have a Pathfinder with the Q4 engine in it and, although voted one on of the best v6's ever made, it vibrates too much for me and the g35 is worse. That, I think is why BMW is so succesful. They build cars that carve a sweet esse curve, and take the wife to a nice dinner with a quite smooth ride...and haul buttocks. That is huge.

    C&D top ten break down
    4/10 Domestic
    4/10 Japanese
    2/10 German
    1/10 People who don't like BMW
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    G35: 19/26
    330i: 19/27
    CTS: 17/27


    Wow, where do you dig up false stats? An e90 330i 6 mt is a 20/30 mpg car. e46 330i 6 mt was a 21/30 mpg car on the sticker.

    Heck even with a crummy automatic an e90 330i pulls 21/29:

    http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/3/2006330isedan/techdata.htm

    Maybe you should find a better source for stats...

    as KD pointed out, strangely, BMWs when pushed above legal limits get even better MPG. Running an average speed of 87 from SF to San Diego I got over 30 mpg in my e46. Many people simply refuse to believe it. It does fly in the face of physics that a car running 100 mph can get 29-30 mpg. Voodoo again I guess.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    When I had my (barely) broken in 530i on the Autobahn in Germany a couple of years ago I was delighted to discover that it was getting 24 miles to the gallon at speeds well in excess of 120 mph (especially considering that it cost nearly $100 to fill it up). Funny thing, many cars have their sweet spot for mileage sitting between 45 and 55 mph, the two BMWs that I've had were more like 75 to 85 mph. Go figure.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • potemkinpotemkin Posts: 196
    My $0.02.

    The appeal of BMWs might be because not everyone is that enamored of the HP/$ number as some here are. If that number is most important to you, your G35, IS, CTS, etc. all need to be traded in for the mighty Mustang GT. Heck, if BMW sold the 320i (150 HP) in the US I'd be driving one of those right now.

    Claiming that 184 HP is "underpowered" is just plain silly. My E46 325i definitely isn't "underpowered" and neither is my 318ti (a whopping 138 HP). In fact, I'm not aware of any car sold in NA that can't reach any posted speed limit, and I'm sure they can all do it in a reasonable amount of time. My 1.8 litre made it from Atlanta to Daytona (~450 mi.) on one tank of gas (~13 gal.) while averaging 90 MPH for most of the distance.

    I guess what I'm saying is that there is an awful lot more to a car than HP. BMW "under"powered? No. Not enough power for your liking? Probably.
  • geekaygeekay Posts: 51
    IMHO when you have reached where you buy 30k worth of car, you would have or should have made a thorough comparison and you should also have reached an age when you can make decisions based on your own judgement. Like mentioned earlier, we are spoilt for choice. To each his own and let the testosterone belong where it should, in a boy racer forum! Be happy and sport :shades: with confidence what you have. You have (hope) made it here with hard work and so have these cars. Enjoy
  • draknaddraknad Posts: 39
    325/330 19/27
    330 20/29

    G35 19/26
    G35 20/27

    CTS 17/27

    post#: 3531, 3533
    Numbers above. Original post (#2529) suggests gas milage is not much of a deciding factor, since there is small difference between gas milage.
    As for real world numbers, good, I can probably drive a BMW in fith saving mpg's, that's why there are some standard ratings. Everyone drives a little differently.

    post#: 3532
    cool, enjoying a car's feel is largely opinion and owners tend to happily rate their own cars high.
    But I think in this performance forum, we are comparing cars side by side, and
    seeing their performance vs value.
    Is a G35 worth it, or BMW worth it. (or CTS, MB, etc)
    So why is a 184 hp BMW valued at $30K compared to a 298HP G35?
    Why would someone pay $30k for 184hp, when they can get 298hp for equal price.

    Now test drives:
    I think you can't get a feel by just test driving, I think only after owning and driving as a owner, can you really get the feel.

    Now how about this:
    After ownership, anyone in here think about maintenance cost?
    BMW vs G35?
    I know there is another forum, but I think a relfex for BMW fans in here would be
    "my BMW is great, no maintenance problems at all"

    maintenance cost
    BMW > G35 (check, maintenance forum)
    reliability
    BMW < G35 (maintenance forum, JDPower, real world exp)

    So after you pay $30k, for minus 100hp,
    it might cost more $'s after for maintenance.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Why are you quoting stats for a 2 year old BMW.

    325=215 hp
    330=258 hp.
    4 year/50m b to b maintenance cost = $0

    Reliability = if you go by the stats both cars are equal, real world experience seems to indicate they are equal. (Friends who have G35s have the same types of issues with their cars as other friends who have 3 series). Heck most people in this forum would probably say, my G35 no issues what-so-ever. YMMV.

    Is the car worth it to you? If you can't tell the difference between the G35 and 3 series, I'm gonna suggest you won't be able to tell the difference between the G35 and TL. :D
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Original post (#2529) suggests gas milage is not much of a deciding factor, since there is small difference between gas milage.
    As for real world numbers, good, I can probably drive a BMW in fith saving mpg's, that's why there are some standard ratings. Everyone drives a little differently.


    5th gear? The e90 (all manual models) has 6 gears. And you keep posting the freaking e46 numbers...the car is no longer made. The e90 330i is a 21/29 and 20/30 car as I've shown you with my post from BMWUSA; in other words, the source.

    And who says it's not a factor? Lexus made a point of mentioning great fuel economy with their new IS250/350. BMW mentioned the increase in economy on the e90 too. It does make a difference. I know I can beat the hell out of my e46 all day and still get 22/23 mpg while shifting at 5500-6k. I also know from experience with a G35 i'll get in the high teens doing that. And no matter how I drive a G35 on the open road...it simply will not get 30 mpg. 30 mpg as most have pointed out here is a snap with a 330i on the open road at hyper legal speeds.

    After ownership, anyone in here think about maintenance cost?
    BMW vs G35?


    Yes most of us did and that's why many of us opted for included service cars like Audi and BMW. I've bought tires over the past 2 years. Two sets so far...so about 2k on tires. Doesn't matter if I got a G35 or 330i, i'd still be plunking down for new tires every 13-15k miles of driving.

    The people I know with G35s have had to pay for oil changes, services (some as little as $100 and others over $500 for 15k mile check and 30k mile check up). Getting an oil change every 7.5k with synthetic will run you at least $50. So even going low, a G35 by 30k miles will cost at minimum (not including tires) $400. My BMW = 0.

    but what about outside warranty? Average buyers in this bracket don't own more than 3-4 years. I leased my 330i expressly so I'd never own it out of warranty. In other words by 45k miles I will have bought tires for my car. Has it had problems in the first 30k miles? Yep. They haven't cost me one cent. So I really don't care if the car breaks down. It goes to the shop and gets fixed. No big deal. Five minute drive to the dealer and I can always use my other car or get a loaner. :P
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "Why would someone pay $30k for 184hp, when they can get 298hp for equal price."

    Yo-period-dude! BMW no longer uses the 184 hp mill in the 325i. Like it or don't, it's a fact. Get over it.

    As for comparing cars on paper, you are showing your naiveté by your constant reference to the numbers. Please, go drive the damn things, then maybe, just maybe, you'll discover what the rest of us have already discovered; numbers don't necessarily equate to value.

    Regarding the puny little engine in the former E46 325i, take a look at the One Lap of America results for 2005. The single well driven G35 beat the single well driven 325i by a measly 170 points (5195 vs. 5025), or, said another way by a margin of 3%. Hmmm, it would seem to me that if the G35 was SOOO much better than the E46 325i the margin of victory would have been far more significant.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    I find both cars outstanding, the BMW cost a lot more for similar performance, I have driven both. However, the BMW dealers are much less willing to deal than the Infiniti dealer. This tells me that the BMW 330Ci is selling much better than the G35 coupe.
  • "I think you can't get a feel by just test driving, I think only after owning and driving as a owner, can you really get the feel."

    True- but initial impressions are very powerful and research has shown them to be reasonably accurate.

    Your speaking to experienced BMW drivers (me excluded). Drive one and do a comparo to the G35 in this thread. You are quoting the latest model G35, a 2005 w/298 hp. It is only fair that you drive the 2006 325i w/215. If you drive a 2005, it would only be fair to NOT compare it to a 2005 G35 but to a 2004 G35.

    Physics/facts on paper say a bee can't fly...
  • anthonymanthonym Posts: 7
    Just to add to the discussion, I purchased the redesigned 3 series in 1999 (automatic 323i) and currently still have it until I sell it. The handling is unbelievable and quick enough for me even with 184hp. I purchased the next generation 06 330i two weeks ago. I really liked the larger and wider body style and technological advances the car offered. I also test drove the Lexus GS300 and BMW 5 series but decided on the 06 3 series.

    Overall I like the interior of the 06 330i better than my 1999 323i. Two aspects I am disappointed in are the harsh ride due to the run flats and the lack of initial acceleration. The acceleration is very slow after a stop. In fact my 323i has a smoother and quicker acceleration than the new 330i. The ride is much harsher and I don't get the same "hug the road" feel as I do with my 323i. I will seriously look at the redesigned MB C class when it comes out in 2007-2008 and possibly the next E Class or 5 Series. I don't honestly think I will hold onto the 06 330i as long as I did with the 1999 model.
  • draknaddraknad Posts: 39
    Ok, I will respond, although issue will be dragged.
    #3539
    ok, 21/30 20/30 vs 20/27?? (posted links for evidence)
    there that much difference?
    The point is, there is not much difference between a G35 mpg vs 330 mpg.

    ok, drive in 6th gear, sorry missed one gear, but do you agree, you can
    get better gas milage in your highest gear(6,5,4)?
    Hopefully you understand "everyone drives differently" vs gas milage.
    (nother fact for you guys, 2006 not out long enough for stats, please)

    Maintenance, you are admitting you need a service car for backup.
    Meaning, you expect your BMW to be in the shop at times.
    I would prefer my car not in shop ANYTIME unexpectingly.
    BBC maintenance (little old)
    3 maintenance (can't find 3 vs g35)

    325 not made anymore.
    Don't you think you'd still argue 325 184hp's are worth it, even if I posted this message 1 year ago? (2004 184 hp vs 260 hp)
    Still 215hp vs 298hp. (BMW's still behind even after remodeling..haha, rediculus)

    #3540:
    you just posted G35 perform better then 325 for same cost.
    thank you.

    Cutting to the point.
    The point is, why are 325 more worth it vs a G35 (cts, c230, TL)

    I've seen:
    Feel
    Handling
    Power
    Maintenance
    Price
    MPG
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Hopefully you understand "everyone drives differently" vs gas milage.
    (nother fact for you guys, 2006 not out long enough for stats, please)


    We're pointing that without babying the car we get 30 mpg. Again talk to G35 owners and ask them if they can 30 mpg running an average of 85-90 mph all day. They simply can't.

    Maintenance, you are admitting you need a service car for backup.
    When did I write that? I don't have two cars as backup. I have them for different tasks.

    Meaning, you expect your BMW to be in the shop at times.

    I expect ALL cars to breakdown as even my Japanese cars have breakdowns.

    I would prefer my car not in shop ANYTIME unexpectingly.

    But an expected breakdown is okay? What?

    Still 215hp vs 298hp. (BMW's still behind even after remodeling..haha, rediculus)

    Drive them. Until you do, your spouting off is "rediculous."[sic] I'm through responding to you as you're showing yourself to be little more than hater with zero experience in the cars you're touting and denigrating.

    The G35 is a fine automobile I pushed one and had the car react in a less than pretty way (common complaint among reviewers too...including roadtest editor Karl here at Edmunds). I was hot on the G35 until that moment. I drive my cars hard and I'd rather not spend 32-33k on a G35 that I feel is not gonna stay glued to the ground and that has NVH at levels I find disquieting. I'll drop 3-4-5-10k more to get something that makes me happy. If my purchase were ruled by dollars alone, I'd own a 2001 honda accord...
  • cest la vie
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,647
    Hi, TL owner here. Great car.

    "The point is, why are 325 more worth it vs a G35 (cts, c230, TL) "

    The only answer is that, from purely an economic standpoint, anything is only worth what a buyer is willing to pay for it. If I had wanted a 325, I would have bought it and it would have been worth it to me 184 HP and all. You're not buying horsepower, you're buying a car (to meet many personal criteria)! If all you value is HP, maybe Chrysler will sell you a Viper V10 engine for your living room...

    What makes our economy the well oiled machine that it is is the lovely law of supply and demand (and, of course, competition. Laisse faire, Adam Smith and all that economic stuff...Simplifed explanation from a simple mind). Anybody can charge any price for anything they want. But, if there is no demand, guess what? That item is repriced (e.g. GM cars, "Employee pricing for everyone!") or withdrawn from the market (Are they still making the Aztek?). For a myriad of reasons, European cars have always been more exepensive than their domestic & Japaneese counterparts. (Although, with the advent of Acura, Lexus and Infiniti, European prices have come down. More supply/competition in the near/luxury market). However, as there is enough demand for BMW products, well, that's the price you pay, Doc. You want BMW prices to come down to G35 levels? You'd better start convincing the KDs and BlueGuys of the world not to keep buying Bimmers.

    Obviously, a BMW is overpriced to you. You are correct. To KD & BlueGuy, a BMW is a good value. They are correct. I believe my TL to be a great car and value, I'm correct. I'm sure CTS owners feel their car is fabulous. They are incorrect... ;)

    Drive 'em all, buy one and enjoy!

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    All cars breakdown, some even have been bought back via the lemon law. Do you think Infiniti is immune?

    sjk2575, "Infiniti G35 Sedan" #8141, 16 Oct 2003 1:32 pm!keywords=allin%3Amsgtext%20limit%3A.ef010cb%20lemon%20law

    That is post 8141..persuing lemon law with G35. Happy Motoring. :sick:
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    I was all set to buy my first BMW (a 330Ci) then I met the dealer. No dealing, you pay out the nose, and that's it. Infiniti G35 dealers are much more flexible, and the cars are very similar in perfornance and cornering. But I sure wanted a BMW!
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