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Subaru Crew Cafe

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  • tsytsy Member Posts: 1,551
    Nope, decided I wanted something bigger! :P

    So far I've swapped out all my fluids to synthetics, installed a rollbar, frame rails, replaced the whole suspension (adjustable sways and endlinks, springs, adjustable dampers), got a performance alignment, and have a new set of 949 racing 15x8 6UL's with 225/45-15 Hankook RS-3's.

    I think I've just built up a big go kart! ;)

    Now if it will just stop snowing I could drive it!

    tom
  • tsytsy Member Posts: 1,551
    That's unbelievable Juice. He doesn't have a big sign "Hit Me!" on the back of his car, does he???

    Sounds like the Forester is the best fit and with a manual should be better than that 4spd auto.

    tom
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    My ex-wife had a miata and I've driven a shifter kart several times. No contest! ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    He drove and liked the Forester, even in the right color, but it was a base model so it didn't have the moonroof. Now that he's seen that, he's gotta have it.

    So he's waiting for March deliveries to see which dealer gets what.
  • samm43samm43 Member Posts: 195
    I hope I called it the correct term? Anyone know how this works? Do you have any experience with it be it good or bad?

    According to the brochure there appears to be one or two buttons on the dash that engages the parking brake that normally is handled with a pull handle or lever on the floor. I picture a lot of potential for things to go wrong with electric depending on how they have done it. There must be at least two very strong solenoids involved. Or do you think it uses an electric motor that powers a rack and pinion, or maybe a hydraulic pump hooked to mechanical pieces?

    I'm thinking that it is hard to beat a handle you pull up from the right side of your seat but I tend to be old fashioned according to some.

    Sam
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,793
    I'm thinking that it is hard to beat a handle you pull up from the right side of your seat but I tend to be old fashioned according to some.

    Me too, but that doesn't mean the handle pull isn't the best method!
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I have not seen any failures yet. MB has been using this system for many years w/o issue so I'm pretty sure it's ok. Most of the new Legacy and Outback drivers these days are Automatic or CVT drivers who never use the parking brake at all.

    -mike
    Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
  • samm43samm43 Member Posts: 195
    I like my parking brake no matter what the transmission.

    You have any idea how they do it or the first year they started it?
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    2010 Legacy and Outback were the first years with it.

    I am not sure how it works, I think a solenoid controls what would normally be controlled via hand/cable.

    -mike
    Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    edited February 2011
    I strongly advocate the use of a parking brake to save abuse to the parking pawl in automatics, so view it as an essential for any tranny type.

    Also, I grew up with the term 'emergency brake' rather than parking brake. It was a potential savior in the days of single piston hydraulics and the leaky diaphragms of early power boosters. I still rely on an easy to modulate hand brake to help with snow/ice covered roads. Stability control for those of us without elaborate electronics!!

    I hate the idea of another overly complex substitute for something basic that works and didn't need fixing.
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    I hate the idea of another overly complex substitute for something basic that works and didn't need fixing.

    Agreed. Another reason to buy the Forester rather than the Outback. I have also used a hand brake on older cars to provide a crude limited slip rear differential!

    The CVT might be prone to failure starting up with a fully applied handbrake...hence the system on the Outback.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I've driven a lot of miles in automatics and never ever used the parking brake except on very steep inclines. To date, I've never had a parking pin break on any of them.

    As for "emergency brake", I'm not certain that one could modulate them as most cars have gone to the auto-locking down style where you need to push it to the floor to release it.

    Interestingly enough, my CTS-V has a foot activated parking brake with a manual release, and it's a 6MT! It's very weird doing a foot brake for the parking brake on my V.

    On a side note, do most of you guys who drive MT cars park it in gear? I never do and always use the parking brake on those cars. Only time I put it in gear is if I'm parked on a hill.

    As for "another reason to buy an Outback over a forester" I don't think they really compare in terms of what they are. I was just in a brand new forester and since it's built on the Impreza chassis it's got the similar road/tinny sound that the Imprezas have. The Outbacks are considerably more refined/quiet IMO.

    -mike
    Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I hate the idea of another overly complex substitute for something basic that works and didn't need fixing.

    The same could be said for things such as:

    GPS (Maps work real well)
    Power Windows & Door Locks (No need for them at all)
    Auto Start (That's what children are for!)
    Heated Seats
    Air Conditioning
    Power Seats
    Automatic Transmissions
    Power Steering
    Dual Exhaust pipes in the rear (I mean that's 2x the mufflers)
    Keyless Entry
    In Glass Antennas
    Leather Seats
    Power Mirrors

    The list could go on and on and on...

    ;)

    -mike
    Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Well, I will agree and disagree at the same time Mike.

    GPS (Maps work real well) - no question
    Power Windows & Door Locks (No need for them at all) -yep laziness
    Auto Start (That's what children are for!) - we use our kids to do that for the truck which lives outdoors all the time!!
    Heated Seats - sorry, couldn't disagree more. What do they replace? As a guy who regularly drives vehicles in -30 temps, heated seats are the greatest invention EVAR!
    Air Conditioning - ever get stuck in traffic on a 90 degree day in a car without A/C?
    Power Seats - yes, but only if they don't have memory. A vehicle which resets the seat of the family vehicle where I want it when I use my keyfob is pretty cool
    Automatic Transmissions - yep
    Power Steering - no power rack and pinion is my fave. Do they exist anymore?
    Dual Exhaust pipes in the rear (I mean that's 2x the mufflers) - form over function 95% of the time
    Keyless Entry - yes
    In Glass Antennas - yes
    Leather Seats - Ever try to get milk, melted crayons, melted lollipops or dog hair out of cloth seats? Leather or pleather rules.
    Power Mirrors - with more than one driver, they are a blessing IMHO

    After all that, I still want a manual hand-brake. You can't optimize rally turns or winter do-nuts without them.
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    Actually I would not at all be surprised to learn Subaru is using the electronic e-brake to prevent center differential damage caused by people overly aggressive with the handbrake...
  • samm43samm43 Member Posts: 195
    edited February 2011
    Yes the parking brake saves the transmission pawl wear and tear and the debris from clunking it out on hills will go into the fluid. Owners who trade up every 3 years probably never realize that that transmission likely didn't last as long for some later owner down the road. And parking lot bumps can exert a lot more force than a steep hill but I suspect few people think of that aspect.

    I think baby boomer aged drivers resist using the park brake because in the old days they were not built with as much resistance to freezing on in the cold. I leave my car in gear also in my present car as the p brake isn't as strong as others I have had. I have found that cars with rear brake drums seem to have the strongest p brake without having to test the strength of the cable every time you apply it.

    Someone mentioned the CVT and p brake consideration. I had never thought of that. Are CVT's that prone to damage if not turning? When they first came out in the Audi's they had torque limitations. I think they still do because in the flat six cylinder it has a normal 5 speed automaytic. They don't impress me with much long term confidence if torque considerations are that limited.

    Sam
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    The Outbacks are considerably more refined/quiet IMO.

    My test drives of the 2.5i CVT compared very unfavorably with the XT Forester. The normally aspirated engine Forester is as you describe...with an exhaust rap even more annoying than the exhaust drone and transmission whine of the CVT in the Outback. Plus the Forester's inadequate power without rough downshifts. The 3.6R Outback was great on a test drive, however. The 3.6R's price was several thousand dollars more when similarly equipped to my XT.

    It will be interesting to see if the 2011 normally aspirated engine changes in the Forester make a significant difference.
  • hammerheadhammerhead Member Posts: 907
    Broke the parking brake release cable on the Suburban last year, and we were the last car out of the ski area parking lot. Head in the footwell, flashlight in one hand, trusty Leatherman in the other, I was able to trip the release. My point: I wonder if such a 'field fix' procedure would even be possible on an electronic brake? Pull a fuse?

    I use the hand brake to park the Subaru (MT) all the time, and park it in 1st gear. Don't usually use the parking brake on the Suburban (AT) unless it's on a slope.

    Cheers!
    Paul
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Off on a slight tangent, I was watching Ultimate Factories and they said power windows can actually weigh less than the hand-crank type. Wonder if that's true or not.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    On a side note, do most of you guys who drive MT cars park it in gear? I never do and always use the parking brake on those cars. Only time I put it in gear is if I'm parked on a hill.

    I park my MT in gear and use the parking brake. Is that bad? I've done that for over 25 years.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 237,062
    MT always in reverse, and with parking brake on.. I think the original thought was reverse was a lower gear, and more likely to hold the car on an incline.. but, as time went on, it was always good to hop in, and know what gear you are starting in...

    Automatic... always use the parking brake. I was a commercial driver for quite a few years, and every place I worked required it. Now, it's just habit (a good one).

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  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    DW & I still use the parking brake. Both the MPV and my Fusion Hyrbid have hand parking brakes. The MPV one seems much easier to modulate with rear drums, the Fusion is more touchy. I'll still sometimes use the ol' e-brake steering while parking in the snow, LOL.

    We're both avid users of the parking brake on hills, even with my hybrid having the CVT. We both also always parked our vehicles that had MT's in gear (1st usually) and also the brake.

    -Brian
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    My guess is the electronic parking brakes as someone else mentioned above, is to prevent folks from using it to "get the back out" which is VERY bad for the center diffy.

    -mike
    Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    A few weeks back during the ABS discussion, I mentioned that while the use of the e-brake is an effective way to shut down the ABS system on many cars, it is probably hell on the center diff. It is fighting to overcome the difference in torque distribution that you've induced. I've limited my use to real emergencies, and not just for the convenience of quick turns on snow pack.

    If that is the only reason that they went this way - protection of another system, it's possibly understandable but extremely unfortunate.

    Good engineering practice dictates that we look at multiple competing factors in our choices. A change in form or functionality should address a specific need, while considering & balancing a wide range of issues. These typically include regulatory rule changes, cost reduction, safety enhancement, reliability, protection of other systems, user convenence, enhanced appeal, serviceablity, general complexity reduction, weight & materials reduction, ease of use & effort reduction, standardization, etc.

    If you go back to your list of changes from yesterday, most (not all, but one can make an argument for anything....) meet sufficient criteria to be adopted (at least as a purchase option) without serious objection.

    Ultimately, it is the marketplace that decides. We 'vote' with our dollars.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,793
    Unless I am parked on a slope (more than a couple degrees) or idling, I don't use the hand brake. My cars rest in first gear. I once used the brake religiously, but living in the subarctic quickly taught me to re-think that practice. After nearly fifteen years, I can't figure a practical reason as to why I ever did it the other way.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    We've begun the process of shopping to replace our 9+ year old Odyssey EX that now has around 137k. We occasionally get 'tranny early warning signs', and the prospects of dropping $4k into her isn't particularly appealing. We've been lucky as others on the Edmunds Ody board are on their 3rd or more unit at this mileage. We're on #2, which I guess is pretty good. Tranny issues on larger Honda vehicles is like HG's on Subaru - their Achilles' Heel.

    This would be our 4th minivan, so we have certain priorities and expectations. We really don't like the new body & interior styling of the 2011 Ody. It seems as though they've tried to make it more appealing to the SUV buyer and it's lost some of the minivan character that we've grown to appreciate. Outward visibility from the drivers seat was simply awful given the higher beltline and thick D pillars.

    We were equally disappointed with the Sienna. I thought maybe it would grow on me, having rented one in Florida last month for the drive between Cocoa Beach & Orlando. Unfortunately it hasn't. Wallowy ride, detached steering, poor rear visibility (again, a smallish rear window & larger D pillars), poorly shaped 2nd row seats. Our two adult mid row passengers were happy to get out after only 50 miles! The only thing Toyota has going for it is a low price on the LE series that is quite well equipped - if you can live with the detractors. We looked at an AWD LE, but they come with runflats and no spare. I haven't heard much positive about them.

    We even went so far as to have the Honda Used dept do a search for 2010 program car (last gen body style that Beth really likes). Unfortunately, it doesn't make much sense economically. Prices for a used Ody in this area rival new car pricing on a comparably equipped Sienna.

    We did a quick stop at Nissan to look at the new Quest, but the lumpy load floor with the fold-forward rear seat (doesn't go into the well!) was disappointing. Next stop is the Kia dealer to look at the value leading Sedona.
  • hammerheadhammerhead Member Posts: 907
    Ours have frozen up a time or two. Always managed to un-stick them.
    Good point.
  • tsytsy Member Posts: 1,551
    Hey Steve

    You could look at crossovers like the Ford Flex, which I think is a reasonable Minivan substitute if you really don't need the extra cargo room. You can also get it in AWD which is a plus.

    The Honda Pilot is basically an Odyssey jacked up with AWD as well. Kinda ugly though (like most Honda products these days!) and like the Flex, less cargo room.

    The Sedona is a reasonable Minivan but certainly not "nice and refined".
    But quiet and comfortable. (I had a rental for a few days) I don't think it gets the greatest gas mileage though.

    Then there's always the Suburban . . . ;)

    tom
  • tsytsy Member Posts: 1,551
    I always put it in gear unless it's in my garage. I had my STi on a slight hill once and just pulled the parking brake. I stepped out of the car and then it started rolling away!!!! :surprise: Luckily I jumped back in before it hit anything!

    Same thing happened to a friends acura- it's weird how parking brakes can initially hold and then slowly start slipping.

    tom
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Tom, when Ford builds a Flex with sliding side doors (and they must be motorized!!), she'll be interested!

    We never learned the concept of 'traveling light'. It's been said that we look a lot like the Beverly Hillbillies on most of our trips. And when we cannot cram it inside the van, I just attach the Yakama bike rack on the receiver hitch and the Thule roof box onto the roof rack for yet more junk capacity!!

    My sister had a Pilot, and Beth's opinion was that it was way too small inside!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm an OCD club member, but I like to engage the parking brake before putting the car in gear (or park), just to make sure there's no pressure on the trans. I do that for auto and manual.

    Brakes are cheaper to fix than transmissions.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I feel your pain!

    Both the new Sienna and Odyssey went downhill for their latest updates. Consumer Reports actually lowered both vans' scores, even.

    Did you try a Sienna SE? Because they supposedly handle better and have revised steering as well.

    Kia just put in a very nice powertrain upgrade but I think they feel dated compared to other vans.

    Dodge put in the Penastar and a 6EAT also, but the interior upgrades only went about half as far as they should have. May still be worth a look.

    I feel for you, man, to be honest it would be tough to replace my 07 Sienna. I might even shop for a 2010 CPO model if mine were totalled or stolen.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,793
    I certainly can appreciate the point of that. The problem is, I have just never had any problems as a result of not using the brake. In fact, the brake (foot-operated) on my '98 DGC did not function (likely a result of someone leaving it on while driving once) at all! While it annoyed me and made me nervous at times, it never had any issues. And, not having any brake at all, I simply had to rely on the tranny to hold regardless of the parking position. Of course, I was always sure to angle my wheels so as to hedge for the least disastrous result.... :surprise:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,793
    I love vans. I don't know why, really, but there's something just inherently comfortable about them. The driver in me hates the van-lover in me, but so it goes. What would life be without a little internal conflict now and again?

    I would have a tough time if I were choosing amongst new offerings. If I were looking today, I think I would try to find a 2004 Chrysler with AWD. That generation had a couple quirks, but they looked great, drove nice, and were generally reliable. While smaller than the rest of the genre, I might also consider a new Mazda5.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • tsytsy Member Posts: 1,551
    Ahh, that makes things much clearer.

    You can get an AWD full sized GM van.

    OR, you could get one of these!

    http://www.sportsmobile.com/4_4x4sports.html

    Should have room enough for everything, go anywhere, tow 10000 lbs.
    Yours for only $60-90k !!!!! :surprise:

    Hmm, maybe the Kia is looking a little better. ;)

    Actually, you might take a look at the VW Routan. I know it's a rebadged diamondstar van, but the interior is nicer and it drives reasonably well for a minivan. Just not sure how reliable it will be in the long run.

    Good luck!

    tom
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Our first van was a 1997 Dodge Grand Caravan Sport, followed by a 2000 Ford Windstar SE, then the 2002 Odyssey EX. First two were leases, thus the short 3 year, 2 year ownership experience. Back then leasing was a great deal, and quite a painless way to slip into something new. I actually made money off of both, buying them out at the deflated price (neither mfg wanted them back and sold them to me way below residual), and I resold them!!

    Unfortunately, both American offerings were problematic - the Dodge painfully so. When they ran, they were both very nice vehicles. But I wouldn't consider keeping them past the warranty period. My friend with a 2004 (or maybe 2005?) Caravan just traded it on a Honda, and was glad to be out from under it. The repair expenses & downtime were killing him.

    A few years back we rented for 10 days a new GC with the stow-n-go seats. Great idea, but the most horrible things I have ever sat in! Its a shame, but with the just released Consumers auto report listing Chrysler dead last in their quality survey, I'll pass on a mopar product.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Yes, I remember reading a review not long ago which bemoaned the fact that a few years ago minivans ruled in features and quality, but that recently the offerings from all brands are problematic in one way or another.
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    edited March 2011
    The one thing that the minivan market has going for it right now is price. Somehow, as a segment, the cost/feature ratio has not gone up as fast as the auto market as a whole.

    OK - forget about the top end "Touring" models with their $40k+ stickers (something like 10% of sales). I'm talking about the very well equipped mid line bread-&-butter vans like the Toyota LE. For example, the difference in sticker price between my 1997 Dodge ($25.5k) and the 2011 Toyota ($30.3k) is pretty trivial given 14 years. But look at the equipment level!
    Modern 260hp V6, 6 spd auto, stability/traction control, 17" wheels, improved 3 zone climate, decent audio with bluetooth/USB, power doors, backup camera, power seat, split fold-into-the floor rear seat, and a hundred other improvements/refinements/features.

    The Ford was around $27k, and the '02 Ody was over $28k (no discount!). Oh, and that $30.3 sticker can be had for around $28.3k, so the price has been effectively stagnant in the past 9 years! There probably isn't a better bargain out there than the modern minivan.

    Want AWD? Add $2.1k to any of the trim lines to get it.

    You guys know that I'm not a big Toyota fan, having been burned by their extreme arrogance back in the '90's. I swore up and down that I'd never do business with them again, and that their 'we can do no wrong' attitude would eventually bring them down - and hard. Well, maybe it's happened, and I can bury the hatchet.

    I was a VIP guest of an old family friend and got to see the Toyota principles of lean manufacturing at work during my tour of the Tsutsumi assembly plant in Toyota City, Aichi, Japan in September, 2006. I know they can build great products, but their management style is still in great need of change. We'll see.....
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The problem is, I have just never had any problems as a result of not using the brake

    I have, and it was pretty scary.

    I parked my 1991 Ford Escort GT on my street, left in gear but no parking brake. Went inside and had dinner. We get a knock on the door, a neighbor tells me my car moved, huh? It had popped out of gear and rolled down a bit, luckily up the curb because I always point the wheels up the curb to stop it for cases just like this.

    Since that day I've always used both.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I love vans. I don't know why, really, but there's something just inherently comfortable about them.

    I know why...

    * comfort for 8 people and some luggage
    * quiet enough you can watch a movie
    * good for napping (wife snoozes a lot)
    * covers looooooooooong distances with 500+ mile range
    * better fuel economy than alternatives
    * better visibility than alternatives
    * not as bulky outside as other 8 seaters
    * much cheaper than alternatives

    Sure, a Suburban or Expedition is an alternative but your operating costs would be nearly double, and they're far more awkward to drive and park.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    I certainly agree with both you and Juice: vans are great. We loved ours for sure, but had to move on due to other requirements such as towing and the space for two medium-large dogs. No argument either, you can get a well equipped MV for the price of a much smaller mid-size sedan from many manufacturers. They are practically giving away the Caravan these days. Maybe they were selling at a premium 10 years ago during their heyday. Now with demand much lower, the price has to create the interest. I just have to wonder with so many well documented issues recently if they are saving that money somewhere the consumer doesn't see until they have a problem.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited March 2011
    Our 2007 Sienna has been trouble-free.

    Well, except the time the chipmunks chewed up my wiring harness!
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I certainly agree with both you and Juice: vans are great. We loved ours for sure, but had to move on due to other requirements...

    We're in the same boat - vans are great but we have new requirements now: Wifey has declared that she has driven the Odyssey for 11 years and isn't going to drive a minivan for another 10 years. That trumps every other requirement we may have.
  • grahampetersgrahampeters Member Posts: 1,786
    G'day

    Just saw the reportage of the 2011 Geneva Show Car displaying the likely Subaru Sports Coupe.

    http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-shows/subarus-invisible-sports-coupe-20110301-1- bcw1.html

    Looks very cute and shows off the technology well.

    Cheers

    Graham
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    It's certainly an interesting model, but I thought the Toyota version looked 'faster':
    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/03/01/geneva-2011-toyota-ft-86-ii-concept

    I did already comment here on Edmunds (over on InsideLine) that if this car is to be taken halfway seriously as a 'sports coupe' then it needs to have decently over 200 horsepower. I'll be curious to see how a naturally aspirated 2.0L flat four can do that, considering Porsche gets only 265HP out of the 2.9L engine in the base model Boxster & Cayman.

    If it launches with 2800lb and 200 HP, the car is stillborn. I realize that Subaru can attach a turbocharger and make 300 or more horsepower, but if this first car is the base model then I'm waiting for the turbo.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Same a bit here too. When moving on to a bigger personal vehicle from her Bug, Dra refused to replace it with a minivan. She just delayed long enough that we could safely put a boy in the front seat with the 3 others sitting in back of her Prius.
    On another note that same Prius has sat in the garage for the last 3 days due to 3 days of blowing snow making roads almost impassable. (Spent an hour pushing our piano teacher in her Sienna out of our cul-de-sac yesterday). Our road is so bad that our 3/4 ton with over 8" of clearance was bogging down intermittently.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Oh my wife has noting against minivans - she loves ours. She is just sick of driving one. She has told me I'm free to buy one for myself but she's getting a 7 passenger CUV.
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    edited March 2011
    I feel for you, man, to be honest it would be tough to replace my 07 Sienna. I might even shop for a 2010 CPO model if mine were totalled or stolen.

    Well, the plot thickens.... Today we drove the Kia Sedona EX (inexpensive to purchase, but just not in the same league...), and then went back to look at the '11 Sienna. She liked it even less today than last Sunday...

    So guess what we're looking at now? CPO last gen Sienna! We have inquiries out to 3 local dealers about 2008 LE off-lease vans (25k-35k miles) selling for around $18-19k. Economically, it probably isn't terribly sensible, but emotions sometimes trump $$. Stay tuned!
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    I do think we should drop the "mini" bit, all these vans are huge now....
    I suppose we'll have to throw in the towel at some point but, for now, we're sticking with wagons. It may make no economic sense, but I'm still smitten enough with the Volvo that I'd be willing to sink some decent cash into it to keep it on the road if the tranny, the angle gear or the rear prop shaft (these cars have 3 Achilles heels, not one :0 ) ever needed replacement *knock on wood*

    And I'm already dreaming of an ipd Stage One package for it :blush:
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    I do think we should drop the "mini" bit, all these vans are huge now....

    Agreed. I think if someone says "van" it is fair to assume they mean a minivan, as conversion vans no longer exist. If they mean "panel van" or "cargo van" they will say so.

    Easy enough? :)
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