Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

dhanley · June 2005

"Never have a I met a non BMW/Audi/Lexus/MB person in CA who expresses something negative about Acura/Infiniti owners."

Well, i've never had anyone express anything negative to me about BMW owners either.

I did have one person at work stop talking to me after he saw i had a "new" 3 series, but he was just working through a case of serious toy envy. I don't think it would have been different if i had a acura or infiniti, but i don't know that for a fact of course.

I think it's silly to buy a BMW because of the badge, but you know what? People buy BMW's mercedes, acuras, lexus, mercurys, chevys, pontiacs, toyotas, subarus, etc for the badge as well. I don't see how this should sway you in any specific direction.

dave

joeshan · June 2005

.02 alert.
I dunno, I wanted a sporty rear-drive sedan, and the 3-Series was a little too small, the 5 Series was a little too expensive, but the G35 was just right!

I drove a 545i six speed on the street at a BMW Driving Experience , and it felt great-not flogging it-just driving normally. Yes, the I-Drive was a pain, but I sure could get used to it.
Looked at the '06 3 Series the other day- still kind of tight, but really nice looking. A few friends own BMW's and they all love them. To each their own.

explorerx4 · June 2005

maybe you asked the wrong question?

jsamson · June 2005

Maybe there's a niche market out there-----Hyundai Elantra body kits for your BMW----- "for those who enjoy driving bmws but dont want to be mistaken for a guy who knows what zegna is"

potemkin · June 2005

What's zegna?

frisconick · June 2005

I can afford any car, and I asked my wife what car she wants. We test drove many cars including Porche, MB, BMW and Lexus, and she chose the Acura TL, The last thing on my mind is what others thought, although I understand the BMW stigma. Plus the TL is a great car! Now it's time for me to buy my car. :P

odessit · June 2005

Can you afford Bentley?

laurasdada · June 2005

Wow. You've really thought too long and hard about "BMW Stigma."
"In the 80s and 90s Yuppies made BMW a symbol of greed, selfishness, conspicuous consumption (not at hummer levels but close) and new wealth." Or did Hollywood and Marketing enterprises do that?

Here in the Boston area, BMWs probably outnumber Hyundai's, very common. Growing up in one of the wealthiest places on earth (without me personally being wealthy) prior to moving to The Home of the World Champion Red Sox and Patriots (

), I can't ever remember a comment or discussion "stigmatizing" anyone I knew with a BMW. The only converstaions I remember are how much fun they were to drive and how expensive and often they required maintenance. Or maybe I just care less what other people think. It's my money, my life, my choice. When someone else wants to buy me a car, then I'll let them have a say in it...

I drive an '05 TL. Could I have bought a 3, 5, C or an E? Yup (or even a Bentley. But then I'd still have to work long after I'd passed away...!). But I bought the car I wanted, given the parameters I set for myself. Have I ever heard someone say, "Oh, a TL. Couldn't afford a BMW, huh?" Nope. I suppose "they" could be thinking it, but then again I don't think I know any of "they" nor would I care if that is what "they" were thinking.

To each. If you deny yourself choice simply because of what "they" may or may not be thinking, have fun finding contentment. Although I often think "non-car" people are more content. "Hey, it gets me there and didn't cost an arm and a leg! Now I'm off to my second home in The Hamptons after visiting both my kids at Harvard and picking up my new Patek...!"

Sorry, started rambling! Enjoy your ride, no matter what it is!

pat · June 2005

We're headed for trouble with this line of conversation, I'm here to tell ya.

Let's get back to the cars that fit this category and forego the observations about personalities, who can afford what, etc., and let's just assume that people choose the vehicle that suits their criteria - whatever those criteria may be - judgement of same not required. :confuse:

Thanks.

laurasdada · June 2005

Um yeah, That's kinda what I meant, Pat. Thanks.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans discussions...

Enjoying the TL, hope to put coat four of Zaino on today.

blueguydotcom · June 2005

Here in the Boston area, BMWs probably outnumber Hyundai's, very common. Growing up in one of the wealthiest places on earth (without me personally being wealthy) prior to moving to The Home of the World Champion Red Sox and Patriots ( ), I can't ever remember a comment or discussion "stigmatizing" anyone I knew with a BMW.

Going along with your logic, why would the very people who are despised for buying BMWs mock the stigma of the car? That's like saying you lived among gang bangers and never heard anyone say slammed caddies on bling rims were for punks. That's to be expected.

Ya can't swing a dead cat in San Diego or Granite Bay, CA (my hometown) without hitting several BMWs. I'll stick with my theory that most BMW owners are exactly what I described. They're not buying for performance or fun-to-drive characteristics...they're buying for so-called prestige. As that one guy said, to him the BMW says to the world "I made it." The massive proliferation of steptronic 325s says it all. But to each his own.

Still don't think the TL/G35 come with a stigma. If they do, it's a stigma of frugality, which is hardly a negative thing.

odessit · June 2005

Laurasdada,
Why did you choose TL over 325? Price wise I think they are more or less the same. Am I right? Yes TL is a bit more powerful according to the hours power specs, but bmw is a bit more luxury. What was you deciding factor?
Mike

P.S. to blueguydotcom: YES, I MADE IT (can barely afford it, but still made it.)

And proud of it. And enjoy every second behind the wheel with the shiny BMW logo in its center.

frisconick · June 2005

Bentley, yes I can afford a Bentley, but I don't like them. I gravitate to Japanese cars over European cars. I feel Japanese cars are better made and have better styling. Just a personal opinion, but I must say I do like BMWs both handling and style. Additionally, MB styling is bold and outstanding but they have reliability problems. Reliability is very important to me.

odessit · June 2005

You can afford Bentley…. What do you do for living?!?!?!?!?!
About reliability. I still don’t understandwhy people say that BMW and MB are not very reliable. I ma not familiar with official statistics but I tell you that before I drove Mitsubishi Galant. And I also heard a lot of “non reliable” comments about this brand of cars. At that time (1997) it was the only car I could afford to buy new. And I must say it behaved perfect. With regular normal care for the car I did not have any real problems. So, my suspicion is that maybe it is just a few individual who unfortunately had some problems with MB and/or BMW and made a big deal out of it? Am I wrong or someone has reliable official statistics about it?
mike

pat · June 2005

We need to get back to the cars and stop generalizing about why people buy them.

Thank you.

kyfdx · June 2005

I agree with Pat..

I always agree with Pat...

Besides, when people start talking about how much money they make, and what they can afford, I get depressed...

frisconick · June 2005

I get my reliability information from Consumer Reports. They said that the BMW 3 series is reliable, the 5 and 7 series are not. The MB C, CLK, E, and S class were rated unreliable. Reliability is determined by a survey of 810,000 subscribers.

blueguydotcom · June 2005

But one's man's reliable is another man's unreliable. I'd rate my BMW as unreliable as it's been to the shop for two problems - broken e-brake from the factory and bad ignition coils. I'm taking it in Wednesday for an engine software upgrade.

Others would say that stuff is no big deal. So if CR were to contact me they'd hear my car broke down. A hardcore fan of a company might say both those things were covered under warranty and aren't really indicative of the reliablity. Shrug.

frisconick · June 2005

Apparently, based on CR's report, BMW 5 and 7 drivers are complaining.

pat · June 2005

Shhh... don't tell anyone that the reason I want this discussion to get back on topic is that I can't afford what they are talking about either.

cdnpinhead · June 2005

Thanks for your response. Since I've been monitoring the German boards over the past years, I've read many of your posts. I'm on the slippery slope, sliding toward the propeller, but still have a few years left (I hope) with my present vehicle.

While the financially responsible thing to do is to pick up an off-lease vehicle, I've done a number of business trips to Germany, and can't think of anything better than driving my own new ED XXX to the places I've learned to love.

OTOH, the Infiniti M is very interesting, so long as I'm willing to do without the manual and the fold-down rear seat.

Oh, wait, those are the only two things I care about, besides something resembling luxury.

Perhaps BMW does know what it's doing.

laurasdada · June 2005

Hello, Odessit:

My prefrences are for a Luxury/Sport sedan (TL) as opposed to Sport/Luxury (325). Also, as a lifelong skier and denizen of the mountains of Vermont, New Hampster and Maine I prefer front wheel drive. I'll give up the 9 or 10/10ths handling advantages of RWD for the traction (and packaging) of FWD. The TL handles very well for my tastes. Having said that, the tires on the base TL are TERRIBLE in the snow! That'll teach me. I considered a 325x/330x but I decided I didn't need the added weight and complexity of AWD. I've gotten along just fine without AWD lo these many years in the snow/mountains. Not to mention my New England frugality just wouldn't let me spend so much more for the BMW, especially since I knew the '06 were on the way. Similarly equipped, the TL is less money. Had I really wanted the 3, I would have bought it and I'm sure loved it. But, for me, the TL was a bertter car and value. I also shopped the G35 and Mercedes E320 ( a different animal, I know, but it is such an appealing car to me. Again, I just didn't see the value proposition).

Of course now with 20/20 hindsight and a N.E. winter behind me, a rwd 3 with decent all-seasons would probably have better traction than my TL with the Bridgestones (they're supposedly all-seasons as long as none of the seasons include snow) in the snow! The best laid plans...

Anyway, had I gone with any of the other ELLPS I'm sure I would have been just as happy as I am with the TL. A wonderful class of cars, tough decision. You really can't go wrong.

Oh, yeah. Frisconick: Will you adopt me and buy me an Aston Martin, Daddy?

masteryoda2 · June 2005

if u had a choice of these 2 sports sedans which would u pick?

jsamson · June 2005

Definitely 330i,
this may sound crazy ,330i is the better car but is300 exterior is superior IMHO
FYI guys, i drive a G35, but i could probably afford a G35 w/ the nav.....
And i could probably afford an aston martin, but id also have to live in it as well and eat only one meal per day

kyfdx · June 2005

I'm sort of biased toward the BMW...

I think the question should be... Is the BMW worth $5K more?

And, if it isn't $5K more, then the price of the Lexus is too much...

regards,
kyfdx

frisconick · June 2005

Ok laurasdada, what color do you want? :P

laurasdada · June 2005

Hmmm now Frisco. Did we just form some sort of Internet Message Board formal contract? Kinda like a verbal contract?

How 'bout a nice gun-metal gray? I'll even help you with your new car dilemma by giving you a good deal on my Abyss Blue TL. Once I've got the Aston, of course...

Now you weren' just kiddin' me, were you Dad? :surprise:

frisconick · June 2005

Actually, I prefre the TL over the Aston. Why do you want an Aston, when you have a beutiful Abyss Blue? :P

odessit · June 2005

Look, if laurasdada will not take the Aston – I’ll be happy to take it. Actually I prefer bmw better, so instead of one Aston I’d settle for 5 BMWs

armand · June 2005

Try putting good snow tires on your TL - I did and it made a big difference.

laurasdada · June 2005

Thanks, Armand. I'm considering it, I know it'll make all the difference. I think even just getting a better rated in the snow all-season would be an answer, with FWD and all the electronics.

Frisco: Actually, I'd like to keep my TL for daily fun. The Aston would be for weekend fun. Why do I want an Aston? Why did I want the TL? Why does anybody want anything? Because it would fulfill some need, want and desire deep within my inner-being. And chicks would dig me...

Odessit: Hands off, I asked first!

frisconick · June 2005

lol Chicks do dig nice cars, and bikes, I own a HD too !!! :P

blueguydotcom · June 2005

Only shallow ones.

frisconick · June 2005

Good point blue!

pat · June 2005

CARS!!!! Cars that are within our category ...

Thank you!

kyfdx · June 2005

This is just like Jeopardy..

"Could you rephrase your comment within the context of the discusstion title?"

gfp1 · June 2005

The BMW 3 series / Audi A4 comparo was inexcusably bad. Of course a 330 is going to wipe the floor with with a 2.0, so what's the point? There is absolutely no reason that a supposedly well-respected automotive magazine shouldn't be unable to scare up two comparable cars for a comparison test. What's next, a comparison test between a Porsche and Fiat? Inside line is wasting our time.

pat · June 2005

LOL! Yeah!

draknad · June 2005

It's almost amazing. It seems recent posts support what I tried to post earlier. (eg. #3608, why people buy BMW)
Finally there's no hesitation to question a BMW's value. It almost seemed people are afraid to question BMW's, since it's been foolishly jamed into minds...BMW's are "high performance, high quality...". Mostly by magazines(press), friends(who like the label), and the high price to own.
But as these posts say, it's mostly opinion, and actually, BMW's probably aren't worth the high price for similar performance.
One thing I still don't see many people admitting, is BMW, Benzes, and Audi's low reliability and high cost of maintanance. I feel this is in the direction of pride. No one likes to admit cost paid, vs more cost spent to maintain.
And it is fact, BMW's do break down more then average,
consumeraffairs.com/news03/jdpower.html little old (2003)
benz clsdiff class
2002
and it does cost more once it's in shop (vs Asian, US brands). Of course it depends who drives, but when the car is in the shop, pull out the wallet.

shipo · June 2005

One of the biggest problems that I have with folks who like to take issue with owning a BMW is that they like to dwell on the negative by slamming BMW because they are unreliable and expensive to maintain. That line of bilge has been repeated so often that to some at least, it has become fact. Sorry, but I have never seen any evidence, scientific, anecdotal or otherwise to support such a claim. The simple truth is that cars, ALL cars, are far more reliable now then they have been at anytime in history, and BMWs are some of the most reliable.

Ahhh, buy the naysayers will say, "Oh yeah! Well just look at the statistics referenced in the above post. You'll see that Toyota has 196/PP100 vs. BMWs 262/PP100 rating."

Uh-huh, well personally both numbers look pretty damn good to me, and furthermore, comparing the full North American BMW line (all fairly complex performance/luxury cars) to the full line of Toyotas (starting with no/low option strppo econo-boxes with far fewer components to fail) seems to be a bit disingenuous if you ask me. To my way of thinking at least, a much more fair comparison would be Lexus vs. BMW, and while I haven't seen those numbers in a while, if memory serves, the gap was much narrower. Even still, the report shows that for every four problems reported by a Toyota owner, a BMW owner will report roughly five. So much for being unreliable. I did find it interesting to note that BMW and a few other European manufacturers were singled out in the following quote: Porsche, Jaguar, Saab and BMW perform well above the industry average in dependability as being quite reliable.

Another knock that I continually read about BMWs is that they cost a lot of money to maintain. That too is pure fabrication. The only out of pocket expense a late model BMW owner should experience for the first 50,000 miles is tires. Period, full stop, the end. Everything else is covered under the full maintenance program. Once a car has enough miles and/or years to no longer be covered under the maintenance program, they seem pretty reasonable to maintain, especially given their very long service intervals called for in the Owner's Manual. Basically, change the oil every year or 15,000 miles, change the brake fluid every two years and the coolant every three or four years (IIRC). As for the scheduled "Services", those occur every 30,000 miles, and while the cost can range from $600 to over $1,000, when you consider the number of miles that cost gets amortized over, it just ain't that much money.

Said another way, my bet is that if you were to do an "Apples to Apples" comparison of a new E90 3-Series vs. a new second generation Lexus IS, my bet is that the BMW will cost less money for general maintenance and repair than the Lexus for at least the first 100,000 miles. How much less? Probably not too much, but less is still less.

Me personally, I'm waiting to drive the IS and the E90 back to back, and I'll go with the one I like the best. Their relative reliability and the cost of maintenance is, in my mind at least, not a defining issue.

Best Regards,
Shipo

geekay · June 2005

When you fork out 1000's more, one thing you would expect is more reliability. The IS is the best of the lot in that respect. Every one has their own story to tell, I have not really seen BMW being run down here, in fact it is the other way around, there is wholesale plagiarizing of hyperbole to describe the BMWs as compared to the competition. It is as if use of flowery language and the name is enough to make their cup run over. Reminds of an old chestnut: Guy buys a BMW and drives it OTD, car stops 2 miles later. Owner calls dealer, car is inspected, there is no engine. Owner asks, how did it drive 2 miles? Oh, that would be the reputation, says the dealer, usually gets it so far. Have a nice day folks.

shipo · June 2005

"When you fork out 1000's more, one thing you would expect is more reliability. The IS is the best of the lot in that respect."

Uh-huh, so, where are the scientific numbers to back your claim up. Just because I might say, "Car 'X' is the most reliable or the least expensive to drive and maintain" doesn't make it so. The same thing with what you've written; saying it doesn't make it so.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom · June 2005

One thing I still don't see many people admitting, is BMW, Benzes, and Audi's low reliability and high cost of maintanance. I feel this is in the direction of pride. No one likes to admit cost paid, vs more cost spent to maintain...and it does cost more once it's in shop (vs Asian, US brands). .

Ah but because of the all inclusive 4 yr/50k warranty, maintaining a bmw comes down to new tires once a year. If you're gonna keep the car for more than 3-4 years then maintenance costs become an issue with any car.

Then again, if one buys a G/TL, you gotta get oil changes, tune-ups and so forth.

So for the millionth time - because you're beating a dead horse - total cost to maintain of my 330i - $2000 over two years. All spent on tires.

potemkin · June 2005

One thing I still don't see many people admitting, is BMW, Benzes, and Audi's low reliability and high cost of maintenance.

I bought a BMW 318ti in August of 1995 and drove it daily for 9-1/2 years putting 112,000 miles on the odometer. In that time I had one (1) mechanical failure -- the ignition switch went out and need to be replaced. I think it cost me something like $275.00, I forget.

I'm sorry, but it would be disingenuous for me to confess to reliability problems I haven't had. I'm not saying that BMW's are problem free (no car is), it's just that reliability ratings can be misleading. Just because it says that the average maintenance cost of a BMW is X amount of dollars, doesn't mean that everyone who buys one is going to wind up spending that amount. I'm sure there is someone out that bought one just like mine that has sworn off BMW forever after the gazillionth trip to the repair shop, but I'm not that guy. Quit accusing us lying just because we won't reinforce your preconceived notions of German car reliability.

Besides, if you look at the numbers closely, it appears that the odds of buying a unreliable new car in the US is pretty slim no matter what make you buy.

kdshapiro · June 2005

Actually people are afraid to question the value of a Japanese car. Friend has been a long time Acura nut, but has been frothing at the mouth due to issues. My BMW was in any shop 5 times in 3 years. That's the way it should be, and I daresay out of my BMW owning friends, it is.

And when they are out of warranty, Japanese vehicles cost as much to repair/maintain as German.

Can you say $3K for a transmission?

blueguydotcom · June 2005

Really cheap. My buddy's 540 had a tranny issue. over $5k later it was replace/fixed. Ouch. From what i've heard most automatics when they go bad costs that kinda dough now. And people wonder why I run from automatics...

draknad · June 2005

Nother myth people don't understand. (BTW: this is another discussion statement)
FWD vs RWD
SCCA Touring Car pts standings
TOP 6: FWD lead points
7/10 FWD lead point standings.
So you think RWD performs better then FWD?
FWD cars regularly outperform RWD. And we're talking prof racing.

qbrozen · June 2005

I've tried that argument a number of times. Its like trying to argue against a religion. At some point, you wind up talking in circles and convincing nobody of anything.

kyfdx · June 2005

Well.. maybe that is because you are wrong!!

It could happen, ya know?

qbrozen · June 2005

have you been talking to my wife?

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