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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Well the 328 should be in and the 335i should be out because it's base price of $39K is thousands higher than the competition.

    Okay, so following your line of thought...

    After we take out the 335i, we then have to take out the IS350 because without the 335i, it is thousands highter than the competition. After that the G35 Sport is out, then the TL then at the end we'll end up with NOTHING.

    There is nothing wrong for the 335i to be the most expensive of the pack, it's performance speaks for itself. If someone don't like it he/she can opt for the lesser 328i. After all, we are in a free country right?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    With my "GMS" GM employee discount

    Can EVERY customer whom wants a CTS-V use the GM employee discount? Someone works for BMW can make a same argument on the 335i as well. Ditto a Toyota employee on the IS350.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    The MKZ, is the younger brother of the Town Car and soon to be MKS, so.....So the Lincoln Town car Signature-L isn't a luxury car anymore :surprise: ......Okay !!!!!

    I was only kidding on the year end fire sale. :P

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    GM, did give a employee discount to everyone a few years ago. :P

    Rocky
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "You forgot the 1991 GMC syclone 0-60 in 4.6 and the 1992-93 GMC Typhoon 0-60 in 5.3 straight from the factory."

    The key word being, "straight," like pretty much every American made vehicle...
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    Well the 328 should be in and the 335i should be out because it's base price of $39K is thousands higher than the competition.

    Since the current price ceiling being discussed is around $40k, that's ok.

    Again I realize this is a no domestics allowed forum

    didn't i say no sulking? ;b

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    Actually if you actually read what Pat posted, this forum is meant for vehicles that are the younger brothers of their more luxurious siblings. Lincoln is not a luxury car manufacturer, it is a near-luxury manufacturer.

    And if you followed the rest of that particular discussion, she said she was looking at those with a $50k car in the stable. Lincoln has one.

    So drop this "lincoln isn't luxury" BS. If you want to exclude it, then so must you exclude Acura. They are priced almost identically ($28k to $50k). Lincoln is excluded for now due to lacking performance.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    While Lincoln may be acceptable in this forum, nobody I know confuses Lincoln as a luxury manufacturer. Near luxury or semi luxury maybe.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    " Who in the heck is going to buy a $39K 335i with vinyl interior ? $44-45K is what the average 335i buyer will spend."

    I just built a 335i with "Dakota Leather Upholstery." MSRP is $40,845. Invoice is $38,187.

    The base 335i already comes very well equipped with everything the "average buyer" needs in a luxury car. Sure, you could spend thousands of dollars on "power folding outside mirrors" and "active cruise control." I wouldn't.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,891
    Opinions are certainly not against the law.

    Personally, my head hurts if i try to break down the manufacturers to such a degree. If we really tried, we could break manufacturers down into a dozen categories ... but that would just make too many damned discussions to follow. ;)

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    He straight up told me my 330i with leather, sport, pdc and comfort access was a "stripped" car. :confuse:
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Wow, busy forum today. My posts are obsolete by the time they pop up on the screen!

    GMS (supplier) and GM Employee pricing are two different things. Also, while I haven't checked on the Cadillac "V-cars" specifically, I do know that dealers generally don't extend Employee/Supplier pricing on specialty cars (like the Z06 for example).
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Personally, my head hurts if i try to break down the manufacturers to such a degree

    I'll give it a try... :P

    Common Brand:

    Everything that's not listed in the following 3 groups.

    Semi/Near Luxury:

    Acura
    Buick (maybe, maybe not)
    Lincoln
    Infiniti (this could go both way, luxury/semi-luxury)
    Volvo
    Saab

    Luxury:

    Audi
    BMW
    Cadillac
    Jaguar
    Lexus
    MB
    Land Rover

    Ultra Luxury/Prestigeous/Sports-Oriented:

    Austin Martin
    Bentley
    Ferrari
    Lamborghini
    Lotus
    Maserati
    Maybach
    Porsche
    Rolls-Royce
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I know. Even the "base" model includes sunroof, auto dual-zone climate control, trip computer, rain-detect wipers, and power everything.

    If someone wants carbon fiber trim and laser cruise control, well they have to be willing to fork over the extra $$$$. I don't think the inclusion of these features should be considered when pricing the car for the "average buyer."

    Anyone who buys a Porsche, for example, knows to be careful with the options list. A $70,000 911 can quickly turn into a $100,000+ car just by checking a few boxes - with not a single performance upgrade among them!"
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,199
    Actually.. GMS is the employee program...

    The GM supplier program goes by a different term..

    I know.. that makes no sense... but, there you go....

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  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Oh, it must have changed since I last used the program (in 2002).

    There used to be two employee plans - an "A" and "B" plan. One was a flat discount off MSRP and the other was 5% off your best negotiated deal from dealer stock.

    I think those plans are gone now.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    Lincoln is not a luxury brand and doesn't belong here.

    Well, that's good to know.

    My LS has RWD, a manual & a number of other features that people discuss here a lot. The company is certainly clueless & the car is extinct, but I only learned today that the Lincoln nameplate isn't luxury.

    Is Cadillac?
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Someone sure hates Volvo and Saab. Didnt even make his list of makers. :P

    Buick - no. *One* model that's maybe an Avalon competitor, but at 35K, it's still not by anyone's definition, "sporty".

    You might add in the upper-end VWs, though - a couple of nice models appear every so often. If the 350Z had a back seat and four doors... There are a few oddballs out there that might fit in like this, so don't count everything out. :)

    I think $35K is a good limit. $40K+ after delivery and taxes and such is really mainstream luxury territory. $35K also gives you enough room to add a few options and so on and end up out the door for under $40K.

    IMO, the MKZ fits the category. The CTS does as well. I suspect even maybe one of the upper-end VWs also might make the cut. It's a pretty wide category, afterall.
  • robbiegrobbieg Member Posts: 346
    Agree to disagree on the MKZ. It just doesn't do anything for me. I am not sure do you actually like the MKZ or do like the fact that it is cheaper than the BMW?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well for the record fedlawman, they do offer the GMS on the CTS-V, which I looked into a few years ago and also for the record I do know the difference between the GMS and GM supplier program. My father and both grandfather along with many relatives of mine worked for or currently work for GM.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Like I said a 335i with just basic leather interior without options is no better than a Mustang GT. Might as well save you $10-15K and get you a Mustang, since a stripped 335i isn't a luxury car. Geez people !!!

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    The key word being, "straight," like pretty much every American made vehicle...

    What's that suppose to mean ? I didn't know most BMW owners are out at the track every weeked racing around the Nurenburing, thus meaning great handling over straight-line performance is a stupid argument since most will use the straightline performance 90% of the time...

    Rocky

    P.S. I can name a few american cars that out handle your BMW's ;)
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Volvo is wholly owned by ford. Saab by GM.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Geez people !!!"

    You don't think in your heart of hearts a 335i, which can outhandle and out perform a Mustang and cost $39 to the Mustang's $34K will be confused by anybody?

    Same with the CTS-V. Get a $39K 335i, save $15K and beat the pants off the CTS-V.

    Get over the fact you don't think a stripped 335i isn't a luxury car. The 335i is the consumate entry level vehicle and meets all of the criteria more than the other brands you have been mentioning.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    The GMS is the employee discount and can save you as much as 15.31% off MSRP. Avg. is 12% though. You will be into the dealers "holdback money"

    The GM-Supplier is about 5% off and a savy buyer can beat it quite easily.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    LOL, it's actually pretty funny when a car such as the MKZ, has luxury features not found in a BMW, and they say the Lincoln isn't the Luxury car. :confuse:

    Rocky
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    They don't say it, I said it. Outside of this forum, Lincoln is not a luxury manufacturer, you may feel differently. (IMO).

    So by your logic the amount of luxury is controlled by the feature set of the vehicle? The WRX STI has driver defined variable differential control and a watercooled intercooler, not found onn 99% of all cars including the MKZ? Therefore it has more luxury then the MKZ?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I like the MKZ, and its not because it's sheer performance. I like the BMW 335i, also but my point was defending the MKZ, as a true entry-lux performance sedan. It has more power than some of the cars mentioned on this forum and is very competitive in price. It also doesn't miss on the luxury side of the equation like a stripped $39K 335i. ;)

    Rocky
  • robbiegrobbieg Member Posts: 346
    Here is how I would group them. I agree Buick is out. Lincoln probably too. Some of the more expensive Passats are close but miss out because they are lumped in with the Rabbits.

    In the first group are Volvo, Saab, Acura, Infiniti (though their prestige is rising again), and Cadillac.

    Next group, which is more prestigious, BMW, Audi, MB, Jaguar (minus the the x-type, no one thinks this a real Jaguar) and Lexus.

    While Lincoln and Buick have all of the bells and whistles, they are not in the same category as the others because they are not perceived as being as prestigious. The Hyundai Azerra has the bells and whistles but it misses mark for the same reason.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    You don't think in your heart of hearts a 335i, which can outhandle and out perform a Mustang and cost $39 to the Mustang's $34K will be confused by anybody?

    I was using the Mustang to be sarcastic but once I mention Shelby, then it becomes a different ball game. (I won't go there)

    Same with the CTS-V. Get a $39K 335i, save $15K and beat the pants off the CTS-V.

    We've already had this discussion and as I proved to you already the CTS-V does everything better than the 335i

    Next Question:

    Get over the fact you don't think a stripped 335i isn't a luxury car.

    If a stripped 335i is a luxury car then a kia sophia is then also. Come-on dude you are losing credibility. What is luxurious about a pleather 335i. For god sakes it doesn't have heated seats standard which is one of the basic gadgets found in a luxury car. Hell my moms G6 GTP has heated seats :confuse:

    The 335i is the consumate entry level vehicle and meets all of the criteria more than the other brands you have been mentioning.

    I'm not debating whether or not the 335i is the best. I was simpily pointing out the MKZ, should be allowed to stay since it has the credentials. ;)

    Rocky
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    He's being contrarian. The way your car is configured is the way 99% of the 3 series buyers get BMWs equipped. I do not buy cars loaded with a lot of useless crap. He does. So rather than focus on performance as a criteria, he focuses on doo-dads as a criteria. Nothing wrong with that, different strokes for different folks.

    Me I'd drive a stripper 335 anyday over an MKZ. At least the smile that's plastered to my face will never go away.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "We've already had this discussion and as I proved to you already the CTS-V does everything better than the 335i"

    Actually you've proved nothing because it isn't so.

    "If a stripped 335i is a luxury car then a kia sophia is then also"

    Okay by me.

    "Come-on dude you are losing credibility"

    Please don't even go there.

    Please stop with the CTS-V, it does not do one thing better than the 335i other than cost $15K more. Ok, it's slightly larger, if that's your fancy. Wait, you are referring to the 2008 model that will kill off the competition....
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Rocky, what is special about heated seats? Honestly, i don't define build quality, exceptional handling and great engineering by worthless gadgetry. You assign more value to doodads than the actual quality of the car's performance. This is a luxury performance sedan forum, not a luxury car forum. You're in the wrong place - try the forum with the ES350.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Now you are taking what I said and blowing it way out of context and is ridiculous.

    Rocky
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Now you are taking what I said and blowing it way out of context and is ridiculous"

    You've been doing that for a while.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Agree buick is out because of its FWD and soft suspension. The MKZ has a sport-tuned suspension and RWD, which IMHO gives them enough clout to be mentioned. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I never said that everyone will configure their cars like me. I said the majority of folks will select the options I believe bluedotguy used at $46K I would logically assume most BMW drivers will stay in the $44-46K range with their 335i. If you are going to spend in the mid $40's buy ya a Shelby GT 500 and get a bigger smile. For the same price you get a extra 200 horsepower and will be the envy of most people in your local community both young and old. ;)

    Rocky
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    mkz is fwd or awd, not rwd...
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    nobody envies a guy in a 2007 ford.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    The 07' CTS-V vs the 335i I was actually using for comparison purposes. 0-60 in 4.6 0.92g's on the skidpad compared to 4.8 and 0.88g's and those are off the top of my head. :P

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Sorry, I knew better. ;)

    Rocky
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    The CTS-V does not belong here. The MKZ does not belong here.

    Once again, please create a discussion that suits your interests instead of trying to change this one.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    I did a google search for "lincoln mkz" and this was the 1st hit ("Official Lincoln Site"):

    http://www.lincoln.com/reachhigher/?section=MKZhome&sReferrer=189394|14539740|53- 561043|0

    I clicked on every link. I read the every bullet. There isn't a single reference to the suspension, sport-tuned or otherwise.

    If this is a sport sedan, Lincoln sure doesn't want consumers to know it.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Here's the price for a BMW 335i with heated leather seats...

    MSRP is $41,845. Invoice is $39,097.

    This car also has Dynamic Stability Control, Xenon headlights, Power seats/headrests with 2-driver memory (seats and mirrors), Multifunction steering wheel with Bluetooth controls, Engine start/stop button, Vehicle/key memory (retains HVAC, seat, mirror, and audio settings), Auto-climate control with rear controls, 2-way power moonroof, Dynamic cruise control, Rain sensing wipers, Logic7 surround sound with Aux input, and all the latest safety technology (brake fade compensation, brake drying, adaptive brake lights, etc.).

    You lost any trace of credibility you might have had when you compared this car to a Mustang and a Kia.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "Double-Wishbone Design

    The double-wishbone design is tuned to provide sporty performance. Understeer is reduced, and better contact with the road is increased for more consistent handling."


    That's all you could find?!?! The Honda Accord has had this for more than a decade.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I don't care what you are using. Post a link to these numbers with someplace that is a reliable source. I also read the 335i got to 60 in about 4.5 seconds with a skidpad of .93. For comparison purposes these are the numbers I'm using. Makes the other cars look like they are battery operated. :)
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,199
    Hey.. so does the new '07 BMW X5!!

    Not sure what that says about BMW, though...

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  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    It's a nice car but...

    #1 criteria on my list and several others as well as the original posting...

    MUST HAVE MANUAL TRANSMISSION.

    I don't care if it's a $35K Ferrari(if such a thing existed) - no stickshift - not a sports sedan.
  • allargonallargon Member Posts: 75
    Respectfully, Host, you are close to kicking Acura out with that price level of $50K.

    Chrysler and Hummer got left of the near and luxury brands list. However, I wouldn't put either here.

    IMHO, the listed cars belong here. Volvo, Jaguar and Lincoln are all luxury nameplates. However, they don't really make entry level luxury PERFORMANCE sedans. (The X-type comes the closest of these 3.)

    Now, back to the cars...sedans only

    3-series sedans (No M as it's a coupe anyway)
    9-3 sedan
    A4 sedans (NO S4,RS4)
    C-class sedans (NO AMG)
    CTS both engines (NO V)
    G35 SEDAN
    IS250/350
    TL (TSX is a European family sedan--i.e. Accord)

    I know a lot of people in this forum like to pick on BMW and Lexus for their higher MSRP's. However, I wonder if anyone has actually looked at the MSRP for the C350? (Hint: It's well in the mid 40's, too.)
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