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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

1198199201203204590

Comments

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    No (driving) travel plans to Texas, but if you make it to DC I can run you by the monuments with the top down.

    Now that would be cool.

    And, correction, I'm certainly not "rich" by my peer standards. One of my B-school classmates has made his way up to around #250 on the most recent Forbes 400 list. Several others are in solid 8 and 9 figure territory. By those standards, I'm damn near penniless. But it's all relative and I'm still not too proud to admit that I changed my own oil on that Nissan Maxima at least 40 times.

    Well you definetly aren't a typical "suit" then. ;)

    Not to turn Edmunds into CNBC, but on the house front, I agree that your generation has it a little tougher than mine. But don't get discouraged. When I bought in 1988, fixed mortgage rates were 14%. I went with an adjustable that worked it's way up to 12.75% before interest rates started heading down and I was able to refinance. All the pain you can bear now on the house front will likely pay dividends in the long run if you go for a quality location.

    Lastly, I respect the hard working folks that put their time in working for GM and I hope I never say anything that is contadictory to that. I put the blame for the decline of the company mostly on management and some on the union heads and structure, but not the union rank and file.

    Wow, that was a nice compliment. I deep down do blame the UAW suits, for some of the work-rules they had in place for all those years. Think-God, they are finally loosening them. I guess they are making up to GM, and Ford, by allowing them to hire temps really cheap. What's weird is they didn't extend the offer to DCX. Tension between the Mustache guy and Getterfinger ??? Who knows. :surprise:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    brightness, so are you saying the expensive maintainence is keeping prices down ?

    Rocky
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    What !!!!! The sport suspension package is $47K with pre-collision. The sport-suspension is more than the Luxury-package. You need to go do some research before criticizing me.

    I did.

    Sports Package w/ Additional options ($43,462.00):

    Sport Package includes:
    - Perforated leather-trimmed interior
    - Power tilt-and-telescopic steering column
    - Lexus Memory System for power driver's seat (except lumbar) outside mirrors and steering wheel
    - Heated and ventilated front seats
    - Aluminum sport pedals
    - Aluminum doorsill scuff plates
    - Rain-sensing intermittent windshield wipers with mist cycle
    - Electrochromic (auto-dimming) outside mirrors with auto tilt-down in reverse
    - Bi-xenon High-Intensity Discharge (HID) headlamps
    - Adaptive Front Lighting System (AFS)
    - Sport-tuned suspension
    - 18-inch alloy wheels

    Additional Options:
    - Lexus voice-activated DVD Navigation System
    - Intuitive Parking Assist
    - Headlamp washers
    - Preferred Accessory Package (includes Cargo net, Trunk mat and Wheel locks)

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Luxury Package w/ Additional options ($44,436.00):

    Luxury Package with 18-in wheels includes:
    - Auburn bird's-eye maple interior trim
    - Perforated leather-trimmed interior
    - Power tilt-and-telescopic steering column
    - Lexus Memory System for power driver's seat (except lumbar) outside mirrors and steering wheel
    - Heated and ventilated front seats
    - Illuminated doorsill scuff plates
    - Power rear-window sunshade
    - Rain-sensing intermittent windshield wipers with mist cycle
    - Electrochromic (auto-dimming) outside mirrors with auto tilt-down in reverse
    - Bi-xenon High Intensity Discharge (HID) headlamps
    - Adaptive Front Lighting System (AFS)
    - 18-in alloy wheels

    Additional Options:
    - Lexus voice-activated DVD Navigation System
    - Intuitive Parking Assist
    - Headlamp washers
    - Preferred Accessory Package (includes Cargo net, Trunk mat and Wheel locks)
    - Rear spoiler
    - Floor mats, all-weather

    Like I said, Luxury package is more expensive than the Sports package. Looks like I am NOT the one that needs to do some more research.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Cars in this segment practically all require a $1000 brake job at 2-yr, 25-30k mark nowadays due to the pads they are using now in order to get great 70-0 numbers, well within the time span of even a 36-mo lease, so the buyer/leaser would have to pay for it if wear items not covered. BMW has all service and wear items included in purchase price, whereas the other mfrs do not . . . so I would take that into account when cross-shopping. The free oil changes are cheap and nearly irrelevent, but the brake job (and clutch replacement if your driving condition involves heavy clutch wear) is not cheap if you have to pay for it.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Rocky, you are either crazy or have gone mad. That sentence is probably true with all the non-M BMWs but I honestly don't think the CTS-V (new or old) can "flat out blow the doors off" the M3 and M5

    The current CTS, is faster in a straight-line than the M3 and yes the M5 will out-run it. I was referring to the 08-09' CTS-V which will have no less than 500 hp. rurmor also says it could have 600 Super-V power from blue-devil engine. ;)

    Acura maybe but I don't like Caddy's chance to attract the below-30 crowd. BMW has the ability to attract younger buyers with their entry level product (3er) and keep them as loyal customers while they move up the ladder to the 5, 6 and 7 series. So far I haven't seen the CTS to have the ability of doing the same for Caddy yet. Also, another problem for Caddy is that there is not a strong upper lineup. The STS is respectable but after compare it to 5er, E, M and GS then it becomes laughable. I am not even going to go to DTS since its definitely not up to par to compete with the other flagships. Based on the assessment I'll say that Caddy is having trouble to attract younger buyers and at the same time also having trouble to turn them into loyal customers. So even though you, Rocky, are very optimistic about Caddy's future; Me, however, is not so much.

    Okay, fair enough. I agree the upper class' need more to be competitive with their German and Japanse rivals.

    Infiniti is doing the same thing and doing it well with the G and the M seems to be a good candidate of a potential upgrade. The missing piece right now for Infiniti is that it doesn't have a respectable flagship yet (I am pretty sure they are working very hard to come up with the next Q). Once that piece is in place, Infiniti could become a potential force to be reckon with. If I am BMW, I'll be watching them very closely more than any other manufactures.

    Agree....But what about Lexus ? ;)

    Acura has a winner in TL but failed to provide a next one up in their lineup (I really don't see the RL as a serious competitor among the 5er, E, GS and M group with a V6). They also don't have a large luxury sedan to go head to head with other flagships.

    Yeah it's going to take that V-10 RL to bring back some credibility to the upper markets

    Last but not least Lexus was in the similar situation as Caddy with an older-age customer base. However, Lexus has a very strong upper lineup (way stronger than Caddy) with their GS and LS so all they have to do is to create a winner in the bottom then they should be fine. Seems to me that the new IS is doing its part to help out the age group imbalance situation and hopefully Lexus can learn from a few mistakes in the current IS (no stick, soft) and implementing into the next generation.

    Agree Lexus, has a good playbook and have been running it to perfection, quite a few years now.

    Rocky
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    The current CTS, is faster in a straight-line than the M3

    You are kidding me right? I hope you meant the current "CTS-V" instead of "CTS".
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    "Back to the main topic at hand, wow, you did a great deal on the 330i . . . it's the first model year of the E90, no less!"

    I believe BG got his e90 through ED allowing him to save more $$. ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Okay, thanx

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    That's what I meant, sorry for the error.

    Rocky
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I'm not what source you are using

    The source I used is call www.Lexus.com

    Now I rest my case...
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Righto! In configuring a BMW I used a little known website called: bmwusa.com
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Now I seriously think that for the last couple days Rocky is just having some fun with us and we are just all dumb enough to play along...

    It's either that or...I am not even going to go there.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Rocky lives in the future. Caddy for all. I for one don't share his optimism. HP will never be, the be all and end all. The CTS-V will surely attract buyers, but I predict far fewer than he believes.

    Rocky do you have GM stock?
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Caddy can't count on their V-series cars to survive just like BMW doesn't rely heavily on the M-series. Those are the halo cars which function is to attract customers into the show room. Of course there are also many rich people out there are willing to spend big bucks on the halo cars but they are after all the minority. The success of BMW is built on their bread and butter - the 3-series. Without having a winner in the entry level market, BMW could be well in trouble regardless if they have a 1000 HP, 100 MPG M3 or M5. With that in mind, if Caddy cannot produce a winner in the mainstream market (entry-level) I seriously doubt that it'll be successful down the road.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Rocky do you have GM stock?

    If I do it's in my 401K plan. I don't own any stock outside of that.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Well, the one I priced up using a lexus salesmen was $47,295 matched the same MSRP I gave the link to. The dealership was Park Place in Big D. I'm :confuse: why you guys are getting different MSRP's than me ????

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    I've used them to and get a 335i like I want for $53K with a few accessories ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Now I seriously think that for the last couple days Rocky is just having some fun with us and we are just all dumb enough to play along...

    It's either that or...I am not even going to go there.


    I've been wondering the same thing about you guys. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Rocky lives in the future. Caddy for all. I for one don't share his optimism. HP will never be, the be all and end all. The CTS-V will surely attract buyers, but I predict far fewer than he believes.

    Hp. and Tq certainly help along with a real world interior where I can stuff a 800lb Gorilla in the back seat. :P

    Rocky
  • dandrews1dandrews1 Posts: 184
    Got it. So what car in here appeals to you and why? You can have the Detroit torque, I'm way past that. I want a quality drive with the Detroit torque, unfortunately I can't afford a Bugatti.

    Detroit came up with something in production with 1000 bhp?? Since when?

    /DA
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Why bother spending that kinda of money when you can get a 1000+ hp Caddy V-16 for alot less. :P

    Rocky
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Well I configured my car and got $45K. This was $4K more than my E46. Seems reasonable for more horsepower and more options.

    edit - it is true if you configure Mercedes, Porsche and BMW, with every available option under the sun you will get very high MSRP numbers. Nobody I know does this sort of thing, except for rockylee, at this price point.

    So Rocky what is the MSRP of a 2008 CTS-V with every available option? You can't bash the $53K 335 until you tell us this one little thing.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Because you get a Caddy, which for a lot of people is not a postive thing.
  • Why is Rocky stuck in the near term future talking about the hypothetical 2008 CTS-V? Get with it, the 2020 G75 will LITERALLY fly/hover and get 100 mpg....running on water. :P
  • dandrews1dandrews1 Posts: 184
    "Why bother spending that kinda of money when you can get a 1000+ hp Caddy V-16 for alot less."


    Did I not say "Production"? That Caddy is not production - it's a concept car that likely will never see the light of day .

    If we want to start playing the game of 'what-if' then we could go for the 1.9l honda engines out of their F1 cars that put out over 1200 bhp - but with an expected engine life of approx. 6-8 hours.

    Please stick to things that exist.

    We can all out-trump each other with what-if games and conjecture. We can do that until all conversations turn into gibberish of "my favourite brand is better than your favourite brand".

    For example:
    An article recently came out about the new Land Rover LR2 with a hybrid gas-electric system that generates 160 bhp at each wheel (meaning 640 bhp total).

    If I were to take your approach, I might read this article, and come up with the following diatribe:

    That would make it the most powerful SUV ever, in a mini-SUV format and it will rule all SUV sales and nobody can come up with anything to touch it, and Land Rover will come out of the shadows it has been living in, and everyone else will go out of business because nobody else can touch that.


    Doesn't make much sense or lend me much credibility if I start making impossible connections does it?

    /DA
  • Agreed... We haven't even seen the pre-production version of the 2008 CTS set to debut at the Detroit Auto Show next year. The above statements read as if someone believed Lutz, Wagoner and co. hook, line, and sinker when they said that the new CTS will turn GM around. An inline V6 with turbo and all the fancy gadgets and gizmos would only serve to make the CTS competitive not ahead of the class. If the CTS has the driving dynamics of the BMW 3 series with the interior of Audi and the electronics of Acura and Lexus along with the comfort of the TL and the pricing of Infiniti then it will truly be at the top of its class.

    Like it or not, we can only compare the 2007 CTS.

    Host, why is the Cadillac STS part of the entry level luxury performance sedan list up above? Did the database burp, or did my eyes deceive me? :surprise:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Host, why is the Cadillac STS part of the entry level luxury performance sedan list up above? Did the database burp, or did my eyes deceive me? :surprise:"

    As rocklee pointed out $53K for a loaded 335i puts it in STS territory. So I guess it's not really a far reach for the entry level luxury performance sedans category. :blush
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    So Rocky what is the MSRP of a 2008 CTS-V with every available option? You can't bash the $53K 335 until you tell us this one little thing.

    Taking an educated guess it will be under $55,000. You get M5 power (min.) M5 size, and options ? There are no options except a dealer installed shock system. That likely won't be available anymore since the rumor mill says adjustable Magnaride will be standard, but we will see. The Super-V test car had 600 hp. which would mean it would blow the doors off of anything BMW makes including the beloved over-priced yuppie M5. :P

    I love picking on you guys. :D A $50K Cadillac smoking a $100K M5, is priceless..... :blush:

    Rocky

    Bottomline the 2008-2009 CTS-V with
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    edit - it is true if you configure Mercedes, Porsche and BMW, with every available option under the sun you will get very high MSRP numbers. Nobody I know does this sort of thing, except for rockylee, at this price point.

    My god you'd think they would be standards when you are spending that kind of dough. You can have your pleather 335i and I'll be riding in extreme comfort sipping on a starbucks laping not only you in your pleather, stripped, over-priced 335i, I, will be laping both of your buddy's in there 08' M3's and M5's :P

    -Life. Liberty. and the Pursuit. of blowing the doors off BMW's not only in straight-line performance, but also around the curves :P

    "Ain't I a stinka" ;)

    Rocky
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