Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

frisconick · September 2005

That's why I rely on CR, a non-profit, who I believe shoots straight.

kdshapiro · September 2005

They do, but their evaluations have not meshed with mine for a very long time. Therefore I find the only way to find a car is to knock on every dealers door and test drive every car you may be interested in. And that's what I do. In the end, I make the decision based on the utility/form and function and financials. Nothing else. I don't consult the statistics purveyors or the mags. Oh and if possible I do consult with people who have these cars to find out their experiences with the car and the dealer.

The only time in many, many years I had buyers remorse is when I didn't get the M3.

dfc3 · September 2005

Depends upon what your criteria are. CR doesn't always give me what I'm looking for in their evaluation. What's important to one person isn't always what's important to another.

klpeel · September 2005

Just because an organization/publication is "non-profit" and doesn't accept ads doesn't excuse them from all bias, which is a natural human condition. They do have their own biases which thankfully are less virulent in the automotive sector. Their board is dominated by "consumer advocate" types who believe strongly in government regulation and intervention, an approach that can actually work against consumer choices and intangibles such as performance.

ctalk · September 2005

Click here

1st BMW 330i
2nd Lexus IS350
3rd Infiniti G35
4th Acura TL
5th Audi A4 3.2 Quattro
6th Cadillac CTS
7th Volvo S60R AWD
8th Saab 9-3 Aero

dfc3 · September 2005

Thanks for passing along. Interesting that Mercedes wasn't included. The C-series should be, IMO, right in there.

venture · September 2005

"Mercedes-Benz didn't make it aboard the crazy bus because a C-class couldn't yet be had with the company's new DOHC 3.5-liter V-6."

pat · September 2005

I moved your post to the more appropriate Lexus IS 300 discussion. Here is a link: christina271, "Lexus IS 300" #2968, 19 Sep 2005 5:21 pm.

frisconick · September 2005

Really can't disagree strongly with the rankings, especially the 330i. I think the TL is a bit under under rated. But in terms of handling, the MB C class is very good. Did C&D complain the the C had too little hp?

pat · September 2005

between the Lexus IS 350 and the E90 330iA: nyccarguy, "BMW 3-Series 2006+" #4340, 19 Sep 2005 11:22 pm. Hop over there and check it out, then come back here to discuss ...

150mphclub · September 2005

Hmmm, I test drove a C350 about 5 weeks ago, and my dealer had a half dozen of them. I guess the dealers have a lot more clout than C/D or maybe Daimler/Benz recognized the C/D bias toward BMW. The IS thrashed the BMW on all objective criteria, but lost on the subjective criteria AND a calculation error in adding up the final results.

150mphclub · September 2005

CR explains what they test and how they test it in their latest issue. It is all pretty objective. I once thought they had a bias toward Lexus, but after reading the SEP 05 issue, I am convinced they are completely objective.

What is most interesting is that they don't get a specially prepared car from the factory for their tests like all the car mags do. They go to a dealer and buy one off the floor just like you and I do.

fedlawman · September 2005

"The IS thrashed the BMW on all objective criteria, but lost on the subjective criteria"

Every magazine I've read said the IS has overboosted, numb steering. This alone should be enough to knock the Lexus off the podium in a sport sedan comparo, but how do you measure it objectively?

If objective numbers are all that matter, save $15,000 and buy that 300 hp Pontiac Grand Prix GXP you know you want...

dewey · September 2005

The IS thrashed the BMW on all objective criteria, but lost on the subjective criteria AND a calculation error in adding up the final results. The CD verdict was quite decisive in what car they favored!

LOL!!!

If you re-read that CD article you will realize the BMW over IS choice was a bit more than a calculation error and subjectivity!

Every IS review I read so far had the following to say in all their final paragraphs:"The IS is a great car, but certainly not a 3 series.

Subjectivity?? Call it what you like!

dewey · September 2005

http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050919.006/bmw/1.html

The terms BMW and fuel efficeincy are rarely used in the same sentence(except future hydrogen vehicles). The website linked above indicates that BMW is currently taking fuel efficiency quite seriously.

1)BMW is therefore now becoming the first car maker in the world to offer High Precision Injection as a solution appropriate for large-scale production saving fuel to an extent in practice simply unparalleled by other technologies.

2)Brake Energy Regeneration and Automatic Start/Stop: Substantial Improvement of Fuel Economy without Forfeiting that Driving Pleasure so Typical of BMW.

3)The second major component of BMWs Technology Package is the Automatic Engine Start/Stop System. Being introduced as Auto Start/Stop, this system will automatically switch off the engine in an increasingly large number of models in future as soon as the car comes to a standstill, for example at the traffic lights. Then, as soon as the driver presses down the clutch or operates the gas pedal, the engine starts again automatically.

blueguydotcom · September 2005

The terms BMW and fuel efficeincy are rarely used in the same sentence(except future hydrogen vehicles). The website linked above indicates that BMW is currently taking fuel efficiency quite seriously.

With the 3 series I think of the cars as fuel efficient. over 30 mpg at 95 mph all day through the desert is pretty darn impressive.

dewey · September 2005

I stand corrected!

bdr127 · September 2005

20/30 for the new 3-Series, 21/29 for the 5-Series, and 17/25 for the big 750Li 4.8L V8.... The BMW gas mileage that really amazes me is the X5 4.8is at 16/21 with that same V8 in an SUV!

designman · September 2005

I dont mean to rub it in but on a recent trip in my 530ia I got 33.4 mpg pure highway averaging 70 mph and that was headed into the prevailing westerlies! My 4-cyl Outback doesnt even get that much. A friend of mine said he got almost 600 miles on a tank (pure highway) with his 328. But they will drink when you whip them or languish in traffic. In general the bimmers are pretty fuel efficient. However, I do agree that fuel-efficiency and BMWs is not a general perception, probably because of the ultimate driving machine branding.

bdr127 · September 2005

I've heard many anecdotal accounts of drivers get better than posted mpg in their Bimmers.... when they drive them conservatively. I think that most BMW drivers get less than the posted mpg because they drive them as they are "meant to be driven."

Therefore, there is the public perception that Bimmers don't get as good of gas mileage as they really do when driven like any other car.

blueguydotcom · September 2005

I've heard many anecdotal accounts of drivers get better than posted mpg in their Bimmers.... when they drive them conservatively. I think that most BMW drivers get less than the posted mpg because they drive them as they are "meant to be driven." Therefore, there is the public perception that Bimmers don't get as good of gas mileage as they really do when driven like any other car.

Hmmm, I don't think you get what I wrote and what many will back up. At hyper-legal speeds we're getting over epa estimates with BMWs. These cars are geared and designed for the autobahn...sixth gear at 95 and we'restill not even at 4k rpm. I don't baby my car in the least. 5k rpm shifts are standard for my car when it's warmed up.

150mphclub · September 2005

If YOU re-read the article you would find under BMW, statements such as repeated attempts to start, and brake failure. Just what I want in a performance sedan.

The IS started every time, and the brakes worked. You are right. It is not a 3 series.

I believe they also understated the EPA estimates for the IS (should be 21/28).

I don't own an IS, but I know bias when I see it.

blueguydotcom · September 2005

Funny thing, my 330i has been out of commission the past two days (two different sensors went out one right after another) and the X3 loaner I'm driving has a christmas tree of lights blinking on the dash, yet I'm looking forward to hopping back in my 330i.

And unless I can get into a IS350 for less than 35k with leather, sport, xenons, moon, I'll probably (85% sure) end up in an e90. Ideally a 335i will be available sometime in 2006 so I can extend my lease to get to the 335i.

Is that bias? No. If the IS350 offered a better driving experience it'd win my purchase. Who knows maybe it does...but given the reviews that seems unlikely.

frisconick · September 2005

What is most interesting is that they don't get a specially prepared car from the factory for their tests like all the car mags do. They go to a dealer and buy one off the floor just like you and I do.

That is why I trust CR more than others.

dewey · September 2005

If YOU re-read the article you would find under BMW, statements such as repeated attempts to start, and brake failure. Just what I want in a performance sedan.

I AGREE!!!

And most reviewers including CD agree with your above assertion---The E90 is exactly what you would want as a performance sedan

saigonboi21 · September 2005

it does get great mileage on the freeways. But in the cities, it's horrible. I only get about 300 miles on a full tank and i dont even push it. I drive conservatively - main reason being the break-in period. Is this normaL??? i mean i know u get way less in the cities but 300 miles???

perhaps im just paranoid

nightcrawler29 · September 2005

I don't know what's your beef.... 300 miles on a full tank its pretty normal on city driving... at least that's the kind of range I've been getting on my TL, and I'm a pretty conservative driver... and this is driving with maybe 50% of the time using the a/c..

blueguydotcom · September 2005

Saigon mileage will improve. I shift at over 4500 rpm most of the time after warm up. 75% to WOT for me is pretty common too and I still get 22 mpg around town.

gordonwd · September 2005

Hmmm... Miles per tankful is a pretty poor way to guage fuel efficiency since there is a small factor called "size of the tank". My buddy gets way more miles per tankful in his motor home, but then it costs him over $300 when he finally fills it up

. In my normal around-town easy driving, I get about 25 mpg in my E46 325, and 30 in highway driving. That's about 1-2 mpg worse than my previous car, an A4 1.8T, but then the 325i has a bigger, more powerful engine and I'd expect a difference like that.

gordonwd · September 2005

These comparisons, whether in a magazine or on this message board, are always subjective. Even an "objective" comparison usually has subjectivity in the categories that the comparison includes and how they're measured.

I think we also all have various prejudices in viewing different brands. For example, if I were buying an American car, I would look at GM and Chrysler, but would not even walk into a Ford dealership. Why? I have no idea, but I've never liked Fords. In a similar way, I could see myself in a Nissan/Infiniti or Honda/Acura, but would never consider a Toyota/Lexus product.

That may be just me, but I suspect that there are similar prejudices lurking inside all of us.

dfc3 · September 2005

Oh absolutely. Many of the brand perceptions people have date back many years to their initial perceptions. As an example, my wife still thinks of Mercedes as "top of the line can do no wrong" despite several years of electronic problems. I still think of BMW at first gut reaction not so much as the leader, but as the "yuppie brand" - until I think about it.

I know several people in their 40s who would never consider any American car because of issues from 25 years ago.

victord1 · September 2005

All of these post claiming 30+mpg on the 330's and even the 530's really got jealous :P . I guess I should have bought the last of the '05 330s.
My last 300+miles to Greensboro, NC in my '03 maxima only got me roughly 27mpg @ roughly 70mph. However, on my way back to Wash., D.C., somewhere allong I-85, I got into a chase with a TL and a 325i for about 25 min. We hit 105+mph before we got to Petersburg, VA, and had to slow down. It was a bit nerve recking because that section of I-85 has only 2 lanes each way, So we were basically blowing past the slower (70mph) traffic in the next lane.

The guy in the 325i gave up once we hit 95mph.
However, according to consumerreports.org, the 330 (225hp) mileage doesn't look all that impressive for overall driving. It's less (efficient) than the '04 TL (270hp), and equal the '03 TL-S (260hp). :confuse:
I guess to get that kind of (claimed) mileage one better start taking a vacant freeway/interstate (which, sometimes, translates to a longer route) to work.
I also have a '03 TL-S. Maybe I should take it on my next trip to see what kind of mileage it gets.

potemkin · September 2005

Drove my 1995 318ti from Atlanta to Daytona (~450 miles) on one tank (~13.5 gallons)...

Oh, and I averaged about 90 MPH.

blueguydotcom · September 2005

In my 30s, as are my friends. I've helped about 8 people buy cars in the past 3 years. Not a single one would even look at an american brand. They flat out refused. I believe the american brands have lost my generation - especially on the west coast. Euro and Japanese brands are all they'll consider. American brands are considered junk here.

Kirstie_H · September 2005

Don't forget tonight's member-to-member chat - it's open mic night, so come and discuss whatever's on your mind.

6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. Drop by for live chat with other members. Hope you can join us!

kirstie_h

billyperks · September 2005

Do you really have the S or are you pulling my leg?
You are the man now if you have that in your stable.

As for the slushbox question- no way,my next car is definitley a manual, please dont tell my wife.

Cosmetic chages- if Acura does not change the TL to a different drive, I am not buying ie- SH-AWD (RWD is not practical in the NE)

Fog lights needs to moved under the headlights.

PS- I am not thin skinned, I know our past debates was just pure fun.

cdnpinhead · September 2005

I'm with you 100%, and I'm nowhere near my 30s. I've only owned two American-branded cars (one was built in Canada), and they've both been disappointments, relative to the Asian (& even the British) cars I'd owned earlier, when I was in my 30s & 20s.

It's Asian, or maybe German, for me from now on. Even if the American vehicle works okay, the depreciation is killer.

shipo · September 2005

"RWD is not practical in the NE"

He he, I LOVE driving RWD cars here in New England. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

pg48477 · September 2005

My 325 MT gets much better millage than my TL-S, particularly in the city, on the freeway about the same. :P

jason18 · September 2005

2005 Benz C230 kompressor
5 Speed Automatic
Pewter metallic Paint w/black leather inserts
Sunroof Pkg
6-disc changer

$30,200 out of the door. Interest of the loan from my own bank is not included.
How is the deal? Should I make the deal?

fedlawman · September 2005

The Solstice/Sky is the first American car to get me excited in many years. It may just change my mind about the Big 3's potential.

frisconick · September 2005

I have not had good luck with American cars, but what is a Solstice/Sky ?

blueguydotcom · September 2005

They caught my eye until I saw a few things... 1.6 cubic feet of trunk space, top operation must be done outside of car, gas mileage in the teens. Uh, no thanks.

nyccarguy · September 2005

that many on the Lexus board are screaming about how could C&D choose the BMW over the new IS350? The IS350 is faster, had a great braking distance, and the BMWs brakes FAILED????????

I think for these guys it is really about the drive and the way the car flows, everything together. The fact that the brakes failed doesn;t enter into their mind. I know a few people who owned Alfa Romeos in the '60s, 70's, & 80's. They all tell me the same thing...The car was in the shop all the time, but it was so much damn fun to drive. They all say they'd buy another Alfa in a second!

fedlawman · September 2005

frisconick - http://www.fast-autos.net/pontiac/pontiacsolstice.html

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.php?file=car.php&carnum=2190

nyccarguy - I had a 1979 Spider when I was in college - I'd love to have one today (or better yet, a 1969 boat-tail). Oh, as long as we're dreaming, I'd also like a 1972 GTV (in dark green, thank you).

blueguy - OK, I admit the top-down thing is a minus. But seriously, trunk space and fuel economy !?!?!?! (edit: Pontiac says 20 city/28 hwy). I just built an "Emerald Green Metallic" Solstice with LSD, ABS, and A/C for $21,500 MSRP (it looks hot!). With my GM family employee discount, that's about $18,500. I like the Miata more (lighter on it's feet), but you gotta admit, that's a heck of a lot of car for the money!

designman · September 2005

OK, I admit the top-down thing is a minus.

Nah, one less thing to go wrong. Make believe its an old Porsche or your Spyder. I think the Sky styling is much better, very cool. Saw a Solstice on the road for the first time yesterday. Definitely looks sporty albeit a bit too playful, toy-like on the front end.

dewey · September 2005

Despite the name of this forum, I cant help but notice the emphasis among many forum members with mpg! MPG has become as important as performance or luxury!

Also during the Frankfurt show, the focus was not so much on the new gas-consuming MB S series as on new fuel efficeincy endeavors by all attending auto makers! Is it mere coincidence that the two major exhibits---the MB S series and the Audi Q7 have futue hybrid versions? In fact most of the excitement was reserved for any car that boosted fuel efficiency!

Definety the sign of the times!

Maybe sometime in the future the best performance luxury sedans available will not be defined by its performance or luxury! The best future luxury performance sedan will be defined by how well it consumes gas at a given level of performance/luxury.

billyperks · September 2005

I meant to say North East but in any event it is the same thing.
Good luck driving in the ice and snow with your RWD.

shipo · September 2005

Good luck? Hmmm, I'm thinking that it is more a matter of a very competent car (530i) and a very good set of winter tires (Michelin Arctic-Alpin). Oh, and a modicum of driver competence as well. ;-)

Over the years I've driven them all, AWD, 4WD, FWD and RWD, and my 530i shod with winter tires has been by far my favorite winter mount. :shades:

Best Regards,
Shipo

navigator89 · September 2005

Check out this 8 car comparison test

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles