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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    boy some were ripping the CTS apart from roof to rim.

    Feel free to do the same to the 3er, IS350, G35 and TL if you have reasons, personal experiences, or facts to back it up. This is exactly what this forum's for, giving people a place to share their like and dislike of all the ELLPS out there, CTS included.
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    Feel free to do the same to the 3er, IS350, G35 and TL

    Seems to me when you rip a car a new one your post usually gets removed.
  • jamesspotjamesspot Member Posts: 57
    To me, the 3 series is the Goldilock's choice. I'm 6'5" and 200 lbs. I chose perhaps the only E46 ZHP sedan sold without a sunroof just for that reason. I also never use the sun visors.

    But, for me, the E46 is like slipping into my favorite jeans - it fits snug but just right. There are bigger cars, but they don't handle as well and a smaller car wouldn't be as practical.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Sigh...don't remind me of my dearly departed ZHP. :(
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Feel free to do the same to the 3er, IS350, G35 and TL if you have reasons, personal experiences, or facts to back it up.

    I have in the past but I'd prefer to keep the lid on that can of worms as I get surrounded and then attacked by the Bimmer boys. :P

    Rocky
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Interesting

    I'm 6'1" 210lbs. I tried my best to overcome the confined feel of the 2006 3's cockpit, but it nagged me relentlessly.

    The G35 was the same. Both cars my left knee rode the arm rest on the door. The cars were just too small.

    I sat in the TL and felt like I wasn't trying to wear a pair of jeans from 5 years ago. The car performed nicely. Sure its FWD offers a different kind of feel to your drive, but weighed against the shoehorned-in feel of the 3 or G35 I couldn't pass on it.

    And I so wanted the BMW.
  • nkeennkeen Member Posts: 313
    I had a TL and moved to the 325i with ZSP. The TL was a comfortable car, while not on a par with a big Volvo, for instance. But it had its ergonomic nuisances -- a key fob that dangled in my knees relentlessly (why, oh why do the press all grumble about the starter button?), handbrake on the wrong side of the transmission tunnel, km readings on speedo impossible to read. The biggest problems that I have with the BMW are the narrowness of the sports seats at the base of my back, side bolsters that can sometimes feel as though they are jabbing into my ribs, and the tendency of the seat cushion to feel like a well after a long drive. On the other hand, the seat does a good job of holding me in place when I toss the car around. Also, I don't get the rotor ache in my right shoulder that the TL and other cars give me. It's not the fashion, but I do wish the US market E90 were available with cloth. I'm 50, 6'00", 185lbs, and by no means perfectly proportioned (long torso, so headroom's a problem in many cars with sunroofs, but not in the Bimmer).
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Um, no. When you do something similar to another poster is when that happens. ;)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yes, respect he posters but for cars, Open Season at all times!

    Predominately the CTS, IMO.

    Regards,
    OW

    P.S. - When it reaches World Class Build/Performance levels, it will gain respect.
  • hausshauss Member Posts: 169
    I agree with your comments on the 3 series size. I'm the same height as you and 10 lbs less. I found the 3 to be extremely uncomfortable to me. Just too small to really enjoy whatever it had to offer. I felt the G was bigger but some odd things made it a little more uncomfortable. The seat bolsters were too narrow for me to get my shoulders all the way back into the seatback. Also, I hated the seat controls being under my right quad. Now, all of this was in the first gen. But still what were they thinking with putting the controls there??? I haven't driven the 2nd gen G yet but I've sat in it at a showroom and I was glad to see Infiniti finally caught up with the rest of the auto world and moved the controls. But I still found it to be a bit cramped inside for my taste.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I haven't driven the 2nd gen G yet but I've sat in it at a showroom and I was glad to see Infiniti finally caught up with the rest of the auto world and moved the controls. But I still found it to be a bit cramped inside for my taste.

    I'm five-seven, 145 and the 2nd gen G35 was too small for me!
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Are you guys talking about the G coupe or sedan?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Sedan. The interior on the 07 g35 is very cramped.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I'm five-seven, 145 and the 2nd gen G35 was too small for me!

    You might want to try one out sober! ;)

    The G35 Sedan is bigger than a 335i IN EVERY INTERIOR DIMENSION. Front and rear shoulder room is close, front head room is substantially greater in the G35 (40.5 vs. 38.5) and, surprisingly, combined leg room in the G35 is the GREATEST of any of the ELLPS - 78.6" vs. 77.8" for the TL, 76.1" for the 335i and 74.5" for the IS350.

    I happen to know this because a friend of mine is looking to replace one of thier SUV's with a 4 person sedan and the G35 is definitely more spacious than a 3 series. He and his wife are 6'0" and 5'5" respectively and the additional 2 1/2" of combined leg room allow their two teenage kids to fit in the back of the G35 much easier than the 335i. Even the G35 may not be spacious enough, as that is the excuse he is using to consider the 550i, which is what he really wants. She wants a TL or RL, neither of which are much bigger than the G35, if at all.

    But for someone my height 5'7" to consider the G35 Sedan "very cramped"? That's not coming from the same person that thinks the 3 series has become too big, is it? What's next, you and your fiance buying a slushbox Avalon? ;)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Even the G35 may not be spacious enough, as that is the excuse he is using to consider the 550i, which is what he really wants. She wants a TL or RL, neither of which are much bigger than the G35, if at all.


    He is going to go with his heart...let me know how he likes that car when he gets it.

    I thought the 330 was tiny when my wife urged me to get it over the 300 SRT8 (EGO CAR). I am so glad I went with it. I am 5'9" and 225. I love the seats and I fit in it just fine. Now that the Arabs are getting through their price increases, it feels good at the pump as well.

    Regards,
    OW
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    The G35 Sedan is bigger than a 335i IN EVERY INTERIOR DIMENSION. Front and rear shoulder room is close, front head room is substantially greater in the G35 (40.5 vs. 38.5) and, surprisingly, combined leg room in the G35 is the GREATEST of any of the ELLPS - 78.6" vs. 77.8" for the TL, 76.1" for the 335i and 74.5" for the IS350.

    That doesn't mean squat in relation to the driving position. I drove the car, i know how it felt and it felt claustrophobic. The side of the door felt too close, my right arm seemed to continually bang on the center console, the steering wheel fat big, fat and intrusive. These are all feelings.

    I've sat in the back of cars before that say they have exceptional leg room - like the current honda accord - yet because the seat is so low to the floor, they're far, far more uncomfortable for me than even an old Mrk IV Jetta - which had seemingly little legroom but because the seats were so high, one could sit bolt up right, knees cocked at 90 degrees. This is where tape measurements fail...they can't convey actually feeling something in person.

    I happen to know this because a friend of mine is looking to replace one of thier SUV's with a 4 person sedan and the G35 is definitely more spacious than a 3 series. He and his wife are 6'0" and 5'5" respectively and the additional 2 1/2" of combined leg room allow their two teenage kids to fit in the back of the G35 much easier than the 335i.

    The backseat may be bigger. The front seat was insanely tight for me. What else is there to say? you have an opinion and I have one. I pretty much despised the 07 G35. The front seat space felt surprisingly similar and tight to the IS350. Regardless of dimensions quoted there's a feeling people get when they sit in a car. The G35 felt okay until I started to drive it and then it felt tight and claustrophobic.

    That's not coming from the same person that thinks the 3 series has become too big, is it?

    Again, what's your problem? Yes, the e90 is too big on the inside for me - do you get it's a personal preference? The lack of cockpit feel, the super wide front seat, the expanse from door to door makes the car feel very buick-like. The e46's interior was better for me. No other way to put it. Add to the fact that compared to the e46 the e90 is also heavier, longer, more isolated, has less roadfeel and overall feels like a barge, yeah, sorry if I'm not doing cartwheels over the car.

    The G35 felt worse as I had the sensation of being squeezed by the dash, sides, etc. The car's banal power delivery, chatty-rough engine, heavy and numb steering and the total lack of flingability ruined the drive. It was not an edge of your seat fun car - it was more 5 series clone. And truth be told not too far off from my e90 - which I don't like either.

    I've got a narrow range of what I find acceptable. Picky in the extreme about everything. I want it all - decent space, power, handling, lightweight, docile when requested, loud and brash when pushed. At this point, no car really achieves that. The e90 is close but the weight, isolation and size issue make the car impossible for me to enjoy. My ZHP was a car that fit me better - save for its lack of power; unfortunately, now there are only used ones available, and BMW builds such crappy cars there's little chance i'll take a used bimmer.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Again, what's your problem?

    Lighten up, I have no problem. The ";)" were intended to convey that I was pulling your leg.

    "...do you get it's a personal preference? I've got a narrow range of what I find acceptable. Picky in the extreme about everything."

    That's fine too, I've been known to be more than a little picky myself. However, it's also pretty obvious from your "review" that you despise the G35 for a whole variety of reasons...

    "The car's banal power delivery, chatty-rough engine, heavy and numb steering and the total lack of flingability ruined the drive. It was not an edge of your seat fun car - it was more 5 series clone. And truth be told not too far off from my e90 - which I don't like either."

    I suspect the G35's "insanely tight" front seat would probably not have bothered you in the least, had it been attached to an E36 M3. Or maybe it would have.

    To be honest, I enjoy reading your posts more than most because I know you will never hold back on how you really feel. As in "BMW builds such crappy cars". But I also assume you are more than intelligent enough to know that such extremely worded comments are also more likely to elicit responses. For example, I have close enough to first hand experience (i.e within my extended family) to accurately claim that if BMW builds "crappy cars", than Audi is fully two notches below BMW on the feces scale.

    Don't take my responses as anything more than a friendly volley back at you. You serve up a lot of aces that I agree with, but I'm still holding a racket, just to keep you honest. ;)
  • hausshauss Member Posts: 169
    I'm talking about the sedan also. blueguydotcom, how can you find the G35 small inside when you drive a 330i? Your car is smaller. What was it about it that made it feel smaller to you?
  • hausshauss Member Posts: 169
    hab, I've got to agree with blueguydotcom on the interior space of the G35...to an extent. I found the driver's seat to be a bit cramped too. Now I'll admit I didn't drive it but I've sat in it twice now (once in a show room and another time at an Auto Show). I felt like a lot of things were creeping up on me much like blueguydotcom felt. I wonder how it drives? Suppose I should test drive one someday for grins and giggles? Also, I know the numbers suggest the G35 has the most combined leg room but why does it seem that my TL is roomier? Maybe it's the little things like the design of the back of the front seats or something.
  • hausshauss Member Posts: 169
    blueguydotcom, until I've read your posts I've never heard of e46 or e90 or ZHP. Can you enlighten me and tell me what they stand for or where they come from, please?
  • hausshauss Member Posts: 169
    I went to the Atlanta Auto Show today and got a chance yet again to see all the major ELLPS up close and personal. Just wanted to share some thoughts on what I saw. I'll keep it brief. I'm unimpressed with the current CTS. The materials used for the interior are subpar. I believe the interior materials used on the new Camry are nicer. There was not one thing I liked about the interior. So, to me it was not luxurious in the least. I was also not that impressed with the interior of the IS350. I've heard several on here state it's the nicest of all the ELLPS but a lot of gray plastic trying to look like aluminum and little leather trim. It wasn't horrible but I didn't find it to be as nice as an Audi's or a TL's.

    And for all you CTS fans. They had the 2008 on display and it is a sharp looking car on the outside. You couldn't get up close and personal with it because it was off limits to get in. From what I could see though it was a marked improvement in every way. Very nice looking car.

    Alright all of you...fire away!
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,506
    "Audi is fully two notches below BMW on the feces scale."

    I've been reading (& writing) this stuff on Edmunds for a number of years, for a number of reasons, and that phrase is a keeper. My put is that neither of these cars, let alone the companies that produce them, is all that bad, but maybe that's because I'm ignorant.

    That said, I'll retain the right to fill in the blanks for the former and the latter car names in your phrase. . .and credit the author. Thanks, Habitat. The feces scale is something that clearly needed inventing, and I'm happy to carry it forward.

    Party on!
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    hauss,

    blueguydotcom is referring to the nomenclature for the specific BMW models. A quick cheat sheet (off the top of my head so may be off by a year here and there) is as follows:

    3-Series:
    E30 -- 1983-1991
    E36 -- 1991-1998
    E46 -- 1999-2005
    E90 -- 2006- (Coupe version called E92)

    5-Series:
    E28 -- 1982-1988
    E34 -- 1988-1996
    E39 -- 1997-2003
    E60 -- 2004-

    Options:
    ZPP -- Premium Package
    ZSP -- Sport Package
    ZHP -- Performance Package (kind of a breathed on ZSP)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • hausshauss Member Posts: 169
    Thanks shipo!
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Sorry. Stressful weekend. My car is generating interest and I'm still not sure a GTI will be something I can live with daily.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    GTI ?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Yeah, I'm essentially one phone caller away from a GTI. Someone takes my 330i off my hands, I move to a GTI. Not digging on the big, isolated tank - haven't been from the day I picked it up in Munich.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    would you like a mini cooper?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Nope. drove a 2007 Cooper S 6MT about 3 weeks ago.

    Positives: solid handling, decent ride, good resale, good gas mileage, comfort access, highly customizable, nice bulldog stance/appearance.

    Negatives: (in order of importance) 2 door, peaky-engine (very off-on turbo setup - reminded me of the original WRX), tons of torque steer at WOT, RFTs, lousy manual, bad ergonomics, BMW connection, pricing at msrp, frameless door glass (uses that same breakage prone system as BMW), association with Cult of Mini, no local dealerships in San Diego, no trunk space, no access to backseats, common.
  • spiritintheskyspiritinthesky Member Posts: 207
    If I were you, I'd take a little more time to make sure you really want what you are going to get, before you sell your 330i.

    To me, a Volkswagon GTI seems like a dramatic change, and not an obviously positive one. You may be calling the 330i a "big isolated tank" to help convince yourself that you want to make the move to something else. I would just hope that you aren't finding in a few months that the budget oriented VW, with front wheel drive and a turbocharged 4 cylinder (still a hefty 3,150 lb curb weight) isn't your cup of tea either. And with VW's poor resale and lousy dealership/service reputation, that will only add insult to your injury. I have no axe to grind with VW. Nor do I feel particularly loyal to BMW - I tried my best to talk a 30-something single associate out of a 645i two years ago and now he's taking a bath because he finally figured out it wasn't a sports car and is sick of driving "an old fart's GT".

    If you have any second thoughts, that's a good sign to hold off. Your 330i won't depreciate significantly if you hold onto it for another month or two. But the wrong decision could have you personally and financially frustrated.

    P.S. Same is true for wives. I'm fortunate that although not all of my car decisions were the best, I'm still happily married to my first. ;)

    P.P.S. I'm writing from Germany. Took a 997 GT3 for an extended test drive on the autobahn. That 8,400 rpm free-revving engine and light weight RWD now has me feeling like my 6 month old 911 Turbo is an overweight tank! It happens to the best of us.
  • nkeennkeen Member Posts: 313
    How about a good, clean, low miles E46, if that's where your heart is and if you can find the right one?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Blue,

    What about an Evo? Have you test driven one?

    Regards,
    OW
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Well, if you're considering a GTI, why hot the Mazdaspeed 3 ?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    This is the ELLPS forum, so no need to focus on my desire to get rid of my ELLPS.

    Trust me, I've tried everything. Short of waiting on the 08 WRX/Evo, the car I've chosen is the only thing I know I like.

    Guess it doesn't count as an official ELLPS, but my fiancee made an offer on a 2006 A3 last night. The couple needs to get the title straight with Audi before selling it to us. I always thought a dealer can facilitate a change of ownership, thus negating the hassle of the owner getting their car's title?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Blue, good luck with the GTI if you decide to go that route. I am pretty sure it'll be a fun car to drive but the legendary VW reliability...Yuk.

    Any chance that we'll see you in a BMW 130i couple years from now?
  • allargonallargon Member Posts: 75
    The front seat of a 330i w/ the sport package is leagues more comfortable than the '07 G35 sport.

    I'm not sure about Blueguy. However, anyone with shoulders (fat, athletic, muscular, etc.) will probably not like the G35 Sport. The seats just made my arms feel pushed in--more so than many compact cars I've driven. In fact, I would have to go back to the times I rented an Aveo (definitely not ELLPS) from Enterprise to recall such a cramped feeling. I don't recall there being much headroom w/ the G35, either. I'm also 5'7" and err... larger than many of you. The only seat I thought felt a bit loose was the CTS.

    Driving position and comfort is a major factor with any car. It's amazing that the current CTS (lacks telescoping steering wheel) sells so well.
  • hausshauss Member Posts: 169
    I'm 6' 1" and ~200 lbs. My build is I guess you'd say athletic and both the 3 series and G35 are cramped up front for me but the 3 series I find more so. I just sat in them both again yesterday at the Atlanta Auto Show and I was squeezed. I had surgery on my left shoulder and haven't lifted in 6 months because of it and I was still squeezed. Maybe that's why I found the G to be better this time around compared to the last time I got in one. They're both nice cars but just not for me. Now, the CTS until yesterday I had never even sat in. Man, they use some very poor materials in that thing. It's a good thing they're putting it to pasture after this MY. I mean what's with the joysticks on the vents? And I think the door material on a Civic might be higher quality. My apologies to Rockylee and plako but I now know why you guys are so excited for the '08 version. Without the badges on them one would never know those two cars are related.
  • nkeennkeen Member Posts: 313
    I've driven the GTi, both manual and DSG. It's a great car, especially based on a test drive immediately following a Mustang GT test -- horrible car. I was bitten by reliability problem in my Mk 4, but perhaps they've got their act together now. The Mk 5 was German built at introduction -- not sure if it still is.

    The back seat space is so big in those cars, I almost fell over striding into the back seat in the 2 door -- cavernous.
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    Right there with ya on the cockpit claustrophobia. I went to the BMW dealership with every intention of buying a 328 or 335. After a 15 minute test drive all I wanted to do was get out of that car and streeeeetttttcccchhhhh.

    I'm 6'1" 215, used to have the V cut - now heading for the pear-cut.

    The G35 wasn't much better. Too narrow. Am I the only one with a 38' waist? Seems like the seat was designed for someone with a swimmer's frame, not a footballer's.

    The Acura TL seems to have a ton of room compared to these others. I don't care what stats someone will post about cubic feet of interior room of the TL vs the others. My cubic feet doesn't fit in half the cars in this comparo.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I am 36-34, around 185 to 190 lbs and 6'1. All the ELLPS (IS, G, and 3er) fit me just fine. I felt Acura TL lacks the cabin feel that the IS and G have offered.
  • hausshauss Member Posts: 169
    I guess this stuff is subjective. I've read previous posts from you where you stated you felt the IS had the best interior in the class. I've been in one twice now and to me it's just loaded with large pieces of gray plastic. It reminds me of something I've seen recently in a sport edition Camry. It looks sort of space age and cool if you haven't been in anything nicer but it's just not high quality, expensive material like it should be in a car of this price. It's also the same material I saw in the 2003 G35 and it just doesn't say luxury to me.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Ditto if Lexus is to replace those metallic plastic trim with real aluminum the IS interior will look even more upscale. However, Lexus does offer maple wood as an option over those metallic trim. For me I think the metallic trim makes the cabin feel more sporty so I am willing to accept that it's not the top notch quality material (But Lexus, why not the real aluminum??? :confuse: ). As for your information, I have been inside every ELLPS that the market has to offer and much more, IMO, the only other ELLPS that can rival IS interior's material quality (let's use the wood trim for this one, shall we), fit and finish and dash/gauge design are: Acura TL and MB C-class.

    3er utilized great quality material but the overall cabin design is just awful. Center stack looks like something from the 90s, definitely does not have a "modern" look that a current day benchmark ELLPS should have. I much prefer E46's over the current version. Audi A4, again, has great material but the design looks plain and out-dated to me. G35's cabin looks great from the picture but once inside, the inferior material starts to pop up here and there and eventually got on my nerve during a test drive. Also, the position of the controllers for the screen is just awkward. Why does Infiniti think that those controllers will be better off facing UP instead of facing ME, THE DRIVER is beyond me. :confuse: However, I do like the washi aluminum trim though, great touch. As for the current CTS, let's not even go there...I have great hope for the 2008 CTS and just hope it won't become one of those great-on-picture-not-so-much-in-person interiors.

    BTW, hauss, I am going to the Atlanta Auto Show this weekend as well. I attend that show every year.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Louis,

    Take some nice Pix of ELLPS is you can. We can compare to see if CTS moves up.

    Regards,
    OW
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    The only thing I despise about the interior of the TL is that fake wood they use in there. Completely unacceptable IMHO.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    circlew, I don't think they'll allow people to be inside the 2008 CTS. Last I heard, it's going to be display model only. However, if I do find a way to get inside I'll report back ASAP. My suggestion: don't hold your breath.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Are you sure those wood trims are fake on the TL? Oh well, I much prefer the aluminum/metallic trim over wood anyway.

    Edit:

    I guess it is fake. From Edmunds: The TL Type-S receives a more powerful engine, a sport-tuned suspension, performance tires and more powerful brakes. The navigation system is standard, the interior is trimmed with aluminum and fake carbon fiber instead of fake wood, special sport seats promise more lateral support, the LED instrumentation glows red and blue and the pedals are finished in aluminum.

    Geez, even the carbon-fiber trim on the TL-S is fake as well. Looks like Acura does have to incorporate some cost cutting in order to offer the best value in class.

    Here's the link: 2007 Acura TL
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    OK...just saw that it will be destined for global export. We will see what the interest will be vs. competition.

    Regards,
    OW
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Why even care if it is real or fake aluminum? Or wood?

    Aluminum oxidizes very quickly so it must be coated with plastic anyway. So even if you get real aluminum in your car it is real plastic that you touch and feel. And what would be so good about the feel of real aluminum anyway? Aluminum is not so pretty to look at. It is just gray. So what? And if they add fake grain effects to the aluminum, why not just make it real plastic to begin with? The plastic may be easier and less expensive to make and form into the pieces. That does not make it bad.
    Same idea with fake (real plastic) wood and real wood. The real wood is filled, sanded, polished and then coated with real plastic varnish or overlay, so why not just use real plastic instead of wood to begin with? If the manufacturers use real wood, they do everything they can to make the wood look like plastic, then they coat it with real plastic besides! So again, what you touch is real plastic, not the real wood underneath.
    Real wood is not so dimensionally stable, impervious to moisture and uniformly strong as modern plastics, so wood has a tendency to split, crack, shrink and expand which causes it to lose (in most people's opinions) its beauty eventually, and quicker than modern plastics would.
    Photographic images or artists' interpretations of real wood can be placed on real plastic so accurately that even an expert would have a hard time telling the difference.

    So what's the big deal?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Hmmm, I love my real aluminum trim. Do i wish it was the black cube aluminum of my ZHP? Yep, but this stuff looks infinitely better to me than pimp-like wood in a car.
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    The big deal IMHO is that none of the cars in this segment are your "average" daily drivers. The materials used in the inside should reflect the price being charged for the vehicle.
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