Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

allargon · November 2006

According to Consumer Reports, the Saab 9-5 is more reliable than the e46 BMW's. However, the e90 3 series has way fewer black dots. The 335 is too new for anyone to draw any conclusions.

However, the 9-5 isn't considered the entry level vehicle. The Epsilon based 9-3 is. It's not considered reliable at all by CR even though its platform cousins, the Pontiac G6 and the Chevrolet Malibu Maxx are.

dhamilton · November 2006

The Saab, or any Saab for that matter, just can't match the buttoned down feel of the Audi or BMW IMO. Their are just to many cheap plasticy parts, and, well, it just isn't glued down like German car

laurasdada · November 2006

Hello, Edward:

I agree with most of your comments on G35 vs. TL. In fact, for those reasons (and a few more) the TL was the car for me. Gotta disagree with your comments (and neither of us is wrong, of course) in that I find the TL to be a very handsome, aggressive and somewhat understated design from almost any angle. The G, while not unnattracive (like the overdone, overwrought, overbaked CTS!) to me appears just a bit too tall and narrow on the exterior with a rear view only a mother could love. I'd give the TL a 9, the G a 7.

Viva la difference!

ggesq · November 2006

plekto,

There is no more 330i post MY 2006. It's now called the 335i. (with 300 hp)
I don't know what you mean about the 3 only being good in the M trim. IMHO, until the M3 gets redesigned the 335i is an awesome value compared to the M3. Insofar as maintenance is concerned BMW offers a 4yr- 50k mile maintenance free plan.

Acura has made a serious attempt in providing luxury with its TL. How didn't it feel "luxury" to you? If you mean by the ride- then sure- it's got a stiff ride, but so does most of the cars in this class. For the most part, people admire the "luxury" in the TL.

MB has some serious QC issues with its vehicles these days.

Volvo S60 - the best luxury for the money? A completely stripped 208hp S60 MSRP's at $31,580 including destination. Add in some "luxury" and your well on your way in being out of your price range.

RX-8? Isn't this a 2-door?

kdshapiro · November 2006

"RX-8? Isn't this a 2-door?"

And a smallish one at that. I think there are two more seats, but I wouldn't want to sit back there.

blueguydotcom · November 2006

The rear doors are suicide doors but it's a 4 door nonetheless. Cost-wise it's the cheapest of the bunch. If you just want a car like that - fast, decent handling - get a Scooby Legacy 2.5 or Mazdaspeed6. They're compact/midsize sedans, well under 30k and fast, good handling.

edwardsf · November 2006

I think they are both great looking cars. And yes, the TL is more understated. I am thinking of three cars myself: TL, A4 2.0T, and a Suburu Legacy GT wagon. Note that the G is not there. I don't like its interior and find it cramped (I am 6-3). I think the Legacy is the most nimble and fun to drive of the three but don't like its gas mileage. The A4, TL and 328 are really quite remarkable in that they are performance sedans with 30+ mpg on the highway. The TL is an amazing package in that it also has very user friendly tech AND reliablity.

blueguydotcom · November 2006

Stopped by a dealer and drove the G35S today. Hmmm. Interior materials are big step up. The car feels more solid, refined and really planted (if not heavy). some thoughts:

Slight hesitation on acceleration.
Engine is really quiet.
No real NVH from the redesigned 3.5 and chassis.
At speed the 5 speed auto is okay but the car feels incorrectly geared.
Auto paddle response was okay but still too slow for my tastes.
They didn't have a 6 speed manual on the lot.
Acceleration was decent but not mindblowing. The car felt a bit more muscular than my weak-kneed 2006 330i.
Steering felt heavy at all speeds - okay but a tad too muted during spirited moves.
Interior was quite cramped - what happened to the wide-open interior of the last gen? This is more cockpit-like but in an overly snug way. I'm five-seven and 145 lbs and the G35 felt way too tight.
Seats blow majorly. They're soft, poorly bolstered (even with controls used to tighten bolsters), feel flimsy and are not comfortable for even short drives.
LCD display is worthless during the day. At full brightness it was still hard to read (20/20 vision).
Soft ride and compliant on all road surfaces but tons of road roar.

Overall - I liked the look the exterior. Better interior materials. More upscale. But the car has lost its edgier character, feeling more sedate, buttoned-down and even more muted and removed than the e90.

If I could change my list from the other day the G35S with automatic would be on the side of "wouldn't consider."

Could a manual change the character that much? Maybe. I will have to try the manual version eventually but it's hard to believe that the tranny could make a car feel so wrong. Then again, an automatic e90/e46 3 series feels like absolute, unresponsive garbage to me too.

BTW, while at my BMW dealer last night I looked over the 3 series coupe with my girlfriend. We agreed, it's one boring, lame looking car. I didn't want to drive the 335i as they didn't have a manual on the lot and I would probably want to trade my woefully underpowered 330i for it immediately.

Right now if price were an issue - 30k or under:

GTI
A3
328

Under 40k:
335

cdnpinhead · November 2006

Useful information. Thanks.

The 328 is my top contender, followed by the G35 coupe (assuming my bicycle will fit through that triangular opening).

Your input helps move the G35 farther down the list. OTOH, the C230 or CTS 3.6 aren't anyone's favourite these days either. They do have RWD though, unlike the A3.

blueguydotcom · November 2006

I'm still a little dumbstruck. I fully expected the new G35 to be much better.

cdnpinhead · November 2006

Maybe you really do get what you pay for.

I drove a loaded Maxima rental during a collision repair last year. It was fine, but not what I would consider luxury (interior), let alone performance (handling). I've not driven a G yet, but extrapolating the Maxima doesn't get me very excited.

Most don't care. Some of us do. That's why I was pleased to get your impressions of the revised G.

jimmy81 · November 2006

I'm five-seven and 145 lbs and the G35 felt way too tight.

I'm a bit 'heftier' than you (6' 207). I didn't even test drive the new G since it was too tight. Couldn't envision the claustrophobia going on on a long trip. But to hear a 'smaller' guy (?) has trouble getting comfortable in that cockpit makes me wonder about the size of the engineers designing the car in the first place. Smaller Japanese homeys?

Actually the 3 series is the same way with me - kinda tight. The TL is the clear choice for not banging your knees into the door and center stack constantly.

plekto · November 2006

First off, my prices that I quoted were all from carsdirect.com and are as such, verifiable.

Secondly, It's called REBATES AND INCVENTIVES. That's how a 9-5 and a S60 can get down to such silly prices.

Thirdly, Manual transmission is a must. Almost every one of these cars go from a rocket to your uncle's highway float-o-mobile(sm) when they are hampered with the automatic. Nowhere is it more evident, though, than in the Cadillac CTS. If you can't learn stickshift, just get a used midsize luxo-barge and be happy, because nothing under $30K(with an automatic) exists that I'd consider "luxury" and "performance".

Fourth, Those ultra-small cars almost all universally fail the "luxury" definition as they are cramped inside. There's nothing "luxury" to me if I feel like a sardine while I'm in it. Compare a S40 to a S60. Who cares wwhat Volvo calls it, it's not a luxury car. Neither is the A4 or most of the rest. Sure, they're MADE by luxury brands, but as their entry-level offering, it's not enough to have the name on it. Even stuffing a bigger 6 cylinder engine won't most of the time as well.

My ideal for luxury is an old mid 90's S-class. While none of these come close to that level, to be sure, I feel that they should still exhibit some of the qualities in part to be considered "luxury".

And claustrophobic is the anthesis of luxury in my book. What ever happened to having a nice upright well-laid out interior? I'd much rather drive an old 80's BMW than most of these things. I'm 5'7" and about 160lbd. Pretty "normal", and when I turn the wheel hard(hand over hand technique)and my left elbow hits the window, it's just not right.

Oh - while we're on the S60, I said a bare-bones T5 model with the bigger engine. Under 30K and worth every penny. Why NOT get "not entry level" for the same price?

A few comments about some of the cars:

The reality is that the A4 is a maintainence nightmare. When I said they have to pull the engine halfway out to service it, I wasn't joking. That adds up to very pricey BMW-like maintainence. The Cadillac Catera also had this exact same problem. Oh - and a minor point - can someone please smack Audi upside their heads' over the joke of a cupholder?

The BMW is a pathetic little thing like ths IS250 is. Not enough power and not even close to the M3(or even the upper-end) model that made the entire line famous. And at under 30K, it's bare-bone at that. To me, it screams "Mercedes 190" to me.

The RX-8 - no bling - not luxury at all, but it is a sedan(I count 4 doors with their own hinges). I thought I'd add this since it represents the most RWD acceleration and handling that $25K(after rebates and incentves of course) can buy you.

The G35 - Yes, you too noticed how the old models are better - the new one is like they are trying to copy a 350Z. Sigh. But the older generation with the manual gearbox is a joy to drive.

The CTS with the 3.6VVT engine and stickshift is an astounding machine. A bit ugly(okay, a LOT UGLY), but with 6 speeds and 255HP, plus almost all of its torque available at 1600-2000rpm, it'll suck you back into your seat like nothing else will for the price. Driving it, it reminded me of a softer-sprung upper-end 3 series or a new IS300. Sure, it has less HP, but it hits maximum torque at half the rpms as well, so it pulls hard like a turbo-diesel.

All in all, none of them really fit the criteria perfectly. Though, the S60 is probably the closest. But it's not really a "fair" comparison, either, as it's not entry-level. Gotta love rebates

kdshapiro · November 2006

None of these cars are luxury cars. The segment is entry level luxury sport sedans. Manufacturers who make luxury automobiles, these are the bottom of the heap. Last I looked Volvo or Mazda don't make luxury vehicles.

Rebates and incentives will be gone in a few months for 2006 models. It's a pricing anomaly, much like Black Friday. Comparing a 2006 Volvo outgoing model with a new 2007 335i is ludicrous. The 335i is king of the entry level sport sedan. Fastest, most planted, best looking. To expensive? A Camry or Accord is the ticket. I would rather pay $43K for a 335 than whatever for an S60. So would a lot of people I gather.

Of course, the 335i may not be right for you for a variety of reasons, none of which has to do with it's performance, unless you're afraid of it's 4.7 seconds to 60.

One more thing - the TMV price according to Edmunds is on par for the S60 vs 335i. Comparing the consumer ratings however, one is 9.5 the other is 7.7. Can you guess which rating belongs to which car?

I tried to do my car internet purchase. I tried carsdirect.com, I ended up by not using them. I don't consider them to be the authority on pricing.

plekto · November 2006

Yet their prices are legitimate enough. Actually, you can haggle quite a better deal on many of the cars if you want - I just use them as an example of "average" pricing for those who don't want to haggle or drive around.

Of course the BMW is going to be more favorable, but you can't get(still new) 2006 BMW for $26,400. The S60 T5, which isn't even their lowest end model is the same price as a Camry V6. I don't see Mercedes or BMW or Lexus offering those sorts of deals.

And it's NOT "black Friday" - it's a fact of life for GM, Ford, Chrysler, Mistubishi, Mazda, and many others. For 3-4 months out of the year, you can get silly low prices on their leftover stock. That's not one weekend. It's roughly a third of the entire year, and when most sane people buy their new cars.(leases are totally seperate).

As for the S60, it's certainly more luxurious than the others. The original poster wanted a luxury sedan that was sporty and luxurious for under 30K. This was different than the topic of this group, but we replied anyways. It's a higher sert of criteria that he was looking for. And I suspect that the S60 will be a better solution than an A4, as he seemed to want something a bit larger than a crackerbox if he could manage it.

kdshapiro · November 2006

"The S60 T5, which isn't even their lowest end model is the same price as a Camry V6"

Got what you're saying, but would still buy the Camry over the Volvo in a heartbeat.

"I don't see Mercedes or BMW or Lexus offering those sorts of deals."

You never will.

"original poster wanted a luxury sedan that was sporty and luxurious for under 30K."

The Volvo isn't a luxury sedan, like the Accord V6 fully decked out isn't a luxury sedan. If the op was talking 2007 models only it's a totally different picture.

edwardsf · November 2006

Since you are a short guy, let me add a little bit of normal to large guy perspective. I am 6-2, with a long torso, meaning that most cars have poor headroom or vision for me. The S60 has has a raked roof and I can't see well out of it. The Lexus, 3 series, and the G35 all have similar headroom or vision problems. The A4, C230 and TL all have more headroom and better vision for me.

I have driven an S60 - extensively - from SF to Tahoe and back under all conditions. It is a good car. It has nice seats and even a usable back seat. But it does not perform like the A4 2.0T or the 3 series or the G or .... It does not handle as well as any of those cars and it is not nearly as nimble and it does not have as much midrange usuable torque passing someone going up Highway 50 at 5000 ft as even my 97 Saab 900SE.

But you can go on about E series and 7 series in the ENTRY performance level thread. And you can go on about poor reliability of A4s (directly contradicted by Consumer Repots) and something you made up about engines bays (the S4 has a 4.2 in it so your claims are really bogus). But the reality is that you probably don't really care about helping out a buyer or fairly discussing ENTRY level luxury perfomance cars. You seem to simply want crow about how great your S60 is. Again, all the cars discussed in this car are good cars. Maybe if you tried driving more than one of them, you might see the light. That is, if you can see over the dash.

plekto · November 2006

Try one with a manual transmission. Then a whole new world opens up

blueguydotcom · November 2006

Is this in response to my post about the G35? I will eventually try a manual version but given how much I disliked the seating space and position, the manual may end up feeling as awful as the one in the A3/A4/GTI/GLI.

plekto · November 2006

I mean a 2006 G35 with manual. The new one also is just.. it hits too many of my "funky"(in a bad way) buttons. Kind of like when I first test drove the (new)VW Beetle. Something felt "off" about it and the ergonomics weren't up to par for the money.

blueguydotcom · November 2006

I drove the 06 manual G35. While i prefer the ergonomics of that car, the 07 is a better car in most other ways - better materials, smoother engine, better chassis, way less nvh, attractive exterior. Unfortunately, like the e9x BMWS, the 07 G35 feels a little too buttoned-down and less enthusiastic.

qbrozen · November 2006

it does not have as much midrange usuable torque

that just tells me you weren't driving a T5.

qbrozen · November 2006

Last I looked Volvo or Mazda don't make luxury vehicles

i agree with you about mazda ... but volvo?? If volvo doesn't make luxury cars, then neither does acura, infiniti, or saab. I'd easily put all of those in the same class as volvo. And I'm not saying your wrong. Maybe none of these are luxury cars ... but then we'd have to change the subject of this discussion.

kdshapiro · November 2006

"i agree with you about mazda ... but volvo??"

Maybe you are right. But, I don't think of Volvo as a luxury car maker, in not the same way as Infiniti or Acura. Infiniti has a high end model, Acura has a high-end model. What is Volvos' high-end model, the S60? It's the same MSRP as a 3 series. And Saab? Even though Saab is on the list as an entry level vehicle, I don't think of them as being manufacturers of luxury automobiles.

kyfdx · November 2006

I still see Volvo as a luxury nameplate.. The S80 stickers up into the high '40s and the XC90 goes as high as $57K.. They are definitely in the same league as Acura.. Some nice cars and some warmed over Hondas (Fords).

plekto · November 2006

Volvo IS like Lexus and Infinity. They just dropped their budget-line back in the early 90s and never looked back.(ie - the 700 and 240 series).

The 850 Turbo was one of the top three luxury sports sedans of the 90s - easily competing with the 3 series of the time.

The S60 has more rounded sheetmetal, but it's still the same 850 at heart. A bit softer and more luxurious, but still very much a step up from a Camry, Honda, Buick, Misubishi, and so on. Plus, it handles superbly. Very "European" feel when you're driving it. Oh, and it's safe as a tank. The last of the Swedish designs as well. In a few years, Ford will have gutted it and it'll be a re-badged Mercury. But for now, it's a good alternative to the overpriced stuff from Japan.

kdshapiro · November 2006

"the XC90 goes as high as $57K"

The highest MSRP vehicle in Volvo's space is not even sedan? This is a differentiator between Volvo and the others and the reason I don't view Volvo as a serious luxury manufacturer. In other words, at least in my view, you are one or you are not. Leather seats do not a luxury manufacturer make.

kdshapiro · November 2006

They are nose heavy and handle as such. No balance to them.

plekto · November 2006

Volvo's early history is pretty easy to research, so I'll leave that out. What made them famous, though, was how they copied Mercedes' technology during the 60s, 70s and 80s - and reproduced it for 2/3 of the cost.

Mercedes came up with nearly every safety invention that Volvo got its reputation for first - just who could afford a $12-15K sedan in 1967? Volvo cost a lot less and offered the same safety(and preformance) This is why I have always considered them to be a luxury maker at heart. They are(or were) the European version of Buick to Mercedes' Cadillac.

Other than the 240 and 700 series(plus some ill-fated budget cars in Europe like the 300 series), their cars have always been aimed at providing a working-man's luxury alternative, exactly like Lexus started off as. Why buy Mercedes and BMW when Lexus offered 75-80% for half the price?

See, I see four segements in the market.
1:True budget. Aveo and Yaris and the like - you get a box that gets you areound.
2:Average car - about 60-70% of the market.
3:Budget luxury. Lexus, Infinity, Volvo, and so on.
4:True luxury. Mercedes, Bentley, Austin Martin, BMW, Lotus, Saleen, and all the rest. Stuff us working class people usually can't afford.

Now, there is some overlap between #3 and #4, like the Mercedes C class and the top-end Lexus models, but when someone posts here about wanting "luxury" and sets a low price-limit, it's clear that they are like 99% of us. They are really talking about category #3. And Volvo and Saab belong there.(the 9-2 aside - nobody wants a Saabaru)

ggesq · November 2006

"Plus, it handles superbly"

Compared to what? The Camry, Honda (Accord) Buick, Mitsubishi and so on? If so- that's about it. It doesn't compare to some of the other vehicles in this segment. It doesn't even get an invitation to a performance shoot out.

"But for now, it's a good alternative to the overpriced stuff from Japan."

I don't share your opinion about the [non-permissible content removed] models currently being overpriced. There are huge discounts on Infiniti and Acura products and can pick up 06 models of the G and TL in the very low 30's.

As long as your happy with your purchase that's all that matters because it is YOUR money and you should spend it on what makes sense for you. BUT, IMHO it's a little humorous when you make generalizations about the performance aspect of the Volvo as well as the Japanese counterparts being overpriced.

fedlawman · November 2006

I agree that Volvo is not a "luxury brand" compared to Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, etc. in that their top level car, the S80, doesn't compare to the Lexus LS, M-B S-Class,or BMW 7-series. No, I'd put the S80 closer to the Audi A6, and Acura RL kind of cars.

I have to disagree that Volvo is not a "luxury brand" in the general sense. I'd say they are a "near-luxury" brand, most similar to Saab and Acura in market segment.

Volvo's are well built, safe, and luxurious cars, but they don't come close to mid and top level Lexus or Mercedes cars.

Actually, I think Volvo's are basically European Buicks. They are soft, comfortable touring cars with high-quality materials and luxury touches, but they are FWD and don't have any sporting aspirations at all (except for the "R" cars). Driving experience wise, I'd say they are very similar to the Honda Accord (crisp but not sporty handling with light overboosted steering and little road feel).

I love my Volvo for what it is - a smooth, quiet, comfortable touring car with European flair and luxury appointments. But I don't pretend for a second that it is "fun to drive" or "sporty." It's not - it's a really nice Buick.

kdshapiro · November 2006

You posted very eloquently what I was attempting to say.

fasterthanyou · November 2006

I agree that Volvo is not a true luxury car but neither is Lexus. Use the same measure for all the cars.

kdshapiro · November 2006

Actually not. Lexus is coming out with some very high-end models.

fedlawman · November 2006

I actually prefer the Lexus LS to the Mercedes S-Class. I know it's personal, but I find the Lexus appointments to be softer and warmer, which is nice. The Mercedes is fantastic, but tends to be more on the hard, Teutonic side of luxury.

Time has also shown that the LS is a very, very stout car. Look at how many early 90's LS400's you still see on the road. Most of them look as good as the day they drove off the showroom floor.

I know if I was looking for a luxurious used car, I'd buy a 95 LS400 before a 95 S420 in a heartbeat.

dandrews1 · November 2006

WARNING - off-topic tangent in response to another post.

"4:True luxury. Mercedes, Bentley, Austin Martin, BMW, Lotus, Saleen, and all the rest. Stuff us working class people usually can't afford."

Bentley and Aston don't belong next to a BMW, Mercedes, or Saleen. Lotus doesn't even belong in the luxury group at all. (they are now a pure sports car - very little going on in the way of luxury - just go to youtube and do a search for "Top Gear Lotus" to see what I am talking about)

I would add a 5th segment in there - Ultra Luxury
Bentley
ASTON Martin
Ferrari (only the 612 Scaglietti, the rest are pure sports)
Bugatti
Rolls Royce

etc

Having driven the top three in the list above (I haven't driven a 612, but I have sat in one), I can tell you from experience.

Go sit in an Aston Martin DB9 or Bentley Continental GT (both cars I have driven on a track), then come back and tell me that BMW, Mercedes, or even Lotus can touch it for luxury.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but respect for german engineering, but they have a skewed idea of luxury. IMHO, they seem to think shiny and modern is luxury. IMHO, Luxury is about comfort, technology, and environment all coming together in harmony.

Few car manufacturers outside of Bentley or Aston get it.

circlew · November 2006

I know this is off topic but the ultra luxury you have experienced should be the benchmark for the entry segment.

Considering this, MB, BMW, Acura, Lexus, Infinity, Caddy, Lincoln all are basically Entry Level except for the top end models of MB, BMW and new to the segment Lexus, IMHO. All the rest do not compete for the Ultra segment, really.

But the entry level is where there is fierce competition and it's fun to see the evolution.

Regards,
OW

ilijabmw · November 2006

in terms of looks, I think the G35 looks the best in the entry-level luxury performance category. however, I'm not so sure as to how revolutionary this sedan actually is... a lot of parts I see I can find on the previous generation of the G35.

http://www.carphotosite.com/image.php?image=modelpages/Infiniti/2007.Infiniti.G3- 5.Sedan/1024/2007.Infiniti.G35.Sedan_015.jpg

and that navigation screen has got to be the best thing I've ever seen.

rockylee · November 2006

I'm with you pal and view Volvo as a entry-lux brand for the most part. The S80, is about the only vehicle that can get into the $60K range as I've priced a few of them up with the options I'd want. I guess we need a sound criteria/guidline to go by of what is, and what isn't a luxury car.

Rocky

kdshapiro · November 2006

The guildeline seems to be the manufacturer builds luxury cars, ultra-luxury and exotics are excluded. The high-end sedan S80 does not compete with high-end offerings from BMW, Mercedes and Lexus although, you could argue it competes with the RL and the M45. Having said that you can compare the options of the S80 with the RL and M45. For 300 hp it's a lot more expensive than then 335, which is not a luxury vehicle. If the S80 is included in the group, it is the most expensive vehicle here and the top of the line for Volvo, while these other cars are the bottom of the line for the other manufacturers.

I don't think anyone will seriously compare the S80 against the 550, at least in terms of performance. Maybe the S80 compares against the new 2008 600hp CTSV?

kdshapiro · November 2006

"Volvos and Saabs used to famous for being enviormentally friendly companies. Such a green reputation has gone down the toilet with V8 Volvo and Saab SUVs."

Being environmentally friendly involves both manufacturing process and type of vehicle. BMW for one, is involved with both.

dewey · November 2006

Sorry KDShaprio,

I deleted that post.

My initial point was that Volvo and Saab have both lost their reputations as environmentally friendly companies to Honda and Toyota.

Volvo and Saab have lost their reputations of producing the safest premium priced cars to Audi.

And in terms of performance/handling as far as I can recall both these Swedish marques never stood out as the best.

If Volvo and Saab want to stand out in the marketplace they at least have to be the best in something.

I still can recall my fond memories of driving a 82 Volvo GLT sedan. It also most likely saved the life of my parents and myself when we were in a nasty highway accident almost a quarter of a century ago.

plekto · November 2006

I remember a few rides in a friend's Volvo 240 Turbo and it was plenty fast.

Look - the S60 isn't a top-end puxury car, but we are talking entry-level here. Compared to anything else under $30K, it offers a good, well-balanced package. Yes, compared to a Buick, it's "sporty" - but then again, at $25-6K(depending on the engine choice)for a 2006, it comes in way WAY under the price of a C class or 3 series or anything Lexus makes.

fedlawman · November 2006

"If Volvo and Saab want to stand out in the marketplace they at least have to be the best in something."

Saab's are "born from jets." That's gotta count for something...

"Compared to anything else under $30K, it offers a good, well-balanced package."

MSRP on a Volvo S60 is over $30,000. MSRP on a Honda Accord V6 is $25,000. The Volvo has a 40 HP deficit, requires premium fuel, has a less sophisticated suspension (McPherson struts), 16" wheels (vs Accord 17's), and lacks Stability Control (optional on Volvo, standard on Accord). The Honda also has the advantage of better predicted reliability and better resale.

What exactly does the Volvo S60 offer that makes it more attractive than the Accord?

Edit: Yes, I know about incentives on 2006 Volvo models. S60 invoice is $28,800 minus $5000 dealer cash equals $23,800. 2006 Accord LX-V6 invoice is $22,600 minus $750 dealer cash equals $21,850 - still $2000 cheaper than the Volvo.

circlew · November 2006

Volvo does not concentrate on the "Sport" nature in its cars save the turbos. Most of the models are underpowered.

But for safety, they are Number 1. That's has been their focus. As competition rises in the Safety field, Volvo looses some of their market edge and where performance sedans are concerned, the brand does not breed the emotion and excitement in it's offerings, IMO.

Saab NEVER appealed to me so I would not even have an opinion.

Regards,
OW

rockylee · November 2006

Well I look at the new S80, this way. It does compete with not only the M45, RL, but it also competes with the Cadillac STS, Audi 6/8, and maybe a Lexus LS ? The S80, definitely is a luxury car IMHO.

Rocky

louiswei · November 2006

Compared to anything else under $30K, it offers a good, well-balanced package.

Exactly...but why are you comparing it to anything UNDER $30K? How many of the cars listed above come under $30K?

Personally I'd put the S60 in the same category as the Saab 9-3 and VW Passat. These cars are not truly entry-lux but a bit above the mid-size sedan class. They are truly in a class of their own.

louiswei · November 2006

I can see that the new S80 compares to the M, RL, GS or maybe even the 5er and E-class. But Audi A8 and LS? You've gotta be kidding me...

Rocky, have you seen the new A8 and LS? If you haven't please go take a look and come back and tell us that the S80 is in the same class.

flash11 · November 2006

Hi Plekto.
Just went shopping this weekend. Went to a car mall (12 manufacturers side by side dealerships) I test drove every car on the list you said were the best entry level lux-perform. sedans for the money under $30K. Was not totally impressed with any model of BMW and Mercedes. I found they were extremely overpriced for what you got inside and out and I don't suggest to anyone on this forum to consider those makes unless you want to pay $5K to $10K more just to own the name. BMW and Mercedes ride was far less luxurious than I expected for the quality of car I was expecting to get at $30K (328xi, C230). You may be suprised at what I found...
The top 5 best bang for your buck Lux-Perform sedans under $30K range of cars when comparing 4 major factors equally-Perfamance-ie.acceleration, speed, suspension, braking, solidness at high speeds.
Luxury-was the interior comfortable,noisy?,pleasing to the eye,ergonomically designed, did it feel good.
Options given at the price(no one gets a stipper sorry !)
Price-the lower the price the better without sacrificing quality and included the salesmans attitude of willingness to deal and give good service after purchase.
Here is what I found:
#1 best choice- Lincoln MKZ-why, price was at $29K with several options thrown in, 3.5L V6 with 263 hp, beautiful car inside and out,utter ecstasy for the price, found the salesman willing to throw in extras and bargain,with speed and luxury that beats any entry level BMW or Mercedes in its price range. Sorry BMW and Mercedes !

#2 best choice-2007 Ford Fusion-their top midsized sedan was surprisingly luxurious,fully loaded with beautiful leather (liked the stitching) and had every option imaginable, and has a 240 hp engine for the price $27K. Speed, acceleration and handling were very nice. The salesman was willing to go lower in price and bargained for service 6 year extended bumper to bumper warantee. My only complaint was that I did not like the way the grille looked.
#3-Volvo S60 R-test drove a 2 year old-fully loaded-with orange colored luxurious leather-not many options inside but it handled nicely at higher speeds, the salesman was willing to bargain and my impression is Volvo is a good buy for the price-$29K bargaining price on a 2 y.o.

#4-Infinity G35-1 y.o. with few options, beautiful car but found out people are rushing to trade in their G35's for other cars-so is this a car that looks good but does not meet up to the drivers expectations after several months of use ?? Found it hard to bargain the price down without sacrificing options $29K.

#5-2007 Sebring Limited 3.5L-$29K fully loaded every option available, this car has 235hp,Westgate Chrysler in Indianapolis just got its first one this weekend, handled very well for the price, sporty and luxurious leather interior and nice touch screen navigation/satelite radio entertainment center. Really liked this car.

qbrozen · November 2006

The guildeline seems to be the manufacturer builds luxury cars, ultra-luxury and exotics are excluded. The high-end sedan S80 does not compete with high-end offerings from BMW, Mercedes and Lexus although, you could argue it competes with the RL and the M45. Having said that you can compare the options of the S80 with the RL and M45. For 300 hp it's a lot more expensive than then 335, which is not a luxury vehicle. If the S80 is included in the group, it is the most expensive vehicle here and the top of the line for Volvo, while these other cars are the bottom of the line for the other manufacturers.

I don't think anyone will seriously compare the S80 against the 550, at least in terms of performance. Maybe the S80 compares against the new 2008 600hp CTSV?

I'm not sure I'm totally clear on this.

Are you comparing the S80 to the 550 just because it has a V8? The 550 is FAR more expensive. Pricewise, the S80 compares closely to the RL.

And, just as you say the S80 is the highest in the volvo lineup, so is the RL for Acura and M45 for Infiniti. So, again, if those manufacturers are in the entry-luxo class, than so must volvo be included. If we exclude one, then we must exclude all.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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