Subaru Crew Cafe

joybell · June 2003

I asked this question before, about 6 months ago, and need some more enlightenment. I keep my cars a long time, so I need to rustproof my new Forester. The dealer wants $500 to do it, but we have always used yearly oil treatments to keep the rust off the farm trucks. Should I do the dealer treatment (rip-off?) and then still do the annual oil treatment? Or, do I only have the dealer treatment done, or only the oil treatment? Does anyone here have personal experience? The last one I had done at a dealer rusted through (preforated) at 8 years old, but the dealer tells me both the vehicles and the rust treatment methods have improved.

paisan · June 2003

What year was your car? The OLDER subies were FWD and then you had to engage the 4wd manually.

On the newer systems they use a viscous center diffy with a 50/50 torque split that essentially puts power to both driveshafts at the same time. If the front slips more power is sent to the rear and visa versa. In addition you probably have a rear LSD which does the same thing except from left to right in the rear.

On the 4EAT transmissions prior to '96 you had a 90/10 torque split using an electromagnetic clutchpack in the AT. Post '95 it went to a 80/20 split. Now the VTD/VDC 4EAT has a 45/55 torque split and more clutch packs than the older ones.

-mike

joybell · June 2003

My Chaser was a 1987 and it was front wheel drive with "on-demand" 4wd which I could engage (it made a "clunk" sound and I could hear the rear engage)...but it could only be used on wet pavement or soil/gravel and not dry. My 1993 Loyale wagon is front wheel drive only (still have that one...great car), my brother in law's 1992 Loyale is the same system as the Chaser was, and my mom's 1998 Impreza is full time AWD with automatic transmission. The salesman was talking about a 1990 Loyale with AWD full time, which I thought was not around that early.

So what is the difference in the way the AWD works if you have a manual or automatic transmission. Here is the confusing paragraph from the brochure which makes it look like the 2003 Forester has two types of AWD systems, depending on what transmission type you pick:

"Manual transmission models split engine power 50/50 between front and rear wheels. Models with automatic transmission use Active All-Wheel Drive, an electronically controlled muliplate transfer clutch for maximum traction".

I don't have the LSD since that is only available in the 2.5XS model.

paisan · June 2003

Was out in '88 on the XT6 in both MT and AT.

MT System: Viscous Coupled Center diffy, moves power front to rear based on slippage with a 50/50 initial torque split and a 60/40 40/60 range of movement.

AT System: Electronically controlled torque splitting unit 80/20 intial torque split up to 50/50 depending on slippage, weight distribution, etc.

The AT system uses sensors to give input to the transmission which splits the power, based on those inputs it shifts the power around.

Hope this helps.

-mike

ivestorpark · June 2003

Most likely only the dealer's sales pitch has improved. I have a 10.5 year old Camry and it doesn't have a bit of rust, even though it sits out and has spent most of its life in the snow belt. With all the plastic on cars and in the wheel wells and highway crews avoiding road salt for environmental reasons, I see no reason to rust proof a car, unless you like contributing $500 to the dealer's children's college education fund. I like to know how you oiled your car down. I do wash my vehicle almost every weekend unless the weather is unbearable or snow is going to hit within 24 hours. It probably averages 47-50 washes per year.

joybell · June 2003

Subaru should have hired you to write their brochures. Thanks for clearing up the confusion!

joybell · June 2003

We oiled our truck by bringing it to a body shop every fall where they spray oil underneath and in all the nooks an cranies. It is then protected for the winter.

I just paid a visit to the owner of the body shop and asked him the question. He said the $500 is a waste of money. The oil treatment is as good and probably better at covering all the protential rusting places. What he told me that is very interesting is that you should never park a car on grass or even bare earth because that holds in dampness and it creeps in under the car. Salt is an enemy he said, but humidity is very bad as well. Park your car on dry pavement or on crushed stone.

paisan · June 2003

Heard the same about grass as well.

-mike

rsholland · June 2003

The last we heard from you, you were set on getting an Impreza TS. I thought the Forester was out of your price range?

Bob

ateixeira · June 2003

Both AWD systems are extremely reliable, I'm not sure if I've ever once heard of an AWD system fail.

I prefer the feel of the manual's viscous coupling because it sends more power to the rear axle by default. The Auto's system is more sophisticated but feels more like FWD.

Both are probably more than you'll need.

Saw a post at 12:26 in another topic that you'd bought the Forester. Congrats!

-juice

joybell · June 2003

my husband did not want to pay the extra C$5000 for the Forester, however our accountant told us that if the vehicle has resonable cargo space so that for example we can fit 2 bales of hay in it (so count out the Impreza), and drive to the fields with spare parts for our tractors and equipment, and can proove with a logbook how much it is used for the farm, then 60% of the purchase cost and expenses can be written off. Besides, my husband wrecked our spare Chevy truck which was for my use so we are short a farm vehicle. And to top it all off, HE DROVE A FORESTER. That did it. So now the papers are all signed and I am waiting for the dealer to phone with a vehicle registration number and date he expects delivery. I hope everything will be OK. I wanted a Silver with manual transmission, which he didn't have on the lot but said he could get.

ateixeira · June 2003

So the drive was the key, cool.

Funny and true story. My sister had cross-shopped a Forester and a Camry, remember? Well, she bought the Forester. Now it's in to have some accessories installed, and she got a loaner....Camry!

Hilarious. I asked and she said that after driving the Camry around for a 2nd day, she still preferred her Forester. Cool.

For the mechanics in this group, check out the Miata thread for the story on the clutch slave cylinder rebuild on the Miata. Finally got that done, and took some pics that may come in handy later for someone.

-juice

rsholland · June 2003

<grin>

We'll be interested in your comments as to the Forester pans out as a "farm truck."

You might even consider getting the factory/dealer trailer hitch. If you get a light utility trailer, I'm sure you can get a bunch of bales of hay, and not worry about getting that straw all over the interior. Juice has used my 5'x8' utility trailer behind his 5-speed Forester several times to get loads of mulch.

The Forester 5-speed is rated to pull 2400 pounds. If you're just going to use it in the fields for hauling hay, it should be fine. Out on the highway you should have trailer brakes to pull over 1000 pounds, but I would think that the low speeds in the fields wouldn't be a problem. Also, the Hill-Holder clutch should make it less stressfull on the drivetrain when pulling a trailer. I would seriously think about that option.

Bob

rsholland · June 2003

First North American test on the Touareg that I've seen.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6111&sid=18- 1&n=157

Bob

rsholland · June 2003

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6128&sid=17- 3&n=156

I bet this will be even more popular than the hot H2.

Bob

rsholland · June 2003

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6085&sid=17- 7&n=156

joybell · June 2003

Well, I don't think I will haul hay bales with it. That was just an example the accountant gave us in order to have a vehicle qualify for farm use. But I will definately have to drive into the fields with all kinds of greasey/oily replacement parts for broken down equipment. The dealer threw in a rubber mat for the cargo area in the back (at least he gave us something for free for paying full M.S.R.P.). I also bring lunches and water, etc at harvest time. I am sure the Forester can do that very well.

My conern right now is why the dealer hasn't called with a registration number and delivery dates. I hope he doesn't call and say that there are no manual silver 2.5x models left! After being patient for so long, I am now VERY impatient!

rsholland · June 2003

Even so, a small lightweight trailer could make the Forester really pay for itself. You could certainly haul a half-dozen bales of hay, tools, lumber, etc. It could be much more useful than just an errand runner. You may already have such a trailer, since you have a farm.

The rubber cargo mat is very good to have. You might also get the rear rubber bumper pad. You never know when something might scuff up the bumper, especially considering how you might use the car.

You also have a roof rack that's rated to carry 150 pounds too.

Bob

ivestorpark · June 2003

You shouldn't park over drains, sewers, etc. The humidity that comes out settles on your engine parts which I've heard isn't good. It would also get into the crevices of your auto body.

Your body shop probably uses a high pressure gun to coat the car with oil. You can probably duplicate that either with a low or high pressure applicator. Obviously a HP applicator would be better, but you can probably do as nearly as good a job with a low pressure applicator. What does your body shop charge for an oil application? i believe that you said that it was done annually. Sounds like your talking fairly big $$. Again the way cars are built nowadays I'd question the necessity of even doing that. If you've ever leased a car the dealers don't rust proof them. Their reasoning is that rust won't show up during the life of the lease. There was another famous rust proofing system of about 25-30 years ago (forget name), but they guaranteed their treatment for five years. The catch is that it will almost always take longer than five years for rust to show up. Bottom line is that you don't see the rust buckets on the road that you saw 30-40 years ago, even near the ocean where you're near salt water. Whatever money it costs, I'd keep it in your pocket. The college fund may be going towards the body shop owner's kids instead.

lark6 · June 2003

That's one of the roles my Forester plays, Joybell, though in my case not for farm equipment but for my old Studebaker. (Some would argue there's little difference between the two.)

Ed

rsholland · June 2003

Anybody following the threads over in the nasioc STi forums? There's a lot of discussion going on regarding this (potential) problem. The sense I get is the STi, as delivered, requires higher octane gas that's not normally found here in America. Some owners are getting pinging (under load) even using 94 octane!

Bob

himiler · June 2003

Remember, the 2.5l in the STi was engineered for application in the North American market only, so it *should* be okay on 91 or better.

Considering how highly-stressed the 2.5l is in the STi (even with the beefed-up internals), it's not too surprising to hear about spark knock. Since the XT's engine isn't being asked to do quite as much, I'd be willing to bet it won't suffer from the same trouble.

joybell · June 2003

There is a big difference in how long a car lasts up here if it has been oil treated yearly. I have seen several 1992/93 Loyales with not a speck of rust on them, thanks to the foresight of their owners (who would never part with them BTW). My Loyale, a 1993 is totally preforated with rust in several places, especially the driver's side that gets the most salt spray from the roads. It was never treated, at the dealers or at a body ship. The oil treatment only costs $60, which is a very small investment towards the upkeep of the car, especially when you intend to keep it for a very long time (10-12 years), and drive it on the heavily salted roads here in Quebec, Canada.

ateixeira · June 2003

H3 looks like a development mule. The 3 rear-most windows don't match the rest of the truck. Needs a lot of sorting out IMO.

I bet it'll sell like crazy. Funny that Isuzu engineered it, if it has a Duramax it might actually be interesting.

I gotta say, a trailer would be really handy on a farm. Any interior will take a beating, let the trailer take the beating instead. Even if it's a cheap $300 4'x8' used one.

-juice

kens · June 2003

Oh boy, just what the market needs -- an H3. ;-)

Interesting review on the Touareg. It's got one full-featured AWD system. There's a good write up in over in the VW Vortex forums.

So, is the STi's 300HP rated at 91 octane?

Ken

paisan · June 2003

It's a nice wagon

-mike

jlemole · June 2003

I never gave it much thought before, but is regular gasoline basically fungible? Does it really matter whether I gas up at a major retailer vs. cheap local independent. I generally look for cheapest gas, but I'm wondering whether I'm doing a disservice to my car (02 Outback).

ateixeira · June 2003

TWAH-reg, or TOUR-egg, that is the question. LOL

Jon: I've heard stories of how a gas truck goes from station to station (different brands) and fills up using the same gasoline. Of course the station may or may not put in their own additives, who knows.

But look in the WSJ and you find that premium wholesales for 3 cents more than regular, yet some stations around here charge 20-25 extra for it. It's robbery.

Then again others charge just 10 cents more. If you have an Entertainment Book, you get 10 cents off per gallon of premium once a month at Crown stations. That's the only time I've gotten it.

We had a 626 and used nothing but premium in it. At about 50k miles, the fuel injection got clogged up and we had to do a throttle body service, the dealer charged a couple hundred bucks, ouch.

The irony is that on my old Escort, I'd use the cheapest stuff I could find, price being the *only* criteria. It went 107k miles without ever needing that service!

Both were Mazda engines, FWIW, and we owned them at the same time.

<here comes Colin to disagree> ;-)

-juice

locke2c · June 2003

your 626 got a tankful or more of bad gas (80% chance-- my WAG) or had a defective part.

3 cents is on the low side but of course the wholesale price difference isn't as large as the retail price difference.

-Colin

rsholland · June 2003

now arriving at dealers. I saw one last nite at a Subie/VW dealer in Owings Mills, MD yesterday.

Bob

ateixeira · June 2003

The 626 lost power gradually. It was weird, we didn't even notice it, it was so gradual.

Then we got the throttle body cleaned and BAM! it was quick again. We had probably lost 30 horsepower.

Even if it was one bad tank, I'd expect better quality control from higher octane gas. Guess not.

-juice

rsholland · June 2003

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/?previews/previews_story.php?id=3764- 0

I've always liked the Patrol. My only problem was it was rather primitive by current standards. The new model, while still a true back-to-basics SUV, appears to have been given some much needed upgrades. It's a shame it's not sold here, especially with the excellent 3.0 I-4 turbo diesel.

Bob

ateixeira · June 2003

Looks like it was designed in 1982, though. Not that that's all bad, just it's not what's selling here.

-juice

locke2c · June 2003

three liter inline four turbodiesel? bet that's got an agricultural sound to it. ;-)

-Colin

ateixeira · June 2003

Pistons the size of vats.

-juice

rsholland · June 2003

for agricultural chores. This engine has been sold in Nissan pickups in Australia and other markets for some time now. I'm pretty sure it is a DOHC w/4valves, so it's about as state-of-the art as diesels come.

Bob

rsholland · June 2003

are very common with big-rig trucks. Most of them are inline 6-cylinders with displacements of 7  8 liters, or larger. Cummings now offers a large DOHC diesel too. It's their most powerful engine I believe.

Bob

rsholland · June 2003

new Sprinter 3/4 ton & 1 ton van, that you now see FedEx and UPS using, uses a 153 HP 2.7L 5-cylinder diesel. The horsepower is low, but I'm sure it has gobs of torque, and is perfect for urban/suburban deliveries. I think it gets ~ 25 mpg.

Bob

ateixeira · June 2003

If wonder if paisan golfs. If so, I'm sure he'd find that "adequate" for his golf cart.

-juice

himiler · June 2003

Anyone remember the Porsche 944S4? That car had some monster power pulses!

locke2c · June 2003

all the later 944s and the 968 were 3.0L inline fours. the 944 S2 and the 968 did have variocam and revved fairly high.

monster balance shafts!

-Colin

kens · June 2003

A 3-liter four banger? Why? Was it a space restriction?

Ken

locke2c · June 2003

kinda, and hoodline too since it's a front longitudinal mount.

but mainly when the idea got off the ground with the 924, they didn't want to use a six cylinder due to tromping on the 911's hallowed ground. the 914-6 raised enough hackles five or so years previous.

-Colin

paisan · June 2003

Is awsome, but won't sell here. Too much UTILITY, not enough BLING.

-mike

ateixeira · June 2003

mike - it could, if Nissan put 22" chromed rims with rubber-band like tires and removed the low range to cut production costs! LOL

-juice

rsholland · June 2003

http://email.motortrend.com/cgi-bin15/DM/y/mCuR0CTVNu0XQ0Cv70Bt

jlemole · June 2003

Juice, Bob: Just looked at the MotorTrend article and had a quetion. Does "B4" Legacy refer only to the proposed 2.5 Turbo model. Or does "B4" refer to the entire new Legacy body design (regardless of engine)? I'm confused.

Jon

rsholland · June 2003

is a term used for Japanese-spec Legacys. I believe it's used in reference to the sedan and not the wagon. It's a term that's been in use for several years. If you go to the SOJ site you will see it used. I doubt that we will see that term applied to North American-spec models.

Bob

jlemole · June 2003

lucien2 · June 2003

it's the designation for the Legacy twin-turbo sedan sold in Japan, Oz, and New Zealand.

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