Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

frisconick · January 2007

If you have the money, buy the bimmer. I have never regretted spending extra for something I REALLY wanted.

kdshapiro · January 2007

Heck my BMW cost $6.5K more than your G and it was worth every little penny. I did have buyers remorse though. I really wanted that M3.

louiswei · January 2007

First of all, I don't have a G, however, good car though.

The ugly interior of the 3er is a major issue, it just doesn't look right.

spiritinthesky · January 2007

"The ugly interior of the 3er is a major issue, it just doesn't look right."

Doesn't look right with what? Your evening dress and high heels? Yes, Lexus has BMW beat on prissiness, but some of us guys actually prefer an interior that looks like it belongs in a "sports" sedan. To each their own, as they say.

louiswei · January 2007

You just said it, it doesn't look right with BMW's sport sedan characteristics. IMO, not just Lexus, pretty much every car in this class has BMW beat on "prissiness" as you put it, except of course the CTS.

And Rocky, yes I know the 2008 CTS will be da bomb both inside and out. There, just saved you a post. :P

kdshapiro · January 2007

I think he was agreeing with my contention the interior of the BMW is superb for it's intended function, which I may add suits me just fine. While I wouldn't have used the word "prissy" to describe the Lexus interior I agree with the assessment.

sprinkler13 · January 2007

not in the BMW...that is part of the cold weather package or as a standalone option. Trust me...I've been going back and forth for weeks now and if it wasn't for the fact that I'm eligible for the VPP plan on the G35, I'd still be deciding. BMW's finance numbers are so much better that the difference in the two cars ends up being around 70 bucks a month or so...factor in the free maintenance and the difference gets closer still. However, with my VPP discount, the difference will likely be more than that so it's worth it for me. Plus, I have been extremely happy with my 2003 G35 and really like the new touches in the 2007.

designman · January 2007

If you want to talk about driving, thats one thing, but BMW styling is the pits for the most part. Subjective, yes, but the current curlicue BMW interiors are NOT the paradigm of sport. If I bought a 335i coupe my first inclination would be to snip off the seat belt feeders with a pair of diagonals. That's some serious prissy.

kdshapiro · January 2007

Yeah, but on a regular basis I don't drive either looking at the seat belt feeders, admiring the seat belt feeders, or controlling the vehicle with the seat belt feeders. They have the same panache as cupholders in the back seat.

louiswei · January 2007

Love the interior discussion but since the BMW guys are in denial (haha, j/k), here's a new topic...

Why's that some cars' gas pedals are lighter/heavier than the others?

During my recent test drives I've notice that Acura and Infiniti have heavier gas pedals than Lexus and BMW. Infiniti has the heaviest, then Acura, Lexus has the lightest and BMW is somewhere in the middle. Come to think about it this phenomenon doesn't happen just on these ELLPSs. I remember my old Accord has heavier gas pedal than my parents' Camry and 4Runner as well. So I think traditionally Honda's gas pedals are heavier than Toyota's.

This could also explain why although the new G35 has 306 HP, it doesn't feel as punchy as the IS350.

My question is, what's the cause(s) to have some manufactures having heavy gas pedals and others having light ones? What are the advantages/disadvantages for each type or they simply doesn't matter?

designman · January 2007

Yeah, but on a regular basis I don't drive either looking at the seat belt feeders, admiring the seat belt feeders, or controlling the vehicle with the seat belt feeders.

Thats because your BMW doesnt have seat belt feeders. Theyre as obnoxious as a politician shaking hands and handing out leaflets at the train station the week before election day. Only its worse. BMW gave us election day 365 days a year, 24/7 with that asinine feature. Everytime you go into the car its greeting you.

laurasdada · January 2007

Since I do spend a fair amount of time driving my car whilst in its interior ( :surprise: ), an interior design, as well as suitable materials, that appeals to me is important.

To me, it appears that the Bangle-led design team spent so much time trying to "flame surface" the exteriors and tack on horrendous (in varying degrees, 6 series is the most egregious of offenders) bustle backs of the BMWs that the interiors seem to be an afterthough. Even a non-thought. The materials seem high quality to me, and if they were seeking a minimalist, blunt and totally Orwellian 1984, Apple Super Bowl commercial of many years ago function over form (and, yes, I know this is nirvana to some: BG.com comes to mind)interior, well then, kudos! Success. But, as I like to enjoy my surroundings while maybe not hustling through the twisty, rolling hills and switchbacks that Rte. 128 outside of Boston is so famous for (read: sarcasm! In other words, while sitting in traffic or at stop lights or just hiding from the family in my TL in the garage...), the artistry of interior (and exterior for the times I am approaching, washing or just lovingly gazing at my car) design, without noticeably compromising functionality, well then BMW is not so successful. I especially dislike the "two hooded" look of the main instument pod and nav/IDrive screen. BMW is not the only offender here, and thankfully it is an option on the 3.

I enjoy driving. I also enjoy the car as art (see Jaguar XK, Aston Martin DB9/V8 and, of course, Acura TL

). Each BMW Bangle design since the pre-freshened 7 series seems to be just a bit less of a Bangle design. That is good. But the interiors, to me aren't improving. To me. To each.

Peace on earth and goodwill towards men. Even Chris Bangle.

Oh, yeah. Almost forgot: Go Pats!!! Crush the Jets!!!

joe131 · January 2007

laugh at 'em if you want, but they sure make it easier to get ahold of the seatbelt.

kdshapiro · January 2007

The lighter/heavier feel is the spring. Most new vehicles are drive by wire and the spring is built into the mechanism.

joe131 · January 2007

I've never driven the Saab or the Lexus in the list above, but I'd bet the MazdaSpeed 6 would be a better entry level luxury performance sedan than either of them. Much faster than either and better handling too. And all wheel drive as a bonus. The Speed6 is pretty luxurious in the Grand Touring trim. Really nice leather on the seats. It's roomy too. MSRP is around $31,000 but selling for 10-20% less. 6 speed stick shift only.
Anyone else drive one and like it?

nyccarguy · January 2007

I'm not saying the G35 or IS350 are bad cars, they are just not for me. From what i've noticed reading these boards and from personal experience is that many people who are buying the Japanese Luxury/Sport Sedans are always defending their cars not only by singing their many praises (In their minds), but by many times saying that they could have bought the BMW but...

I've never heard it the other way around. Most of the people I know who own German cars love the way they drive and maybe they are not as "perfect" as their Japanese counterparts, but they don't long to own any particular Japanese make or model.

A few examples:

1. My best friend does a lot of driving (between 35,000 & 40,000 miles per year). He leases cars. Besides his personal car, he often drives family members' cars who are under their lease miles. A few years ago he drove his sister's E46 325iA with SPort Package for about 6 months. When the time came for his wife to get a car a few months after that, he got her a TL. He got a great "deal" on the car (a comparable BMW was much more to lease at the time due to an Acura factory program). Ask him what he thinks about the Acura. He'll tell you it has a nice interior, it is roomy and comfortable, and he likes all the bells and whistles. He'll also tell you it rides too soft, has terrible torque steer, & sloppy handling. He says he'd take the 184hp 325i (E46) over the Acura if he could do it all over again. Next time he's going German.

I have a friend who lives in South Florida. He and his wife moved there from Michigan. 6 months after they moved, she is getting her 330Cic serviced and is poking around the showroom. Falls in love with a White/Cinamon/Black Top M3 Cic. Started talking to a sales person. She took the M3. My buddy and his wife lost A LOT of money because she traded in the 330Cic (still had 1+ year to go on her lease) and forked over the HUGE security deposit from it as a CAp Cost Reduction on the M3 and to pay for the remaining lease payments on the 330Cic (plus I'm sure they were sold the car at sticker and the mf on the lease was bumped up). Her lease payment essentially DOUBLED. Guess what...They've got the car for 3 years and enjoy every second of it. No regrets!

I'm not saying to be stupid and break the bank or go in over your head on a car you can't afford. But if you like a certain car (say a BMW) drives, life's too short to compromise if you can afford it.

shouldiwait · January 2007

BMWs are over-rated cars except for perhaps the M3. I own a 2000 323i. Bought it brand new for $34000+ tax when it first came out. At 52000 miles, the oxygen sensors broke and costed over $500 to replace. At the same mileage, the high and low power steering pressure hose leaked, $300 to replace by a local mechanic. Wouldn't even want to think what the dealer would charge. Just replaced the back window regulator for $300. I am afraid the other 3 may break soon. At the current 67000 or so miles, I am about the replace a 3rd set of brakes. Keep in mind that BMW requires that you replace the rotors when the pads are changed.

Now let's get back to the current BMW 335 sedan. A fully equipped one in auto (premium & sport package, cold weather package and navigation) is close to $48000. Let's say that I can get $2000 discount, this is $46000 + tax/fees. I just bought a Type S for $35600 including (mud guards, wheel locks, rubber mat and trunk tray). That's over $10000 cheaper than a BMW 335. You do the math. I think both cars get the same look.

Forgot to add that I also got 4.9%. What I pay for my car is probably what some pay for the lease on the BMW 335.

rockylee · January 2007

And Rocky, yes I know the 2008 CTS will be da bomb both inside and out. There, just saved you a post.

I'm just glad you are becoming more open-minded :P

louiswei, based on what I've seen from the 2008' CTS it will be da bomb dog. :shades:

I know, i know the future is the future but in this case it's just around the corner.

Have a Gooden

Rocky

louiswei · January 2007

Much faster than either and better handling too.

You are kidding me right? MS6 faster than IS350? In the recent R&T comparo, IS350 scores 4.9 sec from 0 to 60 and 13.5 sec to 1/4 mile. I would like to see how MS6 top that. Handling on the other hand, is a different ball game. However, I don't see how it can be "better".

Bottom line is, MS6 would qualify as an entry level performance sedan but falls short on the luxury part. Due to that thus not included in this segment.

louiswei · January 2007

Reasons why none-3er owners sometimes are forced to defend their buying decision:

1. Their car being bashed from 3er owners for something like crap, junk, piece of brick, etc... you get the idea

2. Recognizing BMW is the handling king doesn't mean I like it more than the others. I, for one (not speaking for others), does not purchase cars solely on handling.

3. To point out some other areas which maybe important to other people but often overlooked by the 3er owners. For example: interior styling, price and reliability.

4. Since 3er is the favorite, there's gotta be somebody out there cheering for the the underdogs.

dafreak1 · January 2007

No offense but the CTS has to be one of the ugliest cars on the road. That alone keeps me from even looking at it. That and it carries an American badge.

habitat1 · January 2007

You are comparing apples and oranges. I own a 2004 TL 6-speed w/ 23k miles. Last time in for service, I got a test drive of the TL-S automatic (no 6-speed available).

The TL-S automatic is not as quick as my TL 6-speed. It didn't feel quite as flat in corners or nimble in handling, but the difference was nominal. I don't know if, on the TL-S, they have a firmer "sport" suspension on the 6-speed - they did on my 2004, along with Brembo brakes.

All of that said, the TL and TL-S are extremely nice, well balanced, sporty family sedans. I would heartily recommend one to friends looking for that blend of sport, luxury, features and value.

But comparing a FWD TL-S to a 335i, which is a true high performance RWD sport sedan is not a fair comparison. Certainly, if the added performance of the 335i is not of value to you, then the extra $10k is a waste of money. But there is a difference between a well balanced, sporty family sedan and a serious sports sedan. The TL/TL-S is the former and the 335i is the latter.

kdshapiro · January 2007

The top 3 reasons why BMW owners are forced to defend their purchases are:

1. ?
2. ?
3. ?

qbrozen · January 2007

why would anyone be forced to defend anything???

if you buy and drive what you like, and are happy with your decision, you should have absolutely no reason to feel a defense is in order.

louiswei · January 2007

Okay, here's what I get from your post:

TL/TL-S: well balanced, sporty sedan
335i: serious sports sedan

So base on that, how should we categorize the ELLPS segment? If comparing TL to 335i is apples to oranges then one of them can't belong in this segment right? My understanding is that every car listed on top of the page are comparable to each other in an "apples to apples" way. Yes/No?

Maybe we need another place for "serious sports sedan" discussion regardless of luxury. Because my understanding of the ELLPS segment is "blend of sport, luxury, features and value" which is exactly your definition for Acura TL.

louiswei · January 2007

why would anyone be forced to defend anything???

Because this is a public forum and there are a lot of people reading these posts. If there are inaccurate statements toward any of these cars (3er included) I think it's everybody's responsibility to clear that up so someone that's here for information wouldn't be misled. The owners know their own cars best so it is obvious for an IS350 to defend the IS and TL owner to defend TL as so on.

I think we are all adults here and are mature enough to admit buyers' remorse if there is one.

Classic example of how 3er owners defend their cars: "the handling is the best and it'll beat any car on a track".

Classic example of how IS owners defend their cars: "awesome acceleration (350 owners), best interior in the class, typical Lexus quality/reliability".

Classic example of how G35 owners defend their cars: "3er replacement for much less of its price, the best value in class".

Classic example of how TL owners defend their cars: "toy-rich standard equipment, although FWD but handles superbly, also the best value in class".

Sounds familiar?

qbrozen · January 2007

sorry. i guess i'm a bit too literal. When you said "defend their decision," I didn't take that to mean defending a car's honor or stats. I say those things about all of those cars, yet I own none of them. So I don't consider that "defending my purchase decision."

habitat1 · January 2007

"So base on that, how should we categorize the ELLPS segment? If comparing TL to 335i is apples to oranges then one of them can't belong in this segment right?"

I was commenting on the previous poster's analysis that the 335i cost $10k more than the TL-S as if there isn't a fundamental difference between these cars. There is.

Does that mean they aren't both "ELLPS"? I'm not necessarily suggesting that. But you've already admitted that - other than straight line accleeration - you don't really care about the "P" in performance. That's fine, but that shouldn't be extrapolated into some objective conclusion that one is a better value than the other becuase it's cheaper, when in fact, it offers far less "P". A better value (objective) would be a car with similar or better attributes at a lower price. A better choice (subjective) is what works for you. Or me.

IMO, the TL-S and IS350 are much more directly comparable than either of those are to the 335i. But even that's IMO and I know some that would claim the IS shouldn't even be in this list because it can't seat 4 full size adults comfortably. So everybody has their priorities. I just think the term "better value" is being overused in this forum.

P.S. In the early 1990's, friends of ours (both lawyers) chose to buy a bigger house in a high end Baltimore neighborhood for $425k instead of a smaller house in a high end DC neighborhood for $650k. They justified it repeatedly as "You get a better value in Baltimore". Today, their Baltimore house is worth $800k and the one in DC would go for $2+ million. So which really was the better "value"?

louiswei · January 2007

Did I mention "value" any where in my previous post? Let me check, hmm...Not exactly. Value only appeared when I was quoting from your previous post.

That's not my point, the point is you are saying that TL-S to 335i is not an "apples to apples" comparison but at the same time they are in the same class. If we can't compare 2 cars from the same class as "apples to apples" then what else can we accomplish here?

IMO, the TL-S and IS350 are much more directly comparab

According to your logic, one is FWD and another is RWD, end of comparison here. On the other hand TL-S offers manual tranny but because it's FWD so not comparable to the Bimmer. Now my question is, what exactly is TL's role here? Maybe it's time to remove all none-RWD and none-automtic entries here and let 3er, G35, IS250 and CTS fight it out. Oh BTW yeah, because of the lack of power, let's remove the IS250 as well...

frisconick · January 2007

In my opinion, handling is the only advantage the bmw has over the tl. Most important to me is reliability. However, the tl does handle very good, has plenty of power and a lot more goodies that are standard. Hands down, the tl is the much better value.

blueguydotcom · January 2007

Handling and gobs more power. There's a power gulf of about 60 hp (320 hp to 260 hp).

Value wise the TL is great. Just as a Mcdonald's value meal is consistently cheaper than a Ruth's Chris lunch. You get fed no matter what.

dafreak1 · January 2007

I owned an 03' G35 and currently own an 06' TL that I plan to trade in in the next few days for an 07' G35. There is no comparison between these cars, the G35 is a different beast. I feel like I went from a care free kid when driving the G35 to a middle aged wuss whilst driving the TL. I got caught up in the TL hub bub and the "deal" but in the end I made a bad mistake and bought a car that is uninspiring and bland. I assume that is how some BMW owners feel about the G35 as well and I respect that. My two cents.

frisconick · January 2007

I thought new tl's had 286 hp and the 335 and 300? I could be wrong.

frisconick · January 2007

I almost bought a G35 coupe, so I do know what you guys are talking about. I test drove the G 3 times.

louiswei · January 2007

He's base TL and dyno 335i's HP values.

Yes. According to Acura and BMW, TL-S and 335i have 286 and 300 HP, respectively.

blueguydotcom · January 2007

He said TL, not TL-S and the 335i makes more than 300 hp. Haven't seen a dyno yet that shows less than 320. That's a major gulf.

habitat1 · January 2007

"According to your logic, one is FWD and another is RWD, end of comparison here."

Come on, I seriously doubt that given your driving preferences, you could personally tell the difference between FWD and RWD from behind the wheel. You bought 18" tires on a non-sport suspensioned, slushbox IS350 because they were "must haves" from an aesthetic standpoint. You are admittedly not a "driving enthusiast". The only time I find the TL's FWD to be a detriment is in spirited driving. But I would find the IS slushbox a detriment all the time.

I think the automatic TL and IS350 are more comparable because both emphasize "L" more than "P" in terms of gadgets, electronics and appointments and offer Japnaese "no-fuss" reliability.

To clarify: I'm not saying that any of these cars can't be compared to one another for features attirbutes and price. But at least three straight posts following your response credit one car or another with being the "better value" as if that is an objective metric that everyone should be able to agree on. It's not. That's my point and I'll give up beating a dead horse if it's still not clear.

habitat1 · January 2007

An 03' G35 to an '06 TL to an '07 G35?

And didn't I see where a $5k difference to jump to the 335i - which I think you indicated you would prefer - was too much of a stretch? You might want to consider sticking out your purchases a bit longer so you can better afford what you really want.

plekto · January 2007

If you compare the ever-increasing bloat of these cars, it's clear that we're seeing a revival of the old muscle-car era. Bigger engines and bigger cars - and...

The IS350 is almost 3500lbs! The 3 sereis is basically 3400 and change - hardly any different.

So none of them qualify anymore as a serious sports sedan. They all just weigh to much. Btw - the 325i from ~1990 weighed in at barely more than 2800lbs. To me it must be under 3000lbs, have RWD, and stickshift to qualify.

ggesq · January 2007

blueguy,

It waa right about the time when the IS350 came out and all the 3 series owners were telling IS350 supporters that "hp doesn't matter- what's the point?" & "yeah- that's great for straight line performance." The IS 350 blew the competition away when it first came out w/ the amount of raw power it offered and everyone chuckled at the IS owners about straight line performance.

Guess what- Infiniti and BMW responded because they recognized the obvious hp threat from Lexus.

Now your telling me that your gloating over the amount of hp the 335i has?? C'mon. If the 335i didn't come out when they did, 3er owners would still be saying "straight line performance" and "hp" doesn't matter. It's how well the car handles and blah blah blah. I'll admit that the hp in that 335i is impressive and is class leading (not literally). It's a great alterative the the e46 M3.

When the 4GTL comes out- that hp difference should be closer.

Just my .02.

louiswei · January 2007

Let's make this clear...The person you described above sounds like he/she will be really happy in a Buick LaSabre. However, that is not me.

I am definitely not a driving enthusiast because 1. I don't track my car, 2. don't drive like I stole it and 3. I enjoy the comfort my car's interior has to offer as well as its driving dynamics. That being said, it doesn't mean that I can't tell a different between FWD & RWD. One doesn't need to push the car to the limits in order to notice a difference. An average driver (okay, maybe a little above average) can tell a FWD/RWD from the first turn out of the parking lot.

Since you kept bringing out the 18" tire + none-sport suspension + automatic, let's get it over with once for all.

18": I like my car to look sharp, maybe you don't care much as how your car looks but I do. IMO, 18" looks better than 17". Also, have you seen any RWD IS with the 17" wheels? I doubt it. Because guess what they don't build it like that. Although the 17" is standard and 18" is option but almost every RWD IS shipped to the Southeast has 18" on them. So far haven't heard about the 18" causes problems on the IS yet.

None-sport suspension: Comparing to my old Honda Accord, the IS' suspension is "sport" enough. I really don't need a suspension that's any stiffer. As I said before, since I don't track my car, don't drive like crazy and there are no mountain roads around me, I just don't see the point to drop $4K on the relatively useless (to me of course) sport suspension.

Automatic: Manual is definitely more fun to drive, I know this due to my experience with the manual 3000GT and BoxterS. However, as this is currently my only car I think automatic is more practical. Especially when I was tired from a day's work and stuck in traffic, I would rather just listen to music, relax and not have to utilize my hand and feet that much. When it's time to purchase my second (weekend fun) car, the current top choice is Corvette Z06 with manual transmission.

Bottom line: I view the ELLPS as a fancier commuter box which is practical enough for everyday driving. When times come and I am searching for some serious fun and sport I'll be looking at someplace else.

qbrozen · January 2007

Are there ANY sports sedans these days that weight under 3k lbs???

by the way, a 1990 325i took nearly 8 seconds to hit 60 mph. That's on par with many mid-size SUVs by today's standards. Not exactly what I would call "sporting." And, yes, I know you'll point out the handling, but handling alone does not performance make.

dafreak1 · January 2007

Its not a stretch, its just not worth it. And its not 5K, its 10K. I do typically stick to my purchases longer but the TL in my mind it is a dog, a dog I no longer want. The G35 seems to be the best fit for me, whether I like the styling of the 335 coupe or not.

plekto · January 2007

Well, you obviously would compare the 1990M3.

The point is that 3500lbs is just too heavy.

Oh - 3000lbs - the RX-8 seats 4 people(it's technically a 2+2 sports sedan(yeah I know it has those wierd rear doors, but rear doors they still are)

It drives very nice. Now if they could figure out how to get 250hp out of the engine...

louiswei · January 2007

Thank you ggesq, just what I was thinking when we were discussing how great 335i is on a dyno.

There you go kdshapiro, here're your top 2 330i purchasing justifications:

1. HP doesn't matter, what's the point?
2. Yeah, that's great for straight line performance but 330i will blow everyone away on a track.

Oh, and I'll throw in the third:

3. 3er's interior is great for its functions.

blueguydotcom · January 2007

Agreed. The cars are massive now.

blueguydotcom · January 2007

t waa right about the time when the IS350 came out and all the 3 series owners were telling IS350 supporters that "hp doesn't matter- what's the point?" & "yeah- that's great for straight line performance." The IS 350 blew the competition away when it first came out w/ the amount of raw power it offered and everyone chuckled at the IS owners about straight line performance.

Having driven an IS350, I can say straight it went like a bat out of hades. But once you came to a corner you were confronted with lousy roadfeel, a yacht-like suspension and poor chassis performance. That still stands. On a track the IS350 would quickly fall to the e46 ZHP, 06 e90 ZSP, any G35 and probably most TLs and A4s.

Guess what- Infiniti and BMW responded because they recognized the obvious hp threat from Lexus.

No, they realized americans aren't too bright. We see a big hp number and think a car is good - hence the success of piggy cars like the 300C. So BMW and Infiniti offer "on-paper" HP comparable to an IS350 but of course the driving dynamics of the two far outshine the IS.

Now your telling me that your gloating over the amount of hp the 335i has?? C'mon. If the 335i didn't come out when they did, 3er owners would still be saying "straight line performance" and "hp" doesn't matter. It's how well the car handles and blah blah blah. I'll admit that the hp in that 335i is impressive and is class leading (not literally). It's a great alterative the the e46 M3.

We mention it because in a straightline the 335i takes the IS350. Then the first corners come. Uh-oh, it takes the corners faster than the IS350. By the end of a track run with the same driver you'd get times that are decidedly in favor of the BMW. Before you'd win out because you'd still take the twisties faster than the waffling IS can handle. Essentially, the car's the complete package. No matter what Lexus does to the IS in terms of HP - like the silly IS-F - the car will still be saddled with poor steering, poor roadfeel, junky tranny and a lousy chassis.

booyahcramer · January 2007

And safer, and roomier, and faster, and _______________.

booyahcramer · January 2007

Especially when I was tired from a day's work and stuck in traffic,

You work?

Seems like you're constantly on this board.

louiswei · January 2007

On a track the IS350 would quickly fall to the e46 ZHP, 06 e90 ZSP, any G35 and probably most TLs and A4s.

IS350 beats the TL-S and G35S on steering, brakes, ride and handling in the recent R&T comparo. I'll give you the same credit as to those editors, so this is pretty much a toss-up.

So BMW and Infiniti offer "on-paper" HP comparable to an IS350 but of course the driving dynamics of the two far outshine the IS.

See above regarding the Infiniti. Agree with 3er has better handling than IS.

like the silly IS-F - the car will still be saddled with poor steering, poor roadfeel, junky tranny and a lousy chassis.

Wow, so you have driven the IS-F already? Last I heard that the IS-F will be introduced at NAIAS next Monday and be at the show rooms late this year. If you had the privilege to test the IS-F then do tell. If the IS-F is silly then I don't see how M3, C AMG, S/RS-4 not being silly as well.

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