Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

kdshapiro · October 2006

VW is not a luxury brand, no matter how you slice it. And I don't believe autotrader.com is the definitive answer for whether a car is in the performance category. BTW VW is getting out of the Phanteon business in case you didn't know. While I like their cars and thought they hit the nail on the head, the public apparently didn't believe the Phanteon was a luxury automobile either and it was a smash failure. Those cars originally went for north of $80K.

kdshapiro · October 2006

I don't know. The TSX has more defining characteristics than a VW as far as being related to this segment. Acura is a luxury manufacturer that produces semi-luxury cars across a wider price range.

To me a VW has the same luxury as an Accord, and C&D measured the Accord to 60 in 5.9.

rockylee · October 2006

Okay, fair enough. You make some good arguments and got the opinions, which I was looking for.

I was interested in what y'all thought. I kinda looked at VW, as a car that might be able to be part of the talk, but according to you guys it doesn't belong here. No problem.

Rocky

louiswei · October 2006

You honestly don't look at VW as a entry lux-brand like lets say a Acura ?

Nope.

Again, it's not all about the HP and 0-60 numbers. Rocky, if you are so obsess with those figures you might as well looking for those modern day Boulevard cruisers rather than entry lux performance sedan.

As matter of fact I would put the TSX into this category before Passat. Why? Because of its outstanding handling even though it's a FWD car. Based on the same reason, I would put Legacy before Passat as well.

By the way, VW has discontinued the Phaeton in 2006 because it was just not selling with the "VW" badge. Why? Because people don't see VW as a luxury brand and they just can't justify to pay over $70K for a VW. Bottom line is, if the manufacture's low end model is selling around $15K then it's definitely not a lux brand no matter how you spin it.

VW starts at $15K with the Rabbit
Acura starts at $27K with TSX
Lexus starts at $32K with IS
Infiniti starts at $30K with G
BMW starts at $33K with 3-series
MB starts at $30K with C-class
Audi starts at $26K with A4
Even the Caddy is starting at $30K with CTS

See my point here?

circlew · October 2006

Blue, I completely agree regarding LEASE ONLY. Whether it Benz, Accura, Lexus, Infinity, JAGUAR. Without the service/warrantee, you loose too much in a buy if you get a lemon. Even though in some states there is a lemon-law for 3-peat failure-to-fix, some cars have multiple problems that will drain your wallet that do not recurr but are costly failure non-the-less. JD Powers Initial quality still show many problems with all car brands.

OW

rockylee · October 2006

See my point here?

Yeah I do see your point.

You are ruining my opinion of VW. :P

Rocky

habitat1 · October 2006

Acura starts at $27K with TSX

Correction, Acura starts with an RSX that starts at $20k, not a heck of a lot more than VW.

As an owner of two Acuras, I obviously like the company and its products. However, I would be the first to admit that Acura has not really leapfrogged Honda in terms of being a true "luxury" brand. The Integra was a Civic based car. The early legend was an Accord based car. The MDX and Pilot are twins. And, arguably, the most singularly unique and innovatively engineered performance car to come out of all of Japan in the last decade was the HONDA S2000.

That said, I don't disagree that VW doesn't belong in the same group you listed. But I don't necessarily buy into the marketing hype of the Acura, Infiniti or Lexus "brand" value. They are only as good as the cars they produce, in my book.

louiswei · October 2006

Correction, Acura starts with an RSX that starts at $20k, not a heck of a lot more than VW.

Not anymore. Acura is dropping the RSX from their 2007 lineup so now TSX is officially their lowest end model.

habitat1 · October 2006

So, I guess you would claim that pre-2007, Acura was in the same category as VW, but now it magically moves up into the "luxury" category??

I guess my beef with the Japanese "luxury" brands (Acura, Lexus, Infiniti) is that they are all partially guilty of over-marketing to us dumb Americans the value of their "brand". At least Lexus and Acura tend to back it up with better customer service, Infiniti I'm not so sure. But if anyone thinks they've bought a fundamentally better engineered car if they've dished out a few thousand extra for an ES350 rather than a Camry V6, they are fooling themselves. A nicer interior and more leather, perhaps. But the same plain vanilla engineering.

Notwithstanding my pocketbook loyalty to Acura, I'd still like to see them put more effort into delivering substance rather than image in some of their offerings, such as the (non) flagship, RL.

mariner7 · October 2006

But if anyone thinks they've bought a fundamentally better engineered car if they've dished out a few thousand extra for an ES350 rather than a Camry V6, they are fooling themselves. A nicer interior and more leather, perhaps. But the same plain vanilla engineering.

So what? There are plenty of wealthy owners who want the latest on the most quiet, luxury ride, and don't care a hoot about performance. Most of the retirees, would you, they or anyone want them to show their Brian Vickers side? All power to Lexus for having a lock on those customers. Most other luxury carmakers wish they could break that lock.

blueguydotcom · October 2006

I don't think that is the focus of some of the manufacturers. Porsche realizes their niche audience wants performance, so courting the luxury-first-former-Buick-owners Lexus chases, really wouldn't work for them. Chasing those luxury-only clients would force Porsche or BMW or Audi to leave their comfort zone for new ground while also risking the alienation of the current clients.

I know BMW owners are often complaining about the company's apparent lack of focus with newer models (specifically the evolution of the 3 series into a lumbering, quiet, massive accountant's car). Look at the e30 and the e9x and you wonder how BMW can even call an e90 a 3 series. They're shifting focus and would be losing clients if any other manufcaturer would create a light, nimble, road-going sedan with RWD.

louiswei · October 2006

But the reality is that with the lumbering, quiet, massive accountant's 3-series BMW is actually doing better and better year after year. Isn't BMW the 2nd most profitable manufacture in 2005 just behind Toyota? I believe they are doing extremely well this year as well.

I personally think BMW is getting closer and closer to strike the perfect balance between performance, comfort and luxury with every new 3-series they designed. Maybe the current 3er is not the pure performer as the old one but the most important thing is that they are definitely selling better model after model.

blueguydotcom · October 2006

but the most important thing is that they are definitely selling better model after model.

Important to shareholders. To fans of driving, what BMW has dones is akin to forcing Halle Berry to gain 25 lbs and take xanax daily. Sure it's still Halle Berry but it's a plus-sized version that's not nearly as much fun.

habitat1 · October 2006

"I know BMW owners are often complaining about the company's apparent lack of focus with newer models (specifically the evolution of the 3 series into a lumbering, quiet, massive accountant's car). Look at the e30 and the e9x and you wonder how BMW can even call an e90 a 3 series. They're shifting focus and would be losing clients if any other manufcaturer would create a light, nimble, road-going sedan with RWD."

I generally agree with you - but that's no fun.

So let me play devil's advocate. You are on record as being critical of 2-door coupes, correct? Yet I know many BMW purists who say the 3-series should never have become a 4 door sedan and that's when all the trouble started. They hang on to the belief that the 3 series should have continued as an extension of the 2 door only 2002tii and original 320i. They look at every 3 series sedan with disdain.

So are you sure you aren't trying to have it both ways? It would be a lot easier for BMW to maintain proper proportions and weight if they weren't trying to accomodate 4 doors and 4 6-footers. I don't think Halle Barry's legs would look too svelte if she also had to have the ability to carry you and me on her shoulders

brightness04 · October 2006

Yikes! I was just trying to warm myself up to the idea of leasing one of those buggers after being thoroughly turned off by their unreliability many many years ago on two 5 series sedans. I'd rather have a car that delivers 80% at all time than delivering 100% 80% of the time but zero the remaing 20% of the time. Dr. Murphy is not kind in the allocation that 20%.

habitat1 · October 2006

And I guess I have to play devil's advocate with your math.

If I was in the market for a mid-size luxury sports sedan today, my biggest challenge would be deciding whether or not the new 3 series was big enough or the 5 series would be required. Because, unfortunately there are NO other cars by Lexus, Mercedes, Audi, Acura, Infiniti or anyone else that offered the level of sport and performance that I am looking for. There is no "80%" alternative in my book, when it comes to my requirement of a crisp shifting manual transmission, nimble handling/tight steering, fun to drive luxury sports sedan.

No disrespect to BGDC, but the idea that BMW's are built like crap and break down a lot is, in the words of someone else, pure BS. I have dozens of friends, business associates, neighbors, etc. that have late model BMW's and their experiences fall in line with what the surveys seem to show. BMW might not be ready to claim the reliability title form Lexus, but the differences are really relatively minimal. I assure you, they are not becoming Starbucks addicts in the waiting room of the BMW service departments.

So, in my opinion, over the last 20 years, BMW (and even Porsche) have made significant strides to close the gap in relaibility with the best from Japan, while maintaining or increasing their lead in driving dynamics and performance. The math I would use is that you gan get 5% better reliability going to a the premium Japanese manufacturers, but give up 50% in terms of what makes the driving exprerience enjoyable for me when you compare the 335i and 550i 6-speed to any of their Japanese counterparts. I respect that other's would look at it differently.

blueguydotcom · October 2006

Find it funny how the rankings clearly show BMW is lagging in quality and reliability yet many BMW people insist they're not that far behind lexus. Here's a JD POwer report showing Lexus with something like 136 problems per 100 cars and BMW over 212. That, to me, is a massive difference.

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/charts/2006133a.gif

dewey · October 2006

Statistics, statistics.

Show me a desired result and I will show you a statistic to prove it!

So now my question to you is how irritable these 212 problems are for BMW buyers? BMW's 212 problems compared to the 136 problems of a Lexus sounds quite significant but apparently it is not as significant as you may think.

The latest Strategic Vision's survey on customer satisfaction ranks BMW owners as the most satisfied owners in the whole auto industry. In other words those 212 problems you point out are so minor that BMW owners still remain the most satisfied car owners in USA.

Here are some details about the survey:

San Diego-based Strategic Vision surveyed more than 64,000 people who purchased new vehicles from October 2005 to March 2006. Participants were questioned after 90 days of ownership. The study, separate from Strategic Vision's quality survey, tries to capture whether consumers believe they got their money's worth and factors in emotional components.

Overall, BMW AG outperformed all companies, including Honda, but because it sells only luxury vehicles and the Mini sports coupe and convertible, it is not considered a full-line automaker.

SOURCE:STRATEGIC VISION

If I had your problems with BMWs I would flee to another automaker. But in my case I own two BMWs and so far (crossing my fingers) these past eight years I have not confronted major problems with them. And no I am not one of those types who buys cars mainly for their reliability nor am I one of those types who will tolerate a badly made lemon :lemon:

rockylee · October 2006

agree, they are nice but aren't nearly as reliable.

Rocky

blueguydotcom · October 2006

I keep driving my cars. Hell, I haven't contacted BMW about any of the problems with my car. Too much freaking trouble. I figure as long as it drives fine (once the new tires are on this weekend i'm sure the drive will improve drastically over the ride with those craptastic runflats), I'll drive the car. When the engine eventually breaks down or I return for my oil change - which ever comes first - I'll handle the other problems.

Plus BMW's shown an inability to fix electrical problems. Failure of my AC and my comfort access would fall into the electrical category. No sense in dropping off the car, getting a wholly horrible loaner (X3, 325i or even worse some free rental) and then hearing the nitwits at BMW say, "We can't fix this but we can disable this..."

habitat1 · October 2006

"Find it funny how the rankings clearly show BMW is lagging in quality and reliability yet many BMW people insist they're not that far behind lexus."

Yeah, and I find it funny how that same JD Powers study directly contradicts their other study, putting Porsche on top of Lexus: Porsche beats Lexus. And in this study, on about the 5th paragraph, you will find:

Without considering both quality factors, one might fail to recognize vehicles that are, in fact, excellent in certain ways, said Ivers. For example, BMW vehicles have among the fewest defects and malfunctions, along with Toyota. But BMW approaches controls and displays in a way that creates some problems for customers, leading to more design-related problems overall than Toyota incurs.

Look, if you are beholden to JD Powers, go ahead and trade your BMW in for a Mercury, Buick or Cadillac (#'s 2,3 & 4 in the survey you quote). And enjoy your ride.

I'm just saying that, as far as my own broad based research, BMW is not "massively" behind the Japanese in quality or dependability. Maybe I'm too cynical to take any one piece of data too seriously, especially when a first year B-School student with a C+ in probablility and statistics could shoot so many holes in JD Powers that they'd be ranking Smith and Wesson ahead of Lexus.

I can certainly appreciate your grudge against BMW if you've had bad personal experiences. But you may recall Consumer Reports rated the previous generation 5 series as the best car they ever rated. And the 99 they gave it has still not been surpassed by Lexus or anyone else. I'm sure you could shoot holes in that with a 44 Magnum, which is EXACTLY my point.

blueguydotcom · October 2006

Habitat, I concede stats can show just about anything (1st year of business school covered that

).

Personal experience and all the people I know have the same comments: bad sensors, poor electricals, poor trannies, bad coils.

You've heard otherwise. Strange. In the mild climate of so cal all I hear is how BMWs fall apart, yet in the widely varied climes throughout the rest of the country the BMW is just as good as the Lexus (or just a tad worse). Whatever.

Dead horse is beat. Can we move on?

For instance, runflats on our cars. Anyone think this is a good idea? The e9x BMWs have RFTs. No other car in this class does.

habitat1 · October 2006

Yeah, we can move on. And I have never had the unfortunate experience of owning a car with run flats, but from what I've heard, "suck" would be a compliment.

pat · October 2006

I don't think I have ever seen anyone post anywhere that they like them/the concept.

designman · October 2006

I think run-flats are horrible, at least the Bridgestone Turanzas that are on the 3-series, especially the 18" version which make the car darty in my opinion. If I buy a 335i or 328i it will have to be contingent on the dealer swapping them out. Either that or I would buy my own and sell the run flats... bummer. I would really push the dealer and corporate on the issue though. BMW needs to get the message.

dewey · October 2006

. Either that or I would buy my own and sell the run flats...

Then where would you put your spare tire? Not much space in the trunk.

dewey · October 2006

Electrical issues are definitley not BMW's strength.

In my old 98 BMW323i I've had ongoig issues with my stereo.
Last year I replaced a SRS control unit, detector and Satellite sensor. That was not cheap :sick:

Mechanically so far nothing unusual in terms of problems( I am still crossing my fingers).

blueguydotcom · October 2006

No spare. Carry a mobility kit. Switching to normal tires, the reduction in unsprung weight, improvement in general ride and improvement in handling are hard to ignore.

designman · October 2006

Then where would you put your spare tire? Not much space in the trunk.

Porsches don't have spares either and they don't have run-flats. Pretty soon we'll be getting cars delivered sitting up on milk crates and they'll be telling us to bring our own wheels and tires... and charging us extra to put them on.

;-)

habitat1 · October 2006

Porsches don't have spares either and they don't have run-flats.

Thanks for reminding me. I'm taking a 800 mile rountrip this weekend for a college reunion. Do I take the 911 and it's can of tire goo, or wimp out and take the TL with a doughnut? :confuse:

blueguydotcom · October 2006

Porsche.

kyfdx · October 2006

Ditto...

nyccarguy · October 2006

Take the 911

blueguydotcom · October 2006

What bmw board(s) would you recommend?

Bimmerfest and e90 off the top of my head.

It will be interesting to see when people start modding the 335. That's one of the beauties of turbo engines! I must admit I would be a bit leery of chipping a BMW--at least if the electrical issues I keep hearing about are true, and especially in a 1st year model which typically get new mappings in subsequent years (which can over-ride the mods)

A guy named vishnu has created a piggyback type of ecu controller. You attach it on the outside, thus it's easily removed before you visit the dealership.

jzalkin · October 2006

I went to the Miami Auto show last night and here are some of my thoughts:

Infiniti:
If you liked the previous G35, you will like the new one. If you did not - then the new car will probably not change your mind. The interior looks better (as do most newer Nissan's), but still seem a little off in terms of feel and flow. It is so hard to tell a G35 from a M35/45 in a glance - it takes a stare (will it help raise value of the G or cheapen the M? - time will tell)

BMW:
The new coupe is nice, but not that striking when it is surrounded by all other models. BMW interiors still seem to be a weak link of the car.

Lexus:
The new LS looks as a classier version of the 7 series. Interiors are nice, but each model seems to have the same feel from IS to LS. Just gets larger. It is easy to see how the new LS will retain loyalists and add a few sales based on the reaction the car was getting.

Mercedes:
Even the carpeting on their section was more plush than the others. High status, style without the BMW controversy and the sticker price to match.

Jaguar:
The new XK-R is great. Retains the beauty of the base model and makes it distinctive enough to show it is special. If the designer of this model works on the others - they may have something.

Audi:
VW and Audi are so much a like. Audi is loosing a little of its distinctiveness. No S8 there which was a let down. Audi lacked flair since the new model that they had was just a revised A4 Cab to have the new nose and engine. Anyone else dislike the new steering wheel also? It reminds me of a bumper car with the small round pad that sticks out. (I had an '04 A4 cab and loved that 3 spoke)

Acura:
The new MDX will be a hit - very nice. The S type TL did not get the attention that I thought it would. The TSX is an odd car - above a standard family car, but not quite the level of the BMW, Mercedes, Infiniti, etc. The MDX was the only car that people were really checking out.

Hyundai:
Not relevant to this discussion, but they had the best models (humans) by far. Looked at the Santa Fe because one asked us if we wanted to hear about it. Actually a nice SUV - a brand on the upswing.

Lincoln:
Whoa, what are they thinking? The Navigator is horrible compared to the Cadillac, Chevy, and GMC.

Mercury:
They know how to dress up a Ford. The Milan is very nice for the money.

dewey · October 2006

I will wait until my run flats get worn and then I will replace them with normal tires.
I will definitely be buying normal snow tires this November.

03accordman · October 2006

Way to go dewey; I am also buying a winter wheel/tire set for my 330i sprt next month. Thinking of Dunlop M3 DSSTs

laurasdada · October 2006

Nice write up. Every year I attend the New England "International" Auto Show (one of these days I'll have to road trip to NYC for the NYIAS. I attended that almost every year with my Dad and alone since probably the late 60s!) and consistently Hyundai has the best SWAG!

I look forward to the NE show next month.

mariner7 · October 2006

I'd be less inclined to shop BMW and more willing to shop Infiniti in the entry-level-luxury segment.

-- Washington Post

No, it's not a BMW 3 Series. But it's without question the 3's biggest rival when it comes to luxury/performance sedans. Infiniti's G35 sedan, since its introduction, has possessed outstanding dynamics, brilliant styling and a low-rent price tag the Germans could only hope for. Now, with its engine fully updated, it's a true class leader.

The G's revised 3.5-liter V6 makes an impressive 306 hp and 268 lb-ft of torque. But those numbers only tell part of the story. The rest becomes clear as the G's tach needle blasts straight past its old 6600-rpm redline on its way to a genuinely usable 7500 rpm. Those extra 900 revs allow the true enthusiast some serious involvement that would never happen with a lesser engine. Like, say, the 3.0-liter straight-6 in BMW's 330i.

And the G will hold its own against the 3 in any handling showdown  our slalom tests show only 0.3-mph difference between the two in the slalom. Heck, I even prefer the G's chassis over the legendary Bimmer. And that just doesn't happen very often.

-- Edmunds editor Jacquot

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=116681/pageId=10- 1741

habitat1 · October 2006

Mercedes:
Even the carpeting on their section was more plush than the others. High status, style without the BMW controversy and the sticker price to match.

What's the BMW controversy? It seems that most of the Mercedes loyalists I know, including a close friend who owned 4-5 pre-merger, would claim that BMW is "pure" whereas Mercedes has been "Chryslerized". Quality and reliability have suffered, the image tarnished, etc. If there is a controversy amoung these nameplates, it seems that Mercedes would be the one with more questions to answer.

dewey · October 2006

I still have to do my research on winter tires. Is there a reason why you want to pick Dunlops M3 DSSTs?

dewey · October 2006

Infiniti's G35 sedan, since its introduction, has possessed outstanding dynamics, brilliant styling and a low-rent price tag the Germans could only hope for.

A low price tag for a G35?

For me all I want is a sport package and a manual tranny. The only available G35 that has a sport package and a manual tranny in Canada is a G35 Coupe M6 which sells for about $1K US$ less than my soon to be manual BMW335i sedan with a sport package.(I converted the CDN$ MSRP)

I dont consider $1K less as a bargain basement price for a G35. But if I did not want a sport package and liked slushboxes then yes a G35 is a compelling choice. But such a G35 would be a car with limited appeal for someone who likes good handling.

qbrozen · October 2006

I dont consider $1K less as a bargain basement price for a G35.

Big difference between US and Canada. Edmunds is in the US, hence the quote.

We're looking at something like a $6k difference here.

dewey · October 2006

That is why I would never consider buying an overpriced Infiniti G35.
In Canada the BMW335i sedan/coupe is priced more agressively in relation to its competition.

qbrozen · October 2006

i don't blame ya.

now, is the G35 priced higher or the bimmer priced lower compared to the US? what's the base msrp of the 335 in CDN$?

i'm just curious.

dewey · October 2006

49,990 CDN$ for a BMW 335i sedan.

Compared to US prices the G35 and 335 are substantially higher in Canada than in the USA. Canadian pricing is almost always unfavorable when compared to US pricing.

qbrozen · October 2006

yup. Seems to be about 10% higher there.

so I guess that means the G35 is about 26-27% higher than here. Ouch!

booyahcramer · October 2006

I think the G's interior and controls are just aweful, the styling is very feminine, the fuel 'econonmy' is weak, and the brake issues are too punitive for me to want to own one.

The 335 has little to worry about.

cdnpinhead · October 2006

Helpful review.

Thanks.

jjdow · October 2006

First - thanks to all the posts here and in the other forums on BMW's. The 330i w/ Sport and Premium is my first Bimmer and I love it. I traded in a 6 yr old CLK430 and this is an upgrade for $15k + less.

I almost allowed the RFT issue to keep me out of this car, but I'm glad I didn't. This car w/ Potenza's drives great and is quiet. I have 6K miles so far, and also have had no other reason to go to the dealer. My CLK would barely get 20K of miles on a set of tires, and I tried 3 different brands. That's to be expected w/ any car with staggered wheels that can't be rotated with these softer tires. If you dont have SP, then you can rotate and get more.

The car is a little rough with the SP suspension and these tires on rough, patched up roads. But on a decent (not perfect) streets, and some of the new highways we have in Tx, this car is a dream to drive. Smooth, quiet, and it drives straight as an arrow without holding onto the wheel. It seems to drive better at 90 than 40. The cornering just at agreesive peeds is flat and smooth - awesome.

Other points:
1. As the car breaks-in, the quickness is improving. Its plenty quick, especially if you drive in manual.
2. I really like the seats, and the adjustable air bladders on ht limbar and sides.
3. I play my iPOD through the connector in the armwest - great soundquality! The stereo is very goos as I'm now gettting hi-def radio. turn it up a little an you wont hear anything.

thanks again to all the helpful info that untilmately put me in the ultimate driving machine

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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