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Ferrari-the Ultimate classic (Ferrari Lovefest Topic)

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Comments

  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,615
    Tsaupe (328 owner) could answer your question better than I but IMHO a nice original is always better than a restoration.

    I'd question why a car was stripped and repainted @ 40K (or less).

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,779
    Nah, you are probably talking to someone who remembers horror stories about the 80-81 308si cars, that had some bad ring problems.

    I think the 328 is the best of that era of Ferraris and 40K isn't too bad.

    You have to figure at least $1 a mile to drive this car, so if $3,000 a year for maintenance makes you swallow hard, then don't do it, because that's what it will cost.

    I also agree I'd go for the car that is the most original and with the best service records. That repaint sounds awfully unusual, and plenty of Ferraris get "smacked" without ever appearing on CARFAX. Carfax only uses public records of totals or in most cases (not all) cars with accident reports. So if the car was say dented to the tune of $15,000, and no accident report was filed, then the car will not appear on CARFAX.

    MODERATOR

  • Thanks both for the quick responses. I'm going to drive one of the cars (the one that was not repainted) on Saturday. It's probably too much to expect CARFAX to be all-knowing - I can see how someone would be motivated to have minor bodywork done off the record. Unless Ferrari paint is unusually bad (doubt that), or the car was stored outside (really doubt that), you're right that a repaint at 40,000 miles isn't a good sign.

    On another note, I called Ferrari-Maserati of OC and they told me they stopped doing PPIs six months ago, due to liability concerns. That gives me some pause, because more than one person has told me a PPI was money well spent.

    With regard to the cost, any of the 2-seaters I was considering as new car purchases would probably depreciate more than $3K annually. So, the maintenance costs, while shocking to Accord owners, seem acceptable to me. Frankly, the $642 front brake job on my ex-daily ride, a BMW 325 coupe, irked me more than the prospect of a $1K oil change on a Ferrari would. That sounds irrational, as I look at what I just wrote, but it's true.

    Thanks again for the replies -- also enjoyed reading the great earlier discussions here, esp. the one about the guy who gave the boy a ride in his Ferrari.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,779
    Actually Ferrari paint from that era isn't very good, sad to say. As Enzo himself used to tell owners: "You buy the engine, we give you the body".

    If you can't get a PPI at least you have to see all the service records. The 30K service should be done, as that's a $3,000-$5,000 job depending. Fortunately, you don't have to remove the engine to do the service as with say a 348 or a TR.

    Be on the lookout for oil leaks and poor running. You really need to buy these cars tip top or not at all.

    MODERATOR

  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    Sheesh, i don't check the board for a couple of days and it gets active again! Billymay, welcome to the hunt for a good 328. As, Andys120 said, I'm an owner, and I'd be glad to assist in anyway I can. Although I'm on the opposite coast, at least I may be able to help with some suggestions.

    The prices you've been quoted are in the ball park. I've seen good 328s selling locally anywhere from low to mid 40K to the mid 70K range. The latter for a car which had only 1200 miles on it and had been completely gone through by a respected shop in our area.

    You definetly are not buying a parts car. I have about 52K on mine now and it is still in great shape. Andys120, who saw it over the summer, can vouch for its condition. The key is to buy a car that is good to begin with. To be assured of that you really need a PPI. If your local dealer won't do it, look for an independent shop of good reputation. Talk to other owners if the dealer balks at sharing info. You might want to join Ferrari Chat for even more opinions and help. (Mr. Shiftright, Am I allowed to say that here?).

    I would stay away from repaints. I always think they're hiding something. Although some of the early 70s cars had paint problems, I haven't met anyone with bad paint on a later 328. As I said, my paint is fine and the car is rust free. I use it, in the good weather, as a daily driver and my only complaints are a small parking lot ding in the passengers door and another in the hood, probably from an acorn. Yes, I have a few chips from road use, but quality touch up paint does the trick in covering them. A respray is several years down the road for me.

    3K/ yr maintenance cost is probably an average. I think last year I spent about $1200 all toll, this past summer about $300, not including new tires. However, that average will change as it will go in for its 50K major over the winter and that runs about 5K. Actually a bit less as many shops and dealers run deals if you'll let them have your car for the winter and they can do the work at their pace. Unfortunately, that probably doesn't help in sunny CA.

    Be sure that any car you look at has ALL of the maintenance records with it and check them carefully. If the 30K major, including belt service hasn't been done, it should be reflected in the price. Again, you're talking 5K. Either have the owner get the service or take the cost off the asking price.

    Once you've driven one or two, you might have driving impressions to ask about, please feel free to ask, either here or email me privately. I don't claim expertise, but I've owned my 328 for several years now and it's our third Ferrari, so I might be able to help or steer you towards help.

    Good luck with the search!

    Andys120, you might be interested in an upcoming lecture at the Lars Anderson Museum. This December 4th, Peter Wright, who wrote "Ferrari F1 Revealed" will be talking about the Ferrari F1 program and the state of F1 in general. the lecture is at 12:30 Pm. Check the museum website for further info. Hope to see you there!

    Tom
  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    I just received an email from Ferrari describing the new Superamerica model. It's going to be shown at Paris in January 2005. Based on the 575M, it features an horsepower boost to 540. It comes with the GTC (competition) suspension package and has a retractable carbon fibre roof. According to the factory, this roof rotates down in 10 seconds and when it's stowed doesn't interfere with trunk space. It also has a new glass system which permits the driver to automatically select one of five degrees of tint. That'll be nice on sunny days!

    The car's a limited addition, like the 550 Barchetta. Picture a topless 575 on which the B pillar has been partially retained when the roof is retracted. It also appears to have a (pop-up?) roll bar over the rear luggage deck.

    It's really attractive. No price announced yet, but as a limited addition I recommend rushing to the dealership to place your order. I'm sure it will be very affordable. ;-)
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,615
    I'll restrict my comments on the new Superamerica and F430 to the styling, since there's little chance I'll ever get to drive either :=(

     

    The Superamerica is a disappointment to me and not worthy of that august name. The original Superamericas were the very top-the-line Ferraris and featured bold styling that was shared with no other Ferraris but the new car is simply a derivative of the Maranello, IMO the least distinguished of the current lineup from a design standpoint.

     

    Back in the day of the glorious 250 Ferraris Enzo's personal Ferrari was the 400 Superamerica. I doubt the Commendatore would chose the new one for his ride if he were living.

     

    The new F430, OTOH, has a great look. The nostrils are much more shaped and styled than the simple over size holes that mar the visage of the 360 Modena. It doesn't hurt that the new nose resembles that of Phil Hill's F1 Dino 246 and some of the Chiti designed sports racers.

     

    The Enzo-style tailights are IMO less successful. I wish Ferrari would stick with the simple four round t/l designs that have been part of their design language for so long.

     

    All in all bravo!

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    Andy, I can't say I agree with you about the Superamerica, although I definetly understand your sentiments. The new car is obviously signalling the end of the 575, just as the Barchetta did for the 550. It's not an original design, But I'm not convinced it defames the name.

     

    I saw Enzo's Superamerica go at auction at Monterey a few years ago, and there's a great shot of it in the movie "Grand Prix." It truly is a beautiful car. But, it's also the pinnacle of design ideas from that era. Whereas I agree that the F430 certainly reaches towards those heights now. Also, I agree that the taillights don't work, however I'll reserve final judgment until I see it in the flesh.
  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    Just sitting here on Xmas Eve wondering how Santa is going to get that 550M down the chimney and out through the wood stove without scratching the paint. Gosh, I hope he got my letter!

     

    Merry Christmas, Happy holidays to all. Best wishes for a healthy and happy New Year.

     

    Tom
  • kscctsksccts Posts: 140
    Thanks, Tom. same to you.

     

    Keith
  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    It's interesting that with the very strong prices for high end Ferraris at the Monterey auctions and other auctions since, that the low end cars are beginning to enjoy a come back. Albeit modest, lately GT4s have been selling back in the mid 20K range, for very good cars. Sure you can still get problems for under 20k, but that's true of any model.

     

    There also seems to be a resurgence of interest in early carbed 308s and 328s are holding pretty strong prices as well. Is this trickle down, all the F1 wins or signs of a rising economy.

     

    It has always seemed that the middle end of the collector car market was the first to fall away in bad time and the last to come back in good times. Is this a sign of hope?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,779
    You can't give away a carbed 308 in California, which is a huge Ferrari market (can't smog 'em). I think any resurgence is just people not knowing what they are buying and snapping up the low end because they see the high end going up. So it's trickle down but not necessarily a good thing for the buyer.

     

    What you want is an '82 on up FI car or a 328.

    MODERATOR

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I got to see the F430 in Detroit last weekend. Man what a car! The most aggressive looking Ferrari in my short time of studying them. I mean this car is pure aggression. I can't wait to see what they'll do for the Stradale version in a couple of years. The Spyder version will be shown at Geneva in March.

     

    M
  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    Interesting about California. i guess on this coast we're not so tough in emissions standards for older cars. A number of people prefer the older carbed cars because their performance (the car's not the people's) is better. I agree about the 328. It really is the best of the series and perhaps one of the easiest Ferraris to live with. I know I love mine.

     

    And yes, the more I see and read about the 430, the more impressive it becomes. It's going to compete very well with the Gallardo which suffers from Lambos poor QC reputation. IMHO, deservedly.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,779
    Unless you know what you're doing with old Weber carbs you are going to have a hell of a time keeping them "just right".

    MODERATOR

  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    I remember when the back of every Road & Track had ads for a Unysn tool. Even with that, I couldn't get the Webers on my Lotus right!

     

    One of the most enjoyable days I ever at the shop that cares for my Ferrari was spent watching the mechanic set up the 4 Webers on my GT4 by ear. It's always a pleasure to watch a real master at work! This particular gentleman is a former Technical Director for Ferrari NA and "cut his teeth" on multiple Weber Fcars.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,615
    I used ny Unisyn to try to keep the Strombergs on my TR-4A in sync, never could get them right either.

     

    The single Weber in my Fiat 124 never gave a bit of trouble unless it was cold enough to make the choke linkage stick in the start position (max air).

     

    Fixing that required removing the air cleaner cover and unjamming the choke with your thumb, real fun on a snowy New York day.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,779
    SUs are easy compared to Webers, ten times easier.

     

    Usually people can't get SUs right because the throttle shafts are worn out and they leak air. If you don't rebore the throttle shafts you're wasting your time trying to synchronize them. Also the needles wear out with time.

     

    But the Webers are so fussy and you have three choices too lean, too rich and too medium.

     

    A carbed 308 Ferrari isn't even saleable in California. Not a prayer that you'd pass smog. Not a few new buyers got this unpleasant surprise.

    MODERATOR

  • SylviaSylvia Posts: 1,636
    Are up in our 2006 Ferrari F430 Spider Convertible discussion.

     

    Go, comment, drool, enjoy!
  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    Well, I went over and looked at the pictures. I'd seen them yesterday on the owners sight and some shot taken in Bahrain of the car on the road. The Bahrain photos were obviously not professional shots so, perhaps, that's where the test mule ended up.

     

    Anyway, I think it's lovely and actually think it has better lines than the GTB. That usually isn't the case. What so you guys think?
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,615
    Yep this is one car than looks better sans

    roof which isn't always the case.

     

    OTOH, compared to the 360 Spider, I like the 430 Spider better in the front but those tailights aren't as night as the simple t/ls of the 360.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,615
    do I say I don't like the rear and I see this shot..

     

    http://www.autoweek.com/files/specials/galleries/f430_spider/page- s/f430_sp_10.htm

     

    Looks nice from this angle, sez me.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Posts: 1,704
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Ferrari enthusiast magazine called Forza? I just read the most recent issue of it at the bookstore yesterday and they had great articles in it.

     

    This current issue had a comparison of a 328 GTS and a Mondial (both late '80s models). While the 328 only had about 20k miles on it, the Mondial had what was defined as "105k well-driven miles." Which brings me to my next comment: How anyone could get more than 100k miles out of a Ferrari is beyond me. I thought it couldn't be done because Shifty said Ferraris are just about well-used at around 80k miles.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,615
    There is a Ferrari-enthusiast magazine called Forza. I don't know if Cavallino

    is still published.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,615
    You've probably seen it, Tom, but in case you haven't, the new issue of Forza on the stands has a cover story on the 328 series. Haven't had a chance to read it yet myself.

     

    Ferrari weather is coming soon.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    Andy, Cavallino is still published and is one of the most beautifully photographed and well researched magazines around. It deals, almost exclusively, with historical cars, with some mention of new models as they appear. Yes, I read the article in Forza. It's always a pleasure to hear people say nice things about the car you love.

    Jrosasmc, with proper care an Fcar can go well beyond 100K. At least I hope so. Having just spent in excess of 6K on a major service and other things on my 52K mile 328, I'd like to get all the miles I can out of it.

    Will this winter ever end? Anyone in the New England area should make plans to see the Ralph Lauren Collection at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, this spring. It's going to be a great show.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,615
    Yes, as a matter of fact I picked up a new Cavallino the other day and it does have some great stuff about the Dino race cars and the 330P4 sports racers as well.

    I'm definitely planning to see the MFA exhibit.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • billymaybillymay Posts: 59
    Here's the story: I've been searching for a nice weekend sports car for a while, and got a serious crush on a 328 that got away. Before I drove that, I thought a pristine used 911 cabrio would be The Car. But then I drove this '86 328GTS in blu chiaro. Wow. It made the Porsche seem very plasticky and ordinary. But, it wasn't as nice as advertised, needed some paintwork due to scrapes, had enough minor trim things wrong that the asking price turned out to be a little, uh, optimistic.

    But, smitten by my new automotive lust object, I dropped the 911 search and have spent the last couple of months looking for a great pre-88 1/2 328. Easier said than done, even though I'm in SoCal and you'd think everyone and his mom has a Ferrari.

    Frustration. Today I get a call from a broker in Missouri, who deals in high-end cars and specializes in 993's. I had dropped him a note back in January, and he hadn't had much luck finding a low mileage 993 cabrio with my color criteria (hate grey interiors for some reason). As luck would have it, he has The Perfect car coming in, a '96 993 black/black/black with 11,000 miles. The car's never seen rain, no dings, no scrapes, yada yada yada. It really is primo, and the 993 is a few notches more attractive (in my eyes) than the portly 996.

    In the meantime, a couple of non-car people have told me I'd be an idiot to buy a Ferrari because (cue script here) they're unreliable, maintenance costs a ton, etc. Some of this is true, some of it's bull, but common wisdom isn't always wise. Yes, a 911's going to be less fussy, but the exotic factor just isn't there. I can deal with $4K every 3-4 years for a major belt service, and 328's have a good reputation for being tough cars (by Ferrari standards).

    So: I need this group to tell me whether I should grab the 911 and wait for the right 328 to come along, or whether I'd be an idiot not to take a pristine 911 cabriolet. I already have a daily driver - Jeep Liberty - so practical is not a requirement here.

    I can afford either, but I'm not sickeningly rich -- if I get the Porsche, that's my car purchase for '05.

    Sooooo... help.

    Jon aka Billymay
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,615
    that the 328 offers a much better driving experience than a 911, you should look for the right 328 (and it pays to be fussy). They aren't common but you should be able to find what you want.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • tsaupe1tsaupe1 Posts: 166
    than many Ferraris but it all comes down to getting the right one. It's better to pay a bit more up front for a really well sorted car than try to save and end up paying on the other end. You can't get much more different driving experiences between a 328 and a 911. Best to drive a couple of both models before deciding.
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