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Honda Civic Hybrid

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  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,844
    "We went through a phase of ordering "off brand" cellular batteries. Most came back from the customers in short order. It made me a firm believer in OEM high quality batteries"

    Not to mention that there has been a rash of cell phone batteries EXPLODING, because the cheaper manufacturors didn't do the over temp circuits to specifications, or didn't vent the batteries, etc. Wouldn't want that happening to a hybrid...
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    "Not to mention that there has been a rash of cell phone batteries EXPLODING, because the cheaper manufacturers didn't do the over temp circuits to specifications, or didn't vent the batteries, etc. Wouldn't want that happening to a hybrid"

    This is a very good point.
    I've heard that the hybrid car batteries are manufactured under the most strict QC possible.
    Isn't the Prius cells a triangular form?

    I can imagine some bright entrepreneur would find a way to verify the integrity of each HCH battery cell, and find matches from other sources.....such as bone yards from wrecked cars may be a possibility.
    I'm sure salvage yards will LOVE to get their hands on a smashed hybrid !
  • Question:

    Why do you assume that the "Battery Light" means there's a problem with the battery? It could be a loose wire... a faulty motor... or even a computer chip that went nuts. (I had a bad computer chip in my Dodge...it insisted I had a bad engine...but the engine was brand-new.)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,090
    I'm sure salvage yards will LOVE to get their hands on a smashed hybrid !

    You make an interesting point. I asked what happens to all the old traction batteries when hybrids start to get old. I was told on this forum that Toyota in the case of the Prius has facilities to recycle the old batteries and every other component of the hybrid system. Are the automakers going to buy back the old hybrids?
  • dselldsell Posts: 18
    Uhm... Im sorry to burst everyone's DIY'er bubble (myself included), but a 144 D Cell battery pack seems like it wouldnt be nice to work on. And even if you increase capacity by several amp-hours using better technology, would the HCH IMA controller be able to handle the calibration? This is going back to my experience working on Uninteruptable Power Supplies. Replacing batteries almost always requires a recalibration of the runtime computer, which the IMA battery controller would most certainly be based on. Most computers can calibrate one way when the battery degrades, but they usually cant go back without a factory reset of some sort.

    When we all need to replace the packs in our HCH's, Im sure we will see some aftermarket choices. Until then I will stick with stock!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,090
    Replacing batteries almost always requires a recalibration of the runtime computer

    That's interesting. I replaced the batteries in a few UPS. The APC brand seemed to work OK afterwards. The Best Fortress brand would not work after replacing a dead battery. It needed calibration. The factory wanted us to ship it to them. It was not worth the round trip air freight. So it is sitting on a shelf.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,797
    Uhm... Im sorry to burst everyone's DIY'er bubble (myself included), but a 144 D Cell battery pack seems like it wouldnt be nice to work on. And even if you increase capacity by several amp-hours using better technology, would the HCH IMA controller be able to handle the calibration? This is going back to my experience working on Uninteruptable Power Supplies. Replacing batteries almost always requires a recalibration of the runtime computer, which the IMA battery controller would most certainly be based on. Most computers can calibrate one way when the battery degrades, but they usually cant go back without a factory reset of some sort.

    When we all need to replace the packs in our HCH's, Im sure we will see some aftermarket choices. Until then I will stick with stock!


    The most obvious answer would be that:
    A) Honda has the recalibration built in, as the batteries are meant to be replaced. I don't think that Honda engineers were so short sighted and did not think that batteris wouls eventually need replacement and have not made provisions for such.

    B) DIY battery replacement would require a visit to the dealer the be hooked up to their computer to re-calibrate.

    C) Hondata or other aftermarket manuafacturer will have a hand held, or laptop based solution.

    D) Computer does not need recalibration as the batteries go from full to empty and the IMA seems to know when they are full and when they are empty, and adjusts accordingly.

    I think D is the most probably answer.
  • dselldsell Posts: 18
    APC UPS need recalibration no matter what, otherwise you will not get the proper runtimes out of your new batteries. Check out http://eu1.networkupstools.org/protocols/apcsmart.html
    for more information on how to reset the UPS. I also have a Word Doc on how to do it on the SmartUPS rackmount models. Let me know if you want a copy.

    Fortress UPS are crap. We were fortunate to have 80% of our rack mount UPS units function after a battery replacement, with no recalibration. The other 20% ended up on the surplus pallet.

    Sorry, this discussion probably belongs in another geeky forum =).
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,090
    Thank you for the info. We use all APC SmartUPS rack mounts now. They seem to be good.

    I believe it is relevant to the hybrid. It sounds like many feel the traction battery will be a plug and play type change out, when and if it needs it.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,865
    I hate it when someone starts a rumor by throwing out something on the internst like you just did!

    " I was repeating a price I saw a few months back"

    Yes, you did. People read this stuff and believe it just like you did!

    I asked recently, and so far, our busy, high volume shop has replaced ZERO hybrid batteries! This includes all of the Insights we have sold that have lots of miles on them at this point.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,844
    "A) Honda has the recalibration built in, as the batteries are meant to be replaced. I don't think that Honda engineers were so short sighted and did not think that batteris wouls eventually need replacement and have not made provisions for such."

    Not going to comment on the rest of your ideas, but the engineers did plan for replacement batteries: OEM replacement batteries, that is, with known specs that match the original calibration.
  • Why bother?

    Yes I'm serious.

    Even if the battery is "weak" after 20 years or 200,000 miles of use, why bother replacing it? The Honda can work perfectly fine without it, because it's got the backup starter & 12V battery, and can operate just like a "normal" 90 horsepower car.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,090
    I asked recently, and so far, our busy, high volume shop has replaced ZERO hybrid batteries! This includes all of the Insights we have sold that have lots of miles on them at this point.

    I agree that facts are better than fiction. What are the facts? How much does a replacement traction battery cost someone that has gone past his warranty? The hybrids you have sold that have LOTS of miles. How many are over the 100k mile mark. The website that seems to attract the hybrid owners does not show any HCH over 50k miles. I would hope the battery lasts at least that long. I researched the Panasonic "D" cells that may or may not be the ones used in the HCH and they cost wholesale about $2700. So a retail price of $5k is not out of line. U sell Hondas you tell us.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,865
    I know of at least one Insight that comes into our shop that has over 90K. Same batteries.

    Instead of guessing or passing along false rumors, I'll try to remember to ask someone when I get in today.

    I would think the fact that out of the MANY Insights and Hybrids that we have sold and service the fact we haven't had to replace any batteries would put people here at ease a bit.

    Not in your case, it would seem?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Thats a good point. But, one question... what would happen to idle-stop feature? Perhaps it won't happen if there is no charge in the batteries.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,090
    I would think the fact that out of the MANY Insights and Hybrids that we have sold and service the fact we haven't had to replace any batteries would put people here at ease a bit.

    I'll move this to the battery debate before we get moved....
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,865
    Because I'm done. I asked the service and parts guys and they said "no more than 2400.00" parts and labor to replace the batteries in a Hybrid. They also expect prices to drop WAY below that in the future.

    They also re-confirmed that at this point we have yet to replace even a single battery.

    Insights are about half that price because Honda sells some kind of a remanufactured package. Again, we have seen zero failures.

    Hope that helps.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,090
    "no more than 2400.00" parts and labor to replace the batteries in a Hybrid."

    That's what I like FACTS. Now I can say the cost to replace the HCH traction battery including labor is around $2400. Hopefully you won't need it.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,865
    A "traction" battery? Never heard that before.

    And, remember, it's 2400.00 right now. They expect this to drop dramatically as time go's by.
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    Toyota http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2005/prius/key_features/pc/index.h- tml

    calls it a traction battery, in Honda speak its the IMA battery (as opposed to the 12 volt battery)
    but more to the point this traction/IMA battery replacement cost is way overblown, its kinda like talking the cost of replacing main bearings, hopefully I won't need to.
  • yerth10yerth10 Posts: 428
    I wish Honda must have launched an hybrid version of Civic-LX

    at 18,000 price-tag.

     

    After all LX is the most sold model and people could have bought

    this affordable one. Honda can put the same Hybrid system which

    they use in Civic-EX model in Civic-LX hybrid it will not cost much.

     

    This will help Honda sell more hybrids and close the gap with

    Toyota.
  • What is the dealership name?
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Just a quick note about changing the cabin air filters (located behind the glove box and very easy to get to). I changed mine yesterday and it took all of about 5 minutes. The ones I used were

    made by Wix. The part number is 24817. It takes two and there were two in one box. Total cost for them including tax was $22.83.

     

    The hardest part of the job is putting all of your junk back into the glove box when you are

    finished. There is no reason to pay the dealer big bucks for such a simple job.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Oil Change Info:

     

    3.2 Qts if you leave the filter.

    3.4 Qts if you change the filter.

     

    I put in exactly 3.2 qts, which filled it perfectly to the top line on the dipstick. Used a small screwdriver to remove the plastic clips holding the plastic guard under the engine. No problemo.
  • john500john500 Posts: 409
    What is the efficiency of the electric engine in the Civic and the Hybrid?

    I recenty read an on-line article about the evolution of the Civic (www.hotrod.com/thehistoryof/113_0306_civic/). THe author commented that the 84 CRX was rated at 51 mpg city / 67 mpg highway with a 1.3 L engine and a vehicle weight of about 1800-1900 lbs (Civic Duty, Alan Paradise). The current Civic hybrid weighs about 2700 lbs with the same displacement engine. I can see the reduction in fuel economy by the increased vehicle weight of the current Civic hybrid (46-51). However, with the electric motor assist, it seems that the fuel economy should be better. The fuel economy on the Insight (vehicle weight 1850 lbs, 1 L engine) suggests that a vehicle of the aerodynamic shape and weight of the Insight would be consistent with the rated fuel economy (61/66) with no electric motor assist (i.e. a large motorcycle with no driver wind drag).
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,797
    What is the efficiency of the electric engine in the Civic and the Hybrid?

    I recenty read an on-line article about the evolution of the Civic (www.hotrod.com/thehistoryof/113_0306_civic/). THe author commented that the 84 CRX was rated at 51 mpg city / 67 mpg highway with a 1.3 L engine and a vehicle weight of about 1800-1900 lbs (Civic Duty, Alan Paradise). The current Civic hybrid weighs about 2700 lbs with the same displacement engine. I can see the reduction in fuel economy by the increased vehicle weight of the current Civic hybrid (46-51). However, with the electric motor assist, it seems that the fuel economy should be better. The fuel economy on the Insight (vehicle weight 1850 lbs, 1 L engine) suggests that a vehicle of the aerodynamic shape and weight of the Insight would be consistent with the rated fuel economy (61/66) with no electric motor assist (i.e. a large motorcycle with no driver wind drag).


     

    I agree, I used to have an 85 Civic DX (hatchback), and regularly achieved 45+ MPG (when gas was $0.80-$0.99/gal), while beating on it. If one has to adjust the driving style you can get a Suburban to do 20 mpg (50% improvment) if you coast and drive at 30 mph all day. The current HX gets 45 mpg driven NORMALLY.
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Misterme:

     

    http://www.quickhonda.net/factorySpecs.htm

     

    http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Spec_Glance.aspx?modelid=10983&- amp;trimid=98224&src=VIP

     

    2004 Civic EX ** 1991 Civic CRX-HF **

    127 HP@6,300 RPM ** 62 HP@4,500 RPM

    114 Ft.-Lb’s@4,800 RPM ** 90 Ft.-Lb’s@ 2,000 RPM

    2,612 #’s ** 1,960 #’s

    32 City/37 Hwy ** 49 City/52 Hwy

    0-60:8.81 seconds ** 0-60:11.8 seconds

     

    ___The 04 Civic EX vs. the 91 CRX-HF gained about 650 #’s, added a ton of amenities, safety and emissions HW, and had its 0 to 60 mph times decreased by ~ 3 seconds (8.8 vs. 11.8). That is what happened to that 15 mpg ;-)

     

    ___IIRC, one of or maybe all the high mileage CRX’s (HF/CX/VX) had a lean burn ICE and an alternator that clutched in and out depending on voltage of the battery so as to not be a drag. I am not exactly sure which one or if but I remember reading a post by Rick Reese about such an animal?

     

    ___Good Luck

     

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    Thanks for the data xcel, that clears it up!
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,797
    ___IIRC, one of or maybe all the high mileage CRX’s (HF/CX/VX) had a lean burn ICE and an alternator that clutched in and out depending on voltage of the battery so as to not be a drag. I am not exactly sure which one or if but I remember reading a post by Rick Reese about such an animal?

     

    I don't think HF had VTEC-E. VTEC-E was reserved for Civic VX. CX was just the cheapest Civic out there with no power steering.

    As far as I remember, de-activating alternator did not show up until 2001 model. Electric Power steering and de-activating A/c did not show up until the '00 S2000, and '02 Si.

     

    Look at the HF's final drive ratio. It was 2.95, but at the same time it had almost as much torque at 2000 RPM (90) as the Si did at 5000 RPM (100)
  • My I also add the most obvious thing that has been overlooked. The CRX is a small two door two seater. The Civix Hybrid is a 4 door 5 seater. It would be better to compare the 2 seater CRX to the 2 seater Insight.
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