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Comments
Rocky
Rocky
a 335D sounds very interesting. Hmmmmm :surprise: You say it's going to be faster yet. :surprise: Holy Smokes ! I wonder how much more the diesel is going to cost ?
It will be worth looking at especially if it get 35+ MPG and its faster yet. :surprise:
Rocky
Not good news. BMW diesels won't be coming here in the near future.
From Reuters, Nov. 22
While Volkswagen and Mercedes already sell diesels in the U.S. market, BMW has no plans to do so any time soon and declines to use the BLUETEC name, currently being used to help sell Mercedes-Benz E 320s that run on ultra low sulphur diesel in the U.S.
The world's biggest premium carmaker [BMW], a fierce rival of DaimlerChrysler's luxury Mercedes brand, first wants to develop a urea-based technology to reduce nitrogen oxides before considering a sustained entry into the U.S. diesel market.
I just knew BMW wasn't going to to participate here and use a Mercedes thought up name on one of their cars! Hell to the no!
M
Compare to the benchmark (335i)... Yes.
Rocky
What are the cars in this class? Please refer to the list on top of the board (Except the Saab 9-3 IMO. I would put the S60R in that place if one must).
Well if the CTS-V isn't a entry-level/luxury sedan then the 335i isn't either. The entry-level luxury car should be the BMW 328. I also want to know how you became the judge of the forum of what is and what isn't a entry-lux car ? :surprise:
Rocky
My opintion:
CTS-V NO
335i YES
Yes. That's the last generation's numbers. The new mark is sub 5 seconds.
I think it boils down to this....You guys are anti-gm and just because GM, makes a faster better performing car than BMW's 335i, y'all will say it doesn't compete. The funny thing is the CTS-V is the same size as the G35 and Acura TL, both of which you guys say competes with the 335i. :confuse:
Leave your bias at home and recognize BMW, gets its butt handed to it on a Wreath and Crest platter. :mad:
Rocky
Rocky
Why should size matter? The CTS is the smallest Caddy available, therefore its their entry-level car.
If we wanted to get real strict, then we'd exclude the S60 we've been talking about because the S40 is slotted beneath it. Likewise, the TL is excluded because the TSX exists. So where is the line?
Is it size? Is it price? Is it where it falls in the manufacturers lineup?
There are more cars here besides the 335i, folks. Not everything needs to be measured against that car. Some folks don't want to spend $40k on a car that size. End of story.
If I were to decide this talk includes the entry-level car from each luxo manufacturer, then, yes, the CTS is included. However, this also means the TL and S60 are excluded. If we decide all engine options for each car are included, then, yes, the 335i is allowed, as well as the CTS-V.
HOWEVER, if we decide on a price cap, that could be a whole different story. It would include multiple entries from the same manufacturer, while excluding some from others. It kind of sounds like that's what some folks are shooting for here.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
So now your bringing in prices to justify the 335i. My god talk about being all over the place. Who in the heck is going to buy a $39K 335i with vinyl interior ? $44-45K is what the average 335i buyer will spend. Dude seriously you are the one who doesn't make sense !!!! I can admit when I'm wrong. Some of you have to "spin" other peoples responses to justify to yourself worth ?
I'm not saying the CTS-V is a better all around car to own or drive but the test track results speak for themselves.
Rocky
That was the best post on this forum to date IMHO.
Thank-you
Rocky
Entry Lux Performance Sedans:
Acura - TL
Audi - A4 2.0T/3.0
BMW - 3 Series (335i/328i)
Caddy - CTS 2.8/3.6
Infiniti - G35
Lexus - IS350/250
MB - C280/350
Factory-tuned Special Model based on the Entry Lux Sedan:
Acura - No entry (I don't think TL-S should be in this category)
Audi - RS/S4
BMW - M3
Caddy - CTS-V
Infiniti - No entry
Lexus - Currently no entry (IS500 in the future)
MB - C63 AMG
Midesize Luxury Performance Sedans:
Acura - RL
Audi - A6
BMW - 5 Series
Caddy - STS
Infiniti - M35/45
Lexus - GS350/430/450h
MB - E-class
Factory-tuned Special Model based on the Midsize Lux Sedan:
Acura - No entry
Audi - S6 (is there a RS6?)
BMW - M5
Caddy - STS-V
Infiniti - No entry
Lexus - No entry
MB - E63 AMG
Luxury Sedans:
Acura - No Entry
Audi - A8
BMW - 7 Series
Caddy - No Entry
Infiniti - Q45
Lexus - LS460/600h
MB - S-class
Factory-tuned Special Model based on the Luxury Sedan:
Acura - No entry
Audi - S8
BMW - Currently no entry. However, heard that M7 is around the corner.
Caddy - No entry
Infiniti - No entry
Lexus - No entry
MB - S63 AMG
Now can we move on?
An M3 is still a 3-series, is it not? Yet the top of the discussion says "3-series" and not "3-series minus the M3."
And, yes, I know there is no M3 RIGHT NOW. But there was and will be.
As for your list, where is the TSX I pointed out in my post? Yeah, its a 4-cylinder, I know. But the mags and many owners seem to think its a sports sedan, regardless.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
It's not all about size, not all about price and not all about where it falls in the manufacturers' lineup. It's about where does it fall in the market.
which is why I question where the line is. Why the 335, but not M3? Why the CTS but not CTSV?
If we exclude the top models like the V and M, then why are we allowing any kind of engine options? Should we only be discussing the TRUE ENTRY LEVEL vehicle in this discussion that we have named "ENTRY-LEVEL" vehicles??
It would make for a boring discussion however. How enthusiastic can we be about the 328 vs IS250 vs TSX? Not very.
So what I'm asking for is a clear defining line. Louis MIGHT be onto something ... but its not quite there yet.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Y'all can spin it anyway y'all want to feel good. If GM, loses a comparo I give the other company a congrats. Take it like a man, and move on...good grief. :confuse:
Rocky
If I wanted something based STRICTLY on performance, I'd get a crotch rocket and put everything on this board to shame!
As shoppers, especially shoppers in this category, we are looking for far more than performance numbers dictate.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I don't know what I am onto but I think this board is dedicated to the regular models of the entry lux performance sedans. Whether it's 328i/335i or IS250/350. I think the M, -V and AMG are all special factory tuned models which should be in a class of their own.
Like I said before, the market decides where does a car fall. For example, how many of y'all actually considered the M3, CTS-V and C55 AMG while shopping for your entry lux performance sedan. I know I didn't, my final 2 are IS350 and 330i. The M3 didn't even come across my mind. However, that's just me.
blueguy, did you consider the M3 before buying your 330i?
Since the M3 is about the same size as the Civic Coupe why don't we compare these 2 a well?
M6 is about the same size as the Accord coupe and Solara we should put these 3 in the same class too right?
:confuse:
What we are still missing from the definition, however, is why one midsize example is allowed in (the TL), but others are not (5-series, E-class, etc).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
You did see those Nurburing numbers I showed you yesterday right? CTS-V is 8 seconds slower than the last gen M3. I think it's clear who handed who's [non-permissible content removed].
And this is still the issue I posted above. We are allowing SOME mid-sizers but not others. It makes no sense.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I don't think Acura designed the TL to compete against the 5er and E-class. TL's main targets are 3er, IS and G and that's why even though it has the size advantage it is still considered as a entry lux performance sedan.
Acura uses the 2-entry-model-sedan lineup with the TSX and TL just like the ES/IS combo for Lexus. However, that doesn't mean that TSX is the entry lux and TL is the midsize lux. It's just the strategy Acura decided to pursuit.
Nice spin !!!!
Rocky
I am just following your line of thought since you are comparing size to size.
Rocky
Rocky
Manual transmission as standard equipment
Suspension tuning with an emphasis on handling over ride quality
Driver-oriented interior
Smaller size - ideally a compact but that's getting tougher to find.
RWD preferable, with FWD as passable and AWD if one really must.
I would add:
Price range between 30-45k
No "supped up" cars like the M, AMG, V, S (4,6 or 8) or R
220hp +
Luxury nameplate
Size- should fit 4 adults comfortably (and yes you can fit 2 adults in the backseat of a 3er or IS)
Feel free to add....
At a starting price of over 52k, the CTS-V no more competes against the 38k 335i than the M3 competes against the MKZ.
Different classes of cars.
blueguy, did you consider the M3 before buying your 330i?</I.
No, they only had the coupe. Had the e46 M3 sedan been available, I would have bought one and that would have been that. I wanted something in the size and price range of a 3 series (sub 45k with both cars in the past 4 years).
So price is the determining factor of what stays and what goes ?
Well a $23K Acura TSX vs a $39K BMW 335i is then 2 different classes of cars also. So where do we draw the line ? How many $39K BMW 335i's are their going to be made ?
Rocky
As for the $39K 335i...It doesn't matter how many of them are going to be made the bottom line is that if one wants a stripped down based 335i (still comes with 300hp, 300 lb-ft twin turbo inline 6), he/she can have it. On the other hand, Rocky, can you find me a CTS-V for $40K? I really don't want the leather seat, sun roof, upgraded radio, navigation and I'll take the 17" wheel. Can you get me a stripped down CTS-V?
You who say the Lincoln MKZ does not belong in this forum are extremely narrow minded and leads me to believe that your opinions are flawed and biased. Go try a MKZ, compare it. I test drove it again today, the car is absolutely luxurious, with speed and style. That 263hp engine gives a lot of power and acceleration. It beats out the BMW and MB hands down when considering Luxury,Performance,options,price equally. It may not have a stick yet, may never will, but should not be excluded here based on that. There was no rule set about the stick just someones opinion, and this car should get mentioned here. I strongly believe the list in this forum should include the MKZ, along side any BMW 328xi, MB C230, Caddie CTS and Volvo S60R. You are doing your readers an injustice by keeping other manufacturers reputations hyped while Ford has outdone itself and deserves a place here. Go drive a MKZ, then again stubborn people will never admit they are wrong even when faced with the facts. The MKZ is a great entry level LUXURY performance sedan ! price $35K MSRP fully loaded with all options.
Rocky
You nailed it right on the point. With the MKZ Ford has outdone itself but still light years behind the pack. BTW, it's really not that hard for Ford to outdo itself. Especially for the Lincoln brand.
Let me ask you this, so you have driven the MKZ, fine. What other cars have you driven before? Do you have any experience to get behind the wheel of a 330i/335i? an IS350? a G35 (last gen or current gen)? or a TL? If you have do you mind to share the experience with us so we'll have an idea on how competitive the MKZ is comparing to the other usual suspects.
Also, what cars have you driven before in your life? Just out of curiosity.
So obviously no matter how I put it you and a few others posters will not except the CTS-V as NOT an opponent. :confuse:
335i sedan
Premium pack
Sirius
Navi
Sport pack
46k msrp
CTS-V with gas guzzler and sport shocks = 54k