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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans
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Comments
IIHS did three tests. Two of the tests were done on the 2001 vehicles. The fuel plange leaked during the second of these two tests. This caused IIHS to look more closely at the first test, where hey discovered that the fuel plange was cracked. While it did not leak, the part was cracked. Only in the third test, a 2002 model with the redesigned part, did the fuel plange remain intact. So by my count, we only have all of the information available for two tests. In both of the tests the fuel plange was broken (100% failure rate), and in one of the tests, the fuel leaked (50% failure rate). While I am sure that the rate of failure would be much smaller than this (in fact, it probably is a very isolated event), the 2001 Chrysler/Dodge minivan's have been on the road for less than 1 year. If a vehicle had been involved in a crash that involved gasoline leakage and an injury, we may not have heard of it. Lawyers often get a gag order on cases that are pending, or settle cases early to avoid publicity. There simply is not enough time that has gone past for us to make a fully informed decision of the safety of the 2001 D/C minivans.
Many have said that any vehicle could/would have a fuel leak with a 40 MPH crash. However, only two vehicles (not two minivans, but two vehicles period), had any sign of fuel leak. These were the D/C minivans and the Isuzu. No other cars had a fuel leak.
That being said, when it comes to the health of my 22 month old daughter, nothing is worth the risk. Any of you who say that the risk is small, all I have to say is that any unneeded risk is too much. I had bought the 2001 Chrysler Town & Country Lxi. Luckily, I found a dealer who had a 30 day money back/no questions asked policy. I took advantage of that policy. I do think that the D/C vehicles drive better, look better, have nice amenities, etc., but my daughter is my #1 concern. She is alot better than comfortable seats, climate control, etc.
As for you pessimists who think that I am over-reacting, look more closely into Chrysler's responses into safety concerns. In 1998, after years of fighting a recall of their safety belts on the Cirrus and Stratus, a US District court judge ordered a recall, resulting in 91,000 cars being recalled. When it comes to minivans, D/C's recall performance has also been abysmal. Remember the rear lift gates and the transmissions that shifted into drive without a foot on the brake? Both took years of lawsuits and news stories before they were corrected.
I thought that the DaimlerBenz folks would "right the ship", but it seems as if it is business as usual at Dodge/Chrysler.
My daughter and wife will be much safer (both according to IIHS and the NHTSA tests) in a Honda or a Toyota. I know where my money is going. -- For the safety of my family.
Don't believe me, see the links below.
www.freep.com /business/qcirrus5.htm
www.autopedia.com /html/Recall_Chrysler032198.html
www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ ce/html/0102.htm
www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ ce/cecompoutc.asp
www.nhtsa.dot.gov/hot/ rollover/rollover20010620.pdf
You seem to love your family and your small daughter just as any good parrent would, so why would you ever even think of putting your loved ones in a vehicle made by a company that, according to you, has never been good with saftey in the first place? I'm getting mixed signals here and it's rather confusing...to me at least.
I know I feel perfectly safe in our 2000 Chrysler Town & Country and would never even consider trading it in for a boxy, boaring, plain Honda Odyssey. With that said, Chrysler is not the only car company to be questioned on their past safety reccord. I'm sure you could dig up some pretty heavy dirt on just about every major car company out there, including the emaculate Honda Motors Company.
As for Chrysler replacing the fuel part in its late 2001 model and 2002 minivans, it only seemed a logical step to prevent this entire media frenzy over a minor fuel leak in one of many simulated crashes from occuring again in next years crash test.
-Adam
Seatbelt defects and fuel leaks included
.
http://www.naplesnews.com/today/business/d222357a.htm
I certainly hope that a through inspection of all fuel related parts becomes part of the IIHS test after this.
Why are we getting so emotionally attached to the machines we drive and acting like the criticisms are personal attacks on our being? Can't this topic get back to poking fun at disappearing seats vs. triple zoned a/cs? Please Chrysler do the right thing and recall this part. I'd much rather be poking fun at somebody's quirky likes or peeves in a vehicle then writing about this.
If this was a Honda, Ford, Toyota, etc. van with this defect I would feel the same way on this subject. I gave up the BWM as the daily ride and now drive a van strictly for my family's safety. Yes, it makes me feel damn macho every time I look in the rearview mirror and see my loved ones behind me in the mini-van.
We bought vans for the safety of our families and now some want to rationalize away a safety risk. I know it is a small risk but we as consumers should not allow this attitude no matter what vehicle or manufacturer.
No, I am not just talking. This quote from odd1 is a perfect example of what I mean.
"But you refuse to think about the fact it could go the other way and ignite the fuel in the tank. Is this how owners of a pre July '01 D/Cs rationalize gambling with their families' lives?"
Now how in the hell do you expect people who have pre-July 2001 DC minivans NOT to take a remark like that personally??? You are saying that owners of these vans are WILLINGLY "gambling" with the safety of their own beloved families. If this is not a personal remark, than please tell me what is.
-Adam
2000 Chrysler Town & Country LX
FWIW, ANY fuel leaked in a collision is a serious hazard. The flash point of gasoline is not particularly high, IIRC, and it doesn't take much to ignite.
Thank you,
Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
If we as consumers don't object to how companies handle possible dangerous products then, we deserve what companies give us. That was more my point. I wasn't trying to rile up Chrysler apologists.
Adam- I was trying to point out that we put so much of our person worth in what we own and drive that at times we defend things to an extreme and don't acknowledge possible negatives. I changed my lifestyle for the protect of my family and I don't understand how people can rationalize a risk albeit very small that is real. Maybe at your age with the maturity you have shown here you can understand where I'm coming from on this point. I certainly could not at the same age. Having children changes how you live and your outlook on many things.
Don't get me started on people who buy mini-vans for their family's safety and then drive them at 80+ mph.
How many times you've seen people using their cell phones next to the gas pump?
How many times you've seen a mechanics smokes while working on a car?
Finally, how many times you've seen a 40mph accident?
We looked again more closely at the Grand Caravans and purchased a very well equipped 1999 GC SE for $1025 LESS than the price of the Odyssey LX-C. At the time, I had intended to drive the 99 GC SE for 2 or 3 years and either trade it in or sell the 99 GC and get a 2002 Honda Odyssey.
We drove my sister's 2001 Odyssey EX 34.9 miles when it had 3677 miles on odometer at speeds up to 80 MPH (On I-80 where speed limit is 75 MPH...but people are driving well above 75 MPH) and were VERY impressed. We then drove our 99 GC SE in exactly the same place but it was only 34.0 miles for our GC when it had 30,809 miles on the odometer. Ody quicker 65-75 MPH but GC is quicker 0 to 30 MPH. Both are equally quiet, smooth, and nice to drive. The Automatic Temperature worked flawlessly in the Ody EX...fan speed would adjust if I adjusted temperature setting on Ody. Using manual control, I noticed the Ody fan has about a dozen different speeds. Our GC has only 5 speeds for fan.
We did NOT detect any extra road noise from the well for the "Magic Seat" area. The Magic Seat had been folded into the floor when we drove it. Although our GC has the top of the line Infinity Sound, we were also completely satisfied with standard equipment Ody EX stereo...but would miss the Cassette player our DC has.
Guess what? each has distinct advantages and it would be just as difficult to select one over the other now as it was in March 1999.
...."I just tried trading in my 2000 EX w/ navigation, leather (after-market of course) and 11k miles and was told that it was only worth $21,500 and that was from the mouth of a Honda dealer(s). "
Very clear and concise. The owner paid MSRP and it was over $30,000. The trade in at 11k miles was $21,500.
And of course NADA and others do not add extra for many options just like his aftermarket leather. The trade-in values are the basic equipped as purchased by fleet, rental, etc.
The same policy many use to bad mouth DC should also apply to a Honda Odyssey. Trade-in is very low on ANY vehicle...Dealers make more money on trade-ins than on new vehicles.
A: Many, usually from people who top off their tanks.
Q: How many times you've seen people using their cell phones next to the gas pump?
A: Several (less than 10). I wouldn't try it myself though.
Q: How many times you've seen a mechanics smokes while working on a car?
A: Actually, never. Then again, I don't call go to the mechanics too often.
Q: Finally, how many times you've seen a 40mph accident?
A: Several, on city streets, usually due to lane changes and/or at intersections. Only seen one on the highway, where a volvo stationwagon lost a tire and swerved across several lanes, didn't hit anyone though.
As for the gasoline thing, it's a crap shoot. If gasoline did spill on the floor and you were standing about 3 feet away and lit a match, would the gas ignite? Who knows for certain? By the way, it would be the gasoline vapor that ignites, not the liquid. Also, you do not need a spark to start a fire, just the three requirements in the flammability triangle: fuel, catalyst (usually oxygen), and activation energy (e.g. heat, spark).
Just wanted to clear some stuff up. Heck, if we could predict the time, location, and nature of all accidents wouldn't life be grand (rather than 5~10 grand, okay never mind...)??
I did buy a 2001 Chrysler Town & Country Lxi and returned it to the dealership. For anyone who doesn't believe me, post your email address and I will gladly send you a copy of the registration cancellation (I will however disguise my last name and address).
I did not know about D/C history of safety related issues prior to buying my 2001 Town & Country. After becoming frustrated by Daimler Chrysler's response to the IIHS tests, I have done a lot of research. That research has led me to believe that DaimlerChrysler's response to safety concerns is not an isolated event. Had I known that D/C had such a history, I would not have bought a D/C product.
Minivans are not fun to drive, sexy etc. My family drives one because it is functional and hopefully safe. I did like the Town & Country the best prior to the safety tests. In my mind, it was the clear winner for drive, comfort, features, etc. However, saftey was my number one concern when it comes to a minivan. This is not a sports car. Please do not call me a liar or hurl any further insults at me. I have only told the truth thus far. I have not challenged anyone's morality or judgement. Please do the same.
Difficult to access responsibility issue as there are too many cases of "Rigged Tests" that do not represent life in the real world. Remember the infamous "GM Exploding Pickup" Fraud by a major television network?
Reliability is more affected by driver/owner responsibility. When the driver is NOT the owner, the normal maintenance schedule is flagrantly ignored as are normal, decent driving habits. Too many people simply do not follow correct driving and maintenance procedures.
AND...there can be lemons in any vehicle just as some are so-so and the lucky buyer gets a ZERO problem vehicle.
As for reliability, yes it certainly makes a difference if the owner performs proper maintenance and drives in a sensible manner. But even so, certain vehicles exhibit much better reliability than others. For example, I took meticulous care of my 94 DC minivan, but had the typical owner experience for that MY. Lots of minor flaws (every one of the interior panels had to be re-glued within 4 months, for example), two early failed A/Cs, and a failed tranny before 50k miles. And please don't repost your theory that trannies only failed on DC vans where the owners did not follow prescribed maintenance ... we did EVERYTHING right with this one, including frequent tranny fluid changes with the correct fluid and coming to a full stop before changing gears.
As for safety, yes it is true that a defensive driver will have a far lower chance of collision than a normal driver. But even the best defensive driver can get into an accident outside their control. For example, my only serious accident was when a car travelling the opposite direction on a two lane road suddenly turned left and crossed in front of me without signalling or slowing down ... there was no time for any avoidance maneuver. In these cases the substantial differences in crashworthiness come into play. Measures of crashworthiness can be reasonably debated, but by mentioning the "rigged test" of a few years ago you certainly are not, I presume, implying that the IIHS or NHTSA tests are rigged? The parameters of these tests are published years in advance and the tests are open to complete inspection by vehicle manufacturers. Therefore, it is reasonable to question the safety commitment of a manufacturer of a car that does poorly in such a test.
My opinion is the IIHS should have made it a priority to test the best selling new model for 2001 first. Now it's somewhat unrealistic to expect DC to recall 300,000+ vehicles for something as questionable as this.
The only vehicle we had with as many various problems as you had with your 94 DC was a NEW 1972 Volvo 145S. Volkswagens came close but Volvo was the worst. Trim had to be attached to dash with screws. Carburetor springs broke and engine would not idle. Was more difficult to shift gears than my father's old 1940's Reo farm truck (The 1936 Reo shifted more easily than the later model). Pneumatic lift assist broke loose off tailgate. Rear axle seals leaked on both sides. One rear disc rotor had to be replaced and the list goes on.
Perhaps the reason we like our 99 GC so much is that in 29 months and 32,628 miles it has had ZERO problems. Average overall mileage is 23.7 MPG with 3.3L V6. Everything works perfectly in HOT, COLD, or moderate weather.
Based on our experience, there is no better vehicle made than a DC minivan. If our transmission fails, we will not buy another DC minivan. We may try another brand but so far we have not found anything else with all the nice comfort, convenience, and "gimmicks" (if people prefer to call the separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger, the heating coils at base of windshield, the lighted controls on front doors, the built in child safety seat, the Overhead Console display that has compass, outside temperature, and Trip Computer, etc. gimmicks.)
It is Chryslers problem and they need to recall all vehicles. Why do you theink they fixed the problem immediately, so when eventually forced into the recall they would have fewer vehicles to do. In my opinion they are sleazy and dop not deserve anyones consideration for a new vehicle purchase!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But to reemphasize, my point was that car reliability varies greatly even for well-maintained cars. Your experiences with VW and Volvo demonstrate that, since I assume you maintained those vehicles well.
Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
I think my first clue that the 94 MY DC vans were really, really unreliable was when I made my first appointment with the service department. The guy told me, before I said anything about the reason for the appointment: "Make a detailed list of all the issues you have with the van in advance before you come in." I never, before or since, had a new car that required a detailed list for the problems on the first service visit.
However, I can also say that half of my first year problems could have and should have been caught by the dealer inspection. Loose interior panels, leaking rear differential, seat belt problems, etc. The same is true of my 01 DC van ... if they'd just applied the recall repair properly as part of the dealer prep I'd still have no service trips to date for the van instead of the 2 I've made.
Scanner, this makes sense. What you don't know, however, is that the IIHS *did* test the DC vans early on. DC twice asked for a retest, and the IIHS delayed publishing the results in order to accomodate DC.
I didn't realise than the leaking rear differential was a widespread problem. I too had the problem, and it was fortunately taken care of under the 7 year powertrain warranty, albeit with only one month left before the expiry date. In my case, it was a very slow leak though, so initially they topped if off. After the service manager (nice guy, I might add) approved it the next day, they replaced the rear differential and rear main seal I think.
I feel fortunately that I don't have the peeling paint problem that so many '92 Chrysler minivans have, or the Bendix ABS failures that the '91 Chryslers had. Knock on wood again. I did have the peeling paint problem from the wiper arms though, both front and back. It really made the van look far older than it was and eventually I just resprayed the entire arm with some black, non-glossy high heat barbaque paint. Matches perfectly, and it's not longer an eyesore
As for the list, I didn't get a chance to write one up, and hence forgot to ask them to check the rear defroster at the oil change last week. It has suddenly been reduced to about 10-20% of its effectiveness.
Always a pleasure :-)
Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
In summary, my most annoying repairs were:
* A/C problems. First failure occurred day before a 2 week vacation. Had partial A/C while driving through a desert on a hot day. Kids were great, though.
* Starter failures. Twice, repaired once under warranty.
* Tranny failure.
* Broken timing belt.
* Radiator/pump failure. Twice.
* Approximately 80,000 recalls (okay, I exaggerate slightly), including the "non-recall" recall of the rear hatch latch.
* Also had a broken engine block support that was detected in my just-before-warranty-ended inspection.
As for the 01, I've had two minor breakages. The rubber covering the emergency brake pedal came off, and the cute cell phone holder fell off. Oh yes, and I've had the previously-reported problem of the air bag warning light coming on infrequently. I'm scheduling another visit to the service department this week. Even so, though, I have to say the design and construction of the 01 is a quantum leap ahead of the 94 in quality.
A call was made to BCAA (British Columbia Automobile Association) and within half an hour, the technician arrived. He found that the starter flywheel, after starting, would not go back into the starter and hence was being dragged along with the engine. He could not really explain why the starter kept cranking after the key was removed though. There was an explanation by the service advisor but I can't remember it at this point.
One of the more recent faults was the "Check engine" light coming on and then subsequently going off. This was traced to a faulty MAF sensor, I believe, which caused the engine to run a bit richer than normal. It did explain why the fuel economy had decreased slightly.
No problems with the pedals, but both front wheel bearings were replaced. I did damage one (left side) by smacking into a curb at about 35-40 km/hr with the steering wheel at right full lock after sliding on black ice. The impact also put a quarter sized dent in the edge of the transmission fluid pan (I think) which was fortunately thick enough not to crack. A 3" chunk of the aluminum alloy wheel rim did fly off after driving at highway speeds right after the accident (which, as you can imagine, threw the alignment + balance off + bent the lower A arm of the suspension).
Fortunately, the A/C is still nice, cool, and more importantly functioning properly. The timing belt hasn't created any problems, but the tensioner pulley has been replaced a couple of times. You probably know all about the jingle bells noise characteristic of Chrysler vans, or the creaking noise from the transmission shifting gears (outside the vehicle).
The van does eat a bit of oil right now at 60K miles on the odometer; it ate more before they found that the oil pan gasket was leaking slightly. That's where the oil pressure gauge comes in handy. When it drops below a certain amount after startup, I know that it's about time to add a bit more oil to the crankcase. The van has, amazingly, no more rattles. They seem to have quelled themselves altogether. The seats are also in brand new shape since there were seat covers on all of them until I removed them recently.
At this point in time, it's not worth selling the van since it's only worth about $10K, if not less. Better to have it around as a (ironically) standby. ;-)
However, I had been driving Chevrolet Impalas (NEW 1963, 1967, 1978,1980),1 NEW 1965 Buick, 1 NEW 1987 Chevy R-10 pickup, 1 NEW 1991 Astro so I was not used to having problems with vehicles. My GM vehicles NEVER gave me the problems those damned imported vehicles did.
The 1980 Chevy Citation had loose bolts and oil leaks that were promptly fixed under warranty by the Chevy dealer. The synchronizers went out on 2nd gear after the warranty had expired and the Chevy dealer rebuilt the transmission AT NO COST to me. We shortly thereafter traded off the Citation (my drive-to-work vehicle) on a NEW 1981 Chevy C-10 pickup. The 1981 C-10 was not up to GM standards and ran poorly in cold weather until warmed up. I solved the problem by installing a manual choke.
The 1987 Chevy R-10 has been mechanically perfect. It did start running roughly once at about 8 or 9 years of age. The cure: new spark plugs and cleaning of throttle body fuel injection. The paint has peeled on hood and top of cab, but I much prefer mechanical perfection to a body that has no paint peeling at 10 years of age.
Now we own a 99 GC SE with 32,626 miles at 29 months of age and it has had abolutely ZERO problems. No Odyssey or Toyota can be any better.
1988 Plymouth Grand Voyager LE (traded at 84,145 miles)
- Mitsu 3.0 V6 head gasket blew up
- A battery that would always almost go dead if too many ac systems were on. This is where the battery gauge came in handy because I could watch and tell when the battery was about to die especially at stop lights with the ac on. The '96 and '01 are kind of crappy in the respects that all they have are idiot lights. Those idiot lights would have told be jack if I had had the same problems I had in my blue van that I did in the '96 and '01.
- Electrical problem involving having to drive the car EVERY day, or else the car wouldn't start. Talk about surprised when we took a vacation right after we got the NEW van and it wouldn't start. NO dealer or our mechanic could figure it out even after 8 years. I felt bad for the dealer we traded it to who had no idea that it would be dead if he tried to drive it or give someone a test drive. From then on, we had to have neighbors drive our car every so often everyday while on vacations.
- Overhead console readout (just temp and direction readouts in '88) Towards the end, the readout would say it was 120-145 degrees F when it was anywhere from 30 to 80 degrees F out
- Loose trim pieces all around
- bubbling wood paneling that was starting to peel I guess after too much rain and too many car washes
- Many visits to the dealer for small things, which led to the obligatory, "We can't let you walk out of here driving that 'death trap' 100 things need to be replaced. Hand me $500 dollars" After so many $500-$600 dollar visits for what was probably nothing, just there way of getting our money, we almost bought a 1992 Town & Country after putting in nearly $10,000 worth of repairs from the dealer on a $20,000 van, until we found a reliable no nonsense mechanic that knew what he was doing
1996 Town & Country LXi (traded at 40,312 miles)
- after not even one day of ownership, rattles were coming from the front passenger window, and the passenger sliding door
- two weeks after buying the car, the rattling driver's side rear quarter vent window came unglued from the thing that pushes it out, so basically anyone could enter our car by opening that window
- Within weeks of that, the passenger side rear quarter vent window rattled and came unglued, too
- the third row seat after a month would NOT stop rattling. It was awful, and it never truly stopped even after 4-5 years we had the car, even though the dealer replaced the whole assembly 2 times
- rotors warped after 12,000 miles. Was told by Chrysler and later by my mechanic to just go get Midex or something, because Chrysler rotors were just plain crap (still waiting for the '01's to warp)
- after less than a year, the rear shocks had to be replaced, because of an incessant rattling which they deemed were the shock absorbers
- After about three years, we experienced door locks that would sometimes lock and sometimes wouldn't
- Around the same time as that, we got the phantom windshield wipers, plus they would stop in whatever position they were in of the car was turned off
2001 Town & Country Limited (now at 5,340 miles)
- Nothing, THANK GOD!
See, other than the electrical issues I had in the '88, which I could handle and understand what to do with, none of my vans were "unreliable," in the respects that I was afraid that on the highway it would explode or break down. The '88 could probably in fact been classified as a lemon, but it was too late until we found out about the major electrical problem. If we had caught it early on, we probably would have gotten a replacement van. So my '88 did have it's share of problems, but once we found a credible mechanic and not the slimy dealer we were taking it to, the '88 started to act OK for a change. The '96 was just filled with annoying inconveniences but nothing mechanical EVER went wrong. From what I hear, the phantom locks/windshield wipers, the bad rotors, and the rattling were all common to the '96 vans, except for the rotors whch have always been bad. The '01 so far has been fine, and the quality actually shows in this one. I still think it's wrong that Chrysler is wrong for not recalling the part on my mini just for my own piece of mind, but OH WELL..... Anyway, maybe all of this qualifies as being "burned by Chrysler" but I'm sorry, they make some darn nice vans on the outside and inside. How they used to build them is a differnet story, and I know with Chrysler, beauty is sometimes only skin deep, but I've been loyal (basically because there didn't used to be any other REAL minivan competitors) and I'm glad that they seem to be better in quality now. I'm still waiting to see that new 2003 Sienna, though.
Also, is it me or do you think the '87-'95 'Grand' versions of the Chrysler vans have and had more leg room in the middle row. I swear, when I got the '96, it was a big difference in how the front seats really dug into the leg room in the middle row, which I remember in the '88 not being a problem. The '01 is about the same as the '96 was in leg room, too.
Also, have you had any problems with all the curves and now the power liftgate intrusion in the trunk area. I used to be able to fit two bikes in the back of the '88, but when we got the '96, I had a rude awakening when I couldn't do that anymore. This I think was partially due to all those curves in the trunk area, and the fact that the rear air compressor was moved from behind the driver (where the driver's sliding doors is now) to the trunk area, which took out some width in the trunk. But because of the more boxy trunk opening of the '88 (and your '94) it was much easier to get big stuff in. Now, not only is the '01 still really curvy in the back, but the power lift motor take up more available cargo space that I used to have even in the '96. Chrysler keeps on saying how the new vans get bigger with each redesign, but I'd like to know where they're putting the extra space other than in extra elbow room in front, which I did notice in the '96.
One last thing, what did you think of all the leather that was along the inside of your '94 T&C. When looking at pictures, it looks really luxurious, and better than the vinyl I had in the '96, and now the sued in the '01.
Sorry about all the questions, but since that was the one generation of Chrysler vans that I did not get, I'm just wondering if there were things you liked better about it when compared to your new '01. I know there are still things I want back that were on my '88, such as a full amount of gauges and less curves and intrusions in the trunk area. I guess you can't win them all though...
I'm just thinking when I look at vans again for the 2004 model year, the Toyota and Chrysler vans will be the only vans with the luxury features I'm looking for. That's great that Honda is finally offering heated leather seats, but Chrysler has been doing that since 1990 with the Town & Country and since 1998 with the heated part. When the Odyssey first came out, it's big selling point for me was the auto temp control, which is now in the Toyota and the Chryslers, thus not making it a real big possibility on my list since I want luxury more than a 6 month waiting list and a fold away seat, which is supposed to be on the 2003 Sienna anyway.
Plus, I've had such good luck with the four Toyota's I've owned that I'm not too worried about having problems in a Toyota. And by reading my previous post, you can tell that all those problems I had in the two Chryslers didn't scare me away from getting a new 2001 Chrysler. Plus, I have trust in Toyota for at least making a vehicle on par with my Chrysler. I'll just have to see what happens....
2. I can't be sure, but there probably was slightly more leg room in the middle row of the old minivans. I wish DC offered second row seats that should shift forward and backward, like the Sienna and Windstar.
3. Yes, there may be some compromises in cargo room behind the third seat between the first generation and the post-96's. I think that in terms of cubic feet the post-96s have more cargo room, but partly that's because the post-96's have a wider stance, which contributes to better stability and ride, but the aerodynamics may take away some usable cargo room. Two things I've done in the '01 to help are: 1) remove the headrests (not needed as the kids in the back are in car seats) and 2) move the seat back to the most upright position. The '94 rear bench did not have an adjustable seatback, and as I recall it was closer to vertical than the normal '01 seatback.
4. I find the leather/suede on the '01 to be luxurious. I think there is a difference in that leather was not a common option in '94, so it looked and felt like it was done by an aftermarketer. You know, it didn't exactly fit the seats or the panels, leaving a lot of extra material in wrinkles and folds which can seem more luxurious. The leather we have now definitely seems factory installed, and fits exactly.
5. Overall, except for the electronic dashboard and perhaps rear cargo room there is NOTHING I like about the '94 over the '01. It had a harsher ride, poorer handling, much more wind noise, rotten windshield wipers and sprayers, no left sliding door, no power doors, rotten rear climate control (the vents were all on the left), no wheels on the seats for removal, seats that were very difficult to remove and to lock back in place, a stupid place for the tire jack (next to the engine, so it was guaranteed to be too hot to touch), a rubber pad where the hood met the car that kept coming off, a stupid hood ornament that hurt gas mileage and added noise, impossible-to-clean white alloy wheels, a rear climate system that let the kids turn the heat on full while the front was putting out A/C, and horn buttons on the sides of the steering wheel instead of the center. Not that I have an opinion about the '94 or anything.
However, having said all that I would buy the '94 again. Amazing, huh? But at the time that was the best minivan choice out there for those who needed a larger minivan.
In my '88 Grand Voyager LE, I do remember all the rear air vents being placed below the middle row driver's side window and the back row driver's side window. The setup in the '96 made more sense, but I kinda missed how the '88 was semi "dual zone" in the respect that the '88 and your '94 had the ability for the rear passengers to choose heat or air. Now that was not nearly as advanced as what the '01 has which REALLY lets the back-seat choose what temperature they want.
I take it your '94 was a white van based on what you said about your wheels. While you didn't have them and some people may have liked them, I thought the '93-'98 GOLD Chrysler wheels were incredibly tacky and bad looking. I hated the gold wheels on my LXi. I thought it would take Chrysler an act of God to finally get rid of those dumb gold flower design wheels, which they finally did when the Limited came out in '98 as a '99.
But enough about that, I agree with you that even compared to my '96, the '01 vans are giant leap for Chrysler in terms of quality and definitely luxury.
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Drew
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Drew: looks in great shape, especially for Canada. Looks like a new housing development too. The house styles could be California.
Heh, I hate washing the wheels. The gaps are indeed extremely annoying to clean, even though they are no where as small as the T&C's.
Yeah, the entire mountain that I live on is a fairly new housing development. The oldest houses are only 10 years old. My area is about 5-7 years of age. The slopes can be pretty steep in some places. The street up to my cul-de-sac is about a 25% grade. 2WD cars with winter tires can normally only make it up a maximum of 20% grades, so you see why the AWD comes in handy. You can see a couple of other pictures in the background here (not my street or my vehicle, but the one slightly further up) if you're interested: Picture 1, Picture 2, a href="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=137587&a=11472157&p=40451600&Sequence=0">Picture 3.
Drew
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As for the DC leaking gas tank test, it is no big deal. I have been driving for 40 years (somewhere near your age I'd guess). I remember metal dashboards with big metal knobs, no seat belts or air bags. No collapsible steering wheels.
Safety is really relative. Compared to cars of the 50s and early 60s every one of today's vehicles are 100's of times safer.
Sorry dave210...I just learned how to post links here.
"Interest remains high in the Honda Odyssey minivan, still a suburban status symbol three years after it came to market. Odyssey sales are actually down slightly this year; not for lack of buyer interest, but because of a production quandary. Both the Odyssey and the Acura MDX sport utility are built at a plant in Alliston, Ontario, that is at full capacity. Honda has had to cut Odyssey production to build more MDX's.
"At the moment, the scales are tipped in favor of MDX, which has a four-month waiting list; the Odyssey wait is generally about three weeks nationwide, said a Honda spokesman, Andrew Boyd. Supplies of the Odyssey should ease up late this year, when Honda opens a factory in Alabama that will be devoted to the minivan."