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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

178101213435

Comments

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    The Legacy GT is another one I'm looking forward to. But I'd be surprised if it bests the others. It will probably be faster in a straight line with a tall clutch dump, but on a track they will be much closer. Unless Subaru finally puts a real sporting suspension on a non-STi product, its not going to be very tossable.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "You G35, TL & IS300 worshipers are gonna be upset when the new 2005 Legacy finally hits the shores. Performance and handling will leave those behind. I say it here now so you won't be disappointed when the mags say it later. "

    This car may be geared to get to 60 in less than 6 but lets see the real numbers when tested and see the rest of the story. I expect it to be a solid car but I doubt 3/G lovers are weeping just yet. 250 HP spread to 4 wheels is about what an a-4 is...fun but no M5.
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Member Posts: 252
    If you review the few mag articles that relate specifically to the GT, they mention how balanced the handling is. The rub has always been the lack of power, and the interior refinement.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I can buy an SRT4 for cheap, put $10K worth of mods in it and blow everything away. But I ask myself, is this the car I really wanna drive? What does the ability to outgun every car with one that has not even a modicum of luxury have to do with anything?

    Yes you'll lose the race, but I'm sure you will think, look at that guy in the cheap modded American car, compared to my fancy A-spec TL. :)
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Member Posts: 252
    For mountain highway travel, canyon carving and all purpose driving the Legacy has always been a sleeper. It now finally will have the engine the chassis deserves. Drive a Leagcy in the mountains and you will know what I am talking about. If you want mods then wait till the STi Legacy comes, rumour is 350-400 HP Turbo H6 to match up directly with S4. : )
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    Thats more like it..400 hp is the benchmark - I hope everyone has an offering with that in mind. It will come down to pricing if these makers can really produce what they say they are..pretty comparable cars...the car that we Infiniti enthusiast long await is called Skyline-GTR and it will have near 500 hp for a speculated 55k or so and look like a cross between a G and a bugatti and a viper. The 2006-2008 car shopping seasons should be interesting for us.

    Lets not forget that these are more sports cars than sports sedans. Hopefully I'll be in the minivan by then toting kids around. I'd love to have a 1986 caravan and a GTR for myself and the M5 or a tuaras for the finacee'.
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    Sorry riez, but the IS300 is the only Lexus that actually looks and feels like a regular Toyota. After sitting in the interior for five minutes one thing came to mind "Corolla". I am sure it handles great and all that, but the interior IMO the interior is major turnoff. Ok, maybe I am spoiled, but after driving an Audi for almost a year I've become what you call a "dash-stroker".
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    I sat in the audi my not quite father in law just bought and All I could think was Volkswagen. Which by the way is not bad considering the passat interior is one of the most refined even out of its own class. While the interior was nicer in the audi it made me bored. G may not have the warm simple perfection of the Audi...but it's not boring at all. Perhaps I enjoy chaos.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    speedracer... Put on over 30,000 miles in an '00 323ia (w/Prem Pkg) and nearly 30,000 miles in my loaded '98 540i6. The IS300 interior compares favorably. But then again, I'm NOT looking for fake wood trim, "warm" brown interiors, etc. I want only black interior and prefer aluminum/chrome trim piece interiors.

    The IS300 has beautiful "drilled" pedals and the interesting chronograph instrument cluster. The IS300 has one more legitimate gauge than either the 323ia or 540i6.

    The IS300 is a boy racer interior. Serious interior for serious fun! What more could you want out of an interior? Luxury? Not me!

    (My wife was always mad about the 323ia. It lacked the chrome doorsill plate like the 540i6. The 3 Series is just decent interior wise.)
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Member Posts: 650
    BMW interiors certainly have the material quality you would expect out of a luxury car, but the styling itself is austere. IMO, a bit boring. The G35 is fine ergonomically, but the quality of some of the plastics is poor for a luxury car. The IS300 has a boy racer look that not everybody cares for, some of the materials are Toyota not Lexus quality and I don't care for that chronograph speedo and such. Audi interiors are not always ergonomically sound (putting a cupholder over the stereo comes to mind), but the quality of plastics is incredible, also there is so much attention to detail and style that it is a pleasure to sit inside day in and day out.
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    riez - I'm glad you enjoy your IS300 so much but you've got to come clean. How did you justify owning a car in this class range that gets SUV type fuel mileage (18/25)? Were you aware of this fact when you bought the car? Are the numerous trips to the gas station worth the driving fun?

    Do any of you out there consider fuel economy when buying a "Luxury Performance Sedan"? I know I do.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Do any of you out there consider fuel economy when buying a "Luxury Performance Sedan"? I know I do."

    Yes, my vehicle gets 32 mpg on the open road, even tooling along at a good rate. I usually get 24-26 in city driving. CR validates the 32, which I find amazing. Gas mileage is important for a daily driver. It wouldn't be as important for a week-end car.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "Do any of you out there consider fuel economy when buying a "Luxury Performance Sedan"? I know I do. "

    Yes as long as its better than 14-16 I'm OK. I may get a prius next time and the GF an M5 - then I'll be in the right car to worry about mileage. From an expense standpoint gas has been a lower and lower percentage of my driving costs considering my car is fully financed and insurance is higher than 1k.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "I may get a prius next time and the GF an M5"

    Not me. M5 for me, gf gets Ferrari, wife gets RX330.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "I may get a prius next time and the GF an M5"
    Not me. M5 for me, gf gets Ferrari, wife gets RX330. "

    With all the sitting our cars do we decided to cut back. She was going to get a 3 series or a murano or FX while I have the G - we both will be taking train soon to work so whats the point...we need one nice car and one beater. She got a Mitsubishi Outlander (can you believe i talked Princess into that??) for the simple fact we need AWD and want only one lux car sitting at the train station.

    SO next time it's my turn to get a beater. The prius may be the ultimate car for what we need 1/2 the time. I bet I could coast her down the hill to the station without even turning the motor on. My dads is impressive. I promised her a 5 to get this deal. I may end up in a Le car if they are more than the 80k i expect them to be...
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    LOL. Looks like you came to your financial senses. For a while, I thought you had more cars than Schwarzenneger.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    But on the other hand, I can afford an M5. The question is can I afford the insurance. :)
  • cybersolcybersol Member Posts: 91
    Thanks riez for the CR info on the G35. The G35 in that test is also lacking the sport package with the nicer tires and tighter suspension.

    As for fuel economy, despite technological advancement, performance and economy are fundamentally opposite objectives. And gas is cheap compared to the total cost of this class of cars.

    As an owner of none of these, but a long time shopper, my opinion on the best for each function.

    Exterior Design: All good, all different
    Interior Design: A4, TL, C-Class
    Size/Space: G35 and TL
    Acceleration: BMW, G35, TL
    Braking: all very similar
    Handling: BMW, G35, IS300
    Cost: Similar except the 330i, C-Class cost more
    Reliability: Japanese better than European

    For me personally, Acceleration, Handling, Size, and Cost are more important than the interior, so if I were shopping for a sedan it would lead me to the G35.

    But I am looking for a convertible, and I can't have a manual because my significant other will not budge on that issue. All that leads me to a 330Cic with SMG.

    Have fun and remember they are all nice cars, depending largely on what you want most.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    how can the TL with its 270 HP engine be placed behind a 225 HP BMW in acceleration?

    i've driven both cars. the acceleration on the TL is phenomenal.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Because the 330i is actually faster to 60 according to Car and Driver?
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    "Because the 330i is actually faster to 60 according to Car and Driver?"

    If that's true, it doesn't accord with my real world experience. Also, the VTEC engines are well known for not having a lot of low end torque. If the 330i and TL are both going say 40, I'm sure the TL would hit 70 a lot faster.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You can check car and driver yourself, I don't have the links handy. This information is actually posted up a few.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    kdshapiro, i believe your stats on car and driver. i could see a 330i beating a TL on a flat start, but not with a running start.

    also wondering if they compared manual to manual or manual to automatic.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "But on the other hand, I can afford an M5. The question is can I afford the insurance. :) "

    We should be closer to middle aged and perhaps on the matrimony discount by then. Hoping for anti lawsuit legislation as well....I'd also consider the JET bike Jay leno bought if the M doesn't work out. As he describes it..."faster you go - the more it accelerates" That would be quite a feat if they can get a car to do that...was contemplating a rolls royce turbine upgrade on the G instead of a lightweight flywheel. HA
  • prattsterprattster Member Posts: 59
    This is the one to watch in about a year's time frame. I'll bet the farm it goes AWD with the sooped up engine.

    http://www.imakenews.com/autospies/e_article000214337.cfm
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Doesn't say it's RWD...YAWN!
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    chrisboth & kahunah... What percentage of long-term ownership costs do you think are related to fuel? Not much. Depreciation is the biggest hit. Don't forget about insurance. TTL. Annual registration. Maintenance, including tires.

    I paid about $30,000 for the car. I'm getting about 25-26 mpg. If I drive 100,000 miles over 6 years that will take about 3,922 gallons of fuel (at 25.5 avg.mpg). In my town right now premium (Amoco/BP Ultimate, the only fuel I use) costs about $1.63 per gallon. That would be a mere $6,393 in total fuel costs. My car insurance over the same time would be about $7,200. The intitial tax on the car was around $1,500. In the first five years of ownership, it will cost me about $1,950 just to register the car ($325 per year). Four sets of tires will cost me at least $1,600 (at just $100 per tire). And what will depreciation be over this 100k/6 years? Probably about $20-24,000.

    So that $6,393 in fuel isn't a big consideration. Say I got 30 mpg. That would be 3,333 gallons for $5,433. Or a mere $960. $160 per year. Or just $.0096 per mile driven. Is this a big deal? Not even a penny a mile.

    [Hope I did my maths right.]

    I'm getting nearly 26 mpg. That is SUV-like??? Not hardly! At least not at 74 mph which is what I normally drive on interstate.
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    I enjoy putting food in my baby. Its the insurance that makes me spin.

    I'm paying for a hit & run rings dinner right now via my insurance premiunm and I bet they are eating better than i right now...
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    You tell me, riez:

    RX330 20/26 (FWD)
    RX330 18/24 (AWD)
    IS300 18/25 (RWD) That's just pitiful.

    All figures courtesy of Lexus.com
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435
    The RX isn't an SUV, it's a tall Camry station wagon with a lot of gadgets.

    But, the IS is not particularly fuel efficient fgiven it's size and output, but I expect that the new V6 engines (in the upcoming GS, and probably the next IS if there is one) will get betteg MPG.

    As Reiz pointed out, if you can afford a car in this class (and it's upkeep), the difference between 25 and 30 MPG isn't going to be a real big factor.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "As Reiz pointed out, if you can afford a car in this class (and it's upkeep), the difference between 25 and 30 MPG isn't going to be a real big factor."

    Honestly though these cars are in the range for other vehicles their size, engine size and weight. But wouldn't you rather get 23 around town than 17? Unless you buy a V12, forced air high performance whatever, in the 3 to 3.5L range, there is no reason good performance has to come at the expense of fuel economy and emissions. What with the EVO cited in enthusiast mags about getting 14mpg. If that's your bag fine. Right now it ain't mine.
  • pg48477pg48477 Member Posts: 309
    I don't think that fuel millage is very important when buying a car.
    But on the other hand for 3.0 engine and only 220HP, sound like realy low millage, plus the car is not that heavy.
  • pg48477pg48477 Member Posts: 309
    Have anybody here considered S60R, not many people talking about it, but looks like a grate car.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "I don't think that fuel millage is very important when buying a car."

    When you're fuel bills are $350 dollars a month because you drive a lot of mileage and get lousy economy you might change your mind. But of course we each have our own priorities.
  • jmessjmess Member Posts: 677
    I drove a V8 pickup for a few years to condition myself before buying a sporty sedan. Anything that gets over 20 MPG is an economy car to me. I seldom even check the mileage any more. One of the beauties of not having a trip computer is you don't have to deal with as much guilt? Just gas and go.
  • cybersolcybersol Member Posts: 91
    Well, first of all, horsepower has little to do with acceleration, its all about top speed. Acceleration is about torque, and not just peak torque, but the whole area under the torque curve. The TL achieves 238 lb.ft. @ 5000 rpm while the BMW achieves 214 lb.ft. @ 3500 rpm. So there is only 24 lb. ft. of difference in the peak torque, but the bmw acheives it much earlier. An earlier torque peak generally means a much broader and flatter torque curve in general (less peaky). It also generally means less peak hp, which explains the large hp difference.

    And second of all, the engine is not alone, power is tramsitted to the ground via the gearing of the transmission and the final drive axle. Gear spacing affects acceleration by allowing the engine to stay longer between its peak torque and peak hp. The first gear ratio also needs to be selected so as to deliver maximum power without overpowering the wheels and tires that will deliver the force to the ground.

    All that being said, I listed the BMW, G35, and TL because they are approximately equal in all the acceleration testing I have seen. There seems to be just as large a variation in the times of different G35s, for instance, as there is a variation between the three different models.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    The RX is based on the Camry.

    The IS300's "lowish" highway fuel economy estimate is due to its gearing. It does not use a very deep overdrive 5th gear. I'd prefer a deeper overdrive, but you hardly have to shift out of 5th in order to pass. The IS300 is performance car, not an economy car. Designed for drivers who even want performance in 5th gear?

    Just compare the gearing in the Camry and RX versus the IS300 (taking into account both final drive ratio and the individual ratio of each gear).

    If you want to complain, check out the mileage differences between the 325i and 330i. The less powerful 325i isn't very fuel efficient. And part of that problem is tied to its gearing (as well as a smallish engine for the car's weight).
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
    "Unless you buy a V12, forced air high performance whatever, in the 3 to 3.5L range, there is no reason good performance has to come at the expense of fuel economy and emissions. What with the EVO cited in enthusiast mags about getting 14mpg. If that's your bag fine. Right now it ain't mine."

    What's that song on the pulp fiction sountrack about a preacher man?? It's in my head right now for some reason....whatever KDS drives is the right amount of gas mileage to be getting to not be over polluting with emissions and about the right gas mileage....sick the Prius board on him! If mileage is a concern you will always compromise yourself out of the next class up wont you. 300-400 hp 45k cars baby...fuggeda about the flippin gas - we live in the US PEOPLE
  • g17g17 Member Posts: 45
    Well I can't believe I got thru the thread. I have to say i used to have an IS300, and it was OK. I used it as a daily beater. For me it was a good commuter car, certainly not comfortable for long rides, and not quick enough to toy with people stoplight to stoplight. It handled well, but no better than the A4 I had. I bought it used for a great price, and I must say it was damn reliable, but above all this the reason I got rid of it was because of the type of people that drive them. Most, not all, are juveniles, or act like it and swear up and down its the best vehicle since the Model T was introduced. At least now I've dumped it, and I don't have these clowns coming up to me asking me what 'mods' it has :-)
  • kahunahkahunah Member Posts: 448
    The truth is revealed. Thanks g17!
  • chrisbothchrisboth Member Posts: 493
  • jmessjmess Member Posts: 677
    There is one other SportCross and 3 IS300 sedans that regularly cut through my neighborhood. I have never seen anyone under 30 driving one of them.

    I am 51 and I kind of like the way the younger women react to my IS300 SportCross. The trouble is they are more interested in the car than me. I even have some mods to talk about if one of them asks.

    It is kind of sad to get so mature that you worry about being associated with juveniles. I think I will try and avoid that condition as long as possible.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    So we are to worry about who else might like and drive the same car?

    BMW owners are always tarnished as snobs or yuppies. MB owners as aloof, intelligensia.
    Volvos and Saabs as suburban soccer moms or save-the-whale crowd. Japanese premium marques as boring and playing it safe. Jaguar as being to-the-manor-born.

    This must rule out most Porsche and Corvette owners who obsess about performance and improving their car's performance. Not to mention all the Mustang, Firebird, Camaro, etc. people who love to do mods. Not to mention the entire tuner crowd and their Civics, etc.

    But then again, when I used to have my '96 Impala SS and was a member of the major owner clubs (state and nationally), when we got together all we talked about were mods, performance, tuning, etc. And we were the 30-50 crowd.

    Guess people are more alike than not? People who love cars love performance and want the best. That might mean some mods.

    And, yeah, TRD and others have some nice mods for the IS300. That is a problem for anyone here?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Well said!
  • raherraher Member Posts: 99
    It will always be the same...how fast do you want to go ? How much money have you got ?
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    riez, i agree with you 100%. you can't even judge someone's wealth by the cars they drive. i know plenty of wealthy people who treat cars like a cost (let's face it, it's probably the most rapidly depreciating asset you can own) and will gladly buy a CamCord, beat on it for 7 years and then buy another one.

    others don't have much but put all their cash into cars and skimp on everything else. or they buy a used car for cheap. you can never tell.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "others don't have much but put all their cash into cars and skimp on everything else. or they buy a used car for cheap. you can never tell."

    And others have a lot and they have fleets of high price (over $100K) automobiles. So in essence we have:

    1. people with little acquiring inexpensive automobiles
    2. people with little acquiring expensive automobiles
    3. people with where-with-all acquiring inexpensive autmobiles
    4. people with where-with-all acquiring expensive automobiles

    Which makes you feel better?
  • mohatumohatu Member Posts: 21
    What a rhetorical question... Of course, it's always better to be young, rich and healthy than old, poor and sick.
    Everything else comes in between and depends on priorities, abilities and circumstances.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "What a rhetorical question... Of course, it's always better to be young, rich and healthy than old, poor and sick."

    Correct. And I'd rather be old, poor and sick than dead.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I'm hoping to be old, rich, healthy, driving an M6 and ummm, errr, how can I say this, ummm, "In the mood". ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
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