Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

circlew · February 2007

You have me in stiches!!!

ggesq · February 2007

I didn't see "optional 6 speed manual tranny" in your description of the MKZ. Did you miss that or....wait, it doesn't come with one :surprise:

I guess your back to blatantly disregarding the hosts request to keep the MKZ out of here huh?

blueguydotcom · February 2007

Really, the CTS, Lincoln, etc are punchlines for many of us. They're not considered for a variety of reasons. So why not create a forum that allows for pseudo performance sedans like the MKZ?

rockylee · February 2007

Why create a whole seperate one when this one is so well established. There isn't a large enough crowd for 2.

Just because you hate american cars and the CTS will challenge the best from Europe and Japan doesn't mean it's a pseudo-performance car. The MKZ is just as quick as a Acura TL, and you want the MKZ banned and the TL to stay ? I will say one thing good about you that you don't try to hide your bias.

I'm following the rules given to me today. Why don't you create another forum where you can specifically list the cars you want to talk about. You don't have to click on the CTS or MKZ icon either.

Rocky

plekto · February 2007

You have to be kidding. "entry-level" is exactly that - everything from 25-35K after discounts that qualifies as even a little bit of luxury and a decent amount of "sportiness" above a Buick/Camry/etc commuterbox.

If you are talking about mainstream luxury performance cars(note the lack of "entry-level", then you've come to the wrong discussion. Complaining that the CTS and MKZ don't "fit" - they plainly do. Welcome to the bottom-end/entry-level of luxury performance cars.

IIRC, based upon the original posting, this comes down to:
- 25-35K after rebates - definately not $40K+, that's the next level)
- has more luxury than an Accord/Camry/Pontiac/etc.
- has a sporty suspension and good handling. Well, better than a Buick or Camry in any case.
- manual transmission is an option.
- No convertibles. 4 doos preferred - 2 okay if it's like the old 2-door Volvo sedans(it's the exact same car as a sedan, just with two doors instead of 4). No hatchbacks, crossovers, or simmilar, of course.

Pretty much anything else is okay. Note the utter lack of FWD/RWD/AWD, size(within reason - a DTS isn't going to really work - lol), or brand. Traction control, stability control, navigation, alloy wheels, leather... also not on the list. Nice, but optional.

A base 3 series is acceptable, for instance - the upper-end 3 probably not, though - it's just too expensive for a first time buyer in this segment to usually buy. OTOH, if BMW is running a killer financing program that get the upper-end 3 series down around the same payments as $35K...

Btw, yes, the MKZ technically fits here. It's not what most of use would LIKE to see from Ford as an effort, but it passes the required minimums.

pat · February 2007

that the opening post of this discussion was made five years ago. Inflation over that period of time should increase the pricepoint that was defined then, it seems to me.

Also remember that just because a car is included here, you don't have to talk about it if you don't want to, and you don't have to respond to posts that do.

qbrozen · February 2007

I didn't see "optional 6 speed manual tranny" in your description of the MKZ. Did you miss that or....wait, it doesn't come with one :surprise:

sorry, Rock, but I have to agree here.

no manual gear selection = no sport (and no, the selectable slushboxes that they try to pass off as sporty these days don't qualify either)

Unfortunately, the standard TL no longer has a manual, but since the Type S is still well under $40k, I think it is still valid.

anyway, discuss what you will. my opinion is what it is.

circlew · February 2007

We have room here for all opinions. Just do not get offended.

I owned a Lincoln LS and it was great but lacking is some key performance areas. Why did Lincoln "Kill IT"? Because the platform was too old, probably. I assume the MKZ is the answer.

All I can tell you is I can feel the development in this BMW unlike any other nameplate I owned from GM/Ford/DCX.

Look at it like this: Camaro - Killed - Resurrected
Firebird - Killed, Grand Prix - Never developed - Killed, maybe resurrected? Ford Taurus - (considered the SHO but abysmal quality track record). - Killed - Resurrected as 500?

There is no lifeline to truly evolve each model and keep loyalty! How can you keep brand loyalty when you are so inconsistent?

The Corvette and Mustang are the only evolved nameplates in the US!!!!!!! Muhahahahaha! Just kidding.

Challenger - Killed - Resurrected for Shipo??

Regards,
OW

plekto · February 2007

Ah - thought the MKZ had stick. Sigh. That item is and was never negitiable. Even if its a special-order option, it has to be there.

You'll note that the Saabs and Volvos pretty much can come with stick, though, so many of them would qualify. A nice step above your typical car.

The Grand Prix with the V8 certainly has the power and suspension to qualify, but it's eerily like the RX-8. It's a blast to drive, but utterly fails the "luxury" part. It's most like a entry-level-plain-as-vanilla-sports-sedan. All function and nothing nice about it.

Nothing anout it where you grin a bit to yourself knowing you have a better car than most people AND one that you could feel okay with having a vallet park it.

GM - other than the CTS, isn't doing very well here. Few manuals, and either it's de-contented to the point of rental-fleet starkness(and leather seats alone don't fix this - something Mercedes should note with its C-Class lately), or it has suspension that's as soft as a NERF toy.

I think Top Gear(U.K. auto show) said it best.
"The Americans just don't seem to get "luxury". Their idea of it is to just make it bigger."

kdshapiro · February 2007

Gee whiz - I meant the CTS-V.

rockylee · February 2007

That my friends is a Factory Tuned Performance Oriented car. So is the Acura TL Type-S "Well kinda"

The Grand Prix certainly isn't a ELLPS. However if the new G8 had a badge other than a Pontiac it would be a ELLPS, because it's interior is just as good as if not better than the new Mercedes C-class which will be considered a ELLPS.

Rocky

kdshapiro · February 2007

"However if the new G8 had a badge other than a Pontiac it would be a ELLPS"

Disagree. Pontiac does not produce luxury vehicles.

You know, you could fire up your own thread and include whatever vehicles you want in that discussion. Almost every manufacturer has an option for leather, having a leather option with some hp behind it doesn't make that vehicle an ELLPS.

rockylee · February 2007

Disagree. Pontiac does not produce luxury vehicles.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2007/02/g8_interior.html

http://www.caranddriver.com/previews/12337/2008-mercedes-benz-c-class.html (click photo's)

Well IMHO I would have to give the luxury nod to the Pontiac G8 and it's what $15-20K cheaper and offers you world class performance. I agree the badge is the only thing it's missing from making it a ELLPS. I guess if you care more about product than the badge the choice is clearly easy between these two. :shades:

You know, you could fire up your own thread and include whatever vehicles you want in that discussion

Yeah I could but why ? I enjoy this one way to much. You could also do the same.

Almost every manufacturer has an option for leather, having a leather option with some hp behind it doesn't make that vehicle an ELLPS.

Well that is true and I agree it takes more than just leather and power to be a ELLPS. I often think some get to caught up with badges instead of letting the product do the talking. I do see good product coming from non traditional luxury brands giving the traditonal luxury brands fits and my links from above is just one example.

Rocky

qbrozen · February 2007

Disagree. Pontiac does not produce luxury vehicles.

ummmm... i thought that was his point. "If it had a badge OTHER than pontiac" ...

rockylee · February 2007

qbrozen,

I appreciate the kindness of you pointing that out.

Rocky

ggesq · February 2007

"Ah - thought the MKZ had stick. Sigh. That item is and was never negitiable. Even if its a special-order option, it has to be there."

Wanna know what else it doesn't have insofar as it relates to "transmissions?" It doesn't have a "manumatic". Even the ES 350 has one :surprise:

frisconick · February 2007

Rocky, I think Pontiac makes some of the most attractive American cars. I am sort of sorry I didn't check them out before I bought my TL. In fact, I think deep down that part of the reason I bought the TL was because it didn't have the bmw "badge" :P

plekto · February 2007

It all goes back to the original sport sedans, the original BMW 2002 and 3 series, more than 30 years ago(almost 30 for the 3 series).

It must be built to be luxurious, smaller than a Buick/midsize car if possible(though modern technology has enabled larger cars to qualify, smaller and lighter is always preferred), handle well, and have a manual gearbox.

The IS350 becomes just another luxury sedan. And it costs a lot more than $40K by the time you get it out the door.

CarsDirect Price: $37,140
- this is a stripped, no options base model IS350. It's clearly moved itself out of this segment. You'll never, ever find one, though, without at least 2-3 option packages, so $40K is closer to a realistic price.

kdshapiro · February 2007

ummmm... i thought that was his point. "If it had a badge OTHER than pontiac" ...

Badge like what? Lexus? The interior photos shows an ugly interior. IMHO.

qbrozen · February 2007

does it matter? his point was simply that pontiac is not a luxury brand. he admitted that in his original post. not everything has to be a war.

kdshapiro · February 2007

No. He's saying the interior is better than the Mercedes C. I disagree. And yes, I mis-read the point about the GP not being an ELLPS. But I don't think the interior is any great shakes.

qbrozen · February 2007

that's fine. you guys can argue about the interior all you want.

blueguydotcom · February 2007

Yeah, what a great deal. A 300C sized car with an underpowered V8 and low gas mileage. Oh, gimme more.

qbrozen · February 2007

alright ... we really shouldn't be discussing it here ... but 362 hp is underpowered??? I guess the 300C is "grossly underpowered"??? At least the G8 will supposedly come with a stick.

rockylee · February 2007

LOL, I'd still to this day buy the TL over everything Pontiac currently offers and that's coming from a GM guy.

The G8, isn't a ELLPS because of it's badge. If you put a different emblem like a luxury nameplate badge on it then I think it has enough credibility on interior/exterior + gadgets to be a ELLPS. The G8, has the highest quality interior to ever be installed in a Pontiac car. This is all good news from GM, because it raises the bar another step higher for the comapany. While many will argue the Mercedes, has more luxury which may be true a unbiased person would be blinde to not appreciate the G8's fit and finish for a car starting out at around $26K and will top out around $33K. I do think some ELLPS buyers will cross shop the G8 because it offers a lot of value. The 2008' Cadillac CTS is a ELLPS no matter how you slice. I should be shocked that a few won't acknowledge it as such but deep down I'm not a bit surprised. :surprise:

Rocky

rockylee · February 2007

The interior color choice ruins it a bit. BTW- That isn't production color as it's been noted on this and other sites. I respectfully disagree with your position on G8's interior. The Mercedes C class was surprisingly plain. I guess I've always admired Mercedes interiors and the plainess caught me off guard for a car costig that kind of money is all.

Rocky

blueguydotcom · February 2007

Take a look at the power to weight and the actual performance. Considering the car has a V8, I found the numbers listed rather underwhelming.

rockylee · February 2007

Since when was 362 hp. on regular gas underpowered ?????

That is 62 more horsepower than your beloved BMW 335i bluedotguy. I will acknowledge the 335i from a size and weight standpoint will out run the G8 GT but once the Holden Commodore HSV/GXP version arrives that will all change as Motor Trend reported a 502 hp. 7.0 LS-7 V8 is in the works.

I suppose that also will be considered underpowered as well. :confuse:

Rocky

blueguydotcom · February 2007

362 out of a V8 = underwhelmed. Considering the car's behemoth size, it's not gonna be an entry lux car. It's more of a Maxima with a V8.

No matter how much power, it's just too darn big too.

pat · February 2007

We're all in agreement the G8 doesn't belong here, so let's leave it out!

joe131 · February 2007

Yep, that's him.

frisconick · February 2007

I was surprised how big the TL is, it just does not look that big. Plust it's a heavey car too. :surprise:

rockylee · February 2007

I don't think the TL, is all that heavy. It was pretty nimble for me.

Rocky

joe131 · February 2007

slow
porky
cramped
expensive

joe131 · February 2007

Nope. Wrong criteria.

Brand is all important.
A manual transmission is not at all important to make the cut.

rockylee · February 2007

0-60 in 6.6 is slow ? well maybe........

Yeah it might be porky but it's one of the safest cars you can own. Cramped when compared to a 335i or IS 350 ? It's like a limo in size.

It only gets expensive when you add every option including AWD. It's still is less than a fully loaded 335i or IS 350.

Rocky

blueguydotcom · February 2007

Yes, 6.6 seconds is slow - even generic compacts like the GTI are faster than that. This is 2007, not 2002. Anything over 5.5 seconds seems a little last generation. We've got the G35, IS350 and 335i pulling near to sub 5 seconds 60 sprints.

rockylee · February 2007

Okay, fair enough.......

Rocky

plekto · February 2007

We've got the G35, IS350 and 335i pulling near to sub 5 seconds 60 sprints

Yet all three of those aren't entry-level - they belong in the regular or mainstream luxury performance car category - based upon price alone if nothing else.

blueguydotcom · February 2007

How do you figure? average selling price of a car in 2007 is 30k so therefore isn't 40k or so entry level luxury?

pat · February 2007

That was my point about the defining first post being five years old. I agree with you and I believe at this point going beyond $40k to some degree is warranted.

In any case, those vehicles are definitely staples of this discussion.

plekto · February 2007

The optimal price-point for an *entry-level* car like this should be exactly the average selling price, or $30K.

- The IS 350? No stickshift. Gone. If Lexus added manual back for 2008, which given the upcoming CTS, they might, I'd gladly welcome it back. There's ZERO point in having 300HP in a smaller car like this and castrating it with a less than great automatic.

- The G35 sport has manual and is right at $33K or so. It fits this discussion. It's also nicely equipped as is - you don't need $6K in options to make it a nice car.
Cars Direct Target Price: $32,950

- The 335i isn't BMWs entry-level offering in this category, so it fails based upon that criteria.
CarsDirect Price: $38,560 - this is for one with vinyl seats and not even the upgraded suspension that you'd want - no - NEED to make it stand out from the competition.

The focus needs to be on "least expensive luxury performance sedans" - and 40K+ isn't being frugal - or sometihng that an average first-time buyer in this segment really wants to pay.

pat · February 2007

Plekto, those cars are part of this discussion and that is not going to change. If you don't want to talk about them, that's fine, just ignore them.

kdshapiro · February 2007

easily top out over $40 without trying. Until recently the bottom of the line Infiniti had cloth. The Germans allow you to option out the vehicle as you want. The 3 series is the bottom of the line of BMWs lineup. Add one option to the Lexus and the price jumps by $7K. This forum is not the frugal shopping section of Edmunds.

A first time buyer who wants a more sporty 2007 vehicle than a family sedan but doesn't want to pay over $30K out the door is out of luck in this segment.

plekto · February 2007

The original post itself stipulated that a manual transmission as non-negotiable and it still is. Lexus needs to bring a manual option back, because to people who dominate this segment, it's not even close to the real thing without it.

As for the 335i, the 330 is BMW's entry-level option according to them. If you start letting in upper-level offerings of simmilar cars, well, then we might as well put the CTS-V or the S60R in as well...

P.S. while $30K may be hard to do, 30K or so for a base price before options is very much the goal of many buyers. ie - they'll squeeze up to 35K or so, but take the 335i - you can easily bloat it up to 45K or more, which is just not in the same price-range.

pat · February 2007

The topic has been well-defined for quite some time. I guess there was a point where posters lost sight of the stick being a requirement. While I personally prefer a stick as do many here, there is some logic in letting it go as an absolute requirement as manual trannies become harder to find and as fewer and fewer folks (unfortunately) demand it.

The CTS-V and S60R are clearly overkill for this particular conversation.

I think it would be a good thing if we talked about the cars listed at the top of this page and stop worrying about what should or should not be included in this discussion that has done just fine for a very long time within its defined, yet reasonably elastic given what has changed over time, parameters.

It would be great if anyone who wants to change the topic goes ahead and fires up another. We can never have too many places to debate these vehicles, eh?

Edit (in response to your edit): As I've said, a five year old post defining the pricepoint needs to be taken with several inflated grains of salt. There is no reason to hold on to a five year old $40k ceiling.

kdshapiro · February 2007

all of the cars only the A4 might allow you get out the door for $30K. Face it, this is a speciality segment, prices are not like the midsize family sedan segment.

Why don't you start your own discussion with the makes, models and price of your choice? This way you can exclude the upper echelon of the bottom rung.

plekto · February 2007

I don't see why $40K isn't just as fair a ceiling as it used to be. It keeps you firmly in "entry-level" territory and is exactly one notch above the typical spongy boxes/rental fleet fodder.

The G35 sedan, the CTS, the S60, and 330i, and a slew of others aren't even $35K, and are fine examples of this type of car. A couple of them, like the CTS, start at under $30K. 40K is still more than enough to buy a few options and get it out the door, IMO.

Most people here want to raise that limit for one and only one reason, the 335i. But that's as unfair as the IS350 is, because the IS250 is clearly what Lexus is offering as their entry-level sports sedan.

And the 330i isn't a half-bad car, either, make no mistake about it. It runs neck and neck with many of the others.

kdshapiro · February 2007

With options almost every vehicle goes above $40K, so you are in favor of eliminating the vehicle if it can be optioned out over $40K? Or are you just trying to twist the argument a bit. The base price of every vehicle listed is below $40K and can be optioned to over $40K.

Please stop talking about the 330 you cannot buy a 2007 330 sedan or coupe. The 335i leaves 'em in the dust.

imidazol97 · February 2007

I read the date on Post #1 when I copied the beginning criteria to the recent post and it didn't register about cost increase. I should have realized it has changed.

I used an inflation calculator and the $30000 and $40000 went to $33333 and $45000 approx. That's about 2% per year.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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