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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    The accord coupe is much bigger and it's a FWD. There's no comparing the two. The Accord coupe is titanic-sized, like the e92 3 series coupe.
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    The accord coupe is much bigger and it's a FWD. There's no comparing the two. The Accord coupe is titanic-sized, like the e92 3 series coupe.

    Sorry but if the price point is going to be the same or more it's pretty comparable. If these guys who are saying it will be $28K for a 128i and $35K for a 135i. You can bet it's going to be compared with a lot of cars in that price segment which will kill off the 1 series.
    i'm BMW fan but I also know they can only charge so much for a 1 series which is very small and limited and unless that back seat is comfortable and/or the trunk or back seat can hold gold clubs many BMW owners will not buy it and new buyers will be turned off by such a high price for such a small car.
    I know the Accord is FWD but it's a lot less after discounts than $28K and it holds 4 people very comfortably.
    BMW should make just an M1 coupe if they want $35K for the car. I still think they will charge less than people are thinking. Because for almost the same money the 3 series is considerably more useable. Yes the Accord is huge but it sure looks better from the pics I've seen. The new 1 series screams rental car to me.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Steve, you sound like the people who bash the 318ti. And yet the that car's value is through the roof today as many bimmer fans realized how great it is.

    25-26k for the 128 and 31k or so for the base 135i. As all non-M car BMWs are sold at a discount, expect to buy them for about 1500-2k less than MSRP. ED pricing puts them a good 5k below the MSRP.

    The 3 isn't the car for people looking for a fun, small, nimble RWD coupe. I had one...it didn't fit the bill.
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    Steve, you sound like the people who bash the 318ti. And yet the that car's value is through the roof today as many bimmer fans realized how great it is.
    25-26k for the 128 and 31k or so for the base 135i. As all non-M car BMWs are sold at a discount, expect to buy them for about 1500-2k less than MSRP. ED pricing puts them a good 5k below the MSRP.
    The 3 isn't the car for people looking for a fun, small, nimble RWD coupe. I had one...it didn't fit the bill.


    I'm not bashing the 318ti. I just don't think it compares well to the 1 series.
    Price is going to be a factor even tho some factor in eliteness. I maintain my guesses for pricing but that's for base MSRP. What you can get the car for is another matter with too many variables. Let's see how well BMW does at selling the 1 series at a high price point. Honda sells more accords which sticker out about that price yet sell for considerably less. But of course the Accord is a huge car.
    The 3 series sadly is now overweight hopelessly so. Great car but not what it once was. The 1 series can do a lot but not if they price it as high as cars which will be more desirable to the average car buyer. I know, I know BMW isn't for everyone. But BMW wants to make money and they need new blood in the showrooms. The 1 series is small and will probably be a great car if they don't kill it with over pricing.
  • Karen_CMKaren_CM Posts: 5,027

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  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    The 1 series can do a lot but not if they price it as high as cars which will be more desirable to the average car buyer. I know, I know BMW isn't for everyone. But BMW wants to make money and they need new blood in the showrooms. The 1 series is small and will probably be a great car if they don't kill it with over pricing.

    I don't know what overpricing is for a BMW. The 3 series supposedly is overpriced yet they move 100k of them a year. 31-32k seems totally reasonable for a RWD performance coupe with 300 hp. I can't think of another coupe with rwd and 300+ hp for that kinda money.

    For me, if they had a 1 series sedan, I'd be at the dealership today putting down my deposit for a summer of 08 delivery (I'd do ED to save 4-5k off MSRP). Shrug, 32k seems like a steal for that kind of performance, luxury and quality. Nothing else exists like it.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Shrug, 32k seems like a steal for that kind of performance, luxury and quality. Nothing else exists like it.

    I agree.

    I'm pretty sure it wouldn't match the 3 series in sales numbers given that it's more of a niche market, but I think it would do quite well. Probably at least as well as BMW have done with the Z4 which is also a niche market and where they face (IMO) superior competition in the form of the lower priced Honda S2000 and higher priced Boxster S. The 1 series represents a niche that they could potentially dominate.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,540
    31-32k seems totally reasonable for a RWD performance coupe with 300 hp.

    i think steve and i have been on the same page on this one so far. and, yes, we both agree with you. but many folks here seem to think the car will be $35k, and that's the pricepoint at which it won't seem like a good deal.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Well, purists who want a REAL 3 series of yore experience will get the 1 series with nothing but a stereo and AC. It'll be going out the door in stock form for a tad over 30K I bet.

    Shoot, I remember my friend's 2002 in college. That's a real BMW and always will be. A 3600lb+ jellybean...

    My mother's 2000 LeSabre weighs about the same as the new 3 series. No, really.

    Park Ave:
    39.5 ft turning circle
    112.2 Wheelbase
    206.8 L x 73.5 W

    BMW 335i
    3593 lbs
    36.1 ft turning circle
    108.7 Wheelbase
    178.2L x 71.5W

    Looks good so far, right?

    Guess which one is which? This is the real shocker.
    3593 lbs
    3591 lbs
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    35k is unrealistic. That would make it 3k less than a 335i. There's no way they're gonna price it that close to the 3. The gap between the 3-5-7 is much larger than that.

    If you're claiming 35k, then you're also saying the 128 will start at around 31k. That simply can't be. It'd be starting 1k lower than the 328i.

    26k-27k would put the 128 a few k over the Cooper S and that'd leave the 135 to roll in at 31-32k. Add sport and premium and the car is already at 35.5k then.
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    26k-27k would put the 128 a few k over the Cooper S and that'd leave the 135 to roll in at 31-32k. Add sport and premium and the car is already at 35.5k then.

    The MINI is not a factor it is a niche car with no BMWNA support. They have their own dealerships and are very limited in the markets they sell in. For me I'd consider one but the dealer would be 1.5 hours away and that's a long haul for an oil change and never mind a repair where they have to keep the car for a few days.
    BMW will price the 1 series below their own 3 series. Realistically they have a certain Gap between all the cars.
    I'm going with the Coupe because the 1 series is initially a coupe. Oh and this is MSRP not what TMV is since it doesn't exist on the 2008's 3 series the 5 series is 2008 prices and the 1 series is a 2008. Still the numbers should hold.

    The Base 328i Coupe MSRP is $35,300
    The Base 335i Coupe MSRP is $40,800
    Difference between the two cars $5,500

    The Base 528i Sedan (no coupe available) MSRP $44,300
    The Base 535i Sedan MSRP $49,400

    The difference between the 528i and the 535i is $5,100
    The difference between the 328i and the 528i is $9,000
    The difference between the 335i and the 535i is $8,600

    There is no way the base MSRP on the 1 series Coupe will be $30K

    Looking at the figures it makes sense for BMW to slot the 1 series under the other car makers noses. based on the above figures and sure it's all MSRP but discounts cannot be counted on, MSRP is a given.
    I see the Base 128i MSRP at $26,300
    and the Base 135i MSRP at $31,400

    I think this is what is most likely based on extrapolating figures between the 3 and 5 series.
    However I think to pull in more buyers and of course with obvious discounts the 128i could sell for as low as $25K base and the 135i at $30K. Options will boost up the prices. I still think it's high for the market but what the market will bear is another thing.

    I think a lower price will draw in more customers and new blood but I'm not BMW. But these figures seem to be pretty close. Value at this price point will be determined by the buyers.

    Oh I grabbed all figures for MSRP off of the Edmunds Website. I did not use TMV.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,389
    But which one hits the wall first on a skid pad test?

    Regards,
    OW
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,540
    we are all in agreement. It is not each other who we need to convince. All 3 of us think the 128 should be somewhere around $25-$27 and the 135 to be 29-32.

    if you read through the 1-series discussion i posted a link to previously, there are others here who think quite differently, however.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    if you read through the 1-series discussion i posted a link to previously, there are others here who think quite differently, however.

    Yes we agree, I was just posting to the read not just to an individual in this case. My bad. :blush:
    I think people can think whatever they want but when it comes to buy it that's when the tires hit the road.
    At least the guys who think it will sell for $35K will be able to get a few options with the extra money. ;)
    I think I am posting on 2 BMW groups for the 1 series and I think I have a 3 series group as well as some others.
    I've gotta add a couple more threads and remove a few as well.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    I hope and pray that you guys are correct and prices are as low as you predict. Personally, I don't see it.

    Consider this - how much did the E46 330i coupe sticker for? On paper, the 128i should be a dead ringer for this car in performance - and it's even built on a version of the same platform.

    According to NADA, Edmunds, and KBB, $25,000 doesn't even buy a used 2003 330i coupe! Why on earth would BMW sell this much performance for the price of a VW Jetta?
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,540
    how much did the E46 330i coupe sticker for?

    i don't see why this matters. its a smaller car. that's like pricing a mazda3s based on a mazda6 4-banger just because they have the same powertrain.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,957
    Actually, I think you can buy the Mazda6 for less than the Mazda3 S.. :surprise:

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,540
    well, MSRP and street price are 2 entirely different things. the cheapest mazda6 is PRICED $2k more than the cheapest mazda3s.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Fed, the world has changed. An e46 coupe was outclassed power wise by 2005. And Nada is on crack; their numbers are always wrong.

    The 1 series will compete with the Jetta GLI and GTI for buyers. The other close competitor will be the A3. Those start at 24k. It's fighting in a different division than the 3 series. The 3 series battles the IS, G and A4. The 1 will duke it out for the high end economy performance cars (WRX, GTI, Mazdaspeed3) and top out at the mid end of the entry-lux world (probably max at about 40-41k).
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Easily. They have deals and rebates that make the 6 a 16-17k car with the 2.3 while the Mazda3 with the 2.3 doesn't get the fat rebates.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    "Street price" or not, that doesn't mean that you can't get a 6i for less than a 3S, and I think that's the point they're trying to make.

    Locally, a 6i sport with no options retails for $19,825. a 3s Grand Touring with no options retails for $20,490.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,957
    I never stated that the 128i and the 135i would start at $30K and $35K, respectively... Just that those would be typically equipped coupe prices.

    If you price out a 328i or 335i coupe, with any sort of typical options, you'll see prices of over $40K and $45K, respectively...

    I think my guesses are spot on... but, they are still just guesses. I think the rest of you are over-estimating BMW's desire to be price competitive. These are niche vehicles.

    Plus, in almost every case, by the time cars arrive in the USA, they are priced several thousand higher than early speculation. Guess high, and you have a better chance of being correct.

    Guess low at your own peril... ;)

    regards,
    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Kyfdx, I agree about typically equipped. In fact you might be low. As an automatic, zsp and prem add about 5k to the price. I'd figure 31k for the average MSRP of the 128 and 37k MSRP or so for the 135.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,540
    then it is a point that has no bearing on the discussion. we are discussing it in terms of MSRP on the 1-series, NOT street prices. Comparing street prices of one car with sticker on another is never valid. the point is where it will be priced in relation to the manufacturer's own lineup.

    Whether or not a 3-series coupe will need to be discounted because of the existence of the 1-series is a WHOLE nother topic, and THAT is where we could compare actual sale prices of other cars (and, honestly, not a bad discussion, i don't think).

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,540
    well, we'll just have to wait a little longer and see if fedlawman has to eat a bug. ;b

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    then it is a point that has no bearing on the discussion. we are discussing it in terms of MSRP on the 1-series, NOT street prices. Comparing street prices of one car with sticker on another is never valid. the point is where it will be priced in relation to the manufacturer's own lineup.

    Let's check the replay, shall we?
    Locally, a 6i sport with no options retails for $19,825. a 3s Grand Touring with no options retails for $20,490.

    Last time I checked, when a car "retails" for a certain amount, that pretty much means MSRP, not "street prices".
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,957
    Okay...

    It's my fault for continuing to lead us off-topic.. Just follow the link about "eating a bug" above, and we can continue the 1-series pricing discussion, in the 1-series thread...

    Sorry,
    kyfdx
    visiting host

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,540
    and... a loaded up model vs a base model means??

    Last time I checked, when a car "retails" for a certain amount, that pretty much means MSRP, not "street prices".

    nope. you are still buying from a retail store, even if you pay a discounted price. when best buy has a computer on sale, the sale price is what it "retails" for. MSRP = manufacturers suggested retail price.

    but, really, this is getting silly. the plain and simple of it is a matter of showing how the BASE MSRP of a 1-series, regardless of the fact that it has the same powertrain as a 3-series, should and probably will be cheaper than the BASE MSRP of the 3-series with said powertrain. That's all. That's the comment I responded to with my comparison of how a BASE 6i MSRP is more than a BASE 3s MSRP.

    I guess to answer your comparison ... YES, I agree with you and totally expect a loaded up 1-series to exceed the MSRP of a base model 3-series.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    I never stated that the 128i and the 135i would start at $30K and $35K, respectively... Just that those would be typically equipped coupe prices.
    If you price out a 328i or 335i coupe, with any sort of typical options, you'll see prices of over $40K and $45K, respectively...
    I think my guesses are spot on... but, they are still just guesses. I think the rest of you are over-estimating BMW's desire to be price competitive. These are niche vehicles.


    I think you will find that BMW has to start being competitive the 3 series has cars that are catching up and for less money. Sure BMW is great but it's like playing king of the hill back when we were kids.
    sooner or later you're going to go down. BMW has pretty much been the class leader for a long time. That tends to make them lazy and their competitors very motivated.
    As someone points out the 1 series is going to have a lot of cars to compete with and BMW is not as much a niche market as before. It's car used by average guys, accountants commuting to work. It's not a Blue Collar muscle car but BMW's are pretty common place. Th e1 series might be great but it's got some work ahead of itself to remain the class leader. Price for small cars really matters and the 1 series is small. If the price is big it will be cross shopped heavily and while many guys can and will throw $35K at one that won't be common after a while.
    Low or high it doesn't matter They sell the hatchbacks here and I can call up and get a price but it's about $35K for a 4 door hatch with a 4 cyl. But cars are all overpriced here especially foreign cars but I think BMW is actually made here. It's like 1.5 million PhP a bit over $32K actually for their lowest base model. Very few sales tho and imports are a lot cheaper. Here you'll pay $36,740 for a 2007 V6 Honda Accord! No chance of a discount, no free floor mats, nothing, pay or don't buy it. The price is set in stone. Oh wait you do get free window tint, sorry for the error.
    It's going to be interesting to see what the 1 series MSRP's at and that will also position BMW for the future.
    For me if it's too high for what you get I'll just buy something else. :shades:
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    then it is a point that has no bearing on the discussion. we are discussing it in terms of MSRP on the 1-series, NOT street prices. Comparing street prices of one car with sticker on another is never valid. the point is where it will be priced in relation to the manufacturer's own lineup.
    Whether or not a 3-series coupe will need to be discounted because of the existence of the 1-series is a WHOLE other topic, and THAT is where we could compare actual sale prices of other cars (and, honestly, not a bad discussion, i don't think).


    Absolutely spot on! How can we compare all options and trim or invoice and rebates and everything else? We can't! I don't know why some guys don't understand MSRP. It's the easiest way to make a close guess on the value of a car that has yet to be released.
    street prices are meaningless because a dealer in one area does volume and discounts heavily and another wants full MSRP.
    The 1 series has to slot under the 3 series, if it overlaps by too much then it will eat into the sales.
    I know we see pretty much eye to eye on this. I don't know why some people to expect it to be an overpriced car which will not hold up in the market place at a high price point.

    The 3 series will probably not compete too heavily as it's a much larger car and more luxury for more money. That is why the price has to be low on the 1 series. It won't do any good if it steals sales from the 3 series. It's supposed to add sales.
    You're right, it is a good discussion. ;)
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