Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

jpnewt · February 2006

OOPS! Thanks for saving me again rorr, I will be more careful next time.

artgpo · February 2006

The reason I mentioned fleet sales originally (and incorrectly as I was off by 8%) was to show that the huge sales numbers of DCX vans are not just to individuals. I have no fleet numbers or any evidence to prove or disprove sales of Odysseys. Most of the minivans I see in the area I live are DCX. Drive a few miles to the more affluent area and it is Odysseys and Siennas.

If I had known there would this much whining and carrying on I would never have made that original post.

jipster · February 2006

"but I stated that the price was $450.00 less on the STICKER without the OPTIONAL moonroof and unavilable Climate Control"

nahhh...you may have stated that, but that's not what you wrote. You wrote, "it sells for $450 less than Ody and doesn't have climate control or moonroof".

It doesn't "sell" for $450 less than comparable Ody...it "sells" for around 4k-6k less. You didn't write anything on original post about STICKER or OPTIONAL equipment. But, it really doesn't matter. You got the van you wanted and I got the van I wanted.

Most people want a bigger minivan with a lot of the fancy features that Mazda minis don't have...so they ARE heavily discounted. The 2007 Mazda MPV, which at this time won't be availabe in the U.S, sounds pretty good. It's bigger, has a 2.4 lt. 4 cyl turbocharged engine rated around 250hp... that comes with a 5(maybe 6?) speed manual transmission available. Has dual reclining second row seats and is updated with more of the features/options people generally want in a minivan.

But, this is a Ody vs DCX topic discussion...apologies fellow members.

Sometimes I feel like the Maytag repairman...sitting over at the MPV board... waiting for a post.

Claires · February 2006

You may notice that a number of posts in this discussion are no longer here -- unfortunately, they were off-topic, disrespectful, etc.

A rule of thumb to follow when posting here: If your post has more references to you or another person than to a minivan, it will probably wind up on the sacriicial heap with the rest of the posts that were removed tonight.

Thanks.

Drive on over and see me!

dennisctc · February 2006

Good News...

A friend of mine, who works for Polk Automotive here in Detroit can provide us with exact fleet sales number for all Minivans. Hopefully he'll have data and link later today for me!

rorr · February 2006

"...with exact fleet sales number for all Minivans."

Terrific.

Now, tell me again (because my eyes have glazed over and I lost my train of thought): just exactly WHAT is everyone trying to prove with the fleet sales numbers??? How do these numbers have ANY relevance whatsoever? :confuse:

thegraduate · February 2006

I think this is how it goes (to those concerned, if incorrect, call me on it please).

Some Honda guys feel that fleet sales hurt the overall value of the Caravan twins by flooding the market with low-cost Dodge vans, making their resale value markedly lower. Some Dodge guys feel that fleet sales are a sign that their vehicles are more desirable than others not chosen for the fleets, usually when based on the value equation.

Is this right, dennis?

(PS. You'll notice I didn't bother commenting on the subject, as its not my issue here.)

rorr · February 2006

Okay - I think I see.

It's an issue of how fleet sales affect resale values (for the pro-Honda folks), vs. fleet sales are indicative of value or 'bang for the buck' which corporate sales/rental agencies are after (for the pro-DCX folks).

First off, you don't need to know % of fleet sales to argue resale values. Just look at any number of sources to compare resale value vs. purchase cost. Generally speaking, the Hondas hold a higher % of their initial value. This is either important or not important to the individual making a purchase decision. Personally, it wasn't that important to my wife and I since we typically hold onto our vehicles for 6-8 years and put a lot of miles on our vehicle. Resale didn't enter the picture for us.

Second - I wouldn't look at fleet sales as indicative of value. Since I have no idea what criteria corporations/rental agencies use to select vehicles, why would I assume that THEIR criteria is the same as mine? I couldn't care less if they think they are getting more 'value' by selecting Brand 'X'. I'LL DECIDE what has 'value' to me and select accordingly.

We might as well be arguing about the color selections available for the DCX and Honda vans.....

artgpo · February 2006

From an auto enthusiast point of view, it would be interesting to know just what the fleet numbers are. I do know that you see a bunch of Siennas in use as NYC taxis. I used to see Odysseys in the same use but don't know if that is still the case.

The more important thing for a shopper to know is what van provides the best value. Comfort is almost a personal opinion. Handling may not be important to everyone, same with performance. For those of us "regulars" here all the above are very important to the point of passion. No one is any more or less intelligent because they bought a specific brand or model.

sebring95 · February 2006

Actually, I think the fleet sales argument is really about how many private buyers are actually springing for the DC vans. The DC corner touts their high sales numbers as an indication of a more desirable vehicle. The HOA camp says a large % of those sales numbers are from fleets, so the "desirability" factor is skewed.

But yes, fleeting does effect resale value as well as rebates/incentives/etc. Ford has been trying to reduce fleet sales to maintain residuals, as well as fix the MSRP to close to reality. GM and Dodge have been trying to fix the MSRP gap as well when the introduce new vehicles.

hansienna · February 2006

As a DC minivan owner I recognize the adverse effect rental sales have on depreciation. I also recognize the lower cost of production effect that VOLUME production has. DC minivans are normally discounted to ordinary buyers because DC has volume production.
Almost all rental and fleet DC minivans are purchased by private individuals and thus, virtually all DC minivans are eventually purchased for private use.
The total initial sales of DC minivans (fleet, rental, private purchase)indicates the popularity of DC minivans.
The arrival of a viable Odyssey as a 1999 model and Sienna as 2004 has been very beneficial to we who own DC minivans because their good ideas have been copied by DC just as Honda and Toyota copied good ideas from DC and Mazda.
The BIG question is: "Why have GM and Ford been sleeping all these years"?

nwng · February 2006

you are now counting used car sales? LOL.

sebring95 · February 2006

They're discounted because they produce too many. No manufacturer wants to discount their vehicles, period. But that's the price the market will bring so they give-up profit to cover overhead by producing more. It's a situation Honda and Toyota monitor very closely, and adjust their production accordingly.

Ford has clearly stated they don't feel the minivan market is profitable enough to pursue developing a new vehicle. They're going for an SUVish type thing, maybe it'll be the next best thing. Personally, I think the market leaves just enough room for what's out there and Ford is probably smart to bow-out. The domestics need to stop building crap they can't make money off of, period.

rorr · February 2006

"The DC corner touts their high sales numbers as an indication of a more desirable vehicle."

Two points:

First, I would be HIGHLY SURPRISED if the numbers of DCX vans sold to private individuals wasn't substantially higher than the numbers of Odysseys sold to private buyers. Even if you throw out all the fleet sales, I think this is still the case.

Second, 'desirable' for whom?

Stepping back for a moment:

Why do we spend so much time in this forum (and I've done it many times myself) trying to 'prove' which vehicle is the 'best'?

Both vehicles are very good. Both vehicles are substantially better than the equivalent offerings 10 years ago. Both vehicles do a good job of meeting the needs of this market. Both vehicles have traits which are specific to their particular model. Both vehicles have features/options/etc. which are not found on the other.

Is the intent of the forum to continually validate to ourselves why we made the decision we did? Is the intent to try to convince the 'other guy' that he screwed up with his purchase decision? If this is all it is - hey, you guys have a GREAT time. I'll check in from time to time to catch up and maybe have a few laughs.

Or is the intent of the forum to (hopefully) provide some info to those folks trying to make an informed decision? Maybe it would be helpful for owners of the specific vans to talk about what they DON'T like about their vans after living with them for a while? This would be a different perspective.

I'll even go first:

I don't like the 'lazy-susan' rotating tray in the Ody. The tray takes up too much room and doesn't rotate unless the big lid is opened. I've taken ours out.

The Ody should offer either a telescoping wheel or adjustable pedals on all models. It's difficult for me to find a really good balance between legroom and reach to the steering wheel.

I wish the tray table between the front seats was a console (with hidden storage) instead of a flip down table. I understand the concept (access to the rear) but honestly, ours is always so loaded down with junk, the LAST thing we'd ever do is flop that table down.

That's about all that comes to mind immediately.....

hansienna · February 2006

Volume production = more vehicle for the money. That is why DC minivans continue to be driven by more people than the closest 2 competitors combined.
The Odyssey is a fine minivan but it is too expensive for many people. DC offers minivans in a wide price range to satisfy the needs of more people than does Honda. A fully loaded Chrysler T&C Limited is just as luxurious as the Honda Odyssey Touring...without the questionable PAX tires of the Ody Touring. The Ody Touring is better for a person who wants a minivan that handles most like a sports car.

highender · February 2006

I will be in the market for a minivan soon.

We are considering 3...the Chrysler , Sienna, and Odyssey.

What do you guys think ? Any concrete reasons for each, and any concrete reasons against ?

I wanted to buy American, to support our local industries...but are they up to par.. ?

sebring95 · February 2006

They're all-three good vans. All are built here in the states (about 1/2 of the Chryslers are build in Canada). It really comes down to personal preferences IMHO.

thegraduate · February 2006

Wow, that's a loaded question; especially for this board!

I'll do my best to give an unbiased report, as I'm sure a few others will do.

Merits and issues for each van...

Chrysler:
Pros:
Stow and Go is an idea no other van currently offers, and is quite ingenious. Chrysler has the most interior space (EPA says by about 15 cubic feet). The Chrysler usually can be had for less than the other two vans, often substantially so. The Chrysler is also nice looking, but seen EVERYWHERE on the road. Engine runs on regular fuel. The Chrysler has a softer than the Odyssey.

Cons:
Engine is only mediocre when compared with either Toyota or Honda, especially considering the horsepower advantage offered by Honda (Chrysler has 205 hp). The Chrysler makes do with a 4-speed automatic while the Honda and Toyota get a 5-speed automatic, which provides quicker acceleration and better economy that a 4-speed can. The Chrysler, while doing better, is still ranked "below-average" in consumer reports reliability study. Handling has been criticized for its less than stellar abilities.

Toyota
Pros:
Smooth, smooth, smooth! Quiet engine, cushy ride, stellar quality and reliability. Good pep from the Engine, although not as zippy as the Honda. It gets good mileage (19/27) for the class. The interior, when optioned appropriately, borders on Lexus levels of luxury, and regardless of options are well finished and exmplify quality

Cons:
Many option packages are actually a con, it makes finding a Sienna you want difficult (many come to dealers over optioned). Handling is not a strong suit of the van b/c of its soft suspension; steering is relatively vague and very light. Toyota is PROUD of their product, and the price is often accordingly high. The Toyota reccommends Premium fuel for full performance from the engine (215 hp)

Honda:
Pros:
Terriffic engine power (244 hp)for the class. Despite the power, the EPA got 20/28 mpg in instrumented testing for Leather models, 19/25 in cloth trim (Variable Cylinder Management makes that possible in the Leather-trimmed models).It's handling is the most carlike of the three, meaning it has sharp responses to steering. It has a "controlled" ride, meaning it does not float after you've hit a bump, the suspension just settles back down. Equipping an Odyssey is a simple process; there are no option "packages" to decipher; just simple trim levels. From lowest to highest they are LX, EX, EX-L, and Touring. The only options are DVD entertainment and a Nav system. Otherwise the cars are fully equipped. Engines run on regular gas.

Cons:
The "controlled" ride is often interpreted as more harsh that the other two vans. Many prefer a smoother ride to better handling abilities, and for those, the Odyssey may not be the best choice. The Odyssey is noisier than the Toyota, and I can't honestly say I remember the noise level of the Gr. Caravan I rode in a couple years ago. The Odyssey has had some first year quality issues (things like whistling and rattles), and is rated "Average" but is Reccommended by Consumer Reports.

A lot of this is opinion, yes, but some of it isn't. The best thing for you to do is look at your wallet, drive the cars, and pick whichever one pushes the right buttons!

rorr · February 2006

Pretty good synopsis; what the heck is wrong with you? :P

I'd recommend that anyone interested in this trio get full brochures on each, and then (if at all possible) go to a car show where you can spend A LOT of time going back and forth between each of the three contenders.

Things like interior/exterior style, material quality, control arrangement, seat comfort, ease of access, etc. etc. are best appraised by the individual rather than a bunch of partisan hacks here in the TownHall (including myself

).

And by all means, don't decide on ANY of these without a thorough test drive of each contender. What we in here may like/dislike may be totally opposite of whatever floats your boat.

thegraduate · February 2006

Pretty good synopsis; what the heck is wrong with you?

Sorry, I forgot to bring my forum baggage on that last post. What was I thinking?

artgpo · February 2006

Your post was the best on here in months. Let the buyer make up their own mind. You provided just what the person was looking to read.

I have owned 7 minivans since my first in 1983....all brands both good and bad. I am presently driving a 2006 Odyssey EX-L. I have accumulated 6,700 miles since 10/3. The van is solid, powerful, very comfortable and well made. I test drove the Sienna prior to driving the Odyssey. I also frequently have Grand Caravan or Town and Country vans as rentals. I prefer the Odyssey because of the virtues listed above plus none of the others comes close to its handling and standard safety features. The Odyssey is as tight as a drum.

badgerfan · February 2006

Some actually sane, evenhanded postings! Now we can shut this discussion down, as there is nothing left to argue about

Seriously, no one has the "best" minivan. It all depends on what you like/rate as most important and what you can afford.

If pocketbook issues are important and the most flexible interior is necessary, the DGC minis have the edge.

If you just gotta have an OHC engine and a 5 speed tranny, then you have to pick Yota or Ody. If plushness is your bag, Yota. If drivetrain and performance, ODY, but truthfully, no minivan is going to be a sports car.

All of them are within a stones throw of each other on fuel efficiency. All have gobs of storage space compared to any other vehicle in the same length and fuel efficiency range. None of them would be considered super towing vehicles, though DGC's can be equipped for towing much less expensively from the factory.

thegraduate · February 2006

I must be gellin!

(like a felon)

((want some melon?))

hansienna · February 2006

Agree with all of the above posts.
We test drove a 2006 Ody EX-L with all the options and a used 2004 Sienna LE. The Sienna we drove had better performance than either the 2006 Ody or our 2002 T&C LX.
All 3 are good choices (as is the new 2007 Quest...or a current Mazda MPV if you want a smaller, sportier minivan).
DC minivan interior is more spartan than Ody or Sienna but the HVAC and stereo controls are much easier to use with a separate control for each function of the stereo instead of having many functions on the same knob where a person must scroll thru a menu to adjust each.
We bought a new 2006 Sienna LE but there are things on the Sienna that I do not like as well as on the GC SXT.

dennisctc · February 2006

None of them would be considered super towing vehicles, though DGC's can be equipped for towing much less expensively from the factory.

Towing was a major factor in my DCX purchase. For $625 you get HD cooling, tranny and steering, beefed up electrical, and auto leveling rear suspension, and a tow rating of 3800lbs. You do need to buy the actual hitch and mount it though.

socalawd · February 2006

Very good I would have also stated the standard safty VSC/side airbags on the Odyssey and I think the Sieena now has them standard for 2006.

mshooter · February 2006

I'm looking for anyone who has driven a 2005 Honda Odyssey with VTEC Fuel Injection. My 2005 Odyssey EXL-RES has the "Variable Cylinder Management" fuel injection system that is supposed to increase fuel mileage. I have been disappointed with the fuel mileage, as the 1998 Olds Sillouette I previously owned did 3+ mpg better on mileage under the same driving conditions. THis winter, we are getting 20 mpg and last summer, we got 22-23 mpg when we were on the road. I expected better mileage than this, and want to know if that is all I should expect from this vehicle. My van has 25,000 miles on it now, so it is broke in. My honda dealer has no answers and told me it would get better when it was broke in. It hasn't. Does anyone have any info for me? reply at mshooter@myclearwave.net

thegraduate · February 2006

When driven the same way as the EPA you should recieve the same mileage. This means that "on the road", to get 28 mpg you should average no higher than 59 mph, drive at approx 60 degrees F, with no hills, and no A/C running.

hansienna · February 2006

28.1 MPG on a round trip of over 1300 miles with speed control set at 65-66 MPH...sometimes driven up to 80 MPH and on I-15 winding Virgin River Gorge stretch of northern Arizona the speed was closer to 50 MPH.
EPA rating is 18/24 indicating it is NOT hard at all to get EPA rating or better with a DC minivan.

thegraduate · February 2006

It's not hard with a Honda either. I recently got approx 3 mpg over sticker in my Honda when driven 75mph (passing near 85) in the Alabama hills.

marine2 · February 2006

I understand the new version Chrysler/Dodge will have a new six speed transmission, new engine and will have a very different look between the two vans. I also hear it will have a bottle cooler above the glove box and a baby changing table, and roll down rear windows. Just a few of many improvements coming on the new models.

What I don't like about my 2005 Dodge GC is the plain white face speedometer, even if it changes to a dark face when the headlights are turned on. I also miss the pin lights that lit up the controls on the doors and wish it had more color inside. Black and gray is kind of dull. Love the looks on the outside.

gmhellman · February 2006

I inherited a 97 T&C from my Grandparents this past summer. It is a an SX with the cloth interior. Interestingly, it is better than many current american minivan offerings I have test drove. The dual climate control works perfectly, the ride is firm, but responsive and the power of the 3.3 is adequate for the size. The interior is quiet except for a few minor squeaks, but the thing is 9 years old. Only 67,000 miles on it. I have not compared it to any of the foreign competition...our local dealership that carries all of the foreign (Nissan, Honda, Toyota) as well as Dodge is horrible. They were notified by Chrysler/Dodge that they are the worst dealership in the companies history. So, I refuse to deal with them at all. I am interested in the next generation chrysler/dodge vans, since I can drive approx. 20 minutes to the next town and deal with a far superior chrysler dealership. I have noticed that the gas mileage is horrid on this van and am having the fuel, oil and air filters changed as well as greased. I am not sure when the last service was done by my grandparents...they died in their 80's so who knows...Interestinly all major work is documented like a session of congress by my grandfather. He even kept the original bill of sale and letter he received from Chrysler thanking him for his custom ordered minivan.

marine2 · February 2006

Nothing official out on the next generation Chrysler minivans yet. I listed some of the changes I had heard that might show up on the new generation Dodge/Chryslers. I also heard they may rework the stow-n-go seats to come out with an all wheel drive again. But they seem to be pretty hush,hush on it as of now. Sort of wished I had leased mine so the lease ran out when the new ones come out. I usually keep my vehicles for 5-6 years or longer. Unless I need something else. While I'd like to get the new generation minivan, I don't need it. So I'll probably have this one for at least seven years, as that is how long my extended warranty lasts.

dennisctc · February 2006

I've heard the next gen DCX vans will have same engine and tranny as 07 Pacifica - 4.0 V6 with 265hp, 275ft lbs with 6 speed auto. The Pacifica comes out this August and should be very telling for DCX's minivans. I've heard the stow n go seats will be powered, and slide together?

Yeah, love the outside looks of any DCX vans from 96 on. I think the last gen had a nicer interior than my current one.

greener1 · February 2006

follow this link for a preview of the new Chrysler van, watch out Odyssey
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/01/17/spy-shots-2008-chrysler-town-and-country/

hansienna · February 2006

Agree. I think it would be very easy for me to exceed the EPA rating for the Odyssey if driven on a long round trip. I think the real world mileage for the VCM Ody would not be any better than for the LX or EX.

hansienna · February 2006

Clarification: I think the real world mileage for the VCM Ody would not be any better than for the Ody LX or Ody EX (cloth).
I also think I would comparable gas mileage in a 2005 Ody LX or Ody EX (cloth) on a long trip that my 2002 T&C LX gets. (The 2005 T&C LX with 3.3L V6 is EPA rated 19/26 while 2005 Ody LX or EX is rated 19/25.)

dennisctc · February 2006

I've exceeded EPA numbers for my DCX GC SXT at xmas, driving flat and steady at 75mph on Ohio turnpike....27-28mpg, then it dropped to about 24mpg in mountains of PA....so over was right on EPA of 25mpg.

thegraduate · February 2006

That's a pretty bad photoshop in that picture. 300C front+Caliber body+Magnum tail = One mutant of a Chrysler. Watch out Element.

marine2 · February 2006

Not sure where you can see a Caliber body or Magnum tail lights from that picture.

thegraduate · February 2006

Look at the side-profile of a magnum's taillights. They are the exact same (even have the same design within them). The Caliber body is just the general shape (least obvious pictured). I actually think that the Caliber is too tall for it's length, looking like an abbreviated Chevy Minivan.

The Magnum taillights ARE a copy in the pic.

lmipsr · February 2006

Anybody put custom wheels on their odyssey? Thinking of grey/black wheels as my exterior is black.

I know its a minvan but shouldn't we try to make it have more street cred??

kimchi · February 2006

in my opinion, it all depends on how you drive and what type of minivan you want.

chrysler has smoother ride than honda. honda has more stiff shocks so it gives heavy sports car feeling on the corner. toyota has a harsh ride than chrysler and has worse handling than chrysler. i ride toyota on LA highway and I hated it. I was asking if we can just drive 2 cars rather than riding 2006 toyota minivan together.

if you load more than 5 people on T&C, it handles better than honda on the curve. honda gets hard to control and gives more body roll as you load it up.

honda def. has more HP power but once you load your minivan with people, 3.8L chrysler wins. toyota? y do people buy it?

5 speed transmission is better than 4 speeds but chrysler's 4 speed has OVERDRIVE that acts like it has extra gear. so even u have a lesser gear, this overdrive acts well between 3rd and 4th gear and put rpm down (easier for engine).
honda's 5 speed doesnt feel that nice especially 3rd gear.
3rd gear hold rpm more than 2800rpm!!! and shifts to 4rd after it passes 2900rpm. it is almost using half of its engine power (redline is at 6000rpm)!!!! what a waste!!!

personally I recommand chrysler limited because it is a minivan!!!it suppose to be a minivan, not a sports car...if u want a 7 seats sports car, buy wagan.

u can buy limited if u are going to buy honda EX leather...it will be same price with more option such as Infinity speakers & GPS ***

dennisctc · February 2006

It wouldn't be the first time DCX used same taillamp on 2 models. They used the 96-2000 minivan taillamps on dakota pickups, only they inverted them (same P/N etc..).

aaron_t · February 2006

According to insiders at Allpar that is not even close to the new DCX minivans.

greener1 · February 2006

they look alike to me:
http://www.americancarfans.com/spyphotos/6060116.001/6060116.001.mini3L.jpg

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/01/17/spy-shots-2008-chrysler-town-and-country/

hayneldan · February 2006

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/d/88792/d_ams_fotoshow_detail?skip=0

thegraduate · February 2006

This one is better b/c it isn't a photoshop-photochop. If they pull off the 300's looks on the van, it'll be one of the best looking out there. I thought the Pacifica was going to ring my chimes too, but it looks more like a blimp to me (mainly from the rear).

artgpo · February 2006

UG LEE!

cpsdarren · February 2006

"in my opinion, it all depends on how you drive and what type of minivan you want"

I agree. Though they are all good minivans, the minor differences may be important to some people but not to others.

"it suppose to be a minivan, not a sports car...if u want a 7 seats sports car, buy wagan.

u can buy limited if u are going to buy honda EX leather...it will be same price with more option such as Infinity speakers & GPS *** "

To each their own. Some others might prefer some things the Odyssey offers, like an 8th seat, tighter emergency handling, better acceleration and passing power, best in class fuel economy, standard side curtain airbags with sensors for all three rows, standard stability control and good crash ratings from both the NHTSA and IIHS. You can always add your own aftermarket stereo speakers and GPS unit for a moderate cost. It's a lot more difficult and expensive to add these other things IMO... To me, the Stow and Go, lower up-front pricing and some of the luxury creature comforts are the standout features of the current DC vans.

Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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