Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

allargon · March 2007

It was a Bimmer salesguy that told me that. I kind of took it with a grain of salt for obvious reasons. He was right about the A4's back seat being small. Actually, the front seat of the A4 is the only car I've ever sat in that made me feel fat! I'm glad that the A4 isn't a glorified Jetta. I will definitely withdraw the inference I made.

The Germans automakers really don't believe in synergies, do they? Mercedes doesn't want to share too much with Chrysler, and BMW doesn't appear to care about lacking a mid-sized mass market sedan. I guess Audi and Lambo are the only ones that share.

The e46's backseat isn't that bad. However, I won't call it spacious for anyone above 5'10". However the backseat headroom in the e90 door is just painful. (I bumped my head entering and exiting twice while sober with my buddy driving. I won't even mention the times after we started drinking simply because I can't remember them!

) Your 6'3" friend can sit in the back of an e90 without complaining? Is he like a contortionist or something? I couldn't imagine being 6'3" and being comfortable in the back of a CTS or TL (best in this class).

No road trips? Blueguy, you are definitely Californian! I love you for that. You remind me of all my friends in the Bay Area that thought I was nuts whenever I drove from Mountain View to LA.

This was pre-9/11. They all said, "There are planes for that." LOL. Seriously, aren't we supposed to be enthusiasts here who love to drive? I remember taking my *cough* sport sedan (1994 Pontiac Grand Am SE) down the 5 to LA. Highway cruising is definitely a different driving experience than going on the track or the twisties, but I wouldn't say it's not fun.

Blueguy, wouldn't you want to run your e46 through West Texas hitting the electronic limiter just for fun?

ivan_99 · March 2007

When looking at BMW's site, the highest discount for the 3 series is $3435 for the 335i Convertible.

Did you negotiate down from the ED savings? Or did you do something else?

I assumed you would just have to take the car at MSRP - ED discount.

ggesq · March 2007

ED is worth it imo because you get a pretty good discount, get to pick up your car, tool around Europe if you like and go on the "suggested" tours and make a vacation out of it. It's especially sweet if you have enough miles saved up so your trip can be free.

On the other hand, if you don't have miles & don't have time off from work to get a vacation, then the $$ spent on the trip (however short lived it may be) narrows the gap you actually save by doing the ED program.

From my reading of the ED program on BMW's site, it seems like a pretty cool program i.e. if I ever to decide to get into a BMW.

Just my .02. Correct me if I'm wrong.

blueguydotcom · March 2007

When looking at BMW's site, the highest discount for the 3 series is $3435 for the 335i Convertible.

Do you normally start negotiating to buy a car based on the MSRP or invoice? same with ED. There's ED pricing and there's ED invoice. you start at ED invoice pricing and work up. People who buy based on ED MSRP are the same rubes who buy cars at MSRP.

I assumed you would just have to take the car at MSRP - ED discount.

Nope. Start at the lowest price they pay and tack on a profit for them - most often 1k.

If I'm not mistaken, base ED invoice is $34,950 for the e92 (base MSRP is $40,800). Options are invoice priced too so every option creates a wider and wider gulf.

blueguydotcom · March 2007

April of 06 I drove from Munich to Nice, France in my e90. Took the scenic route through the alps - avoiding toll roads.

I drove back from Avignon, France to Munich in under 6 hours about 11 days later.

I've taken road trips many times; but since college those have pretty much been confined to me alone or me with a female companion. Not a car full of people. There's nothing fun or pleasant about having other people along for a ride unless that other person is a significant other. Two's company, three is just shoot-me-in-the-head now.

I love a quick jaunt from San Diego to SF (6-6.5 or so hours) or SD to Vegas (4 hours tops). Hell we jammed up to LA last Tuesday for a 20 minute transaction.

shipo · March 2007

"I assumed you would just have to take the car at MSRP - ED discount."

Egad, perish the thought. Why "give" the dealer all that money? I don't mean that you should make them starve, however, I think $1,000 to $1,200 is more than enough profit for filling out a little paperwork. I mean, they are selling you a car that they wouldn't be able to sell were it not for the fact that you are willing to go to Europe to get it.

The "proper" way (IMHO) to buy (or lease) an ED car is to find out what the ED invoice is on the car, add the shipping charges, the invoice of any options you might want and say $1,000 for dealer profit. Then you make your local dealership an offer. Some dealers will take the deal, some won't. The dealership where I leased my first BMW from didn't. I went fifteen miles down the road (literally, the same road even) and made the same offer. Done deal in under an hour. I picked the car up seven weeks later.

Best Regards,
Shipo

oldcem · March 2007

I'll tell you one more time. JD Powers ranked the X second to Lexus. One of the other posters even pointed this out. I'm assuming that they polled a representative sample of the 400k owners out there. If you have a big problem with their survey results - carp at them. I will take issue with your GM statement. When I left the corporation, I don't think they tested anything twice - look at some of the crap they built and relied on their marketing muscle to sell. Anyway, the X is supposed to be in production until 2010, if you can believe management's statements to the press. By that time I'll be out test driving all the competition for my wallet again. Nice thing about my employer is we get employee pricing on virtually all car makes. Get back to me in 2010 and you can rant about what I decide to buy next.

Regards:
OldCEM

habitat1 · March 2007

...to those that might have thought the BMW ED price (MSRP) was non-negotiable, that is the case for Mercedes and Volvo. Those dealers make a fixed fee for handling an ED order that is significantly less than the markup a BMW dealer makes on an ED MSRP sale.

For a long time there was a secret pact amoung BMW dealers in my area not to discount ED prices. Then one dealer left the cartel in about 2000/2001 and the secret was out (and discounts were in).

hauss · March 2007

Is that above or below invoice usually?

oldcem · March 2007

Obviously I own an X-Type, and, I take the surveys and mag articles with a grain of salt. In my opinion, the truth is:
1. The 2002 X-Type had a bunch of niggling problems, and, one major problem - the trannys in a bunch of them failed. Ford rushed the car to market before it was fully sorted out, and, pissed off a bunch of first time buyers.
2. By the 2003 model year, Ford had recalled and replaced all the bad trannys, and, addressed some of the other niggling problems. However, by then, Ford had really sullied the car's reputation.
3. The following model years continued to get better, Ford continued to improve the vehicle mechanically. However, they missed the boat by not introducing a larger engined "R" model to compete head to head with BMW, Infiniti, Etc. This would have reignited interest in the line. The car continued to move up in various quality surveys, but, few were paying attention. In addition, Jag's advertising department was and remains absolutely impotent.
5. Today, the car is vastly improved over what it was in 2002. Jag, too late in my opinion, has reduced prices and added features that make the car a relative bargain when compared to comparably equipped competitors. It still lacks a "flagship" model, and, its too late to introduce one now. At its current price point, its hard to beat, but, few consider it. Enthusiasts sneer, because 5 speed manual sport models are no longer available in the US.

Regards:
OldCEM

blueguydotcom · March 2007

Is that above or below invoice usually?

~5500 below MSRP. Remember you also don't have to pay MACO fees (usually around $400) and the training fee ($180) with an ED. That alone essentially pays for the airfare for one person. The Lufthansa 2-for-1 deal usually runs $1k.

blueguydotcom · March 2007

Even with a manual the car is little more than a redone Mondeo - an old Mondeo chassis at that.

jtla · March 2007

Check out this forum if you haven't already done so. There is so much information that you will learn the ins and outs of ED in no time.

BMW European Delivery

quasiactuary · March 2007

"I'll tell you one more time. JD Powers ranked the X second to Lexus. One of the other posters even pointed this out. I'm assuming that they polled a representative sample of the 400k owners out there. If you have a big problem with their survey results - carp at them. I will take issue with your GM statement. When I left the corporation, I don't think they tested anything twice - look at some of the crap they built and relied on their marketing muscle to sell..."

I'll try telling you one more time, the JD Powers stuff is NOT a reliability ranking. It is INITIAL QUALITY, (whatever that means). To me reliability implies more than just how the car will do for 90 days. I'll drop it, I do understand why you said "second only to Lexus", I just think it has nothing to do with reliability and (as the other poster pointed out) JD Powers also gave the X Type a rating of 2/5 stars so they aren't that certain of the X Type's INITIAL QUALITY either.

Sorry for coming off as ranting, your reliability statement just struck a nerve with me. As far as your car choice in 2010...there should be several good/fun choices, enjoy!

I completely agree with your GM assessment. Believe it or not, I was thinking I might strike a nerve if I said something badmouthing GM so I tried to be diplomatic. I should have known that a former GM employee would know the "quality" of GM products :P

hauss · March 2007

What is MACO? And does BMW typically charge a training fee for cars purchased in the USA? Boy, these car companies really stick it to you with all these BS fees. It's sinful.

1487 · March 2007

I am not alone in believing that features and performance per dollar is a measure of value. ALl you have to do is read any car mag or online site comparison to see this is the ONLY real way to compare vehicles. If you use subjective criteria to determine which features are valid and which are silly you cannot compare cars objectively. Generally speaking, cars with more stuff for your money are considered better values. This isnt something I have made up by any means. I never said that every car buyer makes a purchase based on value, but value exists nonetheless. No one can argue that a 911 is a better value than the Vette but some people feel the 911 is worth the premium even though they know its not better on value alone.

1487 · March 2007

"Midsize ruins it for me. ELLPS were compact sedans, not behemoth midsizers. Not sure what's entry level or performance oriented about driving a massive vehicle. "

The difference in weight and size is minimal in most cases. You are acting like we are comparing a 3 series to a Lucerne. Most midsizers in this class are about 190 inches long and weigh about 3600lbs. The compacts are about 10 inches shorter and weigh 3400lbs or more. The compact A4 is heavier than some midsize luxury cars so you cannot always associate length with curb weight. I cannot believe that a well tuned midsize car is so huge that it would be noticable on the open road. In tight urban situations MAYBE a midsize car would seem slightly awkward but even that is a stretch.

wale_bate1 · March 2007

there was anything objective about car selection?

Silliest thing I've ever heard. The whole process is nothing but subjective

Worst offenders are the resale righteous, IMO. Non-emotional? Bah. They want to spend as little as the market will allow and hold on to as much as they possibly can when it's time to say bye-bye. That's an emotion. It's called greed...

wale_bate1 · March 2007

Not so, in my experience.

My final three contestants in '03 were the 325iT, 540iT and the IS300 wagon. The '03 540it was not only a work of art, but a delight to the senses in most respects. But the difference in driving enjoyment was pretty substantial compared to the other two. Both of the smaller cars asked for action; craved curves. The larger entry was absolutely competent and capable, but by no means as provocative, even in sport trim. It was bigger and heavier and more refined, and felt it.

Fun factor. In my book, that's both the P and at least half the L in ELLPS. IMO, the current crop have become so overly spacious, they are losing their fun factor, and are being replaced by the new class coming up.

ontop · March 2007

the current crop have become so overly spacious, they are losing their fun factor, and are being replaced by the new class coming up.

Then why are you here ?

pat · March 2007

Ooh ... why are any of us here?? :confuse: 'Cause we're enjoying the conversation? :shades: :P

fedlawman · March 2007

"I am not alone in believing that features and performance per dollar is a measure of value."

Well then, for people who feel this way, a BMW is not a good choice.

But how do you and others ever justify spending more than $20,000 on a new car? The $33,000 G35 is a poor value when compared to the $30,000 Nissan Maxima. The Maxima has the same engine, TWO sunroofs, leather, HID's, Bose premium audio, power/heated seats, etc. 90% of drivers will rarely if ever drive a car hard enough to tell the difference in performance/handling anyways, right?

Compared to the $27,000 Altima, the $30,000 Maxima is a poor value. The Altima with Premium Package (moonroof, fog lights, rear spoiler, heated leather seats, HomeLink, auto-dimming inside rearview mirror, compass, etc.) has the same engine as the G35 and Maxima, is sporty and fun to drive, and it includes most of the luxury goodies too.

But as long as we're talking value here, why not consider the $23,000 Hyundai Sonata Limited? Now here's a car that includes a powerful V6 (more HP than a BMW 328i), double wishbone/multi-link suspension with sway bars, and all the luxury and safety features that the Altima (with leather package) has. I doubt if most people could tell the difference in driving dynamics between the Sonata and the G35 during their typical commute.

Is the G35's RWD, HIDs, and surround-sound audio system worth $10,000? Not to me, it isn't.

fedlawman · March 2007

"If you use subjective criteria to determine which features are valid and which are silly you cannot compare cars objectively."

I can and do use subjective criteria.

I test-drove the E90 and thought it was the most dynamic and fun driving car in this class. I test-drove the G35 30 minutes later and thought the throttle response was sluggish, the clutch was grabby, the steering was overboosted, and the ride was too isolated.

All subjective observations which made the $33,000 G35 a "poor value" in my book.

louiswei · March 2007

Well, since this is only a static display so don't fault me on not incorporating the "performance" and "handling" part into the discussion.

Went to the Atlanta Auto Show over last weekend and pretty much spent at least 10 minutes in every ELLPS that was on the floor. I went with 2 buddies of mine, buddy A drives a 06' G35 coupe and buddy B will be looking for an ELLPS in about 2 years. So buddy A and me took the opportunity to give him some pointers about the current ELLPS market.

Acura TL: still has the best looking interior in class in my opinion, even though I recently found out that Acura uses fake wood and carbon fiber. The quad exhaust was a nice touch on the TL-S but standard rims could use some steroid treatment. I did find a serious flaw in TL's interior though. The handle on the door panel was made out of rubber and one can easily twist it by applying some force to it. This may not be a big deal to some but to an interior [non-permissible content removed] like me could very well be the deal breaker. This indeed is another cost-cutting evidence from Acura.

Audi A4: Nothing to report here, same old interior as my friend's 2002 A4. Good fit and finish but lame in style.

BMW 3-series: My buddies and I all agree that BMW has one of the best interior materials in this class along with Lexus but the style really belongs in the 90'. There was a pre-owned E46 parked right besides an E90 and we all agree that the former has a better interior style-wise.

Caddy CTS: The new 2008 CTS was on the display ramp with a "Do Not Touch" sign to it. From a distance the interior looks great, good body style as well. I must say I am really impressed with this honest effort from Caddy. However, it does look substantially larger than all other ELLPS (including the TL) so to me this is really a 5-series fighter. I was curious about the material Caddy used for the lower part of the door panel so I asked one of the Caddy representatives to see if I can touch it. She told me it's the same material used on the current CTS and then led me to one of them. After inspecting the current CTS I was surprised that the lower door panel was actually made out of soft plastic. Even though it's one of those "spongy" type of plastic instead of the hard rubber kind on IS, it is still WAY better than the hard plastic that Infiniti uses on their G35. Score one for Caddy here. However, the current CTS interior still looks like crap to me regardless of materials.

Infiniti G35: Much improved from the old model but cost-cutting evidence like hard plastics still makes it inferior to its competitor interior-wise. Still don't understand why the control buttons are facing up instead of the driver or at least forward. I was mocking buddy A about not waiting for the new one and after seeing it in person now he is seriously thinking about trading in his 06' for one of the 08's. Again, love the washi aluminum trim. Lexus, are you listening?

Lexus IS: Nothing to add here, best interior in class in fit-and-finish and material used. Second in style only to the TL. Would like to see the metallic trim replace by aluminum during mid-life upgrade but I wouldn't hold my breath to it. Rear seat space is no doubt the smallest among this pack.

M-B C-lass: Nothing to write home about, solid effort for an entry-level luxury car. Doesn't appear to be better than 3er and IS IMO. Since this is an outgoing model I am much more interested in the new 08' C-class.

After the "tour of ELLPS", buddy B thinks TL is the best fit for him. He loves bigger space, doesn't need (ok, want) class-leading power and is not much of an enthusiast. However, that could very well change when it's time for him to make a decision but now TL is definitely the front runner.

wale_bate1 · March 2007

There seems to be, and rightly so, IMO, some debate here on what exactly the ELLPS class comprises. As new entries land on our shores, or hopefully are developed here, the indentified participants change.

The A3 is already part of the game, and not just in my opinion; we will finally get a 1-series here as well. Both of those certainly fit the description and both are far more appealing to me (the BMW on paper) than anything currently being discussed in here, but that's my subjective view of course...

kyfdx · March 2007

I don't think the A3 qualifies, as it isn't a Sedan..

Just my opinion.. I'm not the host here...

hauss · March 2007

If it has four doors though doesn't that make it a sedan? Or would you state it's a hatchback or wagon? What the heck is it classified as?

wale_bate1 · March 2007

That's OK, KY, autosite, last time I looked, was still tracking it as a coupe.

Pretty hard to get a following in a thread on ELLPHs, so one must e'en discuss it where one findeth room...

kyfdx · March 2007

I call it a hatchback or wagon.. but, I'm not the omnipotent arbiter of this discussion..

Lets put it this way... my wife won't consider one, because she doesn't like station wagons..

blueguydotcom · March 2007

CA DMV lists it as a wagon.

A 1 series would be a godsend in this country.

blueguydotcom · March 2007

My sister said "station wagon" with a sneer when she saw the A3. Uh, she drives a cute-ute which is just a tall station wagon. People are odd.

wale_bate1 · March 2007

Ever since the arrival of the Explorer Americans have fallen in love with the wagon all over again. They just don't want to admit it...

If we leave A3 out of the mix here, IMO, we leave out a fairly influential player in the ELLP game. Certainly it's caused more than a few mfrs to reconsider their offerings' potentials here...

andres3 · March 2007

I'll tell you one thing that's a great benefit with the A3 being classified as a station wagon.

1. Insurance company. They view it as a station wagon which means a 30K car costs less to insure than your average 20K car (of course some of that probably has to do with Audi's excellent safety), but most is probably due to station wagons having a history of being driven by conservative drivers.

wale_bate1 · March 2007

"...but most is probably due to station wagons having a history of being driven by conservative drivers..."

BWA HA HAH HAH HAHHH!

Part of my love for the format. That and the fact that in most instances, wagons and hatches are in fact better balanced than their sedan brethren...

If we don't talk out the A3 here, I'm not sure where we'd add it. Seems a part of the mix to me for sure...

1487 · March 2007

A V8 powered 540 weighs considerably more than an IS300 or 325i. Teh difference is probably around 500lbs which is significant. Compare the weight of the G35 or CTS (which is kind o heavy) to the 3 series. The difference isn't that large, especially between the G35 and 3. Same goes for TL and 3 series. A couple hundred pounds between the cars at most.

wale_bate1 · March 2007

That weight was also accompanied by a beefier supension, more power, bigger rubber, bigger brakes and all items aimed at equalizing the experience. Point is a bigger car can be made as sporting as possible and still not have the joyous feel of a compact.

1487 · March 2007

"Well then, for people who feel this way, a BMW is not a good choice. "

Exactly, that has been my point for some time now. BMW isnt offering anything exclusive for me that can justify spending thousands extra. While I may not be able to impress as many valets or brag about "ED" if I chose another brand I will just have to deal with that.

I totally agree that today's midsize non luxury cars are packing so much content that it makes $30k+ sedans look like poor values. Cars arent great investments (contrary to what resale value addicts say) and if I can get the features I want in a non luxury brand and save thousands I will do so. In 2007 a $25k family sedan can run 0-60 faster than a 330iA which is pretty impressive. A few years back 6 speeds were only found in top end luxury cars and now they are found in Jettas and Auras.

1487 · March 2007

The 3 is one heavy car for a compact so I dont know that I would uplift it as a model of weight savings. Most cars 180inches long weigh far less than 3500lbs. The civic is a compact and I believe it weighs less than 3000lbs. If you want joyous feel I think a Miata or Mini is the way to go.

blueguydotcom · March 2007

330i is a 2006 model. Jetta GLI as far back as 2002 had a 6 speed.

FWIW, you can buy used luxury cars and save thousands too. We bought a 30k msrp Audi last week for 8k off sticker. The car's perfect, only has 12k miles on it and remaining 4 yr/50k warranty. We paid less than we would have plunked down for an 07 Accord EX-L V6 (the 4 cylinder is so grossly underpowered it's not even close to equivalent).

You like BMWs? Consider a 2006 325/330i at the end of 07. The 330is will be down around 30k (they're selling in the low 30s right now) and the 325is sub 25k by then for certain. I've already seen lightly used 2006 325is with premium/auto for 26k.

I do agree about pricing for most of the cars. But once I drive a RWD vehicle I know that's worth a big chunk of dough over a bland FWD midsize car.

blueguydotcom · March 2007

What do you have against those of us who feel the compromise is in getting a 4 door car? We're already burdened by that but you want to further hamstring us and say boo to RWD, manuals, driving dynamics. If we want those features we're directed to a 2 seater convertible or a 2+2 FWD hatch. This segment is about performance too!

Honestly, the 3 series is pulling 69-70 mph through the slalom and almost .9gs. Look at the numbers of an 06/07 Miata and Mini. They're not pulling any better but they are major compromises.

And the A3 weighs 3200-3300 lbs. That 300-400 difference is night and day from an IS350, G35, TL, A4, etc. You feel it the moment you accelerate, turn, brake.

bruceomega · March 2007

It's been interesting following the comments on size and interior room for ELLPS cars.

I'm 6' tall, with long legs, and fortunately I find the driver's seat on my 2006 330Xi (and previous 2001 330Xi) has quite alot of front to back travel- I can move it far enough back to be comfortable and that always impressed me about the 3 series. But when I put the seat back like that, there is very little leg room in the rear- I myself could not fit back there, not sure a child could.

If it's just the two of us, my wife and I, then that is a non issue. If we have an occasional passenger or two, then its not a problem to temporarily move the front seats forward.

But, we now have my Mother-In-Law living with us for about 5 months out of the year. She is getting on in years, not as agile as she used to be, and its hard for her to get into the 330Xi back seat. So, when my MIL is with us, we drive my wife's X3 most of the time as its roomier inside and has easier ingress and egress (even though its just about the same length and width as the 330Xi). Same thing when we have other family members or friends riding with us for other than a short hop- usually take the X3.

Being curious about interior space, in case I were ever to get another sedan, I sat in several cars at the DC Auto Show a few months ago to try them on for size. When possible, I would move the driver's seat back far enough for my long legs, then try to sit in the back seat on the driver's side.

The G35 was no better than the 3 series in the rear. Front seat felt a little more confining.

The IS-250/350 was worse in the back, but I didn't mind the front.

The TL was roomier.

The CTS was roomier.

Bruce

pat · March 2007

We can redefine the vehicles appropriate to the topic if necessary - and I'm not at all sure that doing so is the least bit necessary - but hatchbacks, wagons, 5-Series, RLs, etc. will never fit into the definition of Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans no matter how we twist it up one side and down the other.

Let's try to keep our eye on the prize here, okay?

1487 · March 2007

I was talking about 6 speed automatics and I'm pretty sure the Jetta didnt have one in 2002. My point was you can get 6 speed autos in cars costing less than $25k these days when they were only found in luxury brands 3-4 years ago.

what compromise is involved in driving a four door car? Two extra doors might add 50 lbs of curb weight, if that. Hardly a big deal in my book. Beyond styling differences (not every car looks better with two doors) a sedan and coupe version of the same car are largely the same.

I dont have problem with RWD although I fail to see why a RWD has to cost more. BTW, as we've already noted there are RWD cars available for less money comparably equipped than the 3 so I dont see why people are saying "the 3 is worth a premium because its RWD". So are other cars in this class.

The A3 is another overweight small car.

1487 · March 2007

If one loves BMWS and has no desire to buy another brand one is unlikely to be impressed by other brands. If one only likes BMWs ANY other brand of car would be considered a "poor value". Most people (media included) feel the G35 is a relatively good buy. Fully loaded I think it's about $6k-$7k less than a loaded 335.

wale_bate1 · March 2007

is on my short list as a possibility, but not the sedan. Too big, and where the styling idiom works on the coupe, it fails utterly on the sedan, IMO. Every time I see one of the sedans on the road I register "Buick" in the back of my mind... :surprise:

circlew · March 2007

I definitely felt the same on the G sedan 2006 and back. The 2007 looks much better to me.

Regards,
OW

louiswei · March 2007

another board with the title "Up-n'-Comers" which includes cars like the A3, TSX, the future 1-series and many others that might fit in that description. That case those whom think the ELLPS are turning into Buicks will have a place to go to talk about the light, agile and highly manuverable vehicles.

wale_bate1 · March 2007

"That case those whom think the ELLPS are turning into Buicks will have a place to go to talk about the light, agile and highly manuverable vehicles...

Which are becoming the new ELLPS.

Entry level...

hauss · March 2007

Okay fine, then I propose MLLPS for the cars that were originally considered in this thread. Mid Level Luxury Performance Sedans. How's that?

allargon · March 2007

The A3 is a wagon. It's not even a hatch.

Sedans have trunks not hatches.

Malibu=sedan
Malibu Maxx=hatch/wagon (IMHO it's a hatch!)

RWD cars cost more to manufacture than FWD cars. I remember an article in BusinessWeek explaining how Toyota/Honda/Datsun(Remember them?) introduced FWD cars to the States when the Big 3 (or was it 4 back then?) were pretty much all RWD. The imports were of course a lot cheaper due to lower (back then) labor costs in Japan and the smaller packaging.

I think it got resolved awhile back that the TSX isn't really a performance sedan being that it's a rebadged European Accord. I dunno.

Mid-level performance sedans? That sounds like we're settling. :P There's already a LPS forum for RL's, STS's, 5-series, etc.

Regarding the CTS size, I do believe that Caddy initially tried to market the CTS as a 5 series fighter. However, the CTS lacked the refinement and gadgetry to honestly call itself a 5 series fighter. In Europe, Caddy has the BLS to compete with the 3 series. Do they price the CTS like the 5 series in Europe?

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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