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Comments
Your question lends more credence to the 335 regarding the power boost in this class. It already has class-leading chassis. for mid-$40K, it is a bargain vs the S4.
IMO, it will be a big challenge for the other candidates to keep in step with the improvements of the 335 as "Leader of the Pack". Perhaps someone can advise pending improvements for the 3 series for 2008.
Regards,
OW
http://www.edmunds.com/audi/tt/2008/featuresandspecs.html#100852083
Really, what an odd thing for you to say. And for my money, only the Cayman is sexier but it's also 15k+ more expensive.
Didn't mention the convertible as the S2000, TT convertible, Boxster are anything but stunning looking. They're all pretty darn ugly in my opinion.
My everyday drivers had been a Maxima and Civic, so this BMW blew me away. I can't really describe it, other than saying I felt like I was in total control of the car the entire time. Usually I am discouraged from speeding not just by the speed limits, but by the capability of the car. Cars seem to hit a speed where it just feels extremely dangerous and a bit out of control.
I was doing 100-110 mph at certain areas with the BMW, and I never felt out of control at all. I felt in total control at 35 or 100 mph.
The acceleration was also amazing, for a 215 hp engine. It felt much faster, and the thing that I was taken by was the it gave me the right acceleration at every point. What I mean by this is I've driven cars faster linearlly (a 3.5 Altima for example), but some of those cars just seem like a cannon ball, fast but a bit out of control. The 325i seemed fast in a useful sense, giving me the right acceleration at every point.
Also, I was doing this thing where no matter how fast I was going, I could keep myself focused on the edge of the lane divider, and along curves, just hit that lane divider perfectly where I felt like, almost like controlling a video game car or something. It just felt so in control.
Now, having said that, here is my question. Is all this I'm describing a BMW thing, or is it more of an ELLPS thing? Will I get this type of drive in cars like the G35 or TL, or is this type of drive what makes BMW BMW?
" ... 3 is too small for above average size driver ... "
I'm 6', with long legs for my height, 230 pounds, and I do not find the 3 series too small in the driving position. Once I get into the car, a 2006 3 series, I find its quite roomy.
I do not find myself wishing for a larger car for front seat room, but I would want a car with more rear seat room if I were carrying extra passengers on a regular basis.
Bruce
It's exactly what makes a BMW feel like a BMW. Even at 150 the car's rock solid.
I don't get it. So prior to the e92, it was not #1? What was your pecking order before the 335i was introduced?
Is your only criteria pure hp and torque?
On another board I listed about 10-12 categories and rated the 3 cars in that segment. The one with the lowest score was the winner in my eyes.
Ergonomics
Ride
Handling
Power
Transmission
Projected Reliability
Projected Resale
Cost
Features
Tunability
Interior Materials
Trunk Space
Maintenance Costs
Gas Mileage
Interior Space
Obviously you can also make one of two categories your "trump" category. If the car has a 1 for this specific category it's equivalent to a -1 (ie, it's weighted more heavily).
I'm not saying this is for everyone but I can see how someone might rate the power low on the 06 330i and in the end see the G35 or IS350 winning, while the 335i now trumps all comers in power so his focus may have shifted.
"3 v. CTS. CTS is a joke, next. "
According to whom? It would be nice to provide some context for a statement like that. While personal opinions are everyone's right we would like to know the basis for calling any vehicle a "joke". Once it has been stated that one is totally biased in favor of one particular vehicle without regards to facts about performance, price, handling, styling, quality, etc. it becomes hard to take that person's evaluations of other cars seriously. Why bother to comment on cars other than the 3 if one has no interest in acknowledging the merits of those cars? I dont like the camry but there arent any legit reasons I could tell someone to stay away from the car. Its a great car for getting from A to be in comfort but it's not for me. I cant with a straight face say its a joke or insult those who chose to drive it.
I dont know that I have "attacked" the 3 at all, in fact that is kind of funny. The 3 series doesnt have many flaws to talk about but the problem is that it's excellence does not make it's competitors nulll and void. Point is most of the cars being discussed here are excellent and some people seem incapable of accepting that. The 3 may be great but its competition is very good. Some here have contended that not only is the 3 best in class, but its peers are totally unacceptable for the savvy sports sedan shopper. I dont buy that for a second. The people at GM, Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, etc. are not stupid and they know what it takes to make a sporty sedan, even if BMW has been at it longer. I suppose it is blasphemous around here to suggest we are close to parity in this segment but someone had to make the statement. If we want to go back to the status quo BMW praise fest I'll give up and join the chorus.
335i = 32
G35 = 45
A4 = 49
TL = 50
IS350 = 60
CTS = 82
I didn't include styling in my criteria as that holds zero sway over my decision. I didn't give any bonus points either. Straight up, my rankings are just my opinion on every element.
And you wonder why you get such strong responses here? Why do you have to be like that?
NOBODY here has ever said the 3-series is flawless. The only thing I've seen repeatedly is the opinion that it is the best "performance sedan" in this class, with the G35 coming in a close 2nd place.
We've said repeatedly that if "ultimate performance" isn't your priority, then the G35 or TL is probably a better choice.
My problem with your statements has been (and continues to be) that you refuse to admit that the BMW's performance advantage, however great or slight you think it is, doesn't count for a hill of beans. We're talking in a "performance car" forum, and the best performing car on the list isn't worth consideration because only badge snobs and poseurs drive them? And you know this because you've looked at people driving BMW's and you can just tell they're not enthusiasts.
A number of us here are passionate about performance, and if we didn't need a back seat and trunk on a regular basis, we'd probably be driving a Cayman or Z4 Coupe - I know I would. For many of the people shopping for an ELLPS, they are looking for a car that is the CLOSEST THING to a sports car that has four doors and some luxury thrown in.
These are the people that don't want the FWD handling of the TL or the hanging revs/awkward clutch engagement of the G35. I had high hopes when all the buzz first came out about the Lexus IS350. I imagined a sport sedan with the reflexes of a 3-series with the reliability of a Lexus. Well guess what? Lexus pulled the trigger but they missed the bullseye. Same for Infiniti - it's close, but dynamically, it's still a notch below the BMW.
If infiniti or Lexus would build a better BMW, I'd buy one. Until then, BMW is still the only game in town for an enthusiast.
I'd say you're pretty liberal with the term excellent then. I would at best on a scale of 1 to 10 rate a 335i with ZSP and 6 speed a 7. More likely a 6 with RFTs. But I'm a very hard marker and the BMW 335i has several deficiencies I can't overlook: weight, size, interior size, RFTs, mileage, power, transmission, body roll, reliability, cost, resale.
The 3 may be great but its competition is very good. Some here have contended that not only is the 3 best in class, but its peers are totally unacceptable for the savvy sports sedan shopper.
I'd rank most of them 4s and 5s.
I suppose it is blasphemous around here to suggest we are close to parity in this segment but someone had to make the statement. If we want to go back to the status quo BMW praise fest I'll give up and join the chorus.
I don't see parity. But then again ask me about 5 restaurants and I can rattle off exactly what I like and don't like at each one. I see clear lines pretty instantly when it comes to critiquing anything involving my money, my stomach or my time.
Amen. I recall being crestfallen when I first read the IS350 would come only with an automatic. Of course, then I drove it, saw Lexus' pricing and their inane "ordering" scheme. G35 is still the second best choice but I sure wish Infinit would make it a tougher choice.
According to C&D:
"The G35 scores points for comfort, capable moves, and thrust in surplus, but BMW still builds the best tools for driving."
About the G35 - "...ubiquitious VQ series 3.5-liter V-6...generates stocky midrange torque and, when kept below 4500 rpm keeps the many [Nissan and Infiniti users of the engine] scooting with authority...[but] things go less tickety-boot at high rpms, with vibrations up the shifter and through the floor betraying the rapid percussions of big-bore pistons."
In summary, CD said, the G35 Sport has "all the ingredients except refinement."
About the 328i - "BMW’s 3.0-liter silk-weaver...simply can’t be detected through the stick, steering wheel, or pedals...the steering operates with light effort but delivers copious road data...longer drag-strip times [but] who cares when rips to redline are such exquisite pleasure?"
Bottom line, said Car and Driver, the 3 Series is "worth the extra expense over the Infiniti."
Many BMW fans and owners have openly criticized the E90 3 series for being overweight, too big, not as driver oriented, and even more disconnected than the previous body style. But we just like to drive home the point that even though it isn't as good as the good old days, we still like it the best in today's ELLPS segment.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
But wanting every other ELLPS, that's including IS350, G35, CTS and TL to be like the 3-series does not qualify as "open minded" to me. Me personally I think what makes today's ELLPS market so interesting is because every car has its owner personality instead of being another 3er with a different badge.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Not if cost is a consideration; 3 series is less expensive over 2yrs, 3yrs and 6yrs.
Also, if one wants Euro chic bling, 3 series is hard to beat. Although not much of a factor for me nowadays, I'm sure it's high on many 3 series customers' mind. 3 series are very common in congested cities like NYC and Boston . . . not exactly places for passionate sporty driving. Nor is the standard equipment RFT nowadays. Some critics use towing hitch as a litmus test on whether the driver really needs an SUV; IMHO, RFT is a much more valid litmus test on whether the driver really is passionate about sporty driving, as in proof negative.
(sic for the impared)
2:The best sports sedan for the dollar, though, is the RX-8. Luxury it isn't though. But it is without a doubt the most fun you can have for $25K out the door. To get a better ride, you need to spend $35K for a base 3 series. Yes, it has 4 doors - that two open backwards and it is styled to look like a coupe doesn't fool me. I count 4 hinges and 4 door handles.
But zero luxury. If they made a luxury version with a supercharger for $35K... Whole other story(300hp, RWD, 3000lbs, loads of luxury.. definite competitor potential).
P.S. There is an aftermarket supercharger for it(turbo won't work at all with it due to its design, which isn't liek the older RX-7) that does boost it to 300HP or so. Would be so nice to get it with that from the factory, though.
Although not necessarily "Euro chic," the Acura's are likely to be more reliable over the long term too.
And for some reason, the TL is still one of the best selling vehicles in this segment.
Keep in mind, for MY 2006, the IS 250/350 and the e90 was introduced. Wasn't that long ago. BMW recognized the need for more hp and torque and within a year of the intro of the 330i, the 335i comes out. The new G was just introduced a few months ago. Soon, a new CTS, A4 and TL will be out (2008). I would hardly call those cars 3-4 years out of date.
Really, what an odd thing for you to say. And for my money, only the Cayman is sexier but it's also 15k+ more expensive.
Odd? The link you provided is for a FRONT WHEEL DRIVE, 4-CYLINDER Coupe version of the TT. And it still weighs 100 lbs more than the Cayman, in spite of having nothing in common with a real sports car. The Cayman only costs $15k more? You could give me a FWD 2.0 TT and I wouldn't pay to insure it. Scroll down on your link - the 3.2 Quatro coupe version weighs in at 3,262 lbs, 400 lbs more than the Cayman, 300 lbs more than the Cayman S. And the convertible weighs in at a mere 500+ lbs more than the Boxster.
Didn't mention the convertible as the S2000, TT convertible, Boxster are anything but stunning looking. They're all pretty darn ugly in my opinion.
Yeah, that TT Coupe is a real head turner. Did they include the Audi version of the New Beetle's dash mounted vase in the redesign? Or did they just parts share that one directly?
(From another post) I'd say you're pretty liberal with the term excellent then. I would at best on a scale of 1 to 10 rate a 335i with ZSP and 6 speed a 7. More likely a 6 with RFTs. But I'm a very hard marker and the BMW 335i has several deficiencies I can't overlook: weight, size, interior size, RFTs, mileage, power, transmission, body roll, reliability, cost, resale.
Hard marker - ha! I'd say you're exceedingly liberal with the term "stunning". Based upon your criteria - similar to mine- I would rate the a grossly overpriced, fugly FWD 4-banger 3,000 lb coupe about a 2. But deduct 1 for false advertising as a sports car.
Just so my previous point wasn't lost: Audi is the LAST manufacturer that deserves any credit for "weight saving measures". The TT is still a COW. And, IMO, the A4 will not get any closer to being a serious ELLPS by trimming a couple pounds when it needs to lose several hundred.
My point was that until now, there were some that perceived the past 3 series were/are underpowered. That HP "perception" is now ultimately eliminated from any argument in the E92. *MY* pecking order was the same regardless.
I can not comment pre-2006 (E90) since I do not have first hand experience but for me, it was #1 when I made my decision. In other words, 255 HP vs. 280 HP in the G for '06 did not do it for me considering all of the other factors considered.
Regards,
OW
Wow talk about not being able to see the forest from the trees. Are you suggesting that everyone that drives in Manhattan traffic has to drive an Accent?
Regards,
OW
Not at all. Unlike some over-bearing nanny-wannabes, I don't think anyone should be told how to spend their own hard earned money, least of all by the government.
to each his own. I have less interest in the weight, complexity and poor implementation of an AWD system, so i wouldn't go near Audi's mediocre-to-lousy quattro.
Hard marker - ha! I'd say you're exceedingly liberal with the term "stunning". Based upon your criteria - similar to mine- I would rate the a grossly overpriced, fugly FWD 4-banger 3,000 lb coupe about a 2. But deduct 1 for false advertising as a sports car.
Subjective, totally. I think the 08 TT is a brilliant design; nothing in the ELLPS is even remotely attractive on a purely aesthetic level. I can't comment on performance as I haven't driven one. My ranking of a 335i is based on the all around car. As an overall car in the world it's a 6, borderline 7 (remove the RFTs to get that high).
the A4 will not get any closer to being a serious ELLPS by trimming a couple pounds when it needs to lose several hundred.
For my money, even an acient A4 is quite a bit beyond cars like the IS350 and CTS. I'd take an A4 frontrak 2.0T for 30k before I'd pick up an IS350 for the same price. Heck, the IS could be cheaper and it still wouldn't register as a choice.
Like I said, the phenomenom of BMWFS giving out free fake money in the form of lease residual, fake but good for car payments on BMW's, is changing the cost equation dramaticly.
But that's the only scenario where it pays off.
Paying $10,000 every 2 years for the benefit of having a brand new car every 2 years isn't cheap. At the end of 6 years, you've paid out $30,000 and own nothing.
I know it's apples and oranges (leasing is a great solution for many people - business owners especially), but personally, I'd rather pay cash and own the car outright. I'll keep the car as long as I want, and then pass it on to my kids if it's a good one (like my V70).
I wouldn't agree with that at all. The ELLPS is bloating and numbing at an alarming pace. Evolution usually implies improvement in the function of a species. ELLPS today v. an e46 (1998 chassis) - no contest, the e46. The only things my e46 ZHP sedan really lacked were power, weight reduction and an LSD - the M3's engine and LSD would have solved two of those.
To each his own.
When Lexus tried to listen to the "real enthusiasts" and put forth the IS300, which was more in common to E30 than E46 was in terms of driving dynamics and riding quality, the market place gave it a big thumb-down. That pretty much proved that not only people don't always buy BMW's for performance; the "real enthusiasts" are not even in the driver's seat in terms of new car sales.