Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

davids5 · April 2006

I am stationed in Germany and am a big MB fan.The MB C class is a great car and has received a face lift last year in Germany and most important a new line of motors to include a v6 C350 which in Germany is rated at 272hp and I believe you can get a 6 speed manuel with it.And about two weeks ago I had heard that MB and Bosch have developed a new fuel injection system that would give the 350 motor (3.7 liter) over 290 hp. They also have a couple of awsome V8's out 450(330-345hp) 500 (388hp)and the AMG63with around 515 hp and torque that will break your head off your neck............

cc12359 · April 2006

Can these handle better than a NSX?

qbrozen · April 2006

i know he said "any", but it is a SEDAN board, so we should assume he meant any in this category.

besides, that post was over a month ago.

primetime79 · May 2006

Let me preface my post by unequivocally stating the mere facts. I am not an automobile professional. I have no loyalty to any automobile manufacturer. I enjoy a exhilirating driving experience.

Three years ago (2003), I was in the market for a sedan that had a certain level of sport and luxury. I narrowed my search to four cars. 1.) BMW 330I 2.) Audi A4 1.8T 3.) Lexus Is 300 4.) Infinity G 35 . Quickly this search was down to two as the Lexus IS 300 had absolutely nothing to offer in the form a luxury offering and the Infinity was much of the same although not to Lexus extreme. The "feel" of the steering wheel and all other components of the Inifity made it quite apparent that the build quality of this car was not up to par. So it was down to two cars, The BMW 330I and the Audi A4 1.8T. The 330I was much faster than the A4, but to me it lacked the handling prowlness of the A4. Maybe it's me, but the 330I was not impressive at all. I felt like it was a regular family sedan. I have nothing against BMW, but sometimes I wonder if sometimes their maybe a little bit of brainwashing or speaking something to existent, with the over hyped driving (handling) experience. For me it came down to the getting the best car for ME. The A4 exemplified te best handling (feedback), the best interior. The build quality on this car was impeccable.

Unfortunately due to circumstance beyond my control (wife) I had to trade in my Audi a year ago for a SUV. Fast forward to the present, and I have been blessed to make the same purchase decision again. Again it came down to the eact same 4 cars with a little thought given to the Acura TSX. But after a close up encounter with the TSX , while the car is a phenomenal value it was apparent is was nothing more than that a "phenomenal value". So i test drove the same 4 cars again. The Infinity now with the 6MT was a nice car but lacked in the same area interior refinement and the short throw clutch felt like my brothers 95 Mitsubishi Eclipse (cheap). Next on the list was the Audi. The new Audi A4 had undergone some minor changes most notably HP improvement. Overall the car was better than the one I once had, but suprisingly was 6k more similiarly equipped. This posed a problem.

It was then down to two cars the IS 350 and the 330I. Lots of people do not like the new 330I exterior. But I think while it may not be a sporty as the IS per se, it is definielty more profounding and unique. As usual when I went for my test drive of the BMW i walked into the dealership and was treated as an outkast. I guess this car either sells itself, or I did not look like the typical BMW client ready to make a purchase. In my usual car shopping attire I wore shorts, flip flops and a white wife-beater shirt with my bling bling on. Finally someone came to help me and I was in the BMW 330I. First glance of the 330I interior I did know what to think. After 30 seconds of looking at it, this understated interior started looking growingly bland. Once on the road, I could not figure out what all this Hoopla was about. Immediately I went straight to Lexus dealership to figure out what changes Lexus made to the IS. At first glance I fell in love with it's beauty. I then told the sales person order me a black on black with navi, but it has to be manual. It was at that time my heart was broken. No manual for 350. Never had I ever thought, I would own a sports/luxury car that was not manual. But the sales person was adamant that I at least try it out. The rest is history. I am a proud owner of a IS 350 Crystal White Navi. This car is not only super quick but handles excellent. I have driven it several times with the VDIM off and it makes a huge difference. Around corners with the VDIM on it cuts the throttle to quickly. I must advise the average driver to be careful, because this is a RWd car and they tend to spin out rather quickly. But after two weeks of owning it I am extremely ecstatic about my decision. I personally think BMW might be overhyped, Audi are underpowered, Infiiniti are built with less interior refinement and overall build quailty. Lexus Is 350 for me at least is the perfect blend, if you do not want to buy the car do not test drive it!!!!!!!!!

p.s sorry I am a little long winded

pgsmith · May 2006

My experience @ BMW was similar. Obviously I did not conform to their image of a BMW owner having worn a t-shirt and shorts into their showroom. They wasted no time in regaling stories of who they knew when I explained where I worked (Ho-hum, I was there to see the vehicles). After we spent (too much) time in the the salesman's cubicle, I learned they did not have a car with the equipment they learned I might be wanting, but they would happily order it for me.

I said great, but I wanted to actually drive a car to see if the car was really what I would like. I was told that:
1. They did not even have a car that had an automatic (wife's requirement, not mine) I could test drive (which I saw later the same day on the lot). :confuse:
2. They would not let me test drive a red car since I was not interested in red and that would put miles on a car someone else would buy. :confuse:
3. They had a blue one waiting to be prepped. When I indicated that it might be OK to accept blue, The vehicle was not prepped even within a week, at which point I had to "make them" let me test drive the red one. :confuse:

End results:
1. I was offended by their arrogance. :mad:
2. I was not very impressed by the vehicle.
3. I bought a competitors vehicle (C280), which I am happy with.
4. I will continue to vehicle shop in the future in shorts, jeans, t-shirts, flip-flops, running shoes, as this will help me decide about they ability of the dealership to be confident in the car not try to sell the "image".
5. I will leave immediately any dealer who gives me this type of treatment in the future.

redsoxgirl · May 2006

I respect your right to have the opinion that the IS350 is the right car for you, but I strongly disagee that it is even close to the "best luxury/sport sedan" on any objective basis.

Clearly you have a different definition of "sport" than I do as it pertains to how a car accelerates, handles, steers, brakes, performs - as well as how connected to the road and driver it is. As evidence:

The 330I was much faster than the A4, but to me it lacked the handling prowlness of the A4.

How anyone could conclude the "handling prowess" of a 60/40 imbalanced FWD A4 is superior to that of the 50/50 balanced RWD 330i is an enigma. Are you sure you weren't overly enamored with the interior of the A4 to forget to put it through a serious test drive against the 330i?

Never had I ever thought, I would own a sports/luxury car that was not manual. But the sales person was adamant that I at least try it out. The rest is history.

Again, perhaps having come out of a 170 hp A4, you were enamored with the 300+ hp IS350. But that automatic transmission removes any "sport" there might have been in the car for me. Sorry, drag racing doesn't fit my driving style.

I have never owned a BMW and I am not sure I ever will. But in searching for a compact to mid size sport sedan to replace my Boxster S this fall, the IS350 doesn't make the long list, let alone the short list on the "sport" criteria. Great little luxury car, perhaps. True sport sedan compared to the 3-series, no way. At least not for me.

primetime79 · May 2006

Just ought of curiousity. Have you ever test driven the IS 350 before. Because the paddle shifters in sport mode on this car is butter smooth. The car has excellent steering feel. My only complaint is the VDIM killing the throttle to early when the wheel starts losing traction. I guess I am just curious how 9/10 reviewers can say the IS wins in 95% of objective measures and then say the BMW handles/feels/brakes better and declare them a winner.

redsoxgirl · May 2006

Just ought of curiousity. Have you ever test driven the IS 350 before. Because the paddle shifters in sport mode on this car is butter smooth.

Yes, I've driven the IS350. My cousins own a Lexus dealership and they will sell me one (or any Lexus model) for their cost, so I had hoped to like it. The IS350 is a decent automatic. But it's an automatic. It's probably better than BMW steptronic, comparable to the Mercedes/AMG "manumatic" and not as good as the Porsche tiptronic. And I would never own one of those. I wouldn't even be happy with the BMW M3 "SMG" transmission. It's not an "objective" performance thing for me, it's a subjective feel, control and driving enjoyment. If you are enough of a "driver" to have tested the limits of the VDIM and don't like that interference, I am surprised you don't agree, but that's your perogative.

I am just curious how 9/10 reviewers can say the IS wins in 95% of objective measures and then say the BMW handles/feels/brakes better and declare them a winner.

I think your curiosity stems from thinking that 2 or 3 objective performance measures capture the entire essence of driving feel and enjoyment - and even true performance - for everybody. Gross oversimplification. As a management consultant, I spend 60 hours a week boiling down complex business strategy and financial issues to a few spreadsheets, graphs and Power Point slides. But at the end of the day, I can immediately tell you what executives "get it" and what ones don't, by how much they go behind the numbers rather than focus on them. So the last thing I'm going to do is pick my next car by looking in the back of Car and Driver or Road and Track at a bunch of statistics without spending a lot of time in the drivers seat froming my own subjective opinions.

primetime79 · May 2006

Apparently we have a few things in common as I too am a financial/management professional (Senior Investment Analyst). I honestly felt exactly the same way you did about automatics before I test drove the IS 350. This is the first automatic I have ever owned. The reason I don't have any significant issues with the VDIM is because it only comes into play when I feel like driving the car to it's limit (2% of the time). And besides as I mentioned you can easily turn it off in 15 seconds by starting the car with the parking brakes then tapping the brakes twice then the park brakes twice then the brakes twice. This takes no more than 15 seconds.I love my 350 dearly, however my first choice would have been the M3 if I was only patient enough to wait for the new M3 to come out.

cdnpinhead · May 2006

It's not just BMW.

I was put off, long-term, five years ago when I stopped in at a Lexus store during my lunch break. I didn't come in wearing flip-flops or a t-shirt, but endured indifferent treatment all the same.

Even if the I250/350 was worthy (which it isn't, for me), I'd think (at least) twice about ever darkening the doorstep of a Lexus dealer again.

I'm sure most are better.

Mine, here in Phoenix, wasn't. That Lexus service thing is something I read about -- I certainly didn't experience it.

neko608 · May 2006

I don't think it has anything to do with the make, but it's all about the dealership. I went to Motorwerks BMW and Woodfield Lexus (both in Chicago area) and they were all great.

v_lad · May 2006

I was searching for a sedan in 30-35k price range recently and got to test drive lexus. The dealer talked me into trying automatic (i was very surprised they don't have manual with this engine). After getting into it I saw nice pad-shifters and was prepared for a good impression. But after a minute a realized that you can't control CURRENT gear of your car - you only limit your MAXIMUM gear. you don't even know the gear that's currently on!
My current automatic Subaru Legacy(165hp) is more sportier in that aspect (it always shows the actual gear that's on). I can't say anything about handling - I simply hadn't got that far with a test drive. It's a luxury, but not anywhere near sport regardless of numbers. Someone at Lexus should be fired for that type of design.

blueguydotcom · May 2006

Just ought of curiousity. Have you ever test driven the IS 350 before. Because the paddle shifters in sport mode on this car is butter smooth.

And molasses slow. Try a double downshift at 65 with the tranny in 6th. That move - i'd really go triple most of the time - takes 5 seconds in the IS350. It was excrutiating. I wanted power...the computer didn't want to give it to me.

The car has excellent steering feel.

If you like numb, then yes, it's excellent. If you want to feel the road through the wheel, the IS350 is too isolated.

I guess I am just curious how 9/10 reviewers can say the IS wins in 95% of objective measures and then say the BMW handles/feels/brakes better and declare them a winner.

Because they like to drive. I find the e90's exterior bland. Doesn't matter...I don't buy for how it looks on the outside. The interior's okay - but it's not driver centric enough. The place where the e90 shines against the current competition - balance, handling, driver-feedback. Driving, there's no other sport sedan that feels the same right now. Or better. Bummer. At 140+ on the autobahn my e90 feels buttoned down and lets me know everything going on. That makes the car worth owning.

Drive the Is350 hard and it becomes really clear it's not a sport sedan. It's a luxury cruiser with a big engine.

The 07 G35 may finally be some competition for the 330i. Of course the 07 335i with 300 hp and 300 ft-lbs of torque from 1400-5000rpm will be hard to be in any fashion.

fedlawman · May 2006

"it's a subjective feel, control and driving enjoyment.

From your posts I can see you are a descriminating enthusiast who wants a sports car experience wrapped in a luxury sedan body.

Take another look at the sedans in this "entry-lux" class - they weigh 3500 lbs and have so much active/passive safety equipment that they practically drive themselves.

In my opinion, the car you are looking for doesn't exist.

corvettefan427 · May 2006

What do you all think of the Cadillac CTS?

laurasdada · May 2006

Having never driven one because of the following, imho:

Credit to Caddy for beginning to define/redefine itself with the CTS. However, the overdone, unattractive exterior and cheap looking, disjointed in design interior along with the window sticker sent me quickly on my way the first time I encountered the CTS. Now, I may be missing a great ride, but I truly enjoy a nicely styled exterior and an interior that suits me is a must. While the interior does not have to be of the ultimate in materials, I do want a logical and attractive layout (as a reference, Audi and Lexus do interiors right in my book) as, of course, that is where I spend my time driving. The CTS (which may have been upgraded since last I looked?) I found quite lacking, especially given the asking price. But, I find all Cadillac models a bit aggressive in their prices. Hence rebates and "Employee Pricing..."

I chose the Acura TL as FWD is not a four letter word to me. I grew up with FWD (Saab, Honda, Mitsu, Renault!, VW...) and appreciate the snow country advantage (New Englnader & avid skier). I believe that Honda/Acura produces the best handling FWDs out there (and I know some RWD afficionados would consider that statement an oxymoron!) which suits me just fine. I may lose out to
RWD at 9 or 10/10ths, but that is really just not an issue to me. In my comparison shopping, the TL offered the best combo of style, luxury, sport, economy, power and value.

Maybe the next CTS will be a more suitable candidate.

corvettefan427 · May 2006

The new CTS should address the current models interior. Based on spy photos I've seen, and a review I read from a journalist who saw the car and described the interior as outstanding. As far as the exterior, if you don't like Caddy's styling theme, you probably still won't like the new one, although I think now that the styling has been introduced, it may be slightly more ''organic'' for 2008, although it's hard to tell.

shipo · May 2006

I've seen all of the spy shots and artistic renditions that have come out and, so far at least, the new CTS is a non-starter for me. Is it better than the original? I suppose, although that is kind of like asking who is better, Osama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein.

Best Regards,
Shipo

davids5 · May 2006

I am not sure that most people are on the same page here. Most people may have their own definition of what a sport sedan is and what sporty driving is. Working for the USAF in Europe, active duty and civilian duty I feel that I have a good idea of what sporty driving and what a sports sedan is. have almost 23 years of driving experience in Europe and 20 of them in Germany.To me sporty driving isn't 0-60 spurts or 1/4 mile drag races,probably most of these so called sport sedans are not even equipped with the proper tires for high speed sporty driving. While most Americans come over here for the first time with their so called sport sedans and wagens and think 80mph is fast when driving well over 100 mph is a daily and normal ocurance over here.You dont see American Ford, GM,Honda,Toyota,etc burning up the track.Many ruin there vehicles or even kill themselves trying to keep up and prove something against the real high speed and sport vehicles like MB,BMW,Audi-VW (VAG)and of course Porsche.I feel that most have been brain washed and are easily sold on bells and sirens,dodads and smoke and mirror tricks that really dont do a thing for true performance and true longevity of a vehicle. I dont give a damn if one car has a better DVD-CD changer than the other car or has 20 cup holders.Our American car industry needs to start building good solid dependable vehicles starting with high powered engines that dont spend most of its time at the garage or at the gas station because its such a gas hog.Off base here in Germany a gallon of gas cost $6.86.They build powerfull engines over here that use very little gas and last and gives you years of satisfaction......

redsoxgirl · May 2006

Sorry, but after another test drive late yesterday, I am even more convinced the IS350 is not for me.

In my opinion, if Lexus were serious about "sport" they would have a manaul 6-speed or at least fast shifting SMG. Blueguydotcom is right, this is a painfully slow downshifting transmission for anyone who really prefers the control of picking their own gear at any time.

But even with a manual transmission, I still think the suspension and steering feedback are a couple of rungs down from BMW. I hate to say it - because I don't like the car - but the G35 was better in that regard.

Lastly, re-read your "15 second solution" to overly interfering VDIM. Porsche has a button. BMW has a button. This is not a solution from a comapnay that has any serious intention of backing up their "sport" marketing with the real thing.

The Lexus IS350 is a nice car for someone other than me.

fedlawman · May 2006

"To me sporty driving isn't 0-60 spurts or 1/4 mile drag races"

I tend to agree with you for the most part, but I don't think you can generalize "Americans" as a whole. Historically, Europeans have placed a higher value on handling than straight-line speed, but things have changed today. American cars today handle as well as they accelerate, and todays European cars have placed an emphasis on 0-60 and 1/4 mile performance - why do you think that is?

The roads here are different, as are the laws (because our society is different). As a result, driving is different here. So, while I agree overall that European cars tend to perform better than American cars, let me play devil's advocate here and consider some current American cars -

Although they're not my cup of tea personally, I could go to a dealer tomorrow and purchase a 2006 Corvette or Cadillac STS for less than $40,000. Are they as good as the European "equivalent?" Not likely, but they are outstanding cars in their segment and cost 1/2 to 1/3 the price of a "comparable" European car.

The Corvette may not have the elegance and refinement of a Porsche 911, but on a twisty road or racetrack, they're pretty comparable. Both are rewarding to drive and own in their own way - a personal choice.

The Cadillac vs. Mercedes is a similar comparison. I've been driving an S-Class Mercedes for 2 years now (company car) and, while it is a very substantial car and suprememly comfortable, it's not at all rewarding to drive from a performance perspective. It floats over the road with light, overboosted steering, and rolls hard in corners. I haven't driven the Cadillac, but I can't imagine it's significantly worse than the M-B.

So, while I personlly prefer and own European cars (I have an E30 BMW M3 and a Volvo V70), I can understand why someone might enjoy the performance and personality of American cars for what they offer the driver - especially on our poorly maintained, poorly designed American roads.

redsoxgirl · May 2006

From your posts I can see you are a descriminating enthusiast who wants a sports car experience wrapped in a luxury sedan body.

In my opinion, the car you are looking for doesn't exist.

Almost, but not quite. I realize that nothing I buy in sedan or coupe format is going to match the driving experience I now enjoy with a real sports car. But I'm also not looking for the "luxury" side to be at the expense of the "sport" side.

I have driven a friend's previous generation BMW M3 sedan and it would fit my bill. And it "only" has 240 horsepower, 60+ short of the IS350, but the true overall performance (given what I'm looking for) is miles above the Lexus. He is considering selling it and even though I've never bought a used car, he has been so meticulous about its care and maintenance, I'm very tempted.

allargon · May 2006

This is somewhat off-topic discussing European vehicle superiority, but nearly every manufacturer you mentioned has a horrible reliability record. MB, VW and Audi are notorious. 20 years ago American cars had horrible reliability ratings. Most don't think that is the case now. Buick and Cadillac surpass Infiniti and Acura in quality according to JDP. European cars (and maybe Chinese cars) are now the ones known for lacking reliability. What good is the great driving ability of the car if it's always in the shop?

Back to the topic, I love the exterior styling of the CTS. If you want an exterior that doesn't offend (or provoke any emotion), the Infiniti G35 sedan is for you. The exterior of the new 3 series doesn't do it for me, but it provokes emotion.

Unless one wants to spend a significant amount of moolah aftermarketing the interior of the CTS (or even the G35), the current kings of the segment seem to be the IS350 and the 3 series.

IMHO, value wise the CTS, G35 and the TL are the leaders of the cars in this segment as they are midsize vehicles compared to the compacts that are the A4, the 3 series, the C class and the Lexus IS. They are on the lower end of the price scale, too as the CTS and G35 both dip into the high 20's.

(Anyone know why the Saab 9-3 and the Jaguar X-type aren't subjects for this forum?)

blueguydotcom · May 2006

Do they even make the 9-3 and X type anymore? lol

As for your question about shop time v. driving, I'll take absolute fun for a day and nothing for a week over decent fun all the time. So my 03 330i may be in the shop more than my friends 03 G35 but my 03 330i is more fun than his car - even he admits it. My 06 330i isn't as involving as my 03 so maybe my view will change.

But given the lackluster competition, it's tough to see how I could opt for milquetoast (IS350, A4) over fun.

Maybe the 07 G35 - much better interior, better engine, supposedly bettersuspension - will be the competition the 3 series has lacked for over 20 years.

Then again, my eyes are already on 08 for a 335i sedan with that turbo...yummy.

dhamilton · May 2006

with ya on the milk-toast A4 comment. It's one of the most fun cars I've driven. To each his own, but the time I spent in a 330 with sport, and manual wasn't all that and a bag of chips. The A4 on the other hand was more complete IMO. I realize that's not neccisarily the popular opinion around here, but I would take the A4 over the bimmer.

fedlawman · May 2006

"I have driven a friend's previous generation BMW M3 sedan and it would fit my bill."

Believe it or not, in the first draft of my last post I wrote that you should consider an E36 M3 (and the Subaru STI and Mitsubishi EVO). I edited my post down to size and removed that remark.

The E36 is the first 3-series that moved upmarket and became "luxurious," but by modern standards, it's still lightweight and nimble.

They're not the best built car BMW ever produced (a result of BMW cost-cutting attempts), but they do possess a good blend of sports car dynamics and everyday comfort.

Good luck with whatever you decide...

blueguydotcom · May 2006

dhamilton, any time you wanna visit a track or even a really curvy road, I'm game.

The A4's nose-heavy and Audi's AWD system binds too much for my liking. Yes a chipped 2.0 is a blast as far as engines go but the chassis' not up to snuff for driving hard.

primetime79 · May 2006

I am going to have to agree with dhamilton here. I owned an a4 1.8T before and have driven my brother's 06 325I numerous times. A4 is way superior in many facets. The 3 series (excluding the M3) in particular and BMW in general is vastly overated. I think the media and hence the BMW owners ovesensationalize their experience with BMW and therefore this so-called "driving experience" is almost spoken into existence. Don't get me wrong I think BMW is one of the best luxury/sports manafacturers but they are not head and shoulders better than Audi and other respectables manufacturers that they aspire to compete with. As a matter fact most polls of Europeans perceptions of BMW/AUDI would actually put Audi head and shoulders over BMW.

blueguydotcom · May 2006

my brother's 06 325I numerous times. A4 is way superior in many facets. The 3 series (excluding the M3) in particular and BMW in general is vastly overated. I think the media and hence the BMW owners ovesensationalize their experience with BMW and therefore this so-called "driving experience" is almost spoken into existence. Don't get me wrong I think BMW is one of the best luxury/sports manafacturers but they are not head and shoulders better than Audi and other respectables manufacturers that they aspire to compete with. As a matter fact most polls of Europeans perceptions of BMW/AUDI would actually put Audi head and shoulders over BMW.

All that writing and you never actually mentioned how the A4 1.8T is better to drive...what's better, the front nose bias? the FWD or binding AWD? the heaviness of the A4? the lack of power? The understeer? The sloppy VW/Audi manual? The numb steering?

moose123 · May 2006

I'll let you both know what I think about this, in a few months. I currently drive an A4 (98) quattro, with 6 cyl., and will soon take delivery of the 325i rwd. The A4 has been superb! It has sufficient speed, perhaps could use some more though, it handles very nicely on curves -- and also at 85 with unanticipated quick lane changes (for safety reasons). The interior is simply amazing (unless you are stuck in the back). I suspect, and hope, that the 325 will handle a bit sharper, and be a bit quicker (it better, it has 8 years on the Audi, and much fatter tires). It will be interesting to see where I end up on this debate. Perhaps if the stars are aligned, I'll end up thinking both are some of the best cars out there....

shipo · May 2006

Did you get the Sport Package? If you didn't you very well might be disappointed with the handling of your new 325i.

Best Regards,
Shipo

dhamilton · May 2006

I've only driven the 1.8 for about 20 minutes so I can't comment to much on it. I have driven both the BMW 330, 325, and both Audi engines [2.0T, 3.2.] To me the clutch in the BMW is rubbery and feels a bit vague as to when it's going to engage/disengage. I do think that there was better road feedback with the steering wheel but the downside to that is a nervousness that while on the track might be ok, but for daily driving is tiresome. I think the seats in the Audi were far superior.
The thing is, bimmers are set up to not understeer, and with better weight distribution can carry more speeds in to corners. That's great, but I probably won't be there. I used to want an S4 for a track/everyday car [still kinda do] and had one on order but a family tragedy put that on hold for a while. BMW's are the hot thing right now, and for good reason. They got Audi licked on the car to take to the track on the way home. To me Audi is the better car to live with on a daily basis. Besides, something/someone is always faster. Tell you what, I'll meet you at the track with my neighbors 04 supercharged cobra with numerous suspension, and engine mods. Then you can meet me with your neighbors blah, blah blah.

v_lad · May 2006

I'm really interested in what people have to say about this sedan. It's not as luxuryous as other cars discussed here, but I'm more interested about a review of perfomance part.

kdshapiro · May 2006

"I'll meet you at the track with my neighbors 04 supercharged cobra with numerous suspension, and engine mods"

Different cars for different jobs. You can take that supercharged cobra to the dirt track and rallye with a modded STI that will kick the Cobras butt. That same STI will demolish cars twice the price.

There is always someone/something faster.

moose123 · May 2006

I did, but I thought about it alot because of the pain of getting winter tires. How does it handle without it?

shipo · May 2006

My E46 didn't have the Sport Package and I thought it was "okay", however, when I swapped cars for a day with an individual that had one with the SP I was stunned at the difference. I ordered my E39 a couple of months later and made damn sure the SP option was checked off. ;-)

As for the E90, I've not driven a non-SP car, however, I would imagine that the differences would be just as apparent. FWIW, I too need winter tires and fortunately I have a place to store the off-season set, that and it doesn't bother me to have to swap them twice per year.

Keep us posted on how you like your car. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

fedlawman · May 2006

"it doesn't bother me to have to swap them twice per year."

I couldn't agree more. I can't fathom buying a BMW and not getting the SP (OK, if they plan on aftermarket Bilsteins and Eibachs, I might forgive them

).

The performance sacrifices of all-season tires are not worth suffering for the convenience of not installing snow tires in the winter.

I probably swap my 15" and 17" wheels back and forth at least a half-dozen times a year. It requires a jack, torque wrench, and about 15 minutes of my time - what's the big deal?

kominsky · May 2006

"I probably swap my 15" and 17" wheels back and forth at least a half-dozen times a year."

Whoa... do you put the winters on just for actual snow events and then take them back off when the roads are dry? :surprise:

gordonwd · May 2006

I moved from a '98 A4 1.8T Quattro to a '04 (non-sport)325i, so feel qualified to make a comparison. The 325i, IMO, is superior to the A4 in most every way that counts to me (except for driving in the snow on stock all-season tires). It's not nearly as much contrast as what blueguy says, but we all know that he tends to be somewhat -- shall we say? -- strong in his opinions.

First off, the difference in horsepower was very evident. The 325i is no hotrod at a rated 185 (?), but I think the A4 was only rated at 150, and we all know that BMW's horses tend to be larger than most. The handling on the Bimmer is definitely crisper, and brought an actual "Wow!" out of me the first time I took it through some real esses. I had never felt turn-in like that before, since I'd been driving FWD for many years, and Detroit RWD sleds before that.

Other than that, the ride and road manners are very comparable, and both are very quiet and comfortable out on the highways. But the A4 could definitely run out of steam in some passing situations on the two-laners. The interior of the A4 was very nice, and it definitely had better climate control logic, but now I'm so used to the 325's cockpit-style dash that I was disappointed in the interior styling of the E90.

As for styling, I really think that the A4 peaked out with the model that I owned and that the later revisions and new models have gotten steadily worse. That latest grille is scary and reminds me too much of an Edsel (if any of you out there remember those days). I also think that the 3-series styling peaked out with the facelifted E46 (just coincidentally the model that I happen to own), but styling is always a matter of opinion.

So I really don't think that drivers of either brand have cause to throw stones at the other, especially when there are so many other brands more worthy of being thrown at.

fedlawman · May 2006

"do you put the winters on just for actual snow events and then take them back off..."

Nah, I don't have snow tires.

My 17" wheels have high performance street tires and my 15" wheels have R-Comps for DE's.

kominsky · May 2006

That works... I thought you had taken driving enthusiasm to a whole new level.

billyperks1 · May 2006

Has anyone driven the Chrysler 300 C Hemi AWD?
I have been driving one for the past week because my TL was in a fender bender and I have to say that I am IMPRESSED.The car is a bullet and it is very spacious and not as cramped as the TL(2003).There are some negatives about the car but I just added it to my car shoppping short list.

Please tell me what you guys think about this car- my wife hates it, she said it looks like a chisled boat.

NO BIAS COMMENTS PLEASE- just honest and intelligent feedbacks.

Thx.

blueguydotcom · May 2006

Gas guzzler. Horrendous mileage.

kdshapiro · May 2006

I agree with your wife...ugly styling.

ivorypearlg · May 2006

The Chrysler 300C Hemi blah ... Looks like a ( Cheap ) knock off Bentley... Of course that is my personal opinion, but some advice would be to listen to your wife. When it comes to styling women know best.

I wasn't aware that the Chrysler 300C had AWD .. Does it ?
The car has horrible gas mileage ... Horrible might not be a strong enough word.

Some other options might be the Infiniti M35X AWD depending on your price range. Base price- $43,990. Engine 3.5 ltr V-6 280HP & 270LB-TQ. Long list of standard features. Journey Pkg- $2,750 really puts you in comfort.

Just stay away from the 300C ......

laurasdada · May 2006

I had a '99 300M, loved it. New 300? Well, the styling sent me away, but that's subjective. If the new 300 is as well rounded as my M (I know it's more powerful!) then it's certainly worth considering. But the styling? I'll leave that to Snoop...

ivorypearlg · May 2006

I've been in the 300M and 300C... Much different cars. The M I drove in was a wonderful luxury car, as the 300C is great at gas guzzling, but gives pretty good performance #'s....

shipo · May 2006

I don't know, maybe it's just me or maybe my Detroit roots showing through, however, even though I hated the looks of the 300 when I first saw it, it's kind of grown on me. I was out for a run a month or two back and went by a Chrysler dealership that had a new 300 SRT8 all done up in a black metallic sitting out front, and I have to admit, I was sorely tempted to at least ask for a test drive.

Regarding mileage, true the SRT8 mileage is something like 17 at best on the highway, however, the 300C (with its variable displacement engine) isn't half bad, more like mid twenties on the highway according to the folks that I work with that have one.

In the end, it really isn't my cup-o-tea, but if I needed a large fast sedan with lots of goodies, I'd certainly consider a virtually loaded 300C for under $42,000 (with every option except rear seat video and ash trays) as opposed to an M35, which when comparably equipped weighs in at nearly $55,000.

Best Regards,
Shipo

dhanley · May 2006

Actually, the m35x gets 17/24 mpg, same as the 300c, but the 300c has a much more potent v8. Aside from that, it's not clear that the m35 has much of an edge on the 300M. Infiniti's comparator doesn't make a very strong case to buy the m over the 300c awd, especially considering the $8K price difference.

ivorypearlg · May 2006

So sorry for the comparo... I should have did some research about the gas mileage. But in comparison the Chrysler does not have Vehicle Speed-Sensitive Power Steering, does not have luxury trim on the doors,does not have memory settings for the steering wheel or a power adjustable steering wheel, does not have front-seat active head restraints, and does not have a rear-center seat head restraint. All these are standard on the Infiniti, and none of those things are standard or optional on the Chrysler.

Options that you can get on the Infiniti you can't get on the Chrysler include, Heated Rear Seats, Reclining seats, Cruise Control Distance Sensors, a rear heater, rear seat controls for the audio system, Bose audio system which in my opinion is much better then a Boston Sound System, which are the speakers on my computer.

Things that are standard on the Infiniti that are optional on the Chrysler include an electronic sunroof,and side curtain airbags for front and rear passengers.

Infiniti M35X- 3.5 LTR V-6 280 HP / 270 LB-TQ
Chrysler 300C AWD- 5.7 LTR V-8 340 HP / 390 LB-TQ

Chrysler 300C AWD- 41,051.00 Includes CD Navigation System, Sirus Sat Radio, Power Sunroof, High-in Headlights,Protection Group 2,and Hands free communication,rear back-up sensors and a few other small options. to see: http://www-5.chrysler.com/vehsuite/dispatch.do

Infiniti M35X- 49,090.00 Includes DVD Navigation System, Sirus Sat Radio, climate controlled front seats, 8-SPKR Bose Audio System 6 disc auto changer, Rear View Monitor with camera, and pre-crash seat belts. See here -

http://www.config.infiniti.com/Dispatch.jsp?state_token=2%3A39%3Ainfiniti%7Cm45%- 7C2006%7C1%7C8zHw/A//7D%7CAAAAQAEJIA%7CAAAAQAEBIA%3A19020&lc=true&seq_id=39&.Cur- rentState=Config&.NewState=ConfigVehicleSummary

So there is a $8,039 price difference.

Also Infiniti offers a better warranty then Chrysler.

Personally I still stand with my advice about the Infiniti M35X. The looks of the M35X are also much more inviting and sexier. ( My opinion )... The interior of the M35X is also of a higher quality. ( My opinion ).... Well
dhanley if you can afford the 8,000 difference I would consider the Infiniti M35X.

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