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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Bruce,

    I have the same car and although I agree the AWD has a slight disadvantage in the handling department, I rate it still better than the 330 non-sp since I drove a loaner for 1K miles.

    I had the same experience when I drove this car while testing. It just "did it" for me.

    Regards,
    OW
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    I agree with you. AWD is my thing also.

    I have miniscule need for AWD here in the South. The Southern/warmer states are growing hugely compared to the Northern/colder climates. I'd expect the sales of AWD cars over the next few years to flatten and then wane.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    The TL has a manual transmission. Not sure how I proved your point. If you want RWD than the G35 and IS can be had cheaper than a comparable 3 series.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Yes the 2008 CTS would be the choice. The others are fine but all have flaws that would have be going in a different direction. If the G35 looked better I would get it, but its just not doing it for me styling wise. Many people would mistake the '07 for the '06 because they are that similar.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "Yes, about $4000 more than a base TL. But the BMW's HID's are swiveling and auto-leveling. The BMW's leather seats are all-leather, not "leather-trimmed." The BMW's heated seats are 3-stage instead of 2-staged. So, how much more do these features cost compared to the Acura "equivalent?" "

    I know one thing, those features arent worth $4k in my book.

    "Also, How much does brake fade compensation and brake drying cost? What about Dynamic Cruise Control? These safety features are standard on the 328i.

    And what if you want headlight washers? Comfort Access? Active Steering? Sport Package? manual transmission? RWD? All-Wheel Drive? "

    I didnt know dynamic cruise was standard, that is the first I heard of that. As for the other stuff, you can get it but it will cost your dearly. Adding those options will put you in RL territory, not TL territory. According to people here those kinds of features are unnecessary distractions and are not essential to the 3 series experience. If that be the case I dont see the point in mentioning that the 3 series can be optioned up to $45k+ and the TL cant.

    Can you verify the TL has partial leather? I havent heard that before. Most cars have leather on the front part of theh seats and something cheaper on the back part facing the rear passengers. You can equip a 328i to be cheaper but its still missing quite a few features on the TL so its not cheaper on a feature for feature basis. There is a site called truedelta.com that gives you good comparions of models taking options into account. It will show you that a car like the TL is MUCh cheaper when you account for features not on the 328.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "Some of us wish to pay only for what we want. If what we want is a RWD platform with a manual transmission & not much else (besides what comes with a car with those two things). . ."

    This argument continues to be made as if the 3 series is the only car on the market that can be had with RWD, a manual and a less than full plate of options. The G35, C class and CTS all offer the same thing to customers. I understand that some want to deride the TL for coming loaded but most people like that idea and the TL is cheaper than most of its competition if they are comparably equipped. If you insist on having a luxury car that is equipped like a base Accord and only want a manual tranny, you can get that with MB, Caddy and Infiniti models. That's three other RWD cars in the same price range as the 3 that offer what you are talking about. I dont understand why people keep saying if you want those two things you dont have many choices. If you really only want to count base models you can include the IS as well.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    There is a site called truedelta.com that gives you good comparions of models taking options into account.

    1487, that is an excellent site which allows people to obtain price of different cars according to his/her own preference.

    Thanks.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    The TL has a manual transmission. Not sure how I proved your point. If you want RWD than the G35 and IS can be had cheaper than a comparable 3 series.

    You also wrote: RWD isnt an essential feature for many car buyers. I'm talking luxury or technology features.

    You're making a value judgment right here. I agree that many buyers don't value RWD and a manual; I value it more than leather or bluetooth. Neither side is right or wrong. They're placing value on things I see as detractors to the value of a car. They're negating value at times with some features.

    The IS350 is worth less to me as a buyer - like my example of a loaded 335i - because it is outfitted with a transmission that retards my enjoyment of a car. How do I put a value on that? If RWD and manual fun has a baseline personal valuation of 35k to me, then how far does that drop an automatic equipped car?

    Well in my value system that makes the car pretty much unlivable. I would probably rather FWD and a manual before ever owning a car with an automatic; having driven the IS350, its automanual is one of the worst I've ever experienced on a car. So, I'd say a RWD car equipped with a bad automatic must be worth less than the absolutely cheapest new manual FWD car I'd own: a GTI. A GTI runs 24k. So figure 22-23k is my valuation of any IS350. Regardless of features or content beyond the RWD and manual, I know I won't live with a traditional automatic.

    Private valuation - we all have it. When we buy we've generally reconciled that our purchase meets a threshold where the cost to value is level in our heads. You expressed earlier that you don't see the value in ELLPS. Your private valuation of the group of vehicles is markedly less than the collected MSRPs and thus you will not strike a deal for one.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,726
    "Can you verify the TL has partial leather?"

    Yes, my '05 TL has (like many cars) "leather seating surfaces." Basically, where a body part touches the seat: leather. Many cars have optional "full leather." The rest is probably vinyl. Hard to tell the difference without close inspection. NOt sure if that is a compliment to the vinyl or an insult to the leather!

    Also, TL has faux-carbon fiber trim which I think looks better than the faux-wood. The faux-wood just looks so much more faux! But, real aluminum. I would prefer wood to aluminum. Real wood. Or less faux faux-wood. And real plastic! But quality, attractive plastic. Not CTS-horrid plastic...

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    disagree. True Delta puts zero weight on any features. It also fails to deduct value when a car lacks features.

    I ran an MKZ v. a 328i 6 MT ZSP and according to True Delta the MKZ was worth significantly more because it had worthless trinkets like memory seats and automatic transmission. Now, how could the MKZ's automatic tranny make the car worth more to a buyer who specifically rates it against a manual car? The MKZ lacks stability control, yet it was dinged for this, while the 3 was given $25 for having DSC. Stability control is only worth $25?! The MKZ lacks a sport package and again this didn't hurt the MKZ's pricing. Obviously, the buyer wants manual and sport packaging; the system refuses to weigh options based on user desires. Thus true delta's methodology is flawed.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Your value system is different than mine and some others on this discussion. I place great value on the drivers experience BMW delivers. I place less value on electronic doo-dads that's don't really contribute to the driver experience. For example DVD-audio for me is neither a deal maker or deal breaker.

    That BMW delivers a basic sedan that feels as if it's riding on rails is what some of us place value on. Others place less value on this drivers experience and really want the doo-dads that differentiate these vehicles from their plebian relatives.

    You make good points, but you seem to be at the other end of the spectrum with regards to where the value lies in the ELLPS segment than some other posters. Nothing wrong with that and you acknowledged it.

    Honestly, the line about getting a luxury car equipped like an Accord is a bit condescending. It is after all my money I'm spending, not yours.

    And I defend my right to defend the car of my choice. :P
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    "those features arent worth $4k in my book."

    Yet, the TL costs $6000 more than the Accord V6 EX-L and it's worth it?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Yet, the TL costs $6000 more than the Accord V6 EX-L and it's worth it?"

    That's waaay different. But don't ask me why. :confuse
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    know one thing, those features arent worth $4k in my book."

    What you are actually saying is that DVD-Audio, HIDs, leather-trimmed seats, and driver memory settings are features YOU place value in, but you place NO VALUE in RWD, dynamic cruise control, or brake fade compensation.

    Your assertion that the TL (or CTS, G35, etc.) is a much better value than the 328i is nothing more than your personal value statement - it is not based on facts.

    And how can it possibly be? We're talking about luxury items, which by their very nature, are driven by personal values. The "facts" show that all of these cars are a poor value compared to a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord. We are willing to pay more (much more) for these cars because they appeal to our emotional AND practical sides.

    Saying that a Cadillac is a "better value" than a BMW is like saying that Aaron Copland was a "better" composer than Gustav Mahler. You can say it, you can even present some "facts" that support it, but you can never prove it.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Saying that a Cadillac is a "better value" than a BMW is like saying that Aaron Copland was a "better" composer than Gustav Mahler. You can say it, you can even present some "facts" that support it, but you can never prove it."

    Ohhh, that's a tough one. Fanfare for the Common Man versus Mahler's First. Ouch. I'm glad that that I have both and can listen to either when the mood strikes me. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    Who's Aaron Copland and that Gustav guy?

    I contend that none of these ELLPSs are good values. You're right - the Camry and Accord are probably the best car out there that we need. Or even step down to a loaded Elantra for that matter. But there's a huge difference between need and want.

    These guys that "need" a 46'' LCD 1080p flat panel HDTV can tell you how they're such a great experience etc., but if you watch one hour of TV a day you'd probably not be convinced of their value.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Well, Mahler's First is available on DG for $7.99 while Fanfare costs $10.99 on EMI - although you do get Rodeo on the disc too.

    Which is a better value?

    BTW Shipo, you were supposed to complement me on choosing an American composer to represent Cadillac and a German composer to represent BMW.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    but if you watch one hour of TV a day you'd probably not be convinced of their value.

    We watch less TV than that per week and only in HD. Yes, HD is worth it. Like sushi, if you're gonna bother, get something that's really good.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Yikes, my bad. :blush: Of course my favorite version of Fanfare was done by a British Invasion rock band and my favorite version of the First was done by the big brassy CSO of the 1980s. International music for cars sourced with parts from all over the globe. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    Ah, the 80's. Georg Solti!

    BTW, there's only one recording of Mahler's 1st that I listen to - Bruno Walter's.
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    Suggest you test drive a Jaguar X Type sport wagon with AWD. They're quick, and, handle very well. Reliability is second only to Lexus. Leather, 3.0 V6, automatic, and AWD is standard.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
    06 X-Type 3.0 Sedan
  • quasiactuaryquasiactuary Member Posts: 50
    "Suggest you test drive a Jaguar X Type sport wagon with AWD. They're quick, and, handle very well. Reliability is second only to Lexus. Leather, 3.0 V6, automatic, and AWD is standard."

    What are you smoking? Reliability is second only to Lexus???? According to ConsumerReports.com the X-type has BY FAR the worst reliability in this segment...93% WORSE than average. A lot of what we talk about here is subjective, but this is not. You are wrong, X Type reliability is awful, dreadful, second to everyone who makes a car in this segment.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Give the man a cigar! Was it fate that Jaguar is now a F.O.R.D.??

    It's too early and it's cold outside but Jaguar quality second to Lexus???

    Muhahahahahahahaha!!!!!

    Regards,
    OW
  • kcleukkcleuk Member Posts: 45
    I am not really a real intensed driver, Just looknig for a car. I am not a fast driver or anything extreme. Just the average joe kind of driver.

    I heard about how RWD is bad during snow, Skiding and spinning and fishtail off. Also, I just saw in the news this G35 Coupr (RWD), the tires were spinning but the car was not moving..
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    If your car will be used in snow then I'll highly recommend that you stay away from RWD. AWD should be the best option but FWD with a set of good snow tires would do as well as long as you are not intended to drive under "extreme" conditions.
  • quasiactuaryquasiactuary Member Posts: 50
    "I heard about how RWD is bad during snow, Skiding and spinning and fishtail off. Also, I just saw in the news this G35 Coupr (RWD), the tires were spinning but the car was not moving.. "

    It's mostly about the tires. Chances are you were seeing an idiot trying to drive a RWD G35 Coupe with summer tires. If you are willing to put snow tires on in the winter then RWD shouldn't be a problem just about anywhere (unless there is enough snow that ground clearance is an issue, but if that is the problem you'll need something like an SUV that sits up higher).
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Like others have said, RWD and a good set of winter tires is all you need to easily navigate all but the deepest snows and steepest inclines. Regarding the idiot in his G35, he got what he deserved. The summer rubber that thing was most likely shod with has absolutely no business being used in the snow.

    Now, the question I have is why are you looking at an ELLPS in the first place? Based upon what you wrote about your driving style it sounds much more like you'd be better served with a Camry, Avalon, Accord, MKZ, or (dare I say it?) a TL.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    "Now, the question I have is why are you looking at an ELLPS in the first place? Based upon what you wrote about your driving style it sounds much more like you'd be better served with a Camry, Avalon, Accord, MKZ, or (dare I say it?) a TL."

    TL might be FWD and not 10/10ths of the performance sedan for the pure enthusiast but an appliance it is not. Nice try. ;)
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    the question I have is why are you looking at an ELLPS in the first place?

    I don't know what kcleuk's answer is, but from the numbers, price makes BMW a remarkable contender, especially the 328i. With MSRP of $32,400, ED pricing of $28720 (including $1000 profit for dealer), 73% residual, and 0.00125 money factor, a 24-mo lease on 328i can be as low as $277/mo with zero cap reduction! I don't think you can get a V6 Camry, Avalon, Accord or MKZ, much less a TL, with sort of like leather interior, for that little money. Yes, cheap could be the reason for getting a BMW ;-) IMHO, with the similar set of parameters, 335i at $322/mo with real leather makes for an even better deal, but hey we are on the topic of being really cheap. Don't forget that maintenance is included although not tires, so aggressive driving cost extra with BMW's, especially with the expensive run-flats.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I'm well aware of the benefits if the ED program. A couple of years back I picked up a fairly tarted up 530i via ED. The car had an MSRP of $48,750 and my "zero down" three year lease came out to $550 per month, not too shabby. Given that Mrs. Shipo and I were already going to be taking a vacation to Europe at the time, and given that I would have otherwise had to spend a couple of thousand on a rental car (that would have been no where near as nice as the 5er), the cost of the 5er was even lower than the already inexpensive $550 per month. ;-)

    So, to echo your post, true, if kcleuk is shopping exclusively on price, then yes, a strippo ED 328i would be a screaming bargain compared to a high end Camry. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • kcleukkcleuk Member Posts: 45
    I thought about the BMW 3 series, but in the long term, I am afraid the maintenance is expensive. If anything breaks down, it will be too costly. Plus, Lexus has more options for the same price.

    Also, I dont like the design of the 3 series sedan. I like the coupe much better
  • kcleukkcleuk Member Posts: 45
    I am not lookingg for Camry or Accord. I am looking for something luxury. I don't plan to change car often. So I figured I would be best paying for something I like.

    Leasing is a good option if I plan to change cars every 2-3 years. But thats not the case for me. I am going to stick to that car for quite a while as my next big purchase is for a house.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Well then, Toyota Avalon, Lexus ES350, Acura TL, Lincoln MKZ, and maybe even the Hunddai Azera. Given your criteria, I don't see any other cars fitting the bill.

    Let us know what you decide upon. :D

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    Sorry my friend. Have owned 2 X Types - both bulletproof. Only thing I'd use CR for is to line the bottom of a birdcage. CR tested the 2002 model which had first year problems. After that the car steadily improved. Try reading the comments from actual owners in Yahoo. Look at JD Powers and MSN ratings for them. I will thank you for one thing - thanks to the perception of people like you, twice I've been able to score new X Types with nice factory incentives.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Lexus most certainly does not have any option for $277/mo, like the 328i is, not even the ES350 or the IS250, both are around $400+/mo with no cap reduction.

    I have mostly been a cash buyer of cars, but nowadays I'm starting to wonder if there is such a thing as "in the long term." The interest I forfeit by buying a IS350 would pay for the bulk of a lease on a 335i at $322/mo. At the end of two years, I'd still have my $42k cash intact. It's getting a little absurd out there. I mean, seriously, at the 6% interest rate currently available, I'd have to keep the cash purchase for 30 years without repair/maintenance to come out ahead ($42k / (322 - 210) = 375 months). No idea how long BMW can keep up this charade.
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    Enjoy your laugh. Ford also owns Volvo and Land Rover. Had Ford not cleaned up Jag's reliabilty problems, I wouldn't be buying them. Have experienced Diamler/Chryslers and BMWs reliability first hand - no thanks. Meantime, you and that other guy keep staring at all them little dots in CR.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • kominskykominsky Member Posts: 850
    Shipo and fedlawman.. I'm not sure about those two guys, but have you heard the latest by Disturbed? It rocks!! :)
  • quasiactuaryquasiactuary Member Posts: 50
    "Sorry my friend. Have owned 2 X Types - both bulletproof. Only thing I'd use CR for is to line the bottom of a birdcage. CR tested the 2002 model which had first year problems. After that the car steadily improved. Try reading the comments from actual owners in Yahoo. Look at JD Powers and MSN ratings for them. I will thank you for one thing - thanks to the perception of people like you, twice I've been able to score new X Types with nice factory incentives. "

    Oh, I'm so sorry. So your basis for saying the X Type has reliability second only to Lexus is your whopping 2 cars worth of experience. Wow, can't argue with that...2 whole cars? :confuse: Why do you say it is second to Lexus, have you owned 3 of those that were bulletproof? :P

    Sorry, my friend. Reliability is about probability, the odds, what someone can expect when they buy a car based on what thousands of people have seen in real life. I'm happy for you that you got lucky with your 2 X Types, but that tells people next to nothing about the car's overall reliability.

    And once again you are completely wrong...the car has not steadily improved (in terms of reliability) since the 2002 year. According to consumer reports the 2003 model year was somewhat better (coming in at average reliability rather than much worse than average), but the 2004 year had MAJOR issues and the 2005 year looks even worse. Try again.

    Consumer Reports may have only "tested" the 2002 model, but that isn't why they say the X Type's reliability is crap. They compile information from many thousands of people like you who own the car....it isn't just an "is your car reliable" questionnaire, it is quite lengthy and asks very specific questions regarding what you have had to have fixed/replaced. According to the real life experience of thousands of folks, the X Type has had issues in the 2004 model with the drive system, transmission, power equipment, body hardware and body integrity...the 2005 model has had issues with all of those things PLUS issues with the electrical system and climate system. Based on the real life reliability of thousands of cars (not just your 2), I say that X Types are not reliable.

    People like me (who understand statistics) will shy away from the crappy X Type. Good luck, if you keep buying them the chances are great that you'll end up agreeing eventually. A crappy (93% worse than average) reliability rating doesn't mean that every single car will be a lemon, it means that your chances of having problems are MUCH GREATER than they are with a reliable car.

    I wouldn't trust Consumer Reports in their reviews of cars (when they drive them and make subjective ratings), and their way of compiling thousands of reliability responses may not be perfect, but they are one of the best source out there for reliability information. They aren't trashing your X Type, people suckered in with the factory incentives are.
  • alanrosemanalanroseman Member Posts: 23
    I’m new G35X owner. 2007, Obsidian black on Charcoal.

    As I just traded an X type I feel compelled to post on this subject.

    When I bought the X I was swayed by the AWD, not by the cost differential between it and the S-Type.

    All and any of the automobiles discussed here are very fine drivers, and pretty spiffy looking too.

    That said. The reliability factor doesn’t really resonate with me and I’m unsure why it’s such a big deal to some of you folks. And, the X is a fun driver.

    The car is under warranty, when it screws up, the dealer repairs it. When you head to the dealer for repair, they hand you a loaner. What’s the big deal?

    I really enjoyed my X type. Put 60K on it from new, had the usual Jag issues, but the dealer squared them away. Once the warranty expired I started looking for my next ride.

    In fact I looked at the X again, however, they no longer make a “sport” version. Stiff suspension, no chrome, black on black with black wood dash etc. Didn’t enjoy the multi colored dash. Also, this is the last year of the X. I didn’t want to own an AWD drive vehicle from Jag that was no longer in production.

    I drove the Beemer, Lexus, MB. CTS too. Last vehicle I drove was the G35. I can say the interior of the 2007 G35 played a role in my purchase. I looked at a 2006, and wouldn’t have considered it based on the interior accoutrements alone. Just didn’t have a center post that floated my boat. And, the G35 has HP and bottom to spare. I like a little flash in my powder tin.

    If it’s reliability you seek, and that’s a big issue. Look at the Corolla, and the Camry and don’t forget the Civic either. Why are the Accord and Camry even mentioned here?

    When this one (G35X) hits 55k – 60k, I’ll begin my quest anew.

    Automobiles are something you’ll own a series of throughout your life, they aren’t a one and done.

    Cheers to all..
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I have been a pretty staunch supporter of the BMW 3-series in spite of never owning one. I tested the 2004 330i ZHP, but ended up buying a TL 6-speed due to the combination of attributes it offered - and a back seat my kids could fit comfortably in. However, I thought the 330i ZHP, in spite of a 35hp deficit to the TL 6-speed, was clearly the better all around performer. And looked/felt good from the drivers seat.

    I had assumed the 335i was that much better, with significant increases in power. But it wasn't until this past Friday that I actually stopped in to the BMW dealership and took a close look at the new 335i coupe and sedan. Now I know what some are talking about with the interior. Gone is the "cockpit" feel of the older 3 series or M3's. Hell, my TL feels sportier sitting in the drivers seat.

    I still believe the 335i is the far and away performance leader for driving enthusaists in the ELLPS segment. But it has certainly lost its soul as far as the feel and look from the driver's seat. It feels bigger and far, far, far less driver oriented than the previous generation 4,000 lb M5.

    I guess this is blueguydotcom's opportunity to say "I told you so". All I can say is that I have never been more anxious to hop into my 911 and just look at the interior and enjoy the feel of the shifter before I turned on the ignition. I'll still be a defender of BMW driving dynamics - which are second to none in the ELLPS segment. But frankly, I couldn't buy the car on looks alone. I'm not sure what the heck I would do if I were in the market today. Buy a used M5, most likely.
  • quasiactuaryquasiactuary Member Posts: 50
    I'm not saying that I only buy a car based on its reliability. It is a factor for me because I'm not willing to spend time dealing with a dealer and with a messed up car if I don't have to. If the only fun cars were also unreliable I very well might choose a fun but unreliable car....fortunately that isn't the decision we all have to make.

    I do apologize if I have come off too sharply in replying to the other X Type driver here (OldCEM). I have no problem with your post, my issue is when someone makes a recommendation based on stating something false like it is gospel. The "X Type reliability is second only to Lexus" is the FALSE statement I am referring to. If you want to say "I recommend the X Type, I love mine, it's fun to drive, the AWD system is great, it's very luxurious, etc." that's great. Saying it has reliability second only to Lexus is no more of a lie than if he had said it could literally fly or that it was made out of 100% titanium....it's just not true. When pushed he admitted his statement, which he made as if it were a fact, was based on a sample size of 2 cars. Say "my 2 X Types were bulletproof", and that's fine.

    Some statement people make on this board are FACTS (AWD, 3.0L V6, leather, $xx,000, etc.), some are clearly OPINIONS (best value, best interior layout, looks best, etc.), and some are opinions (or untrue facts) stated as if they were facts....those last kind of posts are the ones that drive me nuts.
  • kcleukkcleuk Member Posts: 45
    it's true if you finance the whole thing.

    I only plan to finance about 10k and pay it off within 24 months with 6% it's about 900 of interest. (which is about 3 months of lease).
  • spiritintheskyspiritinthesky Member Posts: 207
    As a 2007 911 Turbo owner AND "previous generation" 2003 M5 owner, I can fully understand and sympathize with you relative to the direction BMW has gone in interior design with BOTH the 3 series and 5 series. My nephew's 335i has very impressive performance, but is as sterile as a hospital operating room compared to my M5. Don't hold your breath on me giving up my particular M5 to the used car market. There is absolutely nothing out there, at any price, that I would rather have as a performance sedan.

    My advice is that you enjoy your 911 and keep your TL. There isn't anything else in the ELLPS that is much better than the TL's interior, and there is hardly anything else in the world better than the 911's "driving dynamics". :)
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Member Posts: 3,118
    When he said Jaguar was #2, he wasn't basing it on his personal ownership experience. He clearly stated that he based it on JD Powers and MSN surveys.

    I found a 2005 article stating Jaguar finished 2nd in Initial Quality...
    http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/112_news050615_jag_jdpowe/

    But according to JD Powers, the X-Type only rates 2 out of 5 for Initial Quality...
    http://www.jdpower.com/autos/jaguar/x-type/2006/sedan

    MSN rates the X-Type a 5 out of 5 for reliability, but strangely, their "ConsumerReports.org Short Take," states "reliability continues to be well below average."
    http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/overview.aspx?year=2007&make=Jaguar&model=X-TY- - PE&trimid=-1

    Who to believe? Believe the source that says what you want to hear, I guess.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "When this one (G35X) hits 55k – 60k, I’ll begin my quest anew.

    Automobiles are something you’ll own a series of throughout your life, they aren’t a one and done."

    Well, just for a different perspective, if I had gone through (3) ELLPS from 1995 through 2005 at $35-$45k a pop, instead of milking my ultra-reliable $20k 1995 Maxima SE for 155k+ miles, I would have had a tougher time justifying to myself the purchase of a 911.

    There are several ways to play the automotive game, from trade when the new car smell is gone, to drive them till they drop. But, at least as far as I can tell, buying cars with below average relaiblity and then trading them before the warranty is up is not necessarily the best bang for the buck. I am quite sure that I have spent less than the average 3-4 year trader in cars over the last 15 years, including my current stable.
  • kennyg8kennyg8 Member Posts: 225
    Habitat, looks like you are sentimentally attached to your aging 95 Max, which stayed with you from pauper to prince. Notwithstanding your recent splurge, I think you made and continue to make very sound economic choices. :)
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,421
    I agree with you guys 100%. I think that the 3 series is the best driving car of the ELLPS segment. I'll defend it to the end against the (poor handling, softly sprung, intstant-on braking, numb & overboosted steering) IS350 as well as the others in the ELLPS segment. But I couldn't put my money where my mouth is. In September '05 I came very close to leasing a low optioned E90 325i with Sports Package, Heated seats, & a Six Speed. After I drove the car, I just couldn't pull the trigger. The car had decent acceleration, rode rock solid on the highway, braked good, & handled very well. There was something missing. The dash wasn't very driver oriented and it didn't feel as connected to the road as other BMWs I've driven ('84 E30 325e, '95 E36 325is, '04 X5 3.0iA Sport, '05 E60 530iA).

    I knew the salesman as I'd negotiated 2 BMW leases for my parents the year before (the aforementioned X5 & 530). The lease rates were terrible at the time. He agreed to sell me the car at $1000 over invoice. I walked out and told him I'd think about it, then drove home in my '01 Honda Prelude Type SH. I couldn't do it. It wasn't worth it for me. He even called me back the next day and offered to sell me the car $300 cheaper, but I declined.

    If something were to happen to my beloved Prelude, I'd look for a used '05 E46 330i ZHP.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Interest is something that exists whether you finance (therefore pay) or have the money in the bank (therefore collect). I have never financed a car, always a cash buyer or taking advantage of lease deals. Lately what I have been realizing is that with interest between 5-6% on money market accounts over $50k, I'd be losing $200/mo interest income if I put $40k cash towards a car sitting in my garage instead of leaving the money in the bank. . . making some of the lease deals, like I mentioned before, very attractive.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Trading a cash bought car every few years like I have been doing is definitely a money losing proposition in the current environment. Keeping a car for 10 years is starting to make less sense too. For example, $30k in the bank earns an interest income of nearly $150/mo; leasing a 328i with ED costs only $277/mo with no cap reduction. How many months would it take for the $127/mo difference to add up to $30k that a cash buyer has to put down initially? hmm, 236 months, or close to 20 years! One has to keep the car well over a decade before it breaks even. I will chalk up lease inception cost and additional excise tax if any(not sales tax) against maintenance cost. There is no advantage in sales tax for buyer either because at $277/mo, it would take a decade to add up to $30k, which would also be taxable for a cash buyer.

    Financing is of course even worse off than cash buying as the bank usually charges higher interest than it pays out in interest, the number of which was used above.

    BTW, I know it's very odd. I have no idea how long those lease subsidizers can keep the charade up.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Yeah, the high interest rates in the bank make putting the money into a car like throwing away 8k instantly. The same goes for buying most cars new. I'm totally struggling with the economics of paying for a new car v. paying for a new-on-the-lot discounted 06 .v just buying used.

    You pay cash for a 36k ELLPS, pull off the lot and you're down ~7-8k in a blink (36k negotiated price + 3.6k TTL - 16% off MSRP of 38k = $7500 loss).
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