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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    pat, I think gas is cheaper everywhere else besides California & NY (a close 2nd).

    merc1, I've always loved the stunning good looks of the CLK 430 especially with those 5 spoke AMG wheels. My Mom had a '98 CLK 320 Black/Black (with the sort of cheesy looking wheels that looked good on the black car). My Dad saw the car featured in Autoweek in August of '97 and ran down the the dealership the next day (a Saturday after work) to place his deposit. He's not that type at all, but was just in awe over the car's looks and had to have one.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Needless to say I've been a fan of the CLK430 too!! I still think the previous generation looks better than the current car, but of course the current CLK350, CLK550 and CLK63 AMG are vastly improved in all other areas.

    There is no manual option for any current model CLK for the U.S. market.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    A CLK320 with a manual? What year was that? I don't remember the W208 ever being offered with a manual, at least in the U.S.

    M
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Actually the first 1998 CLK W208 was based on the 1994 C-Class too, the CLK has always been based on the C. The last E-Class-based coupes were the 1988-1995 300CE/E320 Coupes

    k…maybe it was the suspension components…thought there was some connection to the E.

    Wikipedia says the “unique platform borrows from both the C and E"...Not sure what that specifically means.

    I suppose it doesn’t really matter; any CLK is tops in my book
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I believe that you are correct, the CLK was never offered here in North America with a manual transmission, regardless of engine size. My bet is that plekto is thinking of an SLK, which was initially launched with a slushbox only, however, after nearly getting myself fired from MB-USA for my disparaging comments about the lack of a manual gearbox, the folks in Montvale did ultimately decide to put a third pedal in that car, as it should have been from the very beginning. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I'm with merc on this, I am almost certain that the CLK never came with a manual transmission.

    I did drive the SLK 320 6-speed in my sports car shopping period of mid 2005. Are you sure thats not what your co-worker has?

    P.S. "Quick as a Porsche" is a pretty broad statment. The base Boxster has a tough time beating 6 seconds in a 0-60 run, the 911S has been times as low as 3.9. Unfortunately, that SLK320 6-speed I drove was closer to the base Boxster. And the SLK55 forced you back to the automatic transmission.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    He-he. Beat'cha by a couple of seconds. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "however, after nearly getting myself fired from MB-USA for my disparaging comments about the lack of a manual gearbox, the folks in Montvale did ultimately decide to put a third pedal in that car, as it should have been from the very beginning".

    Where have I been that I didn't know you worked for MB-USA? :confuse: ;)

    O.K. Mr. Renegade, here's my wish list: 6-speed manuals in the following please: SLK55, SL550/55/65, E63, E320 Bluetec. I'd like to name more, but I'm figuring you'll be on the unemployment line long before you get through the above. Actually, make the Bluetec first, as a "sport" version 6-speed would be the most interesting MB I'd consider buying in the near future (so I can keep my 911).

    P.S. I concede you beat me by a couple of seconds, but don't extrapolate that to mean an automatic is faster than a manual! ;)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Hmmm, I thought everybody around here knew that I used to work for MB-USA. :blush:

    Maybe you missed the following post from nearly two years ago. ;-)

    shipo, "Mercedes-Benz E-Class Sedans" #6085, 3 Feb 2005 2:09 pm

    As you can see, when I said "...after nearly getting myself fired...", what I really should have said is "...after nearly getting myself fired on the spot...", my stay of execution only lasted about three months. The folks in Stuttgart wanted me to stay on, on their payroll, however, two months after the SLK incident, my wife gave birth to our second child and there was just no way I could spend the next several years flying back and forth to Germany. Geez, if they'd offered me that gig when I was single, I'd have been all over it like shine on a polyester leisure suit. :P

    Best Regards.
    Shipo
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Shipo,

    That's a great story. And worth re-posting in the "Future of the Manual Transmission" forum.

    I too wonder in other areas whether it's "conventional wisdon" or just plain arrogance that perpetuates some bad business decisions. One could conclude today that, of course, Mercedes' buyers want automatics, because anyone who wants a stick has self selected out of their customer pool. But, if I'm not mistaken, the 3-series crushes the C class in sales and the M5 beats the E55 in resale value.

    A friend of mine bought one of the very first E-classes around 1988 and ordered it with a manual. The dealer tried to forewarn him about resale. He responded that he'll just have to take it to a BMW dealer when he was ready to trade, down the road. :P

    Take care. ;)
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    Don't forget that the C230 & C350 are available with a manual six-speed. I didn't realize it myself until ~a year ago, when it was pointed out & later verified (by me).

    There are other reasons the 3 series moves more vehicles than the C class, however. It's certainly reflected in my short list for my next car -- the 3 is on top & the C is at 3 or 4, depending on my mood that day.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    Isn't gas cheaper than California everywhere, at least in the States? ;)

    Hmmm... what's the price in hawaii? I would think, unless they have a well and processing plant on the island, it SHOULD be quite expensive, no?

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Quite expensive, yes. Cheapest price in HI is $2.79 and highest price is $3.15 per Gal.

    Regards,
    OW
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    That is a tad higher than Calif, but in the Bay Area we have the largest refinery west of the Mississippi, and we still have the highest gas prices in the state. :cry:
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    You are right, the car may indeed be more fun, and more sports car like with a manual transmission. And they are right, people do not drive sticks much in USA, so most all the sales would be in automatics. And I am sure it is a fun car to drive with the automatic. Rack and pinion steering would have helped. They offer the CTS with a stick, yet I have yet to see one on the lot. And if you bought one, it would be hard to resell. I have a stick PT right now, and I bet I take a lickin' for choosing that. The gas mileage is better, but most people do not want a stick or can not master the manual tranny.

    They had a waiting list for buyers of the SLK, so they made the right choice in the package, wouldn't you say? That is from a dollar stand point. One problem is going to be bad press, with only an automatic. The test drivers love to point out cars with an automatic only as being one which is not a true sports car. So what? I bet more women than men bought them, and that 90% of all buyers of a Mercedes would expect an automatic. Now a Miata is a different breed. Those are more like an MG class of car where the buyer expects to see the stick in there. Do they sell many BMW3 cars with a stick?
    -Loren
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Do they sell many BMW3 cars with a stick?
    -Loren


    Yes. I know very few BMW 3 owners with an automatic actually.
  • jtlajtla Member Posts: 388
    Do they sell many BMW3 cars with a stick?
    -Loren


    I could find very few 3-series with manual tranny in my recent visits to SoCal BMW dealers. The ratio is like 2 in 100. Some dealers don't even have manual in stock for test drive. One can say that all the 3ers with stick are sold, but the reality is that the majority of buyers want automatic. With their few stick-shifts in stock, for those manual tranny buyers the chance of getting the color/options they want is slim to none. Therefore, they end up special ordering them, which is what I will do.
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    in the Bay Area we have the largest refinery west of the Mississippi

    I'm surprised Pelosi hasn't shut that thing down.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    LOL, not in her district :P
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Manuals are ordered for the most part. The stealerships stock the most expensive, loaded up models on dealer lots and they always try to talk you out of ordering a manual. To get a 3 with a few normal features you're going to order.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Do they sell many BMW3 cars with a stick?

    Something like 30% of all 3er sold are with MT. Which is incredible in the US of course.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Must be special ordered.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Trust me, the C,CLK and SLK all use the same chassis. The original CLK320's price was like 20K less than the last E-Class based Coupe, the E320/300CE. The 300CE was a 55K car in 1988!

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well they've learned their lesson it seems because the 2nd generation SLK, the SLK350 to be exact came with a manual right out the gate.

    I think the SLK55, upcoming C63 and possibly the CLK63 should have a manual or some type of dual-clutch gearbox, but I seriously doubt there is any market for manual in a SL or E-Class, IMO.

    M
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I was actually stunned when I heard that the C-Class and SLK were going to be offered with a manual gearbox. Of course, even though they ultimately heeded my advice, they didn't hunt me down and offer me another consulting gig. :P

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,253
    of course, some corporate guy 'proposed' it and got promoted to vp. ;)
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Wouldn't be at all surprised. ;-)
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I suspect that the number of peole who drive manuals or wish to is the same as it was in the 60s and 70s - about 25-30%. But after decades of a 95/5% or worse availability by the auto makers - we get skeweed results.

    For instance, Honda ships sometihng like a 80/20 split for manual Fits in the U.S. and guess which ones are always unobtainium due to insane waiting lists? Right - the manual.

    Same with Mercedes - the local dealer, one of the largest in California, said that anything manual is gone in 48 hours - usually for full MSRP with no haggling.

    So its not surprizing that they are finally listening. That 20-30% that realy want one if they can find one - that's more cars than Mercedes can manage to even sell - so it's good for them to offer it. Not a single 2006 Mercedes or Cadillac CTS was left in California 8-10 weeks after the 2007s came in. All gobbled up. :)
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Could it be FWD doesn't feel as good as RWD with a stick? Just a thought.

    I just don't see sticks much anywhere at all. One time at the Nissan dealer, I asked to see a stick, and they had not a single one. Plenty and I mean plenty of cars in stock, but all were automatics.

    I have never owned a car with a paddle shifter. I could see that on some country roads or going downhill, it may be better to shift the auto, but like I said, never owned one. To me the shifting is better with a RWD car. And I feel more in control going downhill with a RWD car.
    -Loren
  • jtlajtla Member Posts: 388
    I suspect that the number of peole who drive manuals or wish to is the same as it was in the 60s and 70s - about 25-30%. But after decades of a 95/5% or worse availability by the auto makers - we get skeweed results.

    Good point. I think it is sort of "chicken and egg". Was it because less manuals were available so people were "forced" to buy automatics? Or, was it because less people were buying manuals so few were stocked by dealers?

    Back in 1987 when I purchased my first new car, I wanted a Toyota Celica with stick, but none available. Living in LA, I could not survive without a ride (old car was totaled). I settled for an automatic. 20 years later, manuals have become an "endangered species", especially in the luxury or near-luxury segment. :(
  • nkeennkeen Member Posts: 313
    The opposite in the UK and Europe -- not many automatics. Too expensive, rob performance on a lower powered car and they hurt mileage -- a consideration at $7/gallon. Also, in the UK, you can't drive a manual unless you've passed your driving test in one.
  • simevesimeve Member Posts: 6
    Just a question for you guys. Given that the IS, G and 3 series now deliver 300hp plus lots of options for up to 50k (except for the bmw), is it possible that the landscape has changed and one no longer has to look at the Porsche for perfomance. I noted that the 911 Carrera, for example, has an MSRP of 72k, this is the base price with no options at all and has 325hp, you can get the G and the IS fully loaded for 20k less. Do you guys see a trend goinng forward that Porsche could be in trouble here. What are your thoughts or am I being too optimistic
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    This is a classic case of having to look beyond the "numbers" or "stats".

    No sedan from any one of those makes can come close to the sheer thrill of driving a 911 nor can they match it in performance. Also, if you're going to throw in some track time the Porsche will beat those sedans silly.

    Marketwise very few people looking at a 911 are going to "settle" for a mere sedan, especially an entry-level one, no matter how brilliant they are (335i). It is really a joke to compare a Lexus of any kind to a Porsche. Infiniti won't get the GT-R and the G35 coupe is about as close to a 911 as you can get from Infiniti, and that ain't close at all.

    A BMW M3...uh...somewhat of a contest, but still no enough of one for Porsche to be concerned. This will change slightly when the new M3 arrives, but just as it does the 2008 911 is due to arrive with a new DSG-style tranny and an upped hp rating of 380hp standard.

    In short, yes you're being way too optimistic, Porsche has absolutely, categorically nothing to worry about from any ELLPS.

    M
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Bravo merc1. Well said!

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    is it possible that the landscape has changed and one no longer has to look at the Porsche for perfomance.

    I'll let habitat1 to handle this one...

    :)
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "This is a classic case of having to look beyond the "numbers" or "stats".

    Well said merc1.

    If I could elaborate, the main reason why these sedans can never compare to a 911 is primarily because they weigh 500 lbs more and have more than 1 foot longer wheelbase.

    The 911 is a go-cart compared to these 4-door leviathans.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    If I could elaborate, the main reason why these sedans can never compare to a 911 is primarily because they weigh 500 lbs more and have more than 1 foot longer wheelbase.

    Correct. I guess I should have said that you have to look deeper into the numbers or at different stats other than hp. :)

    M
  • simevesimeve Member Posts: 6
    Am glad I generated a response and thanks for your comments, the funny thing though is I am not convinced. This is why:
    This is a classic case of having to look beyond the "numbers" or "stats".
    In fact, I wasnt just looking at the stats, was also talking about other gadgets that come with the car & pricing. I believe there is more to a car than HP anyway and I would be suprised if the Porsche offers more gadgets than the ELLPS. I know more about Lexus than the other brands so I will use Lexus as an example.
    It is really a joke to compare a Lexus of any kind to a Porsche
    Lexus has the IS F with 400hp and the LF-A with 500hp. Very comparable IMHO.
    You will note that I had not mentioned the other Porsche models with less HP than the 911. All these other models come with less HP than the ELLPS I had mentioned. If you think back, the 1985 911 had 218hp, way more than the ELLPS at the time. As a comparison, 10 years later,the 1994 M3 had 240HP. Now, one can be forgiven for going with a less expensive ELLPS with more or comparable HP and more features/gadgets although lacking the "sheer thrill of driving a 911".
    I am not trying to say the Porsche is now in the same league as the ELLPS, but at this rate there are losing the competitive edge they had 10-20 yrs ago.
    If one buys it for status symbol, well thats another story
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249

    Lexus has the IS F with 400hp and the LF-A with 500hp. Very comparable IMHO.


    Power does not equal comparable. The LF, like other Lexus products will undoubtedly be a joke aimed at the spare-tire set of America that made Lexus popular - reliable Buicks.


    I am not trying to say the Porsche is now in the same league as the ELLPS, but at this rate there are losing the competitive edge they had 10-20 yrs ago.


    Power without a great chassis is just wasted. If one cannot feel the gulf between a Porsche and a Lexus, then perhaps the Lexus is the better car.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    In fact, I wasnt just looking at the stats, was also talking about other gadgets that come with the car & pricing. I believe there is more to a car than HP anyway and I would be suprised if the Porsche offers more gadgets than the ELLPS. I know more about Lexus than the other brands so I will use Lexus as an example.

    Then apparently you don't know much about Porsche. People don't buy Porsches for their gadgets. The average 911 buyer couldn't care less what a Lexus has. A Lexus is a luxury car, a Porsche is as sports car to put it simply. Other than them both being "cars" there is literally no comparision between the two for what they both do best. No one looking at a Porsche cares whether or not a Lexus has more gadgets than a Porsche.

    Lexus has the IS F with 400hp and the LF-A with 500hp.

    The LF-A might be a Porsche competitor, but the jury is still out on that one since the car is merely a concept at this point. The IS-F is a sedan and no amount of power is going to make a competitor to a Porsche.

    I am not trying to say the Porsche is now in the same league as the ELLPS, but at this rate there are losing the competitive edge they had 10-20 yrs ago.

    You've got it bass-ackwards. Porsche never was an ELLPS. Porsche has never made a sedan in the first place. Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Infiniti....their ELLPS models aren't competitors to a Porsche. Porsche has never competed with any ELLPS.

    If you're going to look and hp and gadgets as the criteria for competition to the ELLPS category I'll get a Corvette Z06 and smoke any and everything in the ELLPS segment. What relevance that would be to the ELLPS segment is beyond me though.

    M
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I guess the Z06 would qualify if you count the hatch and hood as "doors".
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I know more about Lexus than the other brands so I will use Lexus as an example.

    Oh great, you have used the worst possible case (Lexus) in the ELLSP to compare with a Porsche.

    Now let the Lexus bash parade begin...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    BMW 3-series: The undisputed champion among sports sedans

    If a car takes top honors in three respected reviews, it is accepted that it's a good car. If it wins five top honors, it's a great car. If a vehicle comes away with seven top ranks, however, it has to be a class leader. The BMW 3-series (*est. $30,900 to $38,500) , which has been redesigned for the 2006 model year, sets a new high-bar, according to nearly every major car review source. MotorWeek calls the BMW 3-series "the last word in affordable sporting sedans," while Automobile Magazine says that "BMW has produced a car that is the gold standard for its class, something that all other automakers feel they have to measure up to." A number of reviews ranked the BMW 3-series the best car of the year including Car and Driver, Forbes, AutoWeek, Automobile Magazine, MotorWeek and Money Magazine.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    so?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    So forget the rest.
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    My $$ says otherwise :P
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Dollars are only a perception and a limiter you put on a given transaction.
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    Spelling can also be a matter of perception and can be a limit on a given situation as well e.g. "woed"
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Fixed...thanks!
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    You definitely win the prize for the biggest attempted "apples vs. bananas" comparison here. ;)

    As a current owner of a Porsche (911S Cab) and an ELLPS (Acura TL 6-speed), IMO there is more "overlap" in Janet Jackson's past super bowl costume than there is in these two cars. And that's after the "malfunction".

    You can put all of the horsepower and gadgets in the world in an ELLPS and it's not going to give you the tight handling, visceral feel and pure fun of driving a real sports car. If anything, the fact that the 911 has a mini rear seat and, thanks to PASM and other suspension advancements doesn't jar your fillings loose like the 1985 model, means that it steals miles that otherwise would have gone to the TL (3 times as many in the last 16 months). But make no mistake, they still are miles apart in the automotive/driving spectrum.

    I would guess that the vast majority of Porsche buyers already have at least an ELLPS, if not an LPS, in their garage. Some with more horsepower than their Porsche. The fact that performance has improved over the years in the ELLPS segment is great. But as best I can tell, very few perspective Porsche buyers would ever say, "thank goodness for a 500 hp Lexus, now I no longer want a 911".

    And actually, this is my second time around this block. I previously owned a Nissan Maxima SE 5-speed and a Honda S2000. If Porsche and Lexus sound too snooty for you, replace the above comparisons with the Nissan and Honda. Same conclusion.
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