Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Most popular vehicles
Popular New Cars
- New Acura MDX
- New Acura RDX
- New Audi Q5
- New BMW 3 Series
- New BMW X3
- New Buick Enclave
- New Cadillac Escalade
- New Chevrolet Equinox
- New Chrysler 300
- New Dodge Challenger
- New Ford Edge
- New Ford Escape
- New Ford Expedition
- New Ford Explorer
- New Ford F-150
- New Ford Focus
- New Ford Mustang
- New Honda Accord
- New Honda Civic
- New Honda CR-V
- New Honda Fit
- New Honda Odyssey
- New Honda Pilot
- New Hyundai Elantra
- New Hyundai Santa Fe
- New Hyundai Sonata
- New Hyundai Tucson
- New Jeep Compass
- New Jeep Grand Cherokee
- New Jeep Wrangler
- New Mazda 3
- New Mazda 6
- New Mazda CX-5
- New Nissan Altima
- New Nissan Maxima
- New Nissan Rogue
- New Porsche Cayenne
- New Ram 1500
- New Subaru Crosstrek
- New Subaru Forester
- New Subaru Impreza
- New Subaru Outback
- New Tesla Model S
- New Tesla Model X
- New Toyota 4Runner
- New Toyota Camry
- New Toyota Corolla
- New Toyota Highlander
- New Toyota Prius
- New Toyota RAV4
- New Toyota Sienna
- New Toyota Tacoma
- New Volkswagen Jetta
- New Volvo XC60
- New Volvo XC90
Popular Used Sedans
- Used BMW 5 Series
- Used Chevrolet Impala
- Used Chevrolet Malibu
- Used Chrysler 200
- Used Dodge Charger
- Used Ford Fusion
- Used Ford Taurus
- Used Honda Accord
- Used Honda Civic
- Used Hyundai Elantra
- Used Hyundai Sonata
- Used Tesla Model S
- Used Toyota Camry
- Used Toyota Corolla
- Used Volkswagen Jetta
Popular Used SUVs
- Used Acura MDX
- Used Acura RDX
- Used Ford Edge
- Used Ford Explorer
- Used Honda CR-V
- Used Honda Pilot
- Used Hyundai Santa Fe
- Used Jeep Compass
- Used Lincoln Navigator
- Used Mazda CX-5
- Used Nissan Rogue
- Used Subaru Crosstrek
- Used Subaru Forester
- Used Tesla Model X
- Used Volvo XC90
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
1. Prius is a larger car inside and out, and not in the "compact" class like the HCH.
2. HCH is usually WAY cheaper and less equipped than a Prius. MAXXED OUT HCH is about 22K out the door, and with the prices Priuses are going, you can easily get up to 30K with a Prius.
3. HCH looks more like a "regular" car, so if you could care less about advertising your Green-ness, then the HCH is fine.
The Prius and HCH do not really "compete" against one another directly because they are different classes of cars and fit different lifestyles and price ranges.
Electric motors are sturdier than ICE, and are actually easier to work on than any gasoline or diesel engine. It is just a matter of understanding "electrical engineering".
HCH and Prius are virtually identical on the outside and inside (a small edge goes to Prius). EPA classification of cars based on size (sub compact versus compact versus mid size versus full size) is based off, not only the cabin volume but also the cargo space. So, a sedan with 94 cu ft cabin with 10 cu ft trunk space would quality as a compact (< 110 cu ft combined) whereas a sedan/hatchback with 94 cu ft cabin and 16 cu ft trunk space would get classified as a mid size.
You think a Prius will never, ever have a tough to figure out problem?
Any car can have problems.
This is how rumors get started.
Yup, and that's why auto manufacturers have such a bad reputation. If a problem develops in a product and can be repaired quickly and permanently, then that is fair. However, if a problem develops, and recurs again after maybe 2 attempts at repair, the product should be replaced and the problem resolved on the manufacturer's time. That goes for anything; toasters, cars, whatever. If someone buys a product in good faith, they deserve better than to have to repeatedly try to get it into the condition that it should have been in in the first place.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
Very simple. The battery light keeps coming on, that is the complaint. Either test the battery to see if it will take a full charge or replace it if they don't have a mechanic with a volt meter. As far as the battery price, you tell me what the replacement price is for a new OEM battery for that car. I was repeating a price I saw a few months back. Hybrid parts seem to be a company secret that is hard to squeeze out of the dealers. Maybe because they are very expensive.
By the way. Are those alloys on the HCH butt-ugly or what? I hope Honda designed them for aerodynamic efficiency and not because they thought they were stylish.
I am pretty sure the batteries in the HCH are similar to Insight, which were 144 D-cells. Since they are made by Panasonic, both Costco and BJ's sell them for cheap. Those are high efficiency 2300 mAh AA batteries, haven't seen D-cell. I am sure, by the time the warranty is up on the HCH, you can simply go to Costco or BJ's and buy whatever you need to replace the D-cell batteries in DIY setting. There is nothing more complex about the HCH than an R/C toy. And you see kids, including my self building those in DIY settings. There are new Ni-MH batteries from Sanyo with 7500 mAh capacities out there hitting R/c market. I am sure, those can be adopted for HCH.
Does anyone know if the "air cleaner element" mentioned in the HCH Owner's Manual is the same thing as an air filter?
That is a different animal than the engine air filter.
Getting them at Costco may be a stretch. If they are the only "D" size NiMH 6500 Mah cell that Panasonic lists on their website. They can be purchased from Digikey part # HHR-650DA08. I have used Digikey for Panasonic UPS battery replacements. They have as low a price as any place I have found for batteries on the web. They have them in stock for $18.75 each. It may save someone a lot of money vs buying from Honda. That is still $2700 wholesale for that battery.
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?KeywordSearch
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panaso- nic_NiMH_HHR650D.pdf
In your research have you ever seen the price of that replacement battery from Honda?
They do save money on the smaller ICE. I am sure that is taken up with that electric motor that cannot be cheap. Plus all the electronics that make it work together. I think they are still building them at a loss or very thin margin.
As for the batteries themselves, I’m sure Honda/Toyota get it cheaper in bulk than a typical customer would. However, $5K price tag is just too far fetched IMO. To get real numbers, you’ve to ask real people who deal with it on an everyday basis, or have at least owned a hybrid for a relatively long time. As for pricing, just wait and see, how competition creeps in, likely not unlike after market stuff that people spend money on.
And no, I don't think Honda/Toyota are losing money on hybrids.
http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/index.php?news=2324
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?KeywordSearch
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panaso- nic_NiMH_HHR650D.pdf
$18.75x144=2700 retail. Figure the store marks it up 30%, then wholesale is $12.18. Volume buyer like Honda probably gets it for under $10.00 $10.00x144=$1440.00 for the battery pack.
Figure competition from Sanyo, that has a 9000 mAh battery out (in C size cell) will drive the prices lower. And then Chinese manufacturers, who just recently entered Ni-MH market with their "Powerizer" battery, will drive the prices further down. I just bought 24 "Powerizer" AA 2300 mAh cells for $25 with free shipping at http://www.batteryspace.com. I tested them at work. Fresh they can hold almost 3000 mAh. A D cell from them would probably be close to 9000 mAh, and cost about $3.
Even if the batteries are spot welded, they can be replaced. There are lots of R/C places that match cells and spot weld them into packs.
Edit Just found the D-cells from "Powerizer"
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&Pro- dID=711&HS=1 comes out to $4.50/cellx144=$648 to replace the whole battery tray in HCH with higher capacity 9500 mAh Ni-Mh batteries, today. By the time the batteries need replacing in most Hybrids the prices will be lower and capacity will be higher.
Sounds like you have had better luck with off brand batteries than we have. We went through a phase of ordering "off brand" cellular batteries. Most came back from the customers in short order. It made me a firm believer in OEM high quality batteries. If they were that great do you think Toyota and Honda would pay top dollar for name brand? We are the retailer and buy from Digikey. If you can find a cheaper wholesale price for Panasonic batteries I would be interested. I would be more concerned about what I put in my transportation vehicle than my radio controlled toy car.
Not to mention that there has been a rash of cell phone batteries EXPLODING, because the cheaper manufacturors didn't do the over temp circuits to specifications, or didn't vent the batteries, etc. Wouldn't want that happening to a hybrid...
This is a very good point.
I've heard that the hybrid car batteries are manufactured under the most strict QC possible.
Isn't the Prius cells a triangular form?
I can imagine some bright entrepreneur would find a way to verify the integrity of each HCH battery cell, and find matches from other sources.....such as bone yards from wrecked cars may be a possibility.
I'm sure salvage yards will LOVE to get their hands on a smashed hybrid !
Why do you assume that the "Battery Light" means there's a problem with the battery? It could be a loose wire... a faulty motor... or even a computer chip that went nuts. (I had a bad computer chip in my Dodge...it insisted I had a bad engine...but the engine was brand-new.)
You make an interesting point. I asked what happens to all the old traction batteries when hybrids start to get old. I was told on this forum that Toyota in the case of the Prius has facilities to recycle the old batteries and every other component of the hybrid system. Are the automakers going to buy back the old hybrids?
When we all need to replace the packs in our HCH's, Im sure we will see some aftermarket choices. Until then I will stick with stock!
That's interesting. I replaced the batteries in a few UPS. The APC brand seemed to work OK afterwards. The Best Fortress brand would not work after replacing a dead battery. It needed calibration. The factory wanted us to ship it to them. It was not worth the round trip air freight. So it is sitting on a shelf.
When we all need to replace the packs in our HCH's, Im sure we will see some aftermarket choices. Until then I will stick with stock!
The most obvious answer would be that:
A) Honda has the recalibration built in, as the batteries are meant to be replaced. I don't think that Honda engineers were so short sighted and did not think that batteris wouls eventually need replacement and have not made provisions for such.
C) Hondata or other aftermarket manuafacturer will have a hand held, or laptop based solution.
D) Computer does not need recalibration as the batteries go from full to empty and the IMA seems to know when they are full and when they are empty, and adjusts accordingly.
I think D is the most probably answer.
for more information on how to reset the UPS. I also have a Word Doc on how to do it on the SmartUPS rackmount models. Let me know if you want a copy.
Fortress UPS are crap. We were fortunate to have 80% of our rack mount UPS units function after a battery replacement, with no recalibration. The other 20% ended up on the surplus pallet.
Sorry, this discussion probably belongs in another geeky forum
I believe it is relevant to the hybrid. It sounds like many feel the traction battery will be a plug and play type change out, when and if it needs it.
" I was repeating a price I saw a few months back"
Yes, you did. People read this stuff and believe it just like you did!
I asked recently, and so far, our busy, high volume shop has replaced ZERO hybrid batteries! This includes all of the Insights we have sold that have lots of miles on them at this point.
Not going to comment on the rest of your ideas, but the engineers did plan for replacement batteries: OEM replacement batteries, that is, with known specs that match the original calibration.
Yes I'm serious.
Even if the battery is "weak" after 20 years or 200,000 miles of use, why bother replacing it? The Honda can work perfectly fine without it, because it's got the backup starter & 12V battery, and can operate just like a "normal" 90 horsepower car.
I agree that facts are better than fiction. What are the facts? How much does a replacement traction battery cost someone that has gone past his warranty? The hybrids you have sold that have LOTS of miles. How many are over the 100k mile mark. The website that seems to attract the hybrid owners does not show any HCH over 50k miles. I would hope the battery lasts at least that long. I researched the Panasonic "D" cells that may or may not be the ones used in the HCH and they cost wholesale about $2700. So a retail price of $5k is not out of line. U sell Hondas you tell us.
Instead of guessing or passing along false rumors, I'll try to remember to ask someone when I get in today.
I would think the fact that out of the MANY Insights and Hybrids that we have sold and service the fact we haven't had to replace any batteries would put people here at ease a bit.
Not in your case, it would seem?
I'll move this to the battery debate before we get moved....
They also re-confirmed that at this point we have yet to replace even a single battery.
Insights are about half that price because Honda sells some kind of a remanufactured package. Again, we have seen zero failures.
Hope that helps.
That's what I like FACTS. Now I can say the cost to replace the HCH traction battery including labor is around $2400. Hopefully you won't need it.
And, remember, it's 2400.00 right now. They expect this to drop dramatically as time go's by.
calls it a traction battery, in Honda speak its the IMA battery (as opposed to the 12 volt battery)
but more to the point this traction/IMA battery replacement cost is way overblown, its kinda like talking the cost of replacing main bearings, hopefully I won't need to.
at 18,000 price-tag.
After all LX is the most sold model and people could have bought
this affordable one. Honda can put the same Hybrid system which
they use in Civic-EX model in Civic-LX hybrid it will not cost much.
This will help Honda sell more hybrids and close the gap with
Toyota.
made by Wix. The part number is 24817. It takes two and there were two in one box. Total cost for them including tax was $22.83.
The hardest part of the job is putting all of your junk back into the glove box when you are
finished. There is no reason to pay the dealer big bucks for such a simple job.
3.2 Qts if you leave the filter.
3.4 Qts if you change the filter.
I put in exactly 3.2 qts, which filled it perfectly to the top line on the dipstick. Used a small screwdriver to remove the plastic clips holding the plastic guard under the engine. No problemo.
I recenty read an on-line article about the evolution of the Civic (www.hotrod.com/thehistoryof/113_0306_civic/). THe author commented that the 84 CRX was rated at 51 mpg city / 67 mpg highway with a 1.3 L engine and a vehicle weight of about 1800-1900 lbs (Civic Duty, Alan Paradise). The current Civic hybrid weighs about 2700 lbs with the same displacement engine. I can see the reduction in fuel economy by the increased vehicle weight of the current Civic hybrid (46-51). However, with the electric motor assist, it seems that the fuel economy should be better. The fuel economy on the Insight (vehicle weight 1850 lbs, 1 L engine) suggests that a vehicle of the aerodynamic shape and weight of the Insight would be consistent with the rated fuel economy (61/66) with no electric motor assist (i.e. a large motorcycle with no driver wind drag).
I recenty read an on-line article about the evolution of the Civic (www.hotrod.com/thehistoryof/113_0306_civic/). THe author commented that the 84 CRX was rated at 51 mpg city / 67 mpg highway with a 1.3 L engine and a vehicle weight of about 1800-1900 lbs (Civic Duty, Alan Paradise). The current Civic hybrid weighs about 2700 lbs with the same displacement engine. I can see the reduction in fuel economy by the increased vehicle weight of the current Civic hybrid (46-51). However, with the electric motor assist, it seems that the fuel economy should be better. The fuel economy on the Insight (vehicle weight 1850 lbs, 1 L engine) suggests that a vehicle of the aerodynamic shape and weight of the Insight would be consistent with the rated fuel economy (61/66) with no electric motor assist (i.e. a large motorcycle with no driver wind drag).
I agree, I used to have an 85 Civic DX (hatchback), and regularly achieved 45+ MPG (when gas was $0.80-$0.99/gal), while beating on it. If one has to adjust the driving style you can get a Suburban to do 20 mpg (50% improvment) if you coast and drive at 30 mph all day. The current HX gets 45 mpg driven NORMALLY.
http://www.quickhonda.net/factorySpecs.htm
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Spec_Glance.aspx?modelid=10983&- amp;trimid=98224&src=VIP
2004 Civic EX ** 1991 Civic CRX-HF **
127 HP@6,300 RPM ** 62 HP@4,500 RPM
114 Ft.-Lb’s@4,800 RPM ** 90 Ft.-Lb’s@ 2,000 RPM
2,612 #’s ** 1,960 #’s
32 City/37 Hwy ** 49 City/52 Hwy
0-60:8.81 seconds ** 0-60:11.8 seconds
___The 04 Civic EX vs. the 91 CRX-HF gained about 650 #’s, added a ton of amenities, safety and emissions HW, and had its 0 to 60 mph times decreased by ~ 3 seconds (8.8 vs. 11.8). That is what happened to that 15 mpg ;-)
___IIRC, one of or maybe all the high mileage CRX’s (HF/CX/VX) had a lean burn ICE and an alternator that clutched in and out depending on voltage of the battery so as to not be a drag. I am not exactly sure which one or if but I remember reading a post by Rick Reese about such an animal?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I don't think HF had VTEC-E. VTEC-E was reserved for Civic VX. CX was just the cheapest Civic out there with no power steering.
As far as I remember, de-activating alternator did not show up until 2001 model. Electric Power steering and de-activating A/c did not show up until the '00 S2000, and '02 Si.
Look at the HF's final drive ratio. It was 2.95, but at the same time it had almost as much torque at 2000 RPM (90) as the Si did at 5000 RPM (100)