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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Because you get a Caddy, which for a lot of people is not a postive thing.

    Well BMW drivers can't handle the Detroit Muscle of Cadillacs, so that is understandable. They are better off sticking with their kia sourced I-6. :P

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    ROTFLMAO, Nahhh.... that will be a Honda Jet car. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Land Rover, is on the up and up I see ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Agreed... We haven't even seen the pre-production version of the 2008 CTS set to debut at the Detroit Auto Show next year. The above statements read as if someone believed Lutz, Wagoner and co. hook, line, and sinker when they said that the new CTS will turn GM around. An inline V6 with turbo and all the fancy gadgets and gizmos would only serve to make the CTS competitive not ahead of the class.

    BMW, would only make Motor Cycles if GM, did such a thing. ;)

    If the CTS has the driving dynamics of the BMW 3 series with the interior of Audi and the electronics of Acura and Lexus along with the comfort of the TL and the pricing of Infiniti then it will truly be at the top of its class.

    Yuk, a Audi interior. I hate the current CTS, interior but it looks better than that dog. :surprise: The 07' Volvo S80 interior would of been a better reference than Audi. ;)

    Like it or not, we can only compare the 2007 CTS.

    There are spy photo's on the internet including this site with pics of exterior and interior. But agree we can't compare performance quite yet.

    Host, why is the Cadillac STS part of the entry level luxury performance sedan list up above? Did the database burp, or did my eyes deceive me?

    The V-6 STS, really isn't a entry level performance car. It's more of a boulevard cruiser.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    As rocklee pointed out $53K for a loaded 335i puts it in STS territory. So I guess it's not really a far reach for the entry level luxury performance sedans category.

    It should be under performance Luxury Sedans forum. The V-6 STS, you could argue is in this segment. But it really isn't a performance car is it with-out the V-8. Even I can admit that. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Whispers: Holden Commodore Coming to U.S. as Pontiac in 2007

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=117004

    Rocky :D
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    In the real world most people do not fully option out most cars. But you are still living in the future: "I can't wait for 2008". Come back to 2006.

    As you might know HP isn't everything. It will be fun to see a 500hp M5 leave the 2008 CTS-V in it's rear view mirror.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    If you really believe the CTS-V will be as nimble as the 3 series. Have at it. I don't need 600hp to fill the tank every other mile. I hope you can afford the gas. I'll take the 335i and really enjoy my ride.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    In the real world most people do not fully option out most cars. But you are still living in the future: "I can't wait for 2008". Come back to 2006.

    Well alot of company's have trim packages bundled togeather. I see at least where I live with more vehicles in top trim vs base. ;) The 2006' or 2007' CTS-V, still blows the doors off of the current 335 & M3, and will run with the V-10 M5.

    As you might know HP isn't everything. It will be fun to see a 500hp M5 leave the 2008 CTS-V in it's rear view mirror.

    We both know that won't happen. The 2008 CTS-V, will embarrass the M5, especially if it gets 600 hp. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    If you really believe the CTS-V will be as nimble as the 3 series. Have at it.

    I never said it would be as nimble, those are your words.

    I don't need 600hp to fill the tank every other mile.

    I won't have to either do to GM engineering. With 600 hp. and a 6-speed stick, I would get approx. 18-City 28-Hwy
    EPA.

    I hope you can afford the gas.

    I'd drive it normal most of the time. If you "get-on" a 335i, they will suck the gas like a CTS-V. My point is I'd have 100-200 more hp. and get only a mile or 2 less mpg than you.

    I rest my case !!!

    I'll take the 335i and really enjoy my ride.

    If you like a 335i, then fine. You have my blessings. they are nice cars. Enjoy, however that doesn't mean they will work for everyone, and I want more car for my dollar than what the 335i would personally offer me.

    Rocky
  • My god you'd think they would be standards when you are spending that kind of dough. You can have your pleather 335i and I'll be riding in extreme comfort sipping on a starbucks...

    You go ahead and consume beverages in your car. The only open liquid containers allowed in my car have water in them. Even my girlfriend realizes she cannot have her IV of coffee in my car...EVER.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    You go ahead and consume beverages in your car. The only open liquid containers allowed in my car have water in them.

    Why ?

    Even my girlfriend realizes she cannot have her IV of coffee in my car...EVER.

    Is your name Rich ? I only know one guy like that and he is a co-worker. My wife would slap me silly if I told her she wasn't allowed to have a drink other than water in my vehicle. ;)

    Now if it were the kids, I cold see your point.

    Rocky
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Can't take it anymore, hitting the Change Tracking link next and saying, "So long folks."

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Shipo,

    It was nice having an "adult" debate with ya pal on this forum. You know your cars. ;)

    Have a good one pal. :)

    Rocky
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Actually my position is the reverse of yours. No matter how much horsepower GM will put in a car, it will not embarrass the M5. The new M3 coming out shortly was suggested it will get to 60 at 4 seconds. A CTS-V will embarrass the M3?. The new 335i has been clocked to 60 at 4.7 seconds and has a top speed of 150mpg. The CTS-V is faster than that? Even if it did have the horsepower you stated, trying to use that on the road, will cause the vehicle to wind up smashed in a concrete abutment.

    Come on, you need to get to the here and now. GM is making very bad decisions. Instead of producing cars that last, are attractive and people want to buy, they focus on the niche market place.

    I suggest you create a thread in the future vehicles section titled: "CTS-V: Watch the other auto manufacturers declare bankruptcy".

    The rhetoric for a vehicle that hasn't even been seen, from a company that lately has a miserable track record is way to much.

    Sorry rocky, you might was well claim that GM is going after Bugatti.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Good job Rocky, you have just single handily killed the forum...
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    It wasn't him, it was us.

    Hitting the ignore button when not discussing 2006.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Whatever, we can't have a disagreement ? That's kinda childish, don't ya guys think.

    The 2006 CTS-V was clocked from 0-60 in 4.6 sec. since you asked.

    I will concede the 2007' 335i sedan is the king of performance in the entry-level performance segment this yr.

    Now, are you guys happy ?

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Good job Rocky, you have just single handily killed the forum...

    It takes 2 to argue. I'm sorry I don't lay-down and die because 3 or 4 of you agree and can gang up on me. :P

    Rocky
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Another example of HP isn't everything: NSX

    Engine: 3.2L V6 :surprise:
    Horsepower: 290 @ 7100 RPM
    Torque: 224 @ 5500 RPM :surprise:
    0-60: 4.9 sec

    The reality is, not many people are willing to pay big bucks for a Caddy but a lot of them would do that for a BMW. Like it or not, it's the truth. Until the CTS can prove that it's the class leader in both performance (note: not just HP) and luxury it'll just be an also-ran in the many comparos to come.

    By the way, why are we talking about the CTS-V, M3 and M5 in this forum anyway? Also, why are we comparing CTS-V to 335i? The bottom line is, you can get a 335i for less than 40K (yes, fake leather I know but the 300HP twin turbo comes standard) but you can't do that with CTS-V. The last time I checked, CTS-V started at $52K and that's around where the 335i tops off.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Another example of HP isn't everything: NSX

    Engine: 3.2L V6
    Horsepower: 290 7100 RPM
    Torque: 224 5500 RPM
    0-60: 4.9 sec


    Agree the NSX is a kick-butt car. ;) It also due to it's aluminum body was ultra light.

    The reality is, not many people are willing to pay big bucks for a Caddy but a lot of them would do that for a BMW. Like it or not, it's the truth.

    GM, sells alot of Caddy's. So... :confuse:

    Until the CTS can prove that it's the class leader in both performance (note: not just HP) and luxury it'll just be an also-ran in the many comparos to come.

    As long as it mainly has the goods that the majority of customers want is all that matters. Sales, is the #1 objective. ;)

    By the way, why are we talking about the CTS-V, M3 and M5 in this forum anyway?

    True....

    Also, why are we comparing CTS-V to 335i?

    Agree again.

    The bottom line is, you can get a 335i for less than 40K (yes, fake leather I know but the 300HP twin turbo comes standard) but you can't do that with CTS-V.

    I can come within' arms reach for actual transaction cost. ;)

    The last time I checked, CTS-V started at $52K and that's around where the 335i tops off.

    That is true ;)

    So we agree to at least end this subject.

    Thank-you. I'm glad I don't have to get strong-armed on that topic anymore :P

    Rocky :D
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "So we agree to at least end this subject."

    Talking about a future vehicle that is not and entry level performance sedan and how it's gonna change the world is way off topic. I'm surprised the hosts let the conversation continue for as long as it has.

    Having said that, it's fun to talk about the future. But talking the hypothetical demise of the performance entry level sedan category is ridiculous because GM might be releasing yet another gas thirsty so-so vehicle, while all the time watching the sales of the M5 go to zero.

    You have a strange way of looking at buying a car, a loaded 335i goes for $52K, but a base CTS-V goes for $52???? That's your comparison? Makes no sense. A loaded CTS-V will probably be about $65K to $70K. Much, much more than a loaded 335i.

    Seriously though you can create a new thread at any time here:

    link title

    Since you already found the new thread button for the Holden, I'm sure you can do the same for the CTS-V.
  • A CTS-V competes against the M3 in price, no i-drive based navigation and straight line performance (yawn). In luxury, handling, feel, etc. the M3 tends to win. The CTS-V doesn't have options. It's fully loaded with a 6-speed no poseurs allowed manual tranny and a non i-drive based navigation @ $52K.

    Singling out GM for releasing gas thirsty vehicles is a bit much. V10 M5's come with a gas guzzler tax, too. The CTS has lower mileage than the 330 (30 vs. 26), but the CTS uses non-premium gas.

    Neither one is really an entry level performance sedan considering that the M3 is a coupe.

    IMHO, the 2007 335i beats the 2007 CTS in everything but price (barely), reliability and rear seat room. (I test drove both the 330i w/ sport suspension and the CTS w/ 18" wheels on the same day!) A 2007 3.6 V6 CTS with 18" wheels and the sport suspension will have a MSRP north of $41k.

    I'm glad people brought up the CTS again in these discussions, but err... umm... not quite.

    (Somehow the Cadillac STS replaced the Audi A4 in the topic listings for this forum. Weird.)

    I'm looking forward to the new (future vehicle) 2008 CTS. However, I may get impatient and buy a 2007 G35 instead. (Sorry, BMW fans, but for a daily driver sedan that's likely my sole vehicle, reliability trumps driving dynamics.)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    But the discussion was never about the current lineup. The last few posts have been about how the 2008 CTS-V will demolish the competition and be an M5 beater.

    BTW. I too want a reliable car, and BMWs fit that bill as well as G35s, but not as well as the IS.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    .. are M3's, M5's and some hypothetical/hopeful 2008 CTS-V Entry Level Luxury Performance sedans??

    ...and since when would anyone with any sense of good taste and financial wherewithall buy any GM car over an M3/M5 just because of 0-60 straight line performance?
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,288
    ...and since when would anyone with any sense of good taste and financial wherewithall buy any GM car over an M3/M5 just because of 0-60 straight line performance?

    You've answered your own question.
  • Where on earth have you heard that the 3 series is as reliable as the G35? Everyone I've ever known that's owned a BMW has loved how the car drove but hated taking the car in and arguing with the service manager about fixing XYZ. Moreover, they've complained about power equipment prematurely having issues as well as interiors (headliners, trim, etc.) falling apart. The complaints I hear from G35 owners are of the expenses of brakes and tires. (yawn)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Where on earth have you heard that the 3 series is as reliable as the G35? Everyone I've ever known that's owned a BMW has loved how the car drove but hated taking the car in and arguing with the service manager about fixing XYZ."

    Your experiences have been exactly the opposite of mine and my E46 and the people I know that have BMWs. The people I know that have G35s aren't exactly raving about the stellar ownership experiences. I have to add no one has been stranded on the side of the road with either car.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Yeah, (In the future) we will have to talk about this subject again. 2008' CTS (non-V) vs. 335i. ;)

    I also have to agree with allargon, reliabilty is also a factor that gets little attention. If I was in allargon situation and wanted a daily driver the G35, is the way to go. ;) I wonder if the sedan has recieved the "rear active steer" otherwise known as "4WS" ?

    Rocky

    P.S.

    If you bring up the Audi A4, then the CTS, deservingly belongs in the topic again since even the current CTS, makes the A4 "old and tired" :surprise:
  • I don't personally know any BMW owners who would call their cars reliable or well-made.

    1. My first 330i had major electrical and mechanical issues
    2. Current e90 - brakes are grinding, comfort acess doesn't always work and AC has stopped a few times.
    3. Bro-in-law's e46 - full tranny replacement under 30k miles
    4. Co-worker's e46 - he's replaced so many parts it's insane - always has a sensor going out and right now his car has 3 warning lights on at all times.
    5. Co-workers M3 - SMG stutters, mirrors keep bubbling.
    6. Another co-workers' M3 Cab - top has stopped working more than once.
    7. Bro-in-law's last 745 - the electrical system flat out stopped working.
    8. Buddy's 540i - tranny replacement for over 4k.
    9. Cousins' e46 - constant electrical issues.

    At this point it's safe for me to say BMW makes fun cars. But they have lousy quality control and do not seem to give a hoot about quality or reliability.

    I know 4 people with G35s and they all complain about brakes. That's it. The gripe that their brakes go out every 10-15k miles.
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