Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

shipo · March 2006

The TL has a 39.7 foot turning radius? Geez, even the 300C beats it by nearly a foot with a 38.9 rating.

catman2050 · March 2006

and the Avalon betters the TL by almost 3 feet...at a 330i-like 36.9.

but, of course, the Avalon isn't small and its not a sports sedan. to answer the original question, I'd go check out the 330i.

bhelsdon · March 2006

I love my TL, so don't get me wrong. The turning radius sucks. My partner and I laugh about it when we are in tight spaces. We call it our "little yacht". I have gotten very efficient at three point turns.

laurasdada · March 2006

I'll second that. The TL is fab, but it does have the turning raduis of, well, a Crown Vic! Other than that, it is powerful and maneuverable. But not a small car, either. Mid-size.

cdnpinhead · March 2006

Thanks for your post.

I've been searching for turning circle data for a number of cars, and your post filled in a couple of blanks. Besides which, the link absolutely rules in terms of comparative data. I was able to fill in a couple dozen more blanks in my Excel sheet with what I learned there, with more to come.

Thanks again.

kyfdx · March 2006

Except for the Avalon... all of the cars listed with short turning radii are RWD cars vs. the FWD Acura..

FWD geometry accounts for most of the difference.. couple that with aggressively wide tires, and it isn't surprising..

shipo · March 2006

Errr, how about the Audi A3 and A4? The are rated at 35.10' and 36.40' respectively. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

kyfdx · March 2006

Doesn't count... they aren't on the list above..

I'd tell you more... but, it would be off-topic..

nyccarguy · March 2006

Are known for their exceptionally wide turning radiuses. I practically have to make a 3 point turn to get into straight parking spaces with my Prelude. A small price to pay for great handling.

quasiactuary · March 2006

"Are known for their exceptionally wide turning radiuses. I practically have to make a 3 point turn to get into straight parking spaces with my Prelude. A small price to pay for great handling."

But why pay that price for great handling when you don't have to? The IS250, G35, 330i, A3, and A4 (to name a few) all handle at least as great as any Honda or Acura (many would say they handle better than any Honda or Acura)....and are much easier to park.

poodog13 · March 2006

Focusing in only on turning radius as a way of comparing these cars is inherantly unfair. While the TL may have a much larger turning radius, it is also a much larger car than the 3 series BMW. Add to that the 18" wheels and wide tread and that results in a wide turning radius.

Given the size difference, I see these cars being in the fringe of one another's class from a comparison perspective. I just bought a maxxed out Maxima SL that compares more directly with the TL and they are almost same in size, performance, and turning radius!

shipo · March 2006

"Add to that the 18" wheels and wide tread and that results in a wide turning radius."

Say what? The diameter of the wheel has nothing what-so-ever to do with turning radius. FWIW, the TL comes standard with 235/45 R17 mounted on 17" rims.

Best Regards,
Shipo

quasiactuary · March 2006

"Focusing in only on turning radius as a way of comparing these cars is inherantly unfair. While the TL may have a much larger turning radius, it is also a much larger car than the 3 series BMW. Add to that the 18" wheels and wide tread and that results in a wide turning radius.

Given the size difference, I see these cars being in the fringe of one another's class from a comparison perspective. I just bought a maxxed out Maxima SL that compares more directly with the TL and they are almost same in size, performance, and turning radius!"

I was focusing on turning radius as an objective measure of maneuverability. I certainly wouldn't buy a car strictly based on turning radius, but it goes into the equation for me.

And there isn't a size difference between the TL and the G35....both have 98 cubic feet of passenger volume (the 330i does only have 93). BTW - trunk volume of the TL is only 12.5 cubic feet compared with 14.8 for the G35 (330i is 12.0) so I could argue that the G35 is overall (passenger plus trunk) a larger car than the TL with a much smaller turning radius.

The TL is at a disadvantage in terms of maneuverability because of its front wheel drive design....not trying to reopen the front-vs-rear debate.

I think that the TL is a great overall car. I find myself in parking lots/garages fairly frequently so turning radius mades a difference to me. There are obviously good and bad points for all cars....turning radius is a bad point for the TL.

blueguydotcom · March 2006

I heard that the 335i will be sold solely as a coupe/convertible. If that is the case then I am not interested in the 335i.

It would be the 335ci then. I don't buy that for an instant. The i has been in need of a powerful sedan version since the e46 changeover. BMW screwed sedan drivers with the e46 M3. An e90 M3 sedan would be great but far too many people make an ignorant connection between 2 doors and sports cars v. 4 door cars. I'd much rather the stiffer chassis of a sedan and the framed window glass over the flexible design of the coupe and it's lousy window design.

blueguydotcom · March 2006

No, but your opinion of people that drive an AT does.

Nothing pompous about saying AT drivers are lazy. Seems to be a fact...most will cite "I drive in traffic." Wah-wah-wah.

blueguydotcom · March 2006

Neither the TL nor the E-class are LARGE cars and they're both maneuverable. Your point was??

Point of view. If an E46 feels large, then it's quite possible for some of us to find the the TL and E to be positively massive.

dewey · March 2006

My bad, I meant 335ci.

BMW is being presumptious not only in their connections between sport and two doors but also with non-sport and touring wagons.

If there was a BMW 330xi Touring or even better a 330i Touring (prefer rwd), I would have one in my garage right now. Unfortunately BMW only sells 325xi Touring and 530xi Touring wagons. Not my idea of excitement at all.

Or how about the 1 series hatchback wagon? Nope not here folks, we are going to have to settle for a 1 series coupe.

Shame, shame BMW! At least Audi caters to seekers who want more sport in their wagons by selling A4 3.2 and S4 Avants and ofcourse the A3 Quattro.

potemkin · March 2006

"It would be the 335ci then."

Rumor has it that BMW is dropping the "c" designation. I guess somebody in Munich figured out that there are other ways to determine whether it's a coupe or a sedan.

Counting the doors, perhaps?

Keep in mind, it's information I got second-hand, so it's not worth much.

neko608 · March 2006

Well at least we agree on something, Dewey!

Hatches are cool, I don't know what I'd do if I didn't have one hatchback to carry stuff in. I hate having to put a bunch of stuff in a conventional trunk, it's so cumbersome after using wagon for hauling things. Cheers.

dewey · March 2006

And here is another point we can agree upon:

It is a shame Lexus killed off the IS Crossover.

pearl · March 2006

I am surprised at how well Infiniti/Nissan have held the details on the upcoming G. Yes, we saw the likely coupe version displayed, but as far as I know, there are precious few technical details available on it, or the four-door which will be shown in NY in a few weeks. Some Japanese magazine speculated on a 3.7L engine, and supposedly, Nissan has trademarked G37, M37, etc, but we have heard nothing that I know of regarding specs on this engine or anything else (transmission, etc) about the new G. Nissan is almost Toyota-like on hiding the info this time.

habitat1 · March 2006

What, for Pete's sake, is all of this preoccupation with "turning radius"?

Unless you are directionally challenged and need to make repeated U-turns on narrow roads, I cannot imagine the average driver turning their steering wheel "lock to lock" frequently enough to have the turning radius be an issue. I have a TL (big) and a 911 (small) and I can honestly say that neither one of them can do a complete one shot U-turn on my street, and yet neither one of them has ever presented me with the slightest problem in DC's tightest underground parking garages.

cdnpinhead · March 2006

Some people carefully position their vehicles between the lines.

Others abandon them somewhere in the parking lot.

If the ability to do the former is at all important, turning radius enters the picture.

"Back in the day," when I was paid by the mile to drive, we usually referred to the trucks that weren't lined up properly as company drivers. FWIW, those who own their own tractors don't look too highly upon people who get paid by the hour (& appear to lack certain skills).

The ability to precisely position a vehicle is important to some of us.

Not so much to others.

"Give me 40 acres & I'll turn this rig around" has a point to make, but I very much appreciate not having to deal with it in my daily driver.

Those FWD fans who don't notice the difference would make great truck drivers.

habitat1 · March 2006

"Some people carefully position their vehicles between the lines.

Others abandon them somewhere in the parking lot.

If the ability to do the former is at all important, turning radius enters the picture."
______________________________________________
Well, damn, enter me into the parking Olympics! :surprise:
I have never, ever, had the remotest difficulty positioning my TL (or former FWD Maxima) between the lines of a parking space.

Either your pulling my leg on this, in which case I compliment your subtle humor. Or, you're actually serious, in which case I think you've really tipped the scale from the sublime to the completely absurd.

cdnpinhead · March 2006

I should have included two more words -- "more easily."

As in, "If the ability to do the former more easily is at all important. . ."

You are correct. It is possible to perfectly park any vehicle, given sufficient skill and/or time.

The pleasant thing, at least in my world, is to be able to turn on a dime, therefore do a number of things more quickly/easily.

Perhaps I'm looking for a reason why so many people park the way they do. It's a fool's mission, to be sure, given the number of people who don't use directional signals.

It all comes down to being considerate. . .or not.

habitat1 · March 2006

"Perhaps I'm looking for a reason why so many people park the way they do. It's a fool's mission, to be sure, given the number of people who don't use directional signals.

It all comes down to being considerate. . .or not."

Now there is something we can agree on - what possesses some people to park as though they are mentally and physically challenged, I'll never know.

Just this weekend, I was out with the girls in our 911. I'm not the type that will park in the next zip code, but I will pull tight against the curb on a space that is on the right side of a set. Gives the car next to my left plenty of room and (usually) takes me out of range of thier passenger door. Did that in the corner of a restaurant parking lot on Saturday. Came out to find the only other car in the section, a FX35, immediately on my left a full two feet into my parking space, making it impossible for me to open my door wide enough to access the back seat. Intentional, who knows? But as I was loading both of my kids into the back from the passenger side, guy pulls up in a utility van and says "looks like you need help". He then pulls in tight next to the drivers side of the Infiniti with about 3" to spare and has his buddy back into the space I'm vacating. There was no way anyone was getting inside that Infiniti except through the rear hatch. Not something I would encourage in front of my kids, but I definitely got a kick out of it.

cdnpinhead · March 2006

Excellent!

nj356 · March 2006

I am looking at a 325XI list $38,595.00, my net $36,847.00. Has premium, auto, cold weather and satellite prep. Can I do better. I am in NJ. Price is from Flemington

starman98 · March 2006

Yea thats an insult to Abrams Tanks.

blueguydotcom · March 2006

Parking makes me nuts! I left my car in my company's parking structure sunday. The place was totally empty and I parked 10 spaces from the elevator. When I returned with a friend some !#$%er parked right next to my car. He had the entire structure and much closer spots to the elevator.

Argh...still mad thinking about it.

dougiex · April 2006

I feel your pain.....I just noticed a new kink in the side of my G35 and no idea where this comes from...and its quite deep too....I am the person that would park in the next postal code in a parking lot...drop off my passengers and then go park, or pull into those end spots and park really close to the side without a sparking spot. I sometimes park at the back of the lot with many empty spots to the left and right and empty rows to the back and front and people still park beside my car ????. No reason ever for anyone to be even close to my car...but somehow they find themselves there and batter the heck out of my car....sometimes I think my car must be a big magnet that just pull other cars in wherever I park.

dfc3 · April 2006

Count me as a turning radius enthusiast. In 25 years of driving, I never was concerned about it - never even thought about it. Of course, for 14 years of that 25, I had a car which had a tight (32') turning radius. I can't find any decent cars on the market that can match that today. Well... anyway, when I got my most recent car, the turning radius is between 39' and 40'. I'm appalled. I live in an urban area. I can't make tight turns. It takes 3 tries to get into parking spaces that I used to do in 1. I have now added turning radius tightness as a major consideration in the cars I'm looking at.

bdr127 · April 2006

I am the person that would park in the next postal code in a parking lot...drop off my passengers and then go park, or pull into those end spots and park really close to the side without a sparking spot. I sometimes park at the back of the lot with many empty spots to the left and right and empty rows to the back and front and people still park beside my car ????. No reason ever for anyone to be even close to my car...but somehow they find themselves there and batter the heck out of my car....sometimes I think my car must be a big magnet that just pull other cars in wherever I park.

For whatever reason, cars that are conspicuously parked far away become a target for animosity.... I think some people viewed it as "snobby" and assume the owner thinks "my car is so good that it doesn't deserve to be near the commoners' cars." Whether that is the owner's intent or not, some other driver just have to lash out and be jerks.

Obviously the car being parked far away isn't hurting anyone. In fact, it actually leaves more closer spaces open! It's really a cowardly act since there is often a low likelyhood that they'll get caught... Oh well... :confuse:

nicetry · April 2006

You guys sound like you are the only ones that want to park far away from others? My take on it is the majority who park close to you in those far away spots do so because they also want to get away from the ones that don't care about door dings and feel you may be considerate enough to not ding their car.

With that said, there are still some idiots out there that aren't considerate and want to park next to a nice vehicle just to annoy you - although I believe they are far and few between simply because they are too lazy to walk

newcarman · April 2006

Anyone have any info on the new 2007 G35 sedan>>?? When will the car be available at dealers??

How much redisgned will be be over the existing G35?? I hope its better!!!!!!!!!! even though i like this car too.

I want to buy a G35 sedan but the main question is should i wait to when the 2007 comes out or go with the present G35. Any ideas people??

dewey · April 2006

Patience is a virtue in this case. Wait. I am sure the new G37 will be far more exciting in terms of performance/handling than the current model.

reasanaii · April 2006

Plus the interior...

rumor says that it will be somewhat closer to the new M series

which is awesome...

usn_tl · April 2006

Believe or not I was driving my 06 TL eastbound on CA-101 towards Los Angeles when I noticed what seemed to be an updated G35 sedan. It had a 3-digit license plate so I know it was a tester. It was diamond graphite/black leather and the exterior looked similar to the 06 G35 Sedan except it had dual exhaust outlets (like the 06 G35 Coupe) and a roof mounted antenna similar to the current BMW 3Series. I had a quick glanced at the interior (limited visibility) and it had a Navi similar to the 06 G.

If this was going be the 07 model, it would be the coolest G35 Sedan to date, IMO. Sorry wasn't able to snap a picture

vchiu · April 2006

But the 330i Touring is on the European Price list already. Do you mean BMW don't plan to import it to Canada/US!? This wouldn't be smart. The touring is much more practical and does not force you to go for a heavier X3!

dewey · April 2006

You are correct.

Unfortunately the only way I can own a 330i Touring is to immigrate to Europe. And here in N. America the X3 or X5 are not my kind of vehicles since I live and work in downtown and always drive on paved city roads/highways.

vchiu · April 2006

I can't Get it. if the 330i is imported already, then getting an import/road licence for the Wagon version should be possible souldn't it? How can BMW N/A can overlook this?

isn't it possible to import upon one-off order or through a "European Delivery" programme?

For me, the wagon is a simple variation of the Sedan (size and weight very close) how wouldn't it be possible to import the wagon?? This is a real deal breaker, as the Wagon is sooo practical in comparison to the Sedan ( I moved coutless of stuff and have kids) without compromising the handling and performance/mpg too much.

X3 is 250Kg too heavy and has low MPG. Don't even mention X5. 7/S/A8 have MUCH better MPG with same powertrains. No need to further comment

runningmom · April 2006

Hi. this is a great website. glad I found it. My husband and I decided we need to get another car given my outback can't be in two places at the same time and his '67 MGB--WHICH HAS BEEN IN THE GARAGE SINCE WE GOT MARRIED--isn't about to leave it soon, at least not in my lifetime. So as we were about to sign on the dotted line for an Avalon last weekend, we came to our senses in time and decided we weren't ready for the grave yet. So what do you buy when you don't want to end up with the babyboomers version of your parents' Pontiac? A G35coupe of course. Since this is a website for owners, surely you'll understand the logic.
I haven't seen much discussion about the 06, so I'm hoping someone can enlighten me. Have the paint problems been resolved? have they upgraded the rotors? I am completely confused about the tires. I know we will need to buy snows--we live in Boston, and I've been traumatized since driving school a million years ago about hydroplanning in the rain, so what's the best tire strategy. Since I can't read a map, I like the idea of a nav system, but I don't like it that my husband can't reprogram it while I'm driving. Does this mean i should get a Magellean at Costco and defile the dash with it? Biggest question, and one that's been asked in another forum I think, should we wait until the 07 come out (and when is that?). We're planning on leasing. I'm thinking we should go ahead with the 06, allow time for the problems in the 07 to surface, and trade in for the 08, or something like that. Is there conventional wisdom about this?
Please advise. Thanks.

mnrep2 · April 2006

The paint is soft on most new cars,although it sounds like some posters have run into a relatively small batch of G35's that have problems with the clear coat. You would need snow tires with the coupe. Stay away from the G NAV option. For that money there are much better aftermarket solutions. The brake problems were nothing more than high performance pads that shed a lot of dust and wore out quickly. The 06 models have gone to a different type of pad. The new coupe will be out in 2007. If you did a two year lease now you could get the next generation model after it has been on the market for a year

Why don't you look at and then test drive the G35x. You have AWD, (when you need it) four doors and pretty great performance and handling. I own a 05 X and love it. The only option I wish I didn't buy was the NAV, otherwise I am very pleased with this car.

dewey · April 2006

Unfortunately BMW does not have an ED programme for Canadians. I believe in the USA the BMW ED programme is restricted to cars that are sold in US dealerships.

Nobody in this forum seems to share our views on wagons. And that is not so bad for you as it is for me since I am on the wrong side of the ocean.

I love the European selection of turbodiesels and wagons. In this continent there is very little buyer interest for such vehicles.

When you say the word wagon or hatchback, many here think of their father's Ford LTD station wagon or their mother's Chevy Vega .

And the word diesel arouses thoughts of those horrendous GM diesels that were sold in the 80s.

At least MB and Audi provides a wider selection of wagons than the pitiful selection from BMW.

dewey · April 2006

We're planning on leasing. I'm thinking we should go ahead with the 06, allow time for the problems in the 07 to surface, and trade in for the 08, or something like that. Is there conventional wisdom about this?

I am waiting to test drive and maybe buy the new Infiniti G37? Am I concerned about first year model issues. Absolutely not. Every car I bought was a first year model from a German luxury marque and there have been no issues whatsoever. I am confident there will be non-issues with the upcoming Infiniti.

And what if there is an issue? If it's under warranty it will be fixed and become a non-issue, at least that is the case if you dont buy a VW or a Range Rover.

vchiu · April 2006

Yes, we are on the same line. Germany is my place to be with second hand wagons very easy to find.

Well for me, I am based in China now and neither Audi nor BMW nor MB import wagons here. People buy such brands for social status, so 'utilitarian' models are excluded.

Moreover, there are heavy import taxes. a C230K Sedan will cost you US$85K. Can't even imagine paying such a price for any car.

So I still think there is always worse than bad

bdr127 · April 2006

Really good and informative article on BMW and their new technologies and future plans.

Autoweek Article

bdr127 · April 2006

Sorry for the cross-post... (Posted in ELLPS, LPS, and HELM) Since the news applies to all of these cars, didn't want to leave anybody out! :P

BMW Announces New iPod Interface With Expanded Model Availability and Features

blueguydotcom · April 2006

...Look at an Avalon anyway. Sort of a big car aimed at older folks with a more reserved driving style.

shipo · April 2006

Not that I'm any fan of Toyota, however, a holed A/C condensor is neither all that unusual or indicative of poor design. Similarly, being required to pay for the repairs is not an indication of poor service as this type of repair is normally covered under your comprehensive insurance. Call your insurance agent and let us know what you find out.

Best Regards,
Shipo

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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