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Comments
The 08' CTS is unveiled
The 08'-09' Grand Prix is unveiled
The 09' TL is unveiled
and
The final production version of the MKS is announced
:P ...
Honda will also be releasing its version of clean air diesel within the next 3 years along with vehicles equipped with fuel cells, flex fuel and will augment its venerable VTEC engine.
In terms of fuel efficiency my bias is towards Honda. Honda's first attempt with diesels in in the form of the Accord has received rave reviews in Europe and is compared to the much more expensive BMW 320d.
And dont forget this is Honda's first attempt. I am sure their second generation diesels will be substantially improved.
Also Honda is far ahead in terms of developing a mainstream fuel cell auto than any other manufacturer to date.
Rocky
A 335i sedan with leather is 40.8k including shipping.
Leather has zero, let me repeat, zero effect on 0-60, skidpad, slalom etc.
Everyone knows it's so they can suck in all of the suckers with the lowest possible base price. The Euro is strong, the German unions rock and BMW rules. Just ante up and shut up.
;-)
You are right, I should get me 2008' Caddy CTS. :P
Rocky
I see you like to post a lot. A whole lot. As in, your last 10 posts were at 2;38 p.m. through 3:14 p.m. TODAY. And I suspect your previous 10 were in the previous hour. Unfortunately, the majority of these posts seem to be cluttered with misinformation. Very cluttered.
My nephew is picking up a 335i coupe fully loaded with premium package (leather included), sport package, cold weather package and navigation at the factory (European Delievery Program) for $43,500 in December. For that price, they are throwing in a free session at BMW's performance driving school when he has time to go in the spring. By all measures of true quality and engineering, that is a very good deal.
But I guess if you are inclined to buy GM junk for $20,000 to $30,000 that depreciates to about half that value in the first 18 months, $43,500 might seem like a lot of money. Or if you are inclined to have a non-challenging day job that allows you to spend hours posting 20-30 times a day on Edmunds, $43,500 might seem unachievable. I suspect you would be right on that count.
The world is full of underachievers. BMW doesn't need to sell to them to be successful and personally, I hope they never lower themselves to doing that. Leather seating surfaces do not represent what makes BMW a superiorly engineered car, in case you've never driven one. You can put all the leather lipstick in the world on the GM pig and guess what you still have??? :confuse:
If, in fact, $43,500 (or less, without the extra options) is too much for you to stomach, then make your choices accordingly. But don't chastise those who can afford a 335i as buying a car that is overpriced. Or suggest that a G6 with Lay-Z-Boy leather and Lay-Z-Boy handling can even be compared to a Honda Accord in quality, let alone a 335i. Or as an alternative, you might consider posting less and working harder so that eventually that $43,500 isn't so far out of reach. My company attorney (that I pay), makes enough in 1 hour a day to buy a new Ferrari 430 every year. Think about that when you are on your 20th post tomorrow.
"..but if this ever changing world in which we live in makes you give in and cry... say live and let die... bah, bomp bah... bah, bomp bah..."
;-)
Why do I give a rat what your company attorney gets paid ???? Do you own the company and over pay him ???? Just because you are self employed that makes your opinion better than mine ?
I will easily pull in over $60,000 this yr. with zero Overtime. I'm in the top 20% in this country. I guess if that's being an under-achiever then label me as such. :surprise:
It's not a matter of "if" I can afford a $43,500 car, but is the car "worth" $43,500. Most BMW's owners paid for the badge, rather than the car IMHO.
I'm don't need to "attack you" the same like you did me to get my point across.
Rocky
Thanx designman, If you want a Bimmer, you have my blessings also.
Rocky
The soundtrack of the best James Bond film ever made. :shades:
Not like those crappy Bond films they make nowadays. :lemon:
It's not that you don't worship BMWs, the lord only knows you are entitled and everybody respects that. Your tagline seems to be wait until 2008 and BMW will be toast. 2008 is two years away, live in the now! By 2008 BMW will be superchargings its M5, the M3 will be putting out close to 900hp. The 335i will be sipping fuel at 40mpg, while averaging 4 secs to 60.
Yeah I know, you still won't fit in the backseat.
The CTS-V will beat it, but you'll need a trunk full of money for the gas.
Also, it was one of the two best songs by McCartney after the Beatles broke up. IMO the other one was Maybe I'm Amazed. I also like Nobody Does It Better by Carly Simon. But we digress, that's why I tried to get things going in the Luxury Lounge. But as we know, cars are the most important things in life and we absolutely MUST come to definitive conclusions in these car-specific threads. Accordingly the Luxury Lounge is floundering.
;-)
It's really quite tough to afford a car that costs more 30-50% of the buyer's annual income at the time of purchase, unless the buyer is still living off parents or something. A typical car cost 50% of its purchase-time price in the three years after acquisition, through depreciation, interest payment, taxes, insurance, etc.. That means roughly 16% of income each year for someone acquiring a car that is priced at 50% of his income . . . that means roughly 30% of after-tax income each year for the first three years, for someone who buys a $40k car on an $80k income. That's just not manageable for most households. Lease subsidies, and manufacturers' rebates that do not get reflected in the lease residual can change the numbers significantly . . . but neither is available for 335i at this time.
I'm glad you added IMHO. Because you don't speak for me, and I assume you know nothing about a BMW buyer, except for a small select few.
You are right, people do pay for the badge. But a potential buyer understands what is behind the badge. BMW has worked very hard to engineer their cars for people who want the ultimate driving experience. If you haven't driven a BMW borrow one from one of your friends overnight and have some fun with it.
Why is a Porsche 911 twice the price of a Corvette?
How is an $8,000 Rolex better than a $30 timex?
Why would anyone pay $30 for an 8 oz tenderloin when you can get a 1/4 pounder with cheese for $2?
Rocky, just because you can't tell the difference, doesn't mean it isn't there. It may not be worth it to you, but for many of us, it is.
I applaud Cadillac for having the guts to build and market a car like the CTS. It's not sublime like a BMW, but it is a competent and appealing sport sedan by all accounts. GM is doing good things right now (Solstice/Sky, Corvette, CTS) and I hope they continue moving forward down the path they started.
I've made over $56K ever since I was 24. Last year I made $58K. This yr. I should eclipse $60K. I'm not boasting about it because it's never enough unless you are rich like brightness, "and money ain't a thang" :P J/K Hows your kiddo brightness ?
Keep in mind however the average income earner do not buy the average-priced new car . . . the avearge income households buy used cars
I agree with ya pal. However it seems like they are able to afford more house than I'd be willing to pay for.
It's really quite tough to afford a car that costs more 30-50% of the buyer's annual income at the time of purchase, unless the buyer is still living off parents or something.
It can be done if the person is finacial savy and isn't in credit card debt, house broke, furniture broke, latest electronics broke. However I agree it's most wise not to throw money away on a expensive car that depreciates. However a car can be rewarding.
A typical car cost 50% of its purchase-time price in the three years after acquisition, through depreciation, interest payment, insurance, etc.. That means roughly 16% of income each year for someone acquires a car that costs 50% of his income . . . that means roughly 30% of after-tax income each year for the first three years, for someone who buys a $40k car on an $80k income.
If you've read the posts in this forum both you and I are dumb for looking at inferior cars from GM, because a BMW, holds its resale so well even though it costs a arm and a leg unless you want pleather and hardly no options. :surprise:
That's just not manageable for most households. Lease subsidies, and manufacturers' rebates that do not get reflected in the lease residual can change the numbers significantly . . . but neither is available for 335i at this time.
I agree with ya again brightness
Rocky
Rocky
Well it seems like I'm getting chastized for mot following in lock-step with most of the forum. I left the 335i forum to avoid this. :P If any of you know me I'm not sensitive and enjoy a good debate though.
Your tagline seems to be wait until 2008 and BMW will be toast.
I'm not saying BMW will be toast, but a good slice of the 2,000,000 unit pie should be taken by Cadillac finally. So yeah they will take some sales from potential Bimmer buyers. Well I should say they will win some back that BMW took over the last 3 years.
2008 is two years away, live in the now! By 2008 BMW will be superchargings its M5, the M3 will be putting out close to 900hp.
900 hp. that's funny. ROTF !!!!
The 335i will be sipping fuel at 40mpg, while averaging 4 secs to 60. -see above post-
Yeah I know, you still won't fit in the backseat.
Yeah the knee and ears sitting style won't work for my family. :surprise:
The CTS-V will beat it, but you'll need a trunk full of money for the gas.
Currently at 100 hp advantage it get's the same EPA numbers as a 335i + in 2008' I'll get 200-300 more horses good for 0-60 in about 4 flat. :P
Rocky
"this thread isn't just about "entry level luxury", its about "entry level PERFORMANCE luxury." The X-type has no business here when it can't even perform up to generic family hauler specs."
227 bhp in the x-type is still performance... does anyone remember the days of the 5.0l mustang with 200 hp - somewhat near the top of the heap for the times... now it seems like if you have less than 250 you're not worth looking at.
So are we looking at entry luxury performancy in terms of horsepower, or in terms of price?
If it's horsepower, I'll throw in my hand for the porsche boxster S. if it's price, I'll go with a Mercedes Benz c-class Kompressor
Rocky
I'm not going to give you a lesson on economics and try to convince you to buy a BMW. I'm not on BMW's marketing payroll and I don't care what you drive. Vice-versa I'm sure. But I will share my personal experience and why I don't ever see financially sophisticated buyers flocking from BMW (or Lexus, or Acura or..) to Cadillac.
From 1987 to 1995 I owned a Acura Integra. Initial cost $12,600. Retired to Salvation Army in 1995 w/ 127k miles.
From 1995 to present I own a Nissan Maxima. Initial cost $20,500. Retired from primary duty in 2004, but still alive and kicking at 155k miles.
Perhaps there is a GM/Cadillac model that you would find attractive to own for the next 10 years. I have a seriously dificult time renting a GM for 10 days on business. For me, the value of a 335i, or any number of other really well built and well engineered cars, is that they can last 10-15 years - and still be enjoyable to drive at the end of that time.
If you buy high quality that lasts, at a fair price, you will almost always be ahead of buying low quality at a cheaper price. GM has a long history of producing vehicles that, after 5 years, hardly anyone WANTS to own. They might have the ability to last 150k miles, but if they weren't already killing you with squeeks and rattles when they were new, they certainly will by the 5 year mark. I seriously doubt even you would find a 5+ year ownership experience desireable. I'm sure GM would have something with another 100 lbs of torque to get your blood going. And you'd be stuck trying to find someone who finds a 4-5 year old Caddy an attractive car. They may be out there where you live, but they sure aren't in my neighborhood.
So in summary, I don't fault you for liking GM. That's your perogative. And, I certainly don't fault you for thinking $40k is expensive. I made the same as you when I bought that Integra and thought, at the time, that a $20k Legend was too much. But I would respectfully suggest that true build quality and long term value are not things that should be dismissed in favor of leather and torque. And that's where IMO, BMW will continue to shine over GM.
P.S. In 1988 I bought a fixer upper house in a good neighborhood that I stretched for. This month, I'll send in the final mortgage payment. It's current market value is about as much as our 911S ... plus a 911 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo, and Carerra GT combined. So don't feel too bad for those of us that put money into a house instead of a Caddy... or a BMW... or even an Acura Legend.
I'm not going to give you a lesson on economics and try to convince you to buy a BMW.
Thank-you. I guess habitat, I'm partial pal with GM, because most of my family has worked for them and Delphi.
Dad, and a few remaining relatives took the early buy-out at the end of July after 27 yrs. I still have a few family members left on the GM and Delphi payroll.
I'm not on BMW's marketing payroll and I don't care what you drive. Vice-versa I'm sure.
That is correct again. I'm just glad you aren't interested in cars made with cheap labor by child slaves. At least BMW's for the most part are made by people that are paid a livable wage and most are union-made and I can respect that pal.
But I will share my personal experience and why I don't ever see financially sophisticated buyers flocking from BMW (or Lexus, or Acura or..) to Cadillac.
For the most part you are correct. Cadillac has rebounded itself. I agree they need get that interior down to European levels to have a chance at regaining market-share.
From 1987 to 1995 I owned a Acura Integra. Initial cost $12,600. Retired to Salvation Army in 1995 w/ 127k miles.
Those were fun to drive cars. Like a Go-Kart, my buddy had a GS-R coupe a mid 90's model
From 1995 to present I own a Nissan Maxima. Initial cost $20,500. Retired from primary duty in 2004, but still alive and kicking at 155k miles.
Maxima's are nice. They were a big player in the mid-90's. They have redone the interior very nicely, what last year ?
Perhaps there is a GM/Cadillac model that you would find attractive to own for the next 10 years.
I used to swap cars often, but now I like to hold on to them for at least 3 years. I'm going to buy at least my wifes grandma's 2000 Buick Century for $4K. She passed away a couple of months ago. It has like 70K on it. It will be my future work car. My grandmother has a 2002 Oldsmobile Aurora, with 43K and she is willing to sell it to me for $10K. I think I'm going to buy it also for the wife and kids. That's below trade in value. I'm going to pay cash for both.
I have a seriously difficult time renting a GM for 10 days on business.
Getting the low-end models must stink.
For me, the value of a 335i, or any number of other really well built and well engineered cars, is that they can last 10-15 years - and still be enjoyable to drive at the end of that time.
I completely understand. GM, in the past they built some very horrible cars. I know why you are so skeptical about the future. In my eyes I'm finally seeing action, instead of just promises from GM. I as you know post alot. I spend alot of time gathering the newest inside secrets I can, and like posting links on Edmunds. Especially when it has something to do with GM.
If you buy high quality that lasts, at a fair price, you will almost always be ahead of buying low quality at a cheaper price.
Agree
GM has a long history of producing vehicles that, after 5 years, hardly anyone WANTS to own. They might have the ability to last 150k miles, but if they weren't already killing you with squeaks and rattles when they were new, they certainly will by the 5 year mark.
Agree. However I'm beginning to see changes. The 2004' GTO was the beginning of change and signs of quality. It didn't sell well because of style. The Lucerne is another nice piece of quality. Now we have the new SUV's CUV's Trucks, and you gotta agree that was a huge quality jump from the previous generation. habitat, take a Saturn Aura sometime when you get a chance for a test drive. It's not like you are obligated to buy it. How bout those Kappa Twins ?
I seriously doubt even you would find a 5+ year ownership experience desirable.
Off the top of my head the Aurora's, 95-99 Riviera were both Rock Solid. My former 02' Cadillac Seville STS was rock solid also. But yeah, for the most part you are correct unfortunately.
I'm sure GM would have something with another 100 lbs of torque to get your blood going. And you'd be stuck trying to find someone who finds a 4-5 year old Caddy an attractive car. They may be out there where you live, but they sure aren't in my neighborhood.
Yes Cadillacs, are very popular around here. Lots of conservative people around here. They like domestics especially the Trucks and SUV's (Mainly GM)
Michigan, OTOH the conservatives like Japananese, and domestics, kinda weird to me. :surprise:
So in summary, I don't fault you for liking GM. That's your prerogative. And, I certainly don't fault you for thinking $40k is expensive. I made the same as you when I bought that Integra and thought, at the time, that a $20k Legend was too much.
$40K I think is alot of money, no matter how much you make. If I was a millionaire it would still be a good chunk of change. I hope GM, can make a car that even somebody like you would like to own someday.
But I would respectfully suggest that true build quality and long term value are not things that should be dismissed in favor of leather and torque. And that's where IMO, BMW will continue to shine over GM.
They do shine, and have a huge fan base. People who can and can't afford but both desire them the same. I've always respected BMW's cars. It's not like they are POS's. They are true-blue German Engineered. Even I was close to pulling the trigger on a very low mileage 97' Black M3 sedan last year.
P.S. In 1988 I bought a fixer upper house in a good neighborhood that I stretched for. This month, I'll send in the final mortgage payment. It's current market value is about as much as our 911S ... plus a 911 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo, and Carrera GT combined.
Hey rich guy, if you ever come to Texas, you need to look me up and give me a ride in your 911S :P
Ne ways congrats on paying your home off. I bet that felt good.
So don't feel too bad for your friends that put money into a house instead of a Caddy... or a BMW... or even an Acura Legend.
That is true, but some of them are buying the Cadillac of houses.... one's they really can't afford. I think if you looked around you'd agree. House + Car doesn't=Job :confuse:
Rocky
Rocky
Got it. So what car in here appeals to you and why? You can have the Detroit torque, I'm way past that. I want a quality drive with the Detroit torque, unfortunately I can't afford a Bugatti.
You're living in the future. That's okay. You believe Caddy is going to do great things in two years.
Do you think people shopping a 335 are going to buy a CTS-V? I don't. People shopping an M3 or M5 aren't going there either. A person who can afford an M5 is not buying a CTS-V. People buy those cars for specific reasons, none of which Cadillac can offer.
The CTS-V will be going after the 550 and M45 crowd. A rather narrow slice. Again, someone who wants a 550, I cannot see getting a CTS-V, but an M45 buyer might be a candidate. I think Cadillac is too little to late.
For 2007' I'd say the most appealing entry lux cars on the market are the G35, BMW 335i, Lexus IS 350, Acura TL Type-S, and yes a CTS, and thats about covers it, right ? Why do I like these cars ? Well they all have above average performance. Some offer a bit more "gadgets" while the others offer a bit more performance. If money was no option it would be a 335i since it's the newest player and has the best performance, while still offering enough gadgets. The TL Type-S, probably would be the most practical since it's a FWDer and can be driven year-around. The G35, is pretty darn nice also. The Lexus IS, has the most gadgets, but it's back seat is very tight. It's probably the best looking though. The Lexus IS, without the sport suspension package is roughly $44-45K Add the sport suspension it's about $47K, and finally it might be worth getting since VDIM is defeatable for 07'. I hope to see a head to head test of a 335i vs. 07 IS 350. Now that would be a great test.
Rocky
P.S. "You can afford a Buggati if you can get em' to do Generation Loans" Your Great, Great, Great, Great, Grand children would be happy their pappy signed them up. :P
Nah, I made only $30k or so back when I was 24; that was probably below average income nation-wide, and certainly below average where I lived . . . thank goodness I made a little more earlier, so had a car fully paid for already so I had a car to drive around that year. It was tough to make a living on $30k in Boston, even without a car payment.
Cars are about the worst place to park money, IMHO. It hardly matters which brand you buy, most of them cost about 50% purchase price in three years after factoring depreciation, interest payment, taxes and insurance. That's purchase price, not MSRP. Relatively high line cars may have higher residual as per centage of MSRP, they have higher base to begin with and have higher cost of money (ie. either the interest cost or the cost of your own money not earning interest). Take for example, even the 335i, three year residual is about 61%-65% (assuming real life resale is as high as ALG number, which is highly doubtful), cost of money at 5% works out to be 15% over three years. The 50% mark is reached even before typical 3-8% sales tax, 2-3% annual excise tax, $700-$2000 (2-5%) annual insurance etc . . . The only way to keep the per centage somewhat lower is waiting for the initial craze to pass, and shop for deep discounts and interest subsidies. That used to be GM's specialty, but nowadays BMW seems to have joined the club too.
Yep.
Do you think people shopping a 335 are going to buy a CTS-V? I don't.
Within 2 years they will cross-shop em'. Then their will be a gut check of do I want the badge or the new champ ? :P
People shopping an M3 or M5 aren't going there either. A person who can afford an M5 is not buying a CTS-V. People buy those cars for specific reasons, none of which Cadillac can offer.
We will see within 2 years.
The CTS-V will be going after the 550 and M45 crowd. A rather narrow slice. Again, someone who wants a 550, I cannot see getting a CTS-V, but an M45 buyer might be a candidate. I think Cadillac is too little to late.
People will have to choose between "Life. Liberty. and the Pursuit". or Ultimate Driving Machine
The difference is big. The BMW, does have benchmark handling characteristics. The new CTS-V, will flat out blow the doors off of any BMW ever made in a straight-line.
I think BMW, will keep its hardcore handling obsessed audience, but will still have slices of the pie taken away by Cadillac, and Acura's 09' TL. They will be new customers, and I think both car company's could hamper BMW, from new generations. Cadillac, and we know Acura will deliver the goods in Gadgetology, and both will be cheaper to own because of price, and reliability.
In 2007' the decision won't be as hard as the future. I guarantee you that.
Rocky
Whoa !!!! :surprise: "Open worm can alert"
ROTFLMAO
Warning: You are about to be attacked, for saying those words. BMW, and deep discounts don't go hand and hand, do they ? :surprise:
Rocky
Nah, in a normal interest environment, stretching loans beyond a decade or two makes very little difference for the size of each monthly payment. At the current 5-6%, the intereste payment on the $1.1 million Veyron is $60-70k a year (APY vs. "rate"), with no capital amortization at all. Generational loans showed up for real estates once upon a time in some parts of the world only because interest rate was extraordinarily low.
Rocky
Rocky, I don't know how you get these ridiculous figures like 51K+ for 335i and 47K for IS350 Sports. The most loaded IS350 that I was able to come up is 45K and that's with the Luxury package and every gadgets available out there. As matter of fact, the sports package actually costs less than the luxury package so 45K should be the top end of IS350's price range.
finally it might be worth getting since VDIM is defeatable for 07'
The VDIM is defeatable for the 06', it's just without the switch. But my point is that it is defeatable but just takes longer so bite me :P .
In 2008' we will be able to throw Cadillac, into the mix without any regrets.
For the last dang time...the 08' is NOT going to be the Messiah of Caddy!!
What is your generation? I'm 32 and I don't think home prices are that out of line, even in San Diego. Heck, outside of CA, especially in places like the south, homes are scary cheap, imho.
BMW, and deep discounts don't go hand and hand, do they ?
Yes, they do. I've been trying to tell you that for some time. My first bimmer in 03 was sold to me for $400 over invoice. My last one - an 06 330i - was sold to me for a couple thousand under invoice. Seems to me that they'll deal.
No (driving) travel plans to Texas, but if you make it to DC I can run you by the monuments with the top down.
And, correction, I'm certainly not "rich" by my peer standards. One of my B-school classmates has made his way up to around #250 on the most recent Forbes 400 list. Several others are in solid 8 and 9 figure territory. By those standards, I'm damn near penniless. But it's all relative and I'm still not too proud to admit that I changed my own oil on that Nissan Maxima at least 40 times.
Not to turn Edmunds into CNBC, but on the house front, I agree that your generation has it a little tougher than mine. But don't get discouraged. When I bought in 1988, fixed mortgage rates were 14%. :surprise: I went with an adjustable that worked it's way up to 12.75% before interest rates started heading down and I was able to refinance. All the pain you can bear now on the house front will likely pay dividends in the long run if you go for a quality location.
Lastly, I respect the hard working folks that put their time in working for GM and I hope I never say anything that is contadictory to that. I put the blame for the decline of the company mostly on management and some on the union heads and structure, but not the union rank and file.
Back to the main topic at hand, wow, you did a great deal on the 330i . . . it's the first model year of the E90, no less! With the discounting, lease subsidies, and all-inclusive service and wear-items, BMW's are starting to be price-competitive again, especially in this segment . . . the $1k brake job is practically mandatory at two-year mark, with those soft brakes nowadays used across this market segment.
Rocky, you are either crazy or have gone mad. That sentence is probably true with all the non-M BMWs but I honestly don't think the CTS-V (new or old) can "flat out blow the doors off" the M3 and M5.
I think both car company's could hamper BMW, from new generations
Acura maybe but I don't like Caddy's chance to attract the below-30 crowd. BMW has the ability to attract younger buyers with their entry level product (3er) and keep them as loyal customers while they move up the ladder to the 5, 6 and 7 series. So far I haven't seen the CTS to have the ability of doing the same for Caddy yet. Also, another problem for Caddy is that there is not a strong upper lineup. The STS is respectable but after compare it to 5er, E, M and GS then it becomes laughable. I am not even going to go to DTS since its definitely not up to par to compete with the other flagships. Based on the assessment I'll say that Caddy is having trouble to attract younger buyers and at the same time also having trouble to turn them into loyal customers. So even though you, Rocky, are very optimistic about Caddy's future; Me, however, is not so much.
Infiniti is doing the same thing and doing it well with the G and the M seems to be a good candidate of a potential upgrade. The missing piece right now for Infiniti is that it doesn't have a respectable flagship yet (I am pretty sure they are working very hard to come up with the next Q). Once that piece is in place, Infiniti could become a potential force to be reckon with. If I am BMW, I'll be watching them very closely more than any other manufactures.
Acura has a winner in TL but failed to provide a next one up in their lineup (I really don't see the RL as a serious competitor among the 5er, E, GS and M group with a V6). They also don't have a large luxury sedan to go head to head with other flagships.
Last but not least Lexus was in the similar situation as Caddy with an older-age customer base. However, Lexus has a very strong upper lineup (way stronger than Caddy) with their GS and LS so all they have to do is to create a winner in the bottom then they should be fine. Seems to me that the new IS is doing its part to help out the age group imbalance situation and hopefully Lexus can learn from a few mistakes in the current IS (no stick, soft) and implementing into the next generation.
Give me that 14% now, and a corresponding 70% price reduction, I'd actually increase my housing exposures :-) Interest rate can be refinanced later at lower rate . . . refinancing principle on the other hand is called bankruptcy.
I'd never consider a 325, to be perfectly honest.
although, in terms of this thread, some could argue the 325 can at least outperform family haulers in many areas other than acceleration.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Performance is absolutely relative. A Hummer can outperform a Model T, so, by your reasoning, that makes it a performance vehicle. ummmm... no.
Let's stick in the here and now.
The equation is performance for a price. So both are relevant and not independent.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
What !!!!! The sport suspension package is $47K with pre-collision. The sport-suspension is more than the Luxury-package. You need to go do some research before criticizing me.
The VDIM is defeatable for the 06', it's just without the switch. But my point is that it is defeatable but just takes longer so bite me
What ? I know all about the secret code :confuse: What does biting you have to do with anything. Is that how you get your VDIM to defeat ? :surprise:
For the last dang time...the 08' is NOT going to be the Messiah of Caddy!!
We are already beginning to bow and ask if we are "worthy" enough to drive such a benchmark. :P J/K
Rocky
I'm 32 and I don't think home prices are that out of line, even in San Diego. Heck, outside of CA, especially in places like the south, homes are scary cheap, imho.
You said it with a straight face. Amazing :surprise:
Yes, they do. I've been trying to tell you that for some time. My first bimmer in 03 was sold to me for $400 over invoice. My last one - an 06 330i - was sold to me for a couple thousand under invoice. Seems to me that they'll deal.
WOW, then maybe a 335i isn't out all that unpractical. I'm gonna have to go shopping with you if I like a 335i or M3
Rocky