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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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Comments

  • 4aodge4aodge Member Posts: 288
    According to edmunds.com, the Chrysler Town & Country either tied or beat the Honda Odyssey in the following categories.

    Engine Performance-Chrysler
    Transmission Performance-Chrysler
    Breaking Feel/Performance-Tie
    Suspension Performance-Chrysler
    Tire Performance-Chrysler
    Steering Performance-Chrysler
    Fun To Drive-Chrysler

    Seat Comfort Front-Chrysler
    Seat Comfort Rear-Chrysler
    Wind and Road Noise-Chrysler
    Rattles and Squeaks- Tie
    Climate Controls/Stereo Operation-Chrysler
    Secondary Control Operation-Chrysler
    Cupholders-Chrysler
    Exterior Design-Chrysler

    The only category where the Honda really stomped on the Chrysler was in storage.

    Akin67, even edmunds.com says the Chrysler beat the Honda in almost every test they ran in their minivan comparison for the 2001 model year, although it did not win 1st place. And no, I am not a politician.

    -Adam
  • 4aodge4aodge Member Posts: 288
    Eneth opens his last post by saying he doesn't hold a grudge against Chrysler but then look at next several anti-Chrysler PARAGRAPHS of his message...
  • 4aodge4aodge Member Posts: 288
    I don't hold a grudge against the Honda Odyssey but I would never buy one because they are boxy, boaring, bland, comfort feature-LESS, unreliable pieces of plastic...
  • akin67akin67 Member Posts: 62
    Right Edmunds thought so highly of the Chrysler that is why Chrysler didn't come in first in the comparison tests. Oh wait they didn't come in second either. Hold on, not even third.

    That is right, Chrysler came in 4th on Edmunds comparison test of 6 vehicles. And you know where the Odyssey came in? That's right number one again. But that is no surprise, the Odyssey has been ranked NUMBER 1 in every comparison test since it came out in 1999. YES Every comparison by every automotive authority.

    What makes it even more pathetic for Chrysler is that Chrysler has been building minivans for over a decade now, and here comes along Honda and the first minivan they themselves build and it blows past Chrysler's top of the line Town and Country.

    You talk about Honda quality and problems with the Odyssey, why don't we compare the Odyssey to all of the problems the Chrysler vans went through in the first four years of their introduction? Chrysler is notorious for having mass recalls after every new product rollout. Look they just came out with the new Jeep Liberty and sure enough not even out a year yet and they are already recalling 120,000 vehicles for airbag defects.

    Please do not mention quality and Chrysler in the same breath. The American consumer knows of Chryslers quality or lack thereof.

    And lastly Honda has been selling them as fast as they can build them. What other car do you know that still has a 3 month waiting list going into the fourth year of its introduction? Chrysler on the other hand can not give them away. 0% interest, cash back, they are using every gimmick in the book to unload their product.

    You can say all you want, but the consumer has already determined which the better van is. In fact they prefer the Odyssey so much that they are willing to pay the full MSRP and more at times. And even waiting three months is not swaying their decision to buy the Odyssey.
  • 4aodge4aodge Member Posts: 288
    That's right, the Chrysler Town & Country came in 4th place out of 6 vehicles tested in the 2001 minivan comparison test. Why? For two main reasons, it is expensive and it lacks a third row fold away seat.

    It is too expensive? Oh common, when you test the ultimate minivan in terms of comfort features and luxuries, of course it is going to be expensive! It lacks a third row fold away seat? So what? Not everyone NEEDS that feature on their van and many seem to prefer the 50/50 split rear bench seat configuration over the third row fold away seat. Hey, it's whatever floats your boat...

    Akin67, lets get real about reliability. The Honda Odyssey hasn't exactly been the penacle of reliability for that brand. If you want to talk about reliability, vistit the Honda Odyssey problem board here at Troll Hall where you can find all the horror and complaint storries you want about Odyssey owners with broken power sliding doors and failing transmissions.

    Now, about the 2001 Jeep Liberty recall. If I can remember correctly, Honda issued one or two recalls for the 1999 Honda Odyssey. One of which was concerning the power sliding doors. These recalls are to be expected for first production year vehicles, such as the 2001 Jeep Liberty and the Honda Odyssey when it was first being built after its redesign in 1999.

    As for what people prefer, you can site all of the rave reviews you want for the Odyssey and try and relate that to how much people like the car, but Chrysler still sells more vans than Honda. I think we all know that if Chrysler produced just as many vans as Honda does they too would not have to resort to rebates to quickly move their product as the demand would increase greatly. To me, that concept is very simple and easy to understand but it seems that some Odyssey owners just don't get it.

    Along with our trouble free 2000 Chrysler Town & Country w/33k miles, we also own a 2001 PT Cruiser Limited. We have had the PT for about 5 months now and already have over 10k miles on it. This car rocks! My parents drive it an average of 80 miles per day and the car has been excellent as we have not had a single problem with it. Too bad many of the Odyssey owner's can say that about their vans here at Troll Hall.

    Akin67, Honda did not "blow past" Chrysler on its first try with the Odyssey. If you do your research you would know the Odyssey, which wasn't very popular by any means then, was in production well before the 1999 model year...

    -Adam (16/M/CA)

    TWO TROUBLE FREE CHRYSLER VEHICLES
    2000 TOWN & COUNTRY LX
    2001 PT CRUISER LIMITED
  • phkckphkck Member Posts: 185
    Well my 2002 T&C Limited is better than your Odyssey so there! OK would have said that when I was 12. I recently did buy a 2002 T&C Limited. Yes the issues of reliability were on my mind. The 7yr 100K powertrain warranty was enough for me to overcome my fears.
    The Ody was a close second, just preferred the T&C. Both makes serve their purpose, can't we all just get along!
  • akin67akin67 Member Posts: 62
    Honda did not produce minivans before the 99 model year. They were rebadging the Isuzu van as they have been doing with the Isuzu Rodeo (Honda Passport).

    So in fact it is a brand new vehicle in a brand new factory so if they had some quality glitches in the first model year it is certainly expected and understandable. I recall reading about dozens of recalls from Chrysler minivans when they first came out.

    If you want to compare a comporable van to the Honda just compare the Town and Country not every other Voyager and Caravan. They cover for the most part a different (more lower end) segment of the market that Honda is not vying for.

    Once again I reiterate since the Town and Country sells about the same number of Vans as the Odyssey why are people so eager to wait for the Odyssey and pay full MSRP yet the Town and Country needs significant rebates to sell the same amountof vans? Honda is pumping them out as fast as they can yet Chrysler is operating plants at a mere fraction of capacity.

    And if you are so happy about your T&C why are you on the Honda Odyssey board always knocking the Odyssey (I don't mean this board we are on now, this is totally legitimate for you to compare the two vehicles). You will never catch me on the T&C board knocking the T&C? What is your gripe with the Odyssey?

    Also I own a 2000 Ody EX and have had no problems with it whatsoever. And I am trading it in for a 2002 with a depreciation of only $4000 over 2 years. I bet you can not do that with your T&C.
  • vchengvcheng Member Posts: 1,284
    akin67: You have it only partly correct. The Honda Passport was a rebadged Isuzu Rodeo. BUT: The old Honda Odyssey with 4 car-like doors 4-cyl power and the magic seat was made by Honda, and rebadged for sale by Isuzu, as a reciprocal arrangement. This old body style is still sold in Europe as the Honda Shuttle.
  • akin67akin67 Member Posts: 62
    I was under the impression that both vehicles were manufactured by Isuzu and rebadged as Honda's.

    Thanks
  • akin67akin67 Member Posts: 62
    Why do you assume that a review is biased because it rates the Odyssey number one. Were they biased when they ranked the Town and Country better in some categories? Or are they only biased when they are giving the Honda better reviews?

    What about Car & Driver, Road & Track, MoterTrend, Automobile Magazine, Consumer Reports, Consumer Guide, Popular Mechanics, NY Times and basically every other automotive authority since the 99 Odyssey came out. Please tell me there is a worldwide conspiracy to to make the Odyssey out to be the best minivan when in fact it isn't. Man this is some conspiracy they even have the consumers collaborating.

    We should get to the bottom of this. Lets get Ashcroft to investigate.

    Folks get real.
  • pat84pat84 Member Posts: 817
    I have owned a 96 grand caravan, which I traded in on a 99 Odyssey. There are advantages to each. I personally believe that the actual differences between the 2 are really relatively small
    The hidden seat, or triple zone temperature controls may have distinct personal advantages to one buyer but not to another. One vans seats may be more comfortable as a matter of personal preference.
    I do miss the infinity sound system, the variable speed rear window wiper, the auto door locking at 16 MPH, the heated element at the base of the windshield, the easier to adjust roof rack, and the spare tire system of the DC.
    I have not had to bring my Odyssey to the dealer to correct any problems ( I got the two recalls done at scheduled service intervals. - my van did not have the problems). I had my DC back to the dealer 7 times to get the remote door opening system to work. (on one of those visits, the only guy who could do the work was not in). Some Honda owners have their share of complaints, too.
    I traded in my DC with 72 K miles I now have 50 K miles on the Odyssey. I plan on keeping it until it needs replacement, hopefully well past 72k miles
  • akin67akin67 Member Posts: 62
    I enjoyed reading your post. Unlike some of the other posts that have recently dominated this board, I think your post is objective and the type of post that provides useful information for those considering either of these minivans. I agree with your sentiment that both vans have items that are likely to appeal to different individuals. And when you find a van that has more of what you want that becomes the better choice for you.

    I hope you continue posting your experiences with it.
  • steelengsteeleng Member Posts: 71
    I have read the Edmunds comparison, as well as almost every other minivan comparison, and find it to be fairly comprehensive but rather subjective and not completely logical. To me it would make sense to compare vans that are comparably equipped and then compare price or to compare vans that are comparably price and then compare equipment. The Edmunds compares fully loaded vans and then docks the T&C for being expensive. I do not think I have read anywhere on this board that anybody disagrees that the T&C has more features and creature comforts than the Odyssey. For the 2001 model the Oddysey did not even have leather as an option yet the T&C Limited that they tested was covered in it. Also, their top 14 features were extremely subjective. Many of them I very much agreed with and others I thought were a complete waste for a comparison (navigation system, entertainment system, in-dash CD changer) even if they were nice.

    I guess that what I am trying to say is that people need to look at the information in the comparison and ignore the rankings. If a fold-away rear seat and adjustable middle seats are important to you then the Oddysey is a great choice. If better handling and more creature comforts are important to you then the T&C is a great choice. Figure out what features are important to you and then make an apples to apples comparison based on the vehicles that have those features and the price of those vans.
  • pat84pat84 Member Posts: 817
    Thanks for the compliment. I consider that some may be looking to choose between these 2 vans.
    One of the advantages of Daimler Chrysler vans is that you can get them built to suit your needs. The Honda has 2 trim levels. So it may be easier for some to get more of what they want by special ordering a van from DC. I consider that a point that has been a little over looked. .
    I have rented a few DC vans on business trips. They have always been the standard length. The last one, last May, was a Sport version. I have always thought the shorter van handled better than my grand caravan The sport version was really good in traffic. They are also newer and have been improved, I am sure. The older, shorter ones were always easier to drive in traffic, too..
    As for handling differences, It is a little difficult to describe. The DC has a tighter, more responsive feel to the steering than the Honda. The Honda drives and rides smoother, more like a sedan than the DC, which is more like sports car. The Honda, with its independent suspension, holds the road better. I can comfortably drive the Honda at higher speeds than I could my 96 DC. The Honda handles like I am still going 45 . The wind noise does increase. The brakes on the DC were better. I could stop quiker with the 96 DC. The Honda weighs more, so it would take less distance to stop the DC with the same brakes. The Honda out accelerates the 3.3 L DC I had. It feels like the Honda is much quiker, but, it probably is not near as much as it seems when driving.
    The Honda has a shorter turning radius. I can do a U turn in about 1/2 a lane less than I could with the DC
    I would bet the DC would do a faster slalom type race if they ever did that for minivans. Now all that boils down to is going to be a matter of personal preference. I would say the differences are between Sports car(DC) or a sedan (Honda). Long rides in the Honda are more comfortable.
    So what I would suggest is that one test drive both; but. finding a Honda to test drive is not very easy.
    As for comparison tests between the two in magazines, Edmund's, etc, I am reminded of what Vince Lombardi once said about football. "Statistics are for losers".
    It is a choice the individual buyer makes, presumedley after doing some homework. If you only looked at the problems posts at Edmund's, you would probably take the bus and never buy a vehicle.
  • arbarnhartarbarnhart Member Posts: 23
    It blows me away how defensive some people are about their choice being the only correct one and the other choice being totally stupid. We bought an Ody almost 2 years ago and have been happy with it. We narrowed the choices down to the GC and Ody. The triple stroller (we were still expecting the triplets at the time; they are now about 18 months old plus we have a kindergartener) would fit better in the Ody well, we could afford to wait a couple of months for the van to come and on the test drive an Ody seemed marginally better to my wife and she would be the primary driver.
  • phkckphkck Member Posts: 185
    I am sure we would have been happy with the Oddy. For us the T&C was a good choice. Can't even use the buy American as an argument as out T&C was built (well) by our neighbors north of the border.
  • gglenn1gglenn1 Member Posts: 5
    Cars, trucks, and yes...VANS. Quality is something the folks at Chrysler dream about. Their dealers treat their customers like garbage. Why would anyone ever put themselves through such a nightmare by even considering a Chrysler product. I should know. I ONCE subjected myself to the garbage produced by Chrysler.
  • steelengsteeleng Member Posts: 71
    If you have something constructive to say then by all means add to the discussion but your last post was about the same as the quality that you attribute to Chrysler. What year and model was it that soured you to Chrysler anyway? I currently own a '95 Chrysler Cirrus that I bought new in December '94 and it has been a very good vehicle. My parents own a '94 LeBaron which has served them well and now has 120,000 miles on it. It hasn't been perfect but has served them well. My sister also has a '93 Grand Voyager that has served them well and now has well over 100,000 miles.

    BTW I once had a Honda and it was always breaking down (1974 CVCC). If I let that experience sour me I wouldn't even consider cars from what is now one of the highest quality manufacturers on the market.
  • gglenn1gglenn1 Member Posts: 5
    The crap I had was a 97 Town & Country. Electrical problems(windows, both drivers and passengers motors went before the vehicle had 31,000 miles. The engine developed a stuck lifter at 38,000 miles. (The engine had Mobil 1 in it since its first oil change). And the alternator went out at 42,000 miles. My 94 Civic has 160,000 miles on it and I DID have to replace a clutch on 12/23/2001. The 2002 Odyssey I just purchased has a TOUGH act to follow in the Civic, but it can't be as bad as the T&C. As I was saying, CHRYSLER BUILDS CRAP!!! Sure there are more horror stories out there if you ask. You must work for a Chrysler Dealer!!!!!
  • phkckphkck Member Posts: 185
    Hoping my 2002 does not have same problems as your 97. But did get extended warranty.
    And gglenn1, let it go. The anger is scaring the rest of the town hall folks. And by the way good luck with the Odyssey, great vehicles.
  • steelengsteeleng Member Posts: 71
    There are more horror stories out there. There are stories of Audis with sticky accelerators, Hondas with bad transmissions, Fords with blown head gaskets, Toyotas with engine sludge. There are also a lot a success stories from all of those same manufacturers. It just amazes me that there are so many people who are willing to condemn a given manufacturer forever because they got a bad car. I'm not saying that I would immediately buy from the same manufacturer but I would continue to moniter their progress in the future. Your 2002 Oddyssey does have a tough act to follow but if it had been a '99 it may have been a repeat performance of your T&C.

    By the way, I currently own three vehicles by three different manufacturers. I drive what suits my needs, my tastes, and my wallet and I am not loyal to any brand. I also tend to be a little more forgiving of minor problems because I do most of my own work and can often turn a $200 repair into a $40 repair.

    P.S. Good job getting your clutch repaired in the future (12/23/2001). There is nothing like getting something done ahead of schedule:)
  • akin67akin67 Member Posts: 62
    Lets try to keep this board civilized. The whole value proposition of message boards are the collective wisdom resulting from all of its participants. If the participants go away the value of the board diminishes.

    Also agree with the notion that the same car manufacturer can produce very good quality cars and some bad ones. I think we have to be more forgiving especially if it is a new product from a new plant. I had a 1998 Volvo S70 and had tons of little problems with it and coulnt wait for the lease to expire. I learned then to stay away from first model year vehicles.

    I now have a 2000 Odyssey EX and have had no problems with it at all. Currently trading it in for a 2002 EXL-with NAV. The new vehicle should be coming in, in about another week (been waiting 2 1/2 months now). And the dealer is providing me $24,000 for the 2000 Ody so the amount I have to pay is minimal. The Odyssey really does retain its value. I could have gotten more by selling it direct but didn't want to deal with all of the hassle. And by trading in I also save on sales tax (only have to pay sales tax on the difference between the trade in value and new vehicle price).

    Hopefully the 2002 Odyssey will be as problem free.
  • gglenn1gglenn1 Member Posts: 5
    Slip of the finger! Clutch replacement date on the Civic was 12/13/01. Thanks for pointing that out!!
  • enetheneth Member Posts: 285
    One major point being missed here is that it does appear the the 2000+ DaimlerChrysler minivans appear to be better-built and more reliable than those of previous model years.

    The Honda Odyssey appeard for 1999, and the Toyota Sienna, a year before that.

    Coincidence?

    I don't think so - competition improves the breed, and just as the arrival of the Camry and Accord forced the U.S. (and German, in the case of DaimlerChrysler) automakers to improve quality and reliability, the competition from Canada (and Alabama) and Kentucky forced D-C into addressing long-standing issues with its minivans.

    So even if you don't buy one, if you're in the market for a minivan, you benefit from the presence of the Odyssey and Sienna in the marketplace.
  • shanersshaners Member Posts: 14
    My folks bought a T/C only because they couldn't get a Honda. It is a '01 and they have driven alot... over 24000 miles this year. So far it has been trouble free, and they are happy about everything except the resale value (milage taken into consideration). I just picked up my Honda EXL-RES this week, and although it is light years ahead of my Olds '00 Premier as far as quality, I will have to take it back because it pulls to the right way to much...

    I do believe that the ride quality and fit/finish in the Oddysey is better than DC (and GM). If you live for bells and whistles, then you'd be dissapointed in the Honda line-up. The '00 Olds I traded had more equip than the EXL-RES Honda has for '02. I still like the Honda better though...
  • 4aodge4aodge Member Posts: 288
    Back when we had our 1998 Grand Caravan SE we took a trip to Hawaii and rented a 1999 Oldsmobile Shilouhete minivan and I was very dissapointed in the interior build quality of that car. I almost felt as though it was an embarrasment to GM to have a van with such poor interior quality. The dashboard was plasticly, the seat cloth was cheap, and the power sliding door was broken (granted, this was a rental car). I'm saying all of this while comparing the Oldsmobile to a rather lowly 1998 Grand Caravan SE with the base interior cloth and only several options.

    Thus, I can see how someone could say the Honda Odyssey is light years ahead of GM and it's fleet of minivans. While the Honda interior may look better put together and assembled, I think the Chrysler dash is much nicer to look at and doesn't look as dull and boaring. I think that also adds to the "sporty" feel when driving that many reviewers attribute to Chrysler's vans.

    Just some observations...
  • jodar96jodar96 Member Posts: 400
    OK. Here is my opinion. If I can get Chrysler to give me FREE 10 years/100K bumper to bumper warranty, I will choose Chrysler; otherwise I choose Honda. I will even ignore Chrysler's poor to no resale value. Our van at $25K new, is not worth more than $9K ( I will be lucky if I even get that)

    we do have a 97 Grand Caravan LE that we bought new. it has 89K miles on it. Its lay out, function, its operation of sliding doors, and solid feel of its door shutting is unmatched.
    BUT(and it is a big but)Chrysler reliability is not there.
  • enetheneth Member Posts: 285
    4aodge,

    There's a world of difference between the 97-2000 vans and the 2001+ models from DaimlerChrysler - the assembly quality and materials have improved considerably. The same can be said for the newer LH and JA cars as well - so there may be some hope that Daimler brought some substance to go with the flash and dazzle that Chrysler had been known for in the prior decade.

    Now, with it appearing that the large vans from Dodge will be replaced with Freightliner-badged Mercedes vans sold through Dodge dealers, it would appear the integration of the companies is going even further - one has to wonder whether, with most of its own platforms (Neon/JA, LH) about to disapper in the next few years, how Chrysler Group will design its next generation minivans - will they be Mitsubishi or Mercedes platforms?
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Member Posts: 1,739
    Why don't you check out the dash in this DC van. I'll bet it isn't prettier than Hondas.

    What is your response to this story.


    http://www.detnews.com/2001/autosconsumer/0112/16/a01-368193.htm

  • 4aodge4aodge Member Posts: 288
    I hope you won't ask DTKWOK to drop a bomb on my house after you read my message. That would be very similar to what happened to the lady in her 1999 Town & Country when it errupted into flames. I honestly can say that burning up in your own car has to be one of the worst ways to leave this world.

    I can also say I'm glad Chrysler is finally going to get themselves together and recall the affected minivans. Although I am troubled as to why it has taken them so long to get all of the replacement fuel parts for these vans. I remember reading something a few months ago that said 2000 model year vans built after a certain date were not effected, and my 2000 Town & Country is one of those vans. Thank god.

    No one here ever said Chrysler made the safest cars on the road. So I think I'll brace myself for what the Odyssey fans here will say. No, I do not believe that all Chrysler vans are time-bombs waiting to explode and no one should buy them as a result. The article states that the 2002 models are not effected (and I am asumming 2001 models as well, since my 2000 model is not effected by this).

    But nevertheless, the 25 inccidents where fires have been reported isn't good. I'm just glad Chrysler says it is finally going to recall the effected vehicles. I just hope they don't flake out, again...

    -Adam
  • 4aodge4aodge Member Posts: 288
    As for wheather or not the dash in the picture of the 1999 Town & Country that burned up is "prettier" than the dash found in the Honda Odyssey, I don't really know. Thats a tough one...

    -Adam
  • enetheneth Member Posts: 285
    The sad part about the minivans is that DaimlerChrysler already recalled almost a million first-generation LH cars to fix a similar problem. I know of at least one person who had an Intrepid catch fire because of a fuel-rail leak - fortunately, no one got hurt (though the car was a total loss).
  • dkrabdkrab Member Posts: 77
    This isn't a new problem that started with the '96 model year. The leak on my '91 Grand Voyager fuel rail was EXACTLY as shown in the illustration in the article. At the time (Feb of 99), Chrysler had already recalled the LH cars for this problem, so I called them about getting mine fixed on their dime. I had 87K miles on it. They flatly refused. I had an independent shop fix it to the tune of $890.

    Now I see they STILL had the SAME problem at least up into the 2000 model year. That is NINE YEARS! What in the world does it take to get this company to fix defects! Transmissions bad starting in '89 all the way up to '98 at least; fuel rail leaks for nine years; paint peeling on '89 thru '96 at least; rear tailgate strut mounts breaking off and allowing the heavy tailgate to fall; tailgate latches that could not take a hit and stay latched. And these are just the things I see as I look through all my repair reciepts. Other items that happened to my van: piston rings siezed to pistons, causing huge oil consumption and requiring overhaul at 58k; starter failed around 80K; water pump failed at 58K; A/C compressor went at 98K (that one cost me $1200). There's more, of course, but it would be a boring read. I can't believe, now that I have reviewed my van's repair history, that I really seriously considered buying another DC van. Man, they drive good and look good. In my opinion, though, it's a siren's song.

    Anybody else with Fuel Rail leaks on any year 3.3L or 3.8L DC van? Let us know if DC paid for the repair or not. I think this thing is much bigger than it might first appear.
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Member Posts: 1,739
    I guess the answer to which van is the best is both are nice vans but the problem is they both have had problems in the past and only one seems to fix the problems. Thats Honda. DC has had trans problems for over 10 years before they sound like they finally fixed the problem. Fuel fires for just about as long, and the 01 still had a fuel leak. Is it now fixed. Only time will tell. DC had a tailgate problem that took what about 4 years before they started fixing them on recall and big pressure from Uncle Sam. I'm not saying Honda don't have problems, but their track record on repairs is 100% better than DC's. You can have the pretty dash, I'll take the quality.
  • akin67akin67 Member Posts: 62
    http://pc99.detnews.com/autosconsumer/autoreviews/index.hbs?myrec=3

    And regarding 4adodge's comments as to the burned up T&C's dash beingpretier than the Odyssey, I think it is a clear demonstration of his complete bias towards the T&C van. Those reading his posts should take his opinions with that knowledge.
  • steelengsteeleng Member Posts: 71
    I agree that DC has been way too reluctant to take care of some of its quality issues. I am glad that they have some pressure from competition to motivate them to improve. I hope that their new leadership will have a better understanding of the importance of customer satisfaction even when it is on small items.

    dkrab - Sorry to hear of all of the problems with your '91. If it is any consolation the starter on my '92 Toyota Tercel also failed at 80K.

    gglen1 - I figured it was a typo. I was just giving you a hard time.
  • enetheneth Member Posts: 285
    Quality issues are one thing; safety is another (more important) issue. You can argue over whether one van is likely to be more reliable than another from either side and probably be correct - there will always be sample variations that skew one way or another.

    Safety is one place where DaimlerChrysler/Chrysler vans have fallen demonstrably short, whether that's the faulty tailgate latches that went on for years, the faulty antilock brakes Chrysler fought (and lost) over recalling, or the fire-prone engine fuel systems that it's taken so long to sort out.

    It seems pretty clear that a lot of those record profits recorded over the years came not only from cut-rate engineering in the transmissions, but from neglected safety engineering as well - and as usual, it's not going to be cheap to fix after the fact.

    I wonder just how much of these problems surfaced in Daimler-Benz's due diligence before the merger - and presuming many did not, how news of them might have affected the enthusiasm for the takeover?
  • hayneldanhayneldan Member Posts: 657
    Well we know both of you own Hondas so you could not at all be biased! Lets get some facts straight. DC reinvented the minivan (VW actually was first) It was built as a TRUCK and is still classified as a TRUCK! Remember all the panel versions running around. The rear hatch latches were built to the government standards that existed at the time they were built. They sold millions of them before the hatch issue came up. I could be wrong but I seem to remember that the last lawsuit for a hatch opening was thrown out because the passenger was not wearing a seat belt. DC was NOT obligated to fix the hatches but did it on a voluntary recall, which cost big bucks. Honda benefited from all the development work DC did and even used the outline of a 96 Grand Caravan in their 99 ads. You have to credit Honda they wait until the see a market opportunity and try to copy (and improve) the best selling US entry. The Acura SUV is another good example of this strategy. Not a bad one I admit, but hardly a pioneering one. As far as fires go you guys never responded to the Honda Odyssey fire article, but are quick to post any negative DC articles. You might not remember but when Honda first introduced the Accord, they had the magic dissapearing front fenders (RUST) that took a few years to admit to. Oh and in regard to the last comparasion. It is the combined opionion of 2 (TWO) newspaper writers, who still preferred the ride and handling of the DC minivan. You should buy what turns you on, as you are the one making the payments.
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Member Posts: 1,739
    So they reinvented the minivan. Does that give them the right to build unsafe vehicles? Honda and their rusty fenders, how about all the original reinvented DC vans with the rusted out rear liftgates. Maybe you don't live where it snows but here in Michigan there are tons of the rusted out vans on the street. Rust is one thing, but fire is another. As far as the fire in the Honda goes, that was just ONE van, hardly the thousands that DC puts on the street year in and year out. If the late made 01's and 02's prove to be a quality built van 5 years down the road, it will be a first. Maybe they can get an OsCar (pun intended) or something for a first.
  • hayneldanhayneldan Member Posts: 657
    According to you the DC designers sit up nights thinking up ways to make the minivans unsafe. GET REAL!
  • arbarnhartarbarnhart Member Posts: 23
    There were a lot of small vans, not just the VW, manufactured prior to the Chrysler "invention". Most of them just weren't imported. Even today, there are a large number that don't come to the US. Chrysler did coin the term "minivan", but that is pretty much the full extent of their ingenuity.
  • hayneldanhayneldan Member Posts: 657
    As the TRUE story stated, the designer of the first DC minivan used to work for FORD and he proposed the concept there. They refused and said it would never sell. He came to DC and they needed help, all they had were "K" cars and he spun one off the FWD "K" platform. 8 Million plus later its still either 1st or 2nd depending on your point of view.
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    And it took Toyota and Nissan many attempts before they got it right. Chrysler minivans were widely accepted at the very beginning. The first Honda Odyssey was a flop until they copied Chrysler. Yes, the Japanese companies are very good at copying some else's ideas. Sometimes, the Japanese companies even improve on the copied item. Poor Volkswagen has still NOT got it right even though they had a good idea but poor Volkswagen engineering and atrocious reliability.
    But the question remains? Why doesn't Honda offer a simple comfort item like padded armrests on the front doors? Why don't all companies offer separately controlled temperature for driver and front passengers? These 2 items are found on ALL quality luxury sedans.
    We placed a $500 non-refundable deposit on the purchase order for a 1999 Granite Green Odyssey LX-C on March 16, 1999. We were very impressed by the "Magic Seat" and very comfortable seats of the Odyssey after a test drive WITHOUT the salesman going along.
    However, we walked away from our $500 deposit and got a GC SE with MANY more comfort features. We had Zero problems until it got a coolant leak at 35,002 miles. The leak was fixed the next day at no charge under warranty by replacing both head gaskets. I have read of far more serious problems with the 99 Ody here in the Town Hall.
    Each minivan has advantages as pat84 so eloquently describes.
  • 4aodge4aodge Member Posts: 288
    Thank you hayneldan and carelton, for giving the other side of the story. The way eneth talks so negatively about Chrysler you would think Lee Iacoca (spelling?) had an affair with his mom when he was a teenager.

    As I type this, millions of Chrysler minivans are being driven and started without any problems whatsoever. They aren't blowing up when the ignition is turned. Their passengers aren't being thrown out when they are hit from the side or back. Their transmission aren't blowing up. Their engines aren't dropping out of the cars on the freeway wile going 80mph. And they aren't exploding from gas leaks.

    The bottom line...THEY ARE SAFE VEHICLES!

    No one here has said Chrysler has had a perfect reliability history and has never had any problems. No one has said that. But when you make Chrysler sound like a company that builds cars to only kill their owners you are simply incorrect.

    Chrysler made the minivan, and the auto industry for that matter, what it is today. All you Odyssey owners out there who love you vans so much should smile whenever you see a Chrysler minivan on the road. Why? Because whether you like it or not, if it wasnt for DC minivans your perfect Odysseys would not be around. Period. End of story.

    -Adam
    PROUND DRIVER OF A TROUBLE FREE 2000 CHRYSLER TOWN & COUNTRY LX
    AND NO, IT HASN'T EXPLODED OR LEAKED FUEL IN THE 33K MILES THAT I HAVE HAD IT!
  • dchoppdchopp Member Posts: 256
    No matter what brand of minivan you own or intend to own, the bottom line is when you hit an 18 wheeler head on going 55mph, you are going to DIE.You can take your 4 or 5 star rating to the bank on that. My uncle was living proof of that.
    DCH
  • 4aodge4aodge Member Posts: 288
    I'm sorry about your uncle. You bring up a very excellent point.
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Member Posts: 1,739
    The bottom line is you DC guys/gals are reaching out into left field finding anything at all to get the Odyssey folks goat. But since there is still right and center field we will return the favor by taking any tidbit of infor that goes against the DC group to get your goat. So if you can stand the pressure get out of the fire (pun intended). So as long as we are throwing out things do we say if it wasn't for GM using some of the first automatic transmissions DC wouldn't even have cars, or Henry Ford for the assembly line, we wouldn't have DC products. Like it was said above, DC didn't invent the minivan, they just lucked out and brought out a product at the right time, same as the Mustang, Corvette, S trucks, and a hundred others. I hope the new DC vans do have better quality than before as I would add them to the list of my next vehicle in a few years since I took them off my list after two bad DC cars.
  • akin67akin67 Member Posts: 62
    The Favorite Cars of Comparison Shoppers: November 2001
    December 17, 2001 8:05 AM EST

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Business Wire

    PALO ALTO, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Dec. 17, 2001--InvoiceDealers, a pioneer in automotive Internet marketing, released the favorite cars, trucks, SUVs and minivans of online comparison shoppers in November 2001.

    November 2001 Results:

    The Ford F-Series extended its three-month streak as the Overall Most Requested Vehicle and two-year dominance in Trucks. Its recent overall popularity may have been buffeted by Ford's 0% interest financing campaign.

    The Honda Accord edged out the Honda Civic as the favorite in Cars for the second consecutive month. The Chrysler PT Cruiser and Toyota Corolla returned to Cars after a one-month absence.

    The Ford Explorer and Chevrolet Tahoe are establishing their dominance in the most volatile category, Sport Utility Vehicles. The two SUVs maintained first and second place respectively for the fourth consecutive month.

    The Honda Odyssey ran away as the clear winner in Minivans for the fourth straight month. The Chrysler Town & Country finished second, its highest ranking ever.

    Rank Vehicle Type Previous Rank November Score

    Cars

    1 Honda Accord 1 10.00
    2 Honda Civic 2 8.17
    3 Nissan Altima 4 7.80
    4 Toyota Camry 3 6.71
    5 Ford Mustang 5 4.15
    6 Volkswagen Jetta 6 3.90
    7 Volkswagen Passat 8 3.78
    8 Toyota Corolla +10 2.69
    9 Chrysler PT Cruiser +10 2.63
    10 Nissan Maxima 9 2.42

    Trucks

    1 Ford F-Series 1 10.00
    2 Chevrolet Silverado 2 6.31
    3 Dodge Ram Pickup 3 4.91
    4 GMC Sierra 4 2.81
    5 Dodge Dakota 5 2.39
    6 Toyota Tundra 10 1.89
    7 Ford Frontier 6 1.85
    8 Toyota Tacoma 9 1.69
    9 Ford Ranger 7 1.58
    10 Chevrolet S-10 8 1.15

    Sport Utility Vehicles

    1 Ford Explorer 1 10.00
    2 Chevrolet Tahoe 2 8.88
    3 Ford Expedition 5 5.57
    4 Jeep Liberty 8 5.43
    5 Chevrolet Suburban 4 5.32
    6 Ford Escape 3 5.07
    7 Nissan Xterra 9 4.79
    8 Dodge Durango 10 4.23
    9 Chevrolet Trailblazer 6 4.06
    10 Jeep Grand Cherokee +10 3.92

    Minivans

    1 Honda Odyssey 1 10.00
    2 Chrysler Town & Country 4 4.30
    3 Dodge Caravan 3 3.62
    4 Toyota Sienna 6 3.24
    5 Dodge Grand Caravan 5 3.07
    6 Ford Windstar 2 2.56
    7 Chevrolet Venture 7 1.77
    8 Chevrolet Astro 8 1.37
    9 Nissan Quest 10 0.99
    10 Mercury Villager +10 0.68
    The list of Overall Most Requested Vehicles will be posted online (http://www.InvoiceDealers.com) in the Company Info Press Release section.

    All registered trademarks are the property of their respective owners.

    About the Study

    The InvoiceDealers Popularity Index(SM) calculates each vehicle's popularity based on data derived from online shoppers who select cars on InvoiceDealers.com.

    About InvoiceDealers and Dealix Corporation

    Dealix Corporation is a data services provider focused on the automotive industry. Its principal unit, InvoiceDealers, provides the Gold Standard(TM) buyer referral product to automotive retailers, dealer groups, retail networks, and auto manufacturers nationwide. Founded in 1998, the company is privately held.

    CONTACT: InvoiceDealers
    Eli Kuo, 800/903-1965 ext. 154
    [email protected].
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Guess we should compare that to our Most Researched on Edmunds.com. Odyssey is the most researched van here too it appears.

    Thanks for the link akin67 (hopefully the copyright owner won't mind the post).

    Steve
    Host
    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • 4aodge4aodge Member Posts: 288
    "Like it was said above, DC didn't invent the minivan, they just lucked out and brought out a product at the right time"

    you wish...
This discussion has been closed.