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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans
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Comments
We just got 25-27mpg on our highway tanks on a 2500 mile trip last week. Granted, that doesn't mean anything because our conditions aren't comparable to anyone else's, given varying temperatures, driving style, altitude, terrain, weight, wind speed, tire pressures, A/C use (basically on by default in EX/Touring) and other variables. For what it's worth, we had a full load of 2 adults, 3 kids and a week's worth of luggage and cargo. The best tank was over hilly terrain with minimal A/C use and was over 27 mpg. The worst was 25mpg in mostly flat terrain but constant A/C use. I usually cruised at 75+ mph except for the construction areas and urban traffic congested areas. I'd guess that cutting that down to 65-70 mph with minimal A/C use and a few hundred pounds less cargo would probably net me the EPA rating of 28 mpg and be more similar to how those controlled tests are done. For someone cruising over 80 mph (where VCM cuts off and drag is a big factor) and running the climate control in auto mode, it would be no surprise at all to see highway mileage in the very low 20s.
If you're looking for a new van and want to compare fuel economy, the numbers from the EPA, Motor Trend, Motor Week or Consumer Reports probably won't reflect what you actually get because of all the variables. What you want to know is how vans compare in their controlled tests. They all show the Odyssey VCM to have the highest fuel economy of tested vans, so that's an indicator it will also get the best fuel economy in real world conditions compared to other vans. Well, unless there's some conspiracy among them to cheat in favor of the Odyssey, I guess. In any case, you can't cheat the laws of physics when it comes to things like weight, wind drag at high speeds or tire presssures. They affect all vehicles. Granted, most minivans are within a few mpg overall so it's not like we're talking about full size SUVs.
They're industry rags, you usually don't see on news stands unless you look for them. There's no fluff pieces, no opinions spouted, usually cold hard analysis of vehicles, engineering features etc... They'll cover the latest technology for making foam injected seats, or new headlamp technology, vehicle networking, software.... They're more like Foxs News - They report, you decide.
Yes, okay, fine. I get the fact that these are not a bunch of fluff/buff rags.
That's not my point. You obviously don't like CR/MT/C&D/etc. etc. etc. You seem to take this stance because they don't give "factual" data regarding the Odyssey and the DCX vans. You DO like the "factual" reporting in the industry rags. And you bought a DCX van.
I'm simply asking WHAT WAS IT in the "industry rags" which led you to a DCX van over something else?
Was it reliablity, safety features, fuel economy? What was it in these publications which sent you to the local DCX dealer?
That's not my point. You obviously don't like CR/MT/C&D/etc. etc. etc. You seem to take this stance because they don't give "factual" data regarding the Odyssey and the DCX vans. You DO like the "factual" reporting in the industry rags. And you bought a DCX van.
I'm simply asking WHAT WAS IT in the "industry rags" which led you to a DCX van over something else?
Was it reliablity, safety features, fuel economy? What was it in these publications which sent you to the local DCX dealer?
I don't dislike CR/MT/C&D/Automobile/Road and Track/PM etc....I get them all. But I'm an engineer and I like to know how things work, how they're manufactured and why they work (or don't). I like knowing that DCX pioneered foam injection of seats back in 1996 to eliminate uneven seams and poor stitching....quite the geek I know. I like knowing that Honda places their sliding door track in the exact center of the minivan for balance, whereas DCX "hides" the track higher in window area just for a cleaner appearance. I see in the rags that one isn't vastly superior to the other, each has merit.
I based my decision on many different features and criteria. I drove many Odysseys prior to my 2005 DCX. I drove 2004 Odys, almost buying one before 05s came out, but I decided to wait for 05 Odys. I was one of the first to drive the new Ody at West Bloomfield Honda, then I drove the Ody at about 4 other dealerships. Then I drove a Grand Caravan....greater towing capacity, better warranty, good performance (a whole 1.4 seconds slower than Ody), smooth quiet ride, then a friend offered me his employee price which amounted to almost $10k off the sticker. Easy choice.
Did I look at the rags...yeah, all of them. Did I agree with everything they wrote, of course not. I made up my own mine based on my situation.
Edmunds paid $ 29,970 for their 1999 Odyssey EX. Edmunds sold it for $ 22,000. Isn't the actual depreciation $ 7,970?
They probably sold it to Claires for a sweet deal, hence the $22k!
Fair enough. I think those who let the rags do all their thinking for them are bound to be disappointed occasionally. The tester's preferences don't ALWAYS agree with the general public.
I was just getting the impression that you disagreed with some of the stuff in the fluff/buff rags because there was data in the industry rags that contradicted it.
Reliability data for example. Has there been anything in the industry/engineering rags which would indicate that the expected reliabilty of the current generation Ody would be worse than the DCX vans? (and I'm not talking about odd noises from the windshield or perceived trim alignment issues; I'm talking about major items affecting the functionality of the vehicle).
So what numbers do these industry magazines report for minivan fuel economy, acceleration, braking, etc? If they have model reviews or a minivan category comparison, please reference the relevant issues as I'd be interested to read them.
You said previously that you "use CR for 0-60 times or other measureable data," but then dismissed their fuel economy measurements. As another engineer, I'm curious to know how you differentiate among which data from any of these magazines is useful and which is not. If these magazines do frequently have errors, biases or conspiracies that affect their results, how do you know which particular results to dismiss and when to rely on anecdotal owner accounts, instead?
I've used Mobil 1 5W-30 with 3K/3mo. change intervals, and changed ATF every 20K since purchase in July 1994. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones!
As I've said, they don't do comparisons, "COY" or "10 best". They tend to focus on new technologies and designs.
There is some data you can't disbute i.e...dimensionals like wheelbase, track, interior volume, noise level etc...you get consistent results. With typical car rags there are many more variables such as the condition of the vehicles they're provided (broken in or not?), different drivers (leg foot or not)...with a very small sample base - ONE of each.
CR/MT probably did get "X" mpg in their testing...i'm not dismissing it, just asking why is mileage soo off from real world mpg for a lot of Ody owners? And it's not just the Edmund's site, there are others sites like odyclub etc... Some Ody owners are getting very poor mpg. Is this cylinder deactivation all it's made out to be from DCX/GM/Honda? I'd personally would look at something with the highest number of data points, not one car rag or test loop. But then again, I don't have to - I'm hitting EPA numbers or better with my DCX.
No, you're in the Silent Majority.....You maintain your vehicle and it takes care of you. I know many DCX owners, 5 time repeat owners...with never an issue/problem. But you always get one or two people that get a lemon in any brand and it fills them with hate towards that brand for life. (not naming names)
Same with the Odyssey IMO.
You seem to take great....well, pleasure is probably to strong....fun in pointing out the complaints in the Odyssey Problems and Solutions board and then insinuate (particularly to socalawd) that these are representative of all Odysseys.
As the owner of an '05, I'd say this is not the case. Perhaps I'm a member of the (not so) Silent Majority of Ody owners who are more than satisfied with their purchase.
No, but when someone gets on their high horse about the greatnest of their Ody or how terrible their DCX was, while dismissing real owner complaints.....I'll point it out.
Probably the only Minivan owners who could boast, and don't are the Sienna owners.
I've already mentioned a number of factors that can cause such variations. Of course, if these factors work against the Odyssey moreso than other minivans and also don't show up on any of these controlled tests, that would be an interesting phenemonon. It's also possible Honda somehow cheats or that there is some sort of collusion among the EPA and these magazines to promote the Odyssey.
Lacking a very large, randomly sampled, scientific survey of actual mpg from owners, I guess we'll never know for sure. Until then, I'll place my bet on the consensus of fuel economy from measurements by the EPA, Consumer Reports, Motor Trend and Motor Week. In any case, I'm impressed at our fuel economy, given the fact of hauling a family around town, inside a 4500+ pound vehicle. We're getting a couple mpg more than our 2001 Odyssey in the same type of driving conditions; not bad considering the extra weight and power. As always, YMMV.
I said the DCX was OK, not terrible! Thats your spin on it. As far as the Ody it's been fine I like the drive comfort and safety features better than the DCX van is that getting on my high horse?? You should use the data from real owners(Combined with other data) but some people only point out the negitives. If I were to do that about DCX vans,others might call it looking for dirt. The double standard is alive and well in America!
Probably the only Minivan owners who could boast, and don't are the Sienna owners.
Again making it sound like people who own a certain brand of car makes them act in a certain way. Well I've owned a DCX van, and now also own a Subaru(which I like more than the ODY
Ok this seems really strange because someone else has been pushing the same stuff. Ther rear bealt on the DCX vans are a different type then the Ody's. I don't think that makes them inferior! Maybe the belt had too much slack or the child was too far forward.
Yeah, no kidding- the timing couldn't be better. Dozens of posts on this very topic just happen to be in the last few pages of a number of minivan threads...
IMO, you won't get any closure asking here, based on the previous poster's attempts. Consult a lawyer who specializes in vehicle related issues.
Yeah, no kidding- the timing couldn't be better. Dozens of posts on this very topic just happen to be in the last few pages of a number of minivan threads...
IMO, you won't get any closure asking here, based on the previous poster's attempts. Consult a lawyer who specializes in vehicle related issues.
I find it hard to believe that someone buys 2 Caravans, joins and on the very same day runs to this thread first (instead of DCX problems/issues) and posts. Smells fishy to me!
Why not buy 1 new Grand Caravan and 1 Odyssey so you could post as an owner of both sides of this forum?
I had a 1993 Eagle Vision, the sister to the Intrepid. We kept it until 2004 when we bought our Civic. The a/c went out in 2004, we replaced the rubber motor mounts in 2001. The clock spring in 2003. Those were the only things that went wrong in 11 years of owning that car. I think the Arizona heat done in the motor mounts.
We are going on 16 months with our 2005 Dodge GC, and so far, have did nothing but changed the oil and filters. Before the Eagle Vision, we had a 1988 New Yorker we kept for 5 years and only needed the auto switch repaired on the a/c.
We are going on 16 months with our 2005 Dodge GC, and so far, have did nothing but changed the oil and filters. Before the Eagle Vision, we had a 1988 New Yorker we kept for 5 years and only needed the auto switch repaired on the a/c.
Really not that amazing I've had only 1 instance in over 20 years and probably 500K miles where I've been stranded. My company 1991 dodge caravan broke a motor mount. It happened at the toll booth(heard a big clunk)at dodger stadium! Later when I tried to start it the motor had come up so far it tore the a wire out for the starter motor. Towed and fixed the next day! My intrepid had only tranny replaced and air conditioning in 100k miles really not too bad!
I looked to see if ya had any other issues you mighta left out! The guys here say I only give part of the story well here's the other part!
Honda vs Ody post # 4221
However, it's other factors which bug the heck out of me with our Caravan. The two motors for the rear vent wings failed almost simultaneously only a couple of years after purchase; the front and rear A/C evaporators have been a constant source of trouble; occasional ABS problems that raise their ugly head, and then go away for some unexplained reason; the flourescent display for the radio/CD player/clock died; intermittent problems with the body computer which contols the gauge package, and most importantly, the paint flaking off the roof and the hood (This one really bothers me - it's totally unacceptable!). On the other hand, the exhaust system is original after 11 years - certainly the longest period of time I've ever owned a vehicle without replacing the exhaust system, and the high-level interior looks new after over a decade of use. And, no suspension problems except for replacement of the front struts at around 90K miles.
I've used Mobil 1 5W-30 since the inception, and change it religously every 3K miles. And, I change the ATF and filter on the transmission every 20K miles. All in all, it could certainly be worse. Would I buy another DC minivan? That's a good question, I really don't know. It would be a tough call, as it seems other marques are having their share of problems as well.
What I really liked about cab forward, was that even though they were front wheel drive, the engines weren't transversed. They sat in there just like rear wheel drive and you could reach most everything on the engine.
Hope your daughter is okay. Look through the posts made during the past two weeks and you'll find numerous discussions started by one member who reported a similar experience. If you'd like to know if any others have had this problem, your best bet is to read the complaints filed with the NHTSA, and then file one while you're there.
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Clock Springs scare me more than anything else we sell. You have constant moving/rubbing parts everytime the steering wheel is turned.
You left out the "other part" in w9cw's post, where he wrote his 12 year old van had been very "reliable" and was on the original transmission. Take all the problems he's listed over the 12 years/159k miles he's owned the van, and I think it has done fairly well.
You left out the "other part" in w9cw's post, where he wrote his 12 year old van had been very "reliable" and was on the original transmission. Take all the problems he's listed over the 12 years/159k miles he's owned the van, and I think it has done fairly well.
Really nice to hear your opinion!
Not needed with the wonders of modern technology. Perhaps he typed in "Caravan problems w9cw" into the Edmunds 'Search This Discussion' box or into Google. Takes only a few seconds...
Yep the 5 speeds had a engineering design problem! This resulting in 2nd gear oil cooling(All trannys inspected and oiljet upgrade if no dicoloration, tranny replacement if there is wear/discoloration). The recall was for most 2001-2004 vans. The warrenty was extended to 100K miles for this tranny! There is also some issues with the third gear clutch pack.
That you would go to the lengths of searching back 10 months for data to support a post... indicates that you make a sincere effort at posting accurately/honestly. You are one of the more entertaining members on our minivans board, and I do enjoy reading your posts. So, don't get to :mad: at me. :shades:
I do question your strategy of opening a battle on another front though. Best to finish dennistc off first...then go on to poor ole w9cw.
See, socalawd? He fell for it. You can tell your crack team of grad student researchers to relax, now.
Good, paying them all that overtime was killing me! :P
In the immortal words of Homer!
Doh!! :surprise:
I do question your strategy of opening a battle on another front though. Best to finish dennistc off first...then go on to poor ole w9cw.
Seems that w9cw is a very reasonable guy. Just wanted to point out nothings perfect. As for dennis there's no finishing him off. I only hope to cancel him out!
Keyword: HOPE
Dream On!!!!
Actually socalawd has done a fine job of "canceling" you out. And vica versa. But, Honda Ody owners generally have more firepower/ammunition to throw out than DCX mini owners... with all things being equal(IMO). So, if I were scoring this ongoing minivan "debate" between you two, socalawd would have the edge.
Ody owners can throw out the various auto rags reviews and specs indicating the Ody to be reguarded as the "best". Performance, resale value, and saftey points goes to the Ody.
DCX owners fire back with practicality and ease of use of stow-n-go, sales numbers, as well as getting the most bang for the buck.
So, the question shouldn't be which is best. But, which minivan best suits my particular needs.
I'm sure you know(EXL with RES), but I'm not comparing features(really no way to do that)but I have compared the amount of issues, seat comfort, braking and powertrain impressions. Usually if I compare models I use the 2005+ models of same content. GC SE with LX,DGC SXT with EX. Etc. ETC.
Well said just cause I didn't need it dosen't mean someone else won't use it! I wanted exactly what I got, if I coulda got it for 5K less than I'd even been more happy!
Was the vehicle actually sold? If it was sold, why the N/A in the wrap up?
Impossible to compare depreciation when fictitious numbers are used for the value when a vehicle is sold. :confuse:
Read the Wrap Up for the 1999 Odyssey EX. An overly bloated, un-realistic TMV was used for value at the time it was sold instead of the $ 22,000 actually received. This inaccurate value was compared to the MSRP of $ 26,215 and NOT the $ 29,970 ACTUALLY paid. The 1999 Odyssey actually depreciated $7,970...which is not very much but the REAL depreciation of the 1999 Odyssey was about 20 times as much as was reported using the TMV and MSRP.
Could this be the reason some people have lost confidence in the TMV?
Could this be the reason some people have lost confidence in the TMV?
Well it seems like it was figured wrong,but all publications usually aren't right on. Also most people will tell ya they got more for their car than they did. It kinda like how'd you do in Vegas. Usual answer is I came back even. :P I paid 16,1??.00 for my Caravan after 6 hours of negotiating! Got 5,300(KBB aprox 6600 TMV aprox 6300 TIV) at trade in time after a hard sell at 4,500(Car had less than 50k mile and was 50 moths new). I told them I was leaving with one van. I tried to sell it for a while but there wasn't alot of interest. I wish I could have gotten more!
I checked out my resale value a few weeks ago from a number of different sources. My GC appears to be worth almost what I paid for it, although I got an additional $4k off for Employee Pricing (real employee pricing). Factor out the EP deal I got and even the average buyer's resale is probably higher than what the "experts" (who don't take into account the rebates, financing or other dealer incentives) say!
Key word APPEARS Try and sell it for that!
The market seems to be full of DCX vans. I think I'm gonna start having my staff update a monthly used car update. One of the main factors in resale is quantity so lets look at 2005's. In a nationwide search on autotrader 9425 DG Caravan 2008 Caravans and 5346 Chrysler T&C's for a DCX grand total of 16709. Now 2005 Odyssey's there are 352. For a huge almost 48:1 ratio. Now I'm always hearing DCX the most sold minivan(2.4:1). Seems like DCX is the most resold minivan. Looks like 20 times more people want to sell their DCX van. :surprise:
I'm always hearing how DCX sells so many to fleet....NOT people, and if you look at the listing, the majority are "SE" models that fleets usually purchase.
I believe the market place is working, and prices you currently see on Autotrader reflect the correct price based on quantity, condition and other market factors.
Please try to be a little creative here, and use something other than "keyword" - maybe something you come up with yourself, instead of using me for inspiration.
I believe it's a asking price, I've never payed close to the asking price for a car! But maybe some people, just pay what people ask! BTW someone wanted 100K for thier van. You should go buy it!
Please try to be a little creative here, and use something other than "keyword" - maybe something you come up with yourself, instead of using me for inspiration.
I thought it lacked any originial thought that why I reused it.
I'm always hearing how DCX sells so many to fleet....NOT people, and if you look at the listing, the majority are "SE" models that fleets usually purchase.
I went over the first 600 vehicles in the prefered Dodge CG all the way down to 16K(asking) 331SE and 279SXT so they are in the majority but not by much. You are right lots of rental and fleet vehicles.