Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

1130131133135136435

Comments

  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    I thought the last gen G was more feminine than the new one.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Agree....I've seen a car mag (autoweek?) test the S60R's 0-60 time in 5.4 seconds. Is that still slow ? :surprise:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    You forgot the 1991 GMC syclone 0-60 in 4.6 and the 1992-93 GMC Typhoon 0-60 in 5.3 straight from the factory. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    circlew,

    a 335D sounds very interesting. Hmmmmm :surprise: You say it's going to be faster yet. :surprise: Holy Smokes ! I wonder how much more the diesel is going to cost ?

    It will be worth looking at especially if it get 35+ MPG and its faster yet. :surprise:

    Rocky
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Does anyone have further details?

    Not good news. BMW diesels won't be coming here in the near future.

    From Reuters, Nov. 22

    While Volkswagen and Mercedes already sell diesels in the U.S. market, BMW has no plans to do so any time soon and declines to use the BLUETEC name, currently being used to help sell Mercedes-Benz E 320s that run on ultra low sulphur diesel in the U.S.

    The world's biggest premium carmaker [BMW], a fierce rival of DaimlerChrysler's luxury Mercedes brand, first wants to develop a urea-based technology to reduce nitrogen oxides before considering a sustained entry into the U.S. diesel market.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    When I first heard about this I thought to myself BMW won't go for this. They aren't going to work with Mercedes, VW and Audi on anything if they can help it. Cost is the only reason they took at seat at the hybrid table with them. That and their general don't care attitude about hybrids so they figure they'll let the others do most of the work and if it doesn't work about the loss will be minimal.

    I just knew BMW wasn't going to to participate here and use a Mercedes thought up name on one of their cars! Hell to the no!

    M
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    That's a loss for us for sure.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    the S60R's 0-60 time in 5.4 seconds. Is that still slow ?

    Compare to the benchmark (335i)... Yes.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    The Benchmark is 4.6 seconds set by the Cadillac CTS-V. I could take a nap waiting for 60 mph to hit in the 335i :P

    Rocky
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Rocky, for the last f****** time, CTS-V is NOT an entry-level lux performance sedan. Just like the M3 and C-class AMG are not as well. When the Lexus IS500 comes out (if it does) it also would NOT be consider as one.

    What are the cars in this class? Please refer to the list on top of the board (Except the Saab 9-3 IMO. I would put the S60R in that place if one must).
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    louiswei,

    Well if the CTS-V isn't a entry-level/luxury sedan then the 335i isn't either. The entry-level luxury car should be the BMW 328. ;) I also want to know how you became the judge of the forum of what is and what isn't a entry-lux car ? :surprise:

    Rocky
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    How many of y'all think that CTS-V is an entry lux performance sedan and how many of y'all think that the 335i is one?

    My opintion:
    CTS-V NO
    335i YES
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    test the S60R's 0-60 time in 5.4 seconds. Is that still slow ?

    Yes. That's the last generation's numbers. The new mark is sub 5 seconds. :D
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Agreed. CTS-V is positioned against the M5 not 3 series which is the benchmark for the class.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    The STS-V is positioned against the M5, The CTS-V is closer in size to the M3/335i

    I think it boils down to this....You guys are anti-gm and just because GM, makes a faster better performing car than BMW's 335i, y'all will say it doesn't compete. The funny thing is the CTS-V is the same size as the G35 and Acura TL, both of which you guys say competes with the 335i. :confuse:

    Leave your bias at home and recognize BMW, gets its butt handed to it on a Wreath and Crest platter. :mad:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well lets see what the AWD 335xi runs 0-60 ;)

    Rocky
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    could get a base 335 for 39k and change. You can't get a base CTSv for less than 50. Just going off sticker. RLee, your all over the place, and not making sense as usual. Keep up the good work.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    that's tough ... but my answer would be the same for both, regardless of what that answer is.

    Why should size matter? The CTS is the smallest Caddy available, therefore its their entry-level car.

    If we wanted to get real strict, then we'd exclude the S60 we've been talking about because the S40 is slotted beneath it. Likewise, the TL is excluded because the TSX exists. So where is the line?

    Is it size? Is it price? Is it where it falls in the manufacturers lineup?

    There are more cars here besides the 335i, folks. Not everything needs to be measured against that car. Some folks don't want to spend $40k on a car that size. End of story.

    If I were to decide this talk includes the entry-level car from each luxo manufacturer, then, yes, the CTS is included. However, this also means the TL and S60 are excluded. If we decide all engine options for each car are included, then, yes, the 335i is allowed, as well as the CTS-V.

    HOWEVER, if we decide on a price cap, that could be a whole different story. It would include multiple entries from the same manufacturer, while excluding some from others. It kind of sounds like that's what some folks are shooting for here.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Dan,

    So now your bringing in prices to justify the 335i. My god talk about being all over the place. Who in the heck is going to buy a $39K 335i with vinyl interior ? $44-45K is what the average 335i buyer will spend. Dude seriously you are the one who doesn't make sense !!!! I can admit when I'm wrong. Some of you have to "spin" other peoples responses to justify to yourself worth ?

    I'm not saying the CTS-V is a better all around car to own or drive but the test track results speak for themselves.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    gbrozen,

    That was the best post on this forum to date IMHO.

    Thank-you ;)

    Rocky
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Rocky, go home do some homework and get your fact straight before coming here and comparing apples to oranges.

    Entry Lux Performance Sedans:

    Acura - TL
    Audi - A4 2.0T/3.0
    BMW - 3 Series (335i/328i)
    Caddy - CTS 2.8/3.6
    Infiniti - G35
    Lexus - IS350/250
    MB - C280/350

    Factory-tuned Special Model based on the Entry Lux Sedan:

    Acura - No entry (I don't think TL-S should be in this category)
    Audi - RS/S4
    BMW - M3
    Caddy - CTS-V
    Infiniti - No entry
    Lexus - Currently no entry (IS500 in the future)
    MB - C63 AMG

    Midesize Luxury Performance Sedans:

    Acura - RL
    Audi - A6
    BMW - 5 Series
    Caddy - STS
    Infiniti - M35/45
    Lexus - GS350/430/450h
    MB - E-class

    Factory-tuned Special Model based on the Midsize Lux Sedan:

    Acura - No entry
    Audi - S6 (is there a RS6?)
    BMW - M5
    Caddy - STS-V
    Infiniti - No entry
    Lexus - No entry
    MB - E63 AMG

    Luxury Sedans:

    Acura - No Entry
    Audi - A8
    BMW - 7 Series
    Caddy - No Entry
    Infiniti - Q45
    Lexus - LS460/600h
    MB - S-class

    Factory-tuned Special Model based on the Luxury Sedan:

    Acura - No entry
    Audi - S8
    BMW - Currently no entry. However, heard that M7 is around the corner.
    Caddy - No entry
    Infiniti - No entry
    Lexus - No entry
    MB - S63 AMG

    Now can we move on?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    louiswei is correct, however, a small chip in the 335 will probably make the CTS-V look like a snail. I'd be able to get a whole nights sleep and wake up refreshed. BTW was that time going downhill with wind at the CTS' tail?
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    I don't completely disagree with what you are getting at, but this is not specified in the top of the discussion.

    An M3 is still a 3-series, is it not? Yet the top of the discussion says "3-series" and not "3-series minus the M3."

    And, yes, I know there is no M3 RIGHT NOW. But there was and will be.

    As for your list, where is the TSX I pointed out in my post? Yeah, its a 4-cylinder, I know. But the mags and many owners seem to think its a sports sedan, regardless.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    If the V model is included the M3 has to be as well.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Is it size? Is it price? Is it where it falls in the manufacturers lineup?

    It's not all about size, not all about price and not all about where it falls in the manufacturers' lineup. It's about where does it fall in the market.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    rockylee you have got to stop this nonsense about the CTS-V. Compared to the 335i it falls short in every performance category. Plus it costs $15K more than a base 335i.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    exactly

    which is why I question where the line is. Why the 335, but not M3? Why the CTS but not CTSV?

    If we exclude the top models like the V and M, then why are we allowing any kind of engine options? Should we only be discussing the TRUE ENTRY LEVEL vehicle in this discussion that we have named "ENTRY-LEVEL" vehicles??

    It would make for a boring discussion however. How enthusiastic can we be about the 328 vs IS250 vs TSX? Not very.

    So what I'm asking for is a clear defining line. Louis MIGHT be onto something ... but its not quite there yet.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    The fact remains it doesn't take a aftermarket chip for the Cadillac CTS-V to hand both the BMW 335i and M3 it's [non-permissible content removed].

    Y'all can spin it anyway y'all want to feel good. If GM, loses a comparo I give the other company a congrats. Take it like a man, and move on...good grief. :confuse:

    Rocky
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    But honestly ... and this is not just directed at you rocky ... who the heck CARES???

    If I wanted something based STRICTLY on performance, I'd get a crotch rocket and put everything on this board to shame!

    As shoppers, especially shoppers in this category, we are looking for far more than performance numbers dictate.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    So what I'm asking for is a clear defining line. Louis MIGHT be onto something ... but its not quite there yet.

    I don't know what I am onto but I think this board is dedicated to the regular models of the entry lux performance sedans. Whether it's 328i/335i or IS250/350. I think the M, -V and AMG are all special factory tuned models which should be in a class of their own.

    Like I said before, the market decides where does a car fall. For example, how many of y'all actually considered the M3, CTS-V and C55 AMG while shopping for your entry lux performance sedan. I know I didn't, my final 2 are IS350 and 330i. The M3 didn't even come across my mind. However, that's just me.

    blueguy, did you consider the M3 before buying your 330i?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The funny thing is the CTS-V is the same size as the G35 and Acura TL, both of which you guys say competes with the 335i.

    Since the M3 is about the same size as the Civic Coupe why don't we compare these 2 a well?

    M6 is about the same size as the Accord coupe and Solara we should put these 3 in the same class too right?

    :confuse:
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    And your thoughts of excluding those are what I'm referring to when I say you may be onto something. However, its not specified in the topic description.

    What we are still missing from the definition, however, is why one midsize example is allowed in (the TL), but others are not (5-series, E-class, etc).

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The fact remains it doesn't take a aftermarket chip for the Cadillac CTS-V to hand both the BMW 335i and M3 it's [non-permissible content removed].

    You did see those Nurburing numbers I showed you yesterday right? CTS-V is 8 seconds slower than the last gen M3. I think it's clear who handed who's [non-permissible content removed].
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    what you are missing is that he is answering the claim that the CTS competes with the 5-series and not the 3-series.

    And this is still the issue I posted above. We are allowing SOME mid-sizers but not others. It makes no sense.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    why one midsize example is allowed in (the TL), but others are not (5-series, E-class, etc).

    I don't think Acura designed the TL to compete against the 5er and E-class. TL's main targets are 3er, IS and G and that's why even though it has the size advantage it is still considered as a entry lux performance sedan.

    Acura uses the 2-entry-model-sedan lineup with the TSX and TL just like the ES/IS combo for Lexus. However, that doesn't mean that TSX is the entry lux and TL is the midsize lux. It's just the strategy Acura decided to pursuit.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Ditto the TL. It's not all about size in this class. Some are bigger and some are smaller but ultimately the market will decide which class does it fall. I think most people in Cadillac will agree with me that their intention with CTS is to compete against the 3er but not the 5.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Again, where's the luxury of the civic coupe and accord ?

    Nice spin !!!!

    Rocky
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Again, where's the luxury of the civic coupe and accord ?

    I am just following your line of thought since you are comparing size to size.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I thought we were talking 0-60 times and remember you are taking a M3 coupe against a CTS-V sedan ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well I was using the size reference to defend the CTS vs. 335i arguement saying the TL, G35, are about the same size. You made the reference that the CTS-V competes with the 5 series and not the 3. I pointed out it was Cadillacs intention to use the STS-V against the BMW M5, is all.

    Rocky
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    Trying to answer your question, I found blueguy's post where he states: I believe MSG 6702 or something...


    Manual transmission as standard equipment
    Suspension tuning with an emphasis on handling over ride quality
    Driver-oriented interior
    Smaller size - ideally a compact but that's getting tougher to find.
    RWD preferable, with FWD as passable and AWD if one really must.

    I would add:
    Price range between 30-45k
    No "supped up" cars like the M, AMG, V, S (4,6 or 8) or R
    220hp +
    Luxury nameplate
    Size- should fit 4 adults comfortably (and yes you can fit 2 adults in the backseat of a 3er or IS)

    Feel free to add....
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I think it boils down to this....You guys are anti-gm and just because GM, makes a faster better performing car than BMW's 335i, y'all will say it doesn't compete. .

    At a starting price of over 52k, the CTS-V no more competes against the 38k 335i than the M3 competes against the MKZ.

    Different classes of cars.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249

    blueguy, did you consider the M3 before buying your 330i?</I.

    No, they only had the coupe. Had the e46 M3 sedan been available, I would have bought one and that would have been that. I wanted something in the size and price range of a 3 series (sub 45k with both cars in the past 4 years).
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well to get all the equipment the CTS-V has in a BMW 335i it will take you $50K+.

    So price is the determining factor of what stays and what goes ?

    Well a $23K Acura TSX vs a $39K BMW 335i is then 2 different classes of cars also. So where do we draw the line ? How many $39K BMW 335i's are their going to be made ?

    Rocky
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Well, that's why you don't see TSX on top of the board...Personally I think TSX is an awesome car and if I was $10K short on the budget when I was shopping for a car TSX would be my #1 choice. However, the lack of power just make it not competitive enough to be included in this category.

    As for the $39K 335i...It doesn't matter how many of them are going to be made the bottom line is that if one wants a stripped down based 335i (still comes with 300hp, 300 lb-ft twin turbo inline 6), he/she can have it. On the other hand, Rocky, can you find me a CTS-V for $40K? I really don't want the leather seat, sun roof, upgraded radio, navigation and I'll take the 17" wheel. Can you get me a stripped down CTS-V?
  • flash11flash11 Member Posts: 98
    Well said Rocky.

    You who say the Lincoln MKZ does not belong in this forum are extremely narrow minded and leads me to believe that your opinions are flawed and biased. Go try a MKZ, compare it. I test drove it again today, the car is absolutely luxurious, with speed and style. That 263hp engine gives a lot of power and acceleration. It beats out the BMW and MB hands down when considering Luxury,Performance,options,price equally. It may not have a stick yet, may never will, but should not be excluded here based on that. There was no rule set about the stick just someones opinion, and this car should get mentioned here. I strongly believe the list in this forum should include the MKZ, along side any BMW 328xi, MB C230, Caddie CTS and Volvo S60R. You are doing your readers an injustice by keeping other manufacturers reputations hyped while Ford has outdone itself and deserves a place here. Go drive a MKZ, then again stubborn people will never admit they are wrong even when faced with the facts. The MKZ is a great entry level LUXURY performance sedan ! price $35K MSRP fully loaded with all options.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    So obviously no matter how I put it you and a few others posters will not except the CTS-V as a opponent. w/e :sick:

    Rocky
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Ford has outdone itself and deserves a place here

    You nailed it right on the point. With the MKZ Ford has outdone itself but still light years behind the pack. BTW, it's really not that hard for Ford to outdo itself. Especially for the Lincoln brand.

    Let me ask you this, so you have driven the MKZ, fine. What other cars have you driven before? Do you have any experience to get behind the wheel of a 330i/335i? an IS350? a G35 (last gen or current gen)? or a TL? If you have do you mind to share the experience with us so we'll have an idea on how competitive the MKZ is comparing to the other usual suspects.

    Also, what cars have you driven before in your life? Just out of curiosity.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    So obviously no matter how I put it you and a few others posters will not except the CTS-V as a opponent.

    So obviously no matter how I put it you and a few others posters will not except the CTS-V as NOT an opponent. :confuse:
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    rocky, we've been over this.

    335i sedan
    Premium pack
    Sirius
    Navi
    Sport pack

    46k msrp

    CTS-V with gas guzzler and sport shocks = 54k
Sign In or Register to comment.