Ferrari-the Ultimate classic (Ferrari Lovefest Topic)

habitat1 · August 2005

..I think you may be drooling too much over you lust for Cameron Diaz.

But don't kid yourself! A 1987+/- 328 isn't Cameron Diaz. At least not a fresh one. It's a high maintenance date that has been passed around for 18 years. Hopefully a good inspection can help you avoid a mechanically transmitted disease.

Seriously, I won't dispute that Ferrari has a head turning quotient that is in a league of its own. And I still think the 328 is a heck of a good looking car. But having a friend that owns one and having seen how much time and money he puts into mainting it and his small fleet of other exotics and classics, I have decided that's not for me. I have too many other time and family priorities. Perhaps when I'm retired and get sick of golf, having a 15-20+ year old Ferrari to putz around with would be interesting.

If you decide to go that route, you have my best wishes. I really enjoy seeing the old Ferrari's finding a good home and occasionally adorning our streets with their flashing presence.

andys120 · August 2005

Where are all the Tifosi?

-Motor Trend has launched a new publication, Motor Trend Classic. It's premiere issue-Sept. 2005 features "The 10 Best Ferraris" as named by a panel of about two dozen experts including Luca diMotezemolo, Mario Andretti, Dan Gurney and others.

The list, restricted to street-legal cars, is about what you'd expect it to be all the usual suspects are included with a one or two exceptions, check it out.

Sorry I can't post a link it's not on their website.

xkss · September 2005

I don't think the Enzo will be a classic Ferrari or even a classic at all. I've seen a few in person and they are just ugly. The Enzo-derived Maserati MC12 looks far better and I've seen the race version of the MC12 at a recent American Le Mans Series race.

tsaupe1 · September 2005

I think it's too early to judge the Enzo on looks alone. Tastes change. However, as far as performance is concerned, it's a classic, IMHO. I was surprised to see that the Lusso didn't make the top ten, although it was "first alternate." I was parked next to one at a show the other day, actually between a Lusso and a 512 BB, and I couldn't get over how beautiful the Lusso was. the lines and proportions are just so right. Its weight keeps it from having the SWBs performance, but it's no slouch.

I still think the 275 GTB4 is Pininfarina's best ferrari though.

Anyone have an opinion on the FXX? What's the next step after the first 20 are sorted by their "test" drivers? I'm rather bummed that I wasn't asked to apply for ownership. Oh well, It probably is horribly impractical and gets lousy gas mileage!

tsaupe1 · September 2005

I've heard a lot of rumors, some from very reliable sources, saying that Ferrari is seriously thinking of re-introducing the Dino line with a Mid engine 6. While trying to avoid the tiresome "was the Dino a real Ferrari?" debate (drive one and then tell me it's a Fiat), how does everyone feel about an entry level Ferrari? What should an "entry level" Ferrari cost? Would the introduction of a Dino hurt the marque's image? Now that they've gotten rid of Maserati, do they need another line? Has anyone seen so much as an artist's conception?

andys120 · September 2005

I did see a drawing of the new "Dino" in a magazine (R&T?) it looked alright but certainly lacked the fluid beauty of the earlier Dinos. I personally have no problem with an "entry-level" Ferrari so long as it's done right. I hope it's a real sports car, as opposed to an ersatz big Ferrari.

I was surprised they left the glorious Lusso off the MT-Classic list as well. It seems to me the 250 Series 1 Cabrio got on the list mostly for it's looks and I don't think any other Ferrari trumps the 250 Lusso for looks. As for performance, well, there were several Lussos that were raced and there's plenty of ways to "hop up" the 3.0 V12.

tsaupe1 · September 2005

I've always considered the Dino one of the most beautiful automobiles ever made and I'm glad to hear that Ferrari (or Pininfarina) is not trying to duplicate it in any way. Every retro looking design I've seen just doesn't seem to work

I was unaware of Lussos being raced. Do you have any more info on that?

We lost use of the 328 for a few weeks this summer due to a variety of 17 year old car problems which all struck at the same time. Vacuum hoses, an O2 sensor and finally a water pump, which failed while they were warming up the car for the inspection sticker, meant that we were Ferrari less for two weeks of great weather. So we're hoping for one of those lovely, long, New England Autumns so that we can make up for it!

andys120 · September 2005

I'll have to rumage around in my Ferrari literature for info on racing 250 GT Lussos.

Have you seen the movie biography of Ferrari called (appropriately) Enzo Ferrari?
It's a halfway decent movie, but a little quick to steal plot devices from Citizen Kane.

tsaupe1 · September 2005

I've heard about it but haven't seen it yet. Where did you find a copy? Of course, both Kane (and his real life counterpart) and Ferrari were larger than life, so I guess I could forgive the theft. This is the one made originally for Italian TV or something, isn't it?

andys120 · September 2005

Apparently it was made for Italian TV, I rented it from Netflix

tsaupe1 · September 2005

Ferrari has just announced the new 430 Challenge car. Built strictly for competition it uses the same engine and output as the 430, but is considerably lighter. It also features carbon/ceramic brakes, a redesigned central exhaust system, new ratios in the final drive and 5th and 6th gear. No drivers aids like traction control, etc. Oh, and special to the car Pirelli slicks.

The challenge series used to be for (admittedly well-to-do) amateurs and owners. For perhaps 5-6K more you could get a competition Ferrari to play with on weekends. this car sounds a lot more like you need the car, the crew and bottomless pockets to run.

On another note, this is the 30th anniversary of the 308 GTB/S. My assistant at work was commenting, as he paged through my copy of Forza, how great looking the 308/328 cars are. Especially since they are "sooooo old, I mean, that's like 5 years before I was born!" I told him how some designs age better than others, that I had lusted after that shape since it was introduced, When I was his age. I felt very old. So I fired him!

tsaupe1 · September 2005

This month's Forza Magazine lists another top ten. Among the judges was Piero Ferrari. Although similar to MT's there are interesting differences including the 250 GTE. They credit the car for keeping Ferrari afloat in the early 60s. Huzzah! Strike a blow for the lowly 2+2s!

neal4218 · September 2005

I have been looking at 456's as my entry into the Ferrari world. What I like about that car is greater space compared to the 348 or 355 which I love the lines on. Does anyone have comments on the 456 as to longevity [some now have upwards of 20k miles], repair requirement records, performance, or other personal views? Also, those with comments on 348 and 355 I would appreciate hearing.
Thanks!

enzo4re · September 2005

Neal

I own a 456m and a 355B, the 2 could not be more different. Both awesome in their own right but made for different purposes.

355B- outright balls-to-the-wall drop dead gorgeous loud(gota have a Tubi exhaust) V8 380bhp rev happy sports car that will send tingles down your spine everytime you take it out

.. IMO the nicest and best sounding modern ferrari of them all. With the 360 and now 430 ferrari have gone in a different direction with cars having more electroinc aids

while becoming bigger and heavier like every other modern car nowadays

The 355 was the last incarnation of the old school cars starting with the Dino in the last 60's(progression being Dino, 308, 328, 348, 355). It is a classic.

456M- Different ball of wax completly. Was designed as a GT car for the family heading off to the proverbial ski house 5 hours away down the autobahn. Obviously much less in your face design wise and alot queiter both inside and out(again Tubi exhaust a must here IMO). Less rev happy than the 355 but much more torquier with a massive v12 440bhp up front grunt and in a straight line it will eat anything on the road including the 355.
The 2+2 nature of this car makes it the family ferrari if you will. I have a booster in the back seat and I love taking my kids with me to share the experience. The 456's are heavily depreciated now and they are a terrific buy for your ferrari $$. Understated, classy and elegant, Pinnin Farina himself is on record as saying the 456 is one of his favorite designs and that is saying something!

So it really depends what you are looking for....a weekend screamer for blasts in the backroads or more of a user friendly GT car that can carry more than 2 people.

Whichever you choose you wont be dissapointed. Just make sure you do your due diligence and have a through PPI performed before you even think about buying anything. One more thing....do not be overly concerned about finding low mileage cars..these cars get better the more they are driven so dont be afraid of higher mileage cars, generally these are the ones that have been serviced and maintained well by previous owner. Good luck.

neal4218 · September 2005

Thanks for this good information. I sensed the same differences. Would there be some unique service or maintenance issues with the 456? For example, some engine or cooling or transmission [I will only consider the gated manual box] that I need to be particularly aware of? Also, should one even consider a car that the service records are missing or unavailable for or one that never had any service performed at a licensed dealer? I have no experience with my local dealership {Ferrari of Washington], but dealers from other makes don't always have the most careful or skillful mechanics, so I am not sure what to expect with Ferrari on dealer servicing vs. local shop servicing. How skeptical should one be of a car that may have non-factory aftermarket parts installed? Someone earlier in this forum said, "there is Ferrari and then there is everything else".
What is a reliable way to get a PPI for a car that may be several hundred miles away?
By the way, is there something about the 456 that has caused it to have depreciated so heavily? And where would be some good places to start looking for one?
Again thanks.

enzo4re · September 2005

Thanks for this good information
-Your welcome.

Would there be some unique service or maintenance issues with the 456?
-Unique, no not by ferrari standards. A major belt service will need to be performed every 5 years or 30k miles. Should cost approx $5-6k at a dealer and a little less at a good independent. After that its up to you. Personally I get all fluids changed once a year which I feel is a good idea. I would budget for annual maintenance of between $1-2k and that should cover most eventualities.

For example, some engine or cooling or transmission [I will only consider the gated manual box] that I need to be particularly aware of?
-Yes, manual 6 speed is the way to go

, you will have to look for them as they can be harder to find than the auto which most 456's came with. The 456 engine and drivetrain is very robust, if you stick to the newer M models 1999-2003 you should be fine. One thing that all 456's have an issue with is poorly sealing front door windows, you will have to be aware of this and try and find a car that has had this issue resolved by PO. Its a very expensive fix ($8k) so let the PO pick up the tab on this one.

Also, should one even consider a car that the service records are missing or unavailable
-Nope, stay away. A very bad sign. Any well cared for care will have a good paper trail.

or one that never had any service performed at a licensed dealer?
-I wouldnt worry to much about a licensed dealer not doing it, there are many ex-dealer mechanics that went out on their own and are just as good if not better at servicing than the dealer. Just make sure that whoever did the work is known for dealing with ferraris.

I have no experience with my local dealership {Ferrari of Washington}
- I have heard good things about FOW so I would not worry about them.

so I am not sure what to expect with Ferrari on dealer servicing vs. local shop servicing
-FWIW, I use a local independent for routine stuff and the dealer in my area for the big service.

How skeptical should one be of a car that may have non-factory aftermarket parts installed?
-Well it depends, If there are after market parts under the hood, I would raise an eyebrow at that. If its some non-factory wheels or other easily fixed cosmetic that might be ok. Either way as a potential buyer I would make sure to ask that everything is returned to stock factory before I buy. If this causes the seller to balk walk away..end of story.

Someone earlier in this forum said, "there is Ferrari and then there is everything else".
-Very true

What is a reliable way to get a PPI for a car that may be several hundred miles away?
-visit the website ferrarichat.com, introduce yourself and ask for suggestions on a place for a PPI in that particular city. Its a great ferrari enthusiast website and you will get all the help you need there. Also use the search button and you will find alot of answers to your questions. We have all been where you are now and this website will really help you out.

By the way, is there something about the 456 that has caused it to have depreciated so heavily?
-Nope, its a 2+2 ferrari and thus in the ferrari pecking order less desirable than the 2 seater cars. Every 2+2 ferrari ever made has the same image/depreciation problem...the new 612 2+2 costing $250k+ will probably be selling for half that if not less in 3/4 years. Dont complain, because it allows the prudent buyer to pick up a great bargain for a relatively new car. As a guide typically ferraris tend to flaten out on the depreciation curve at about 60/65% off MSRP. After that you should see minimal depreciation. Although like any car these modern ferraris are not investments and dont try and convince your self otherwise. Its like the old saying if you have to ask you cant afford one....alot of truth there. Drive it often and sell it when you are ready to move on..it will be worth what's it worth then.

And where would be some good places to start looking for one?
-Start by asking this question on ferrarichat.com. Also I happen to know of a great 1999 456m that Ron Tonkin has for sale. Also go to www.ferrariusa.com and check out marketplace section.

Its a great car and most of the M models are pretty bullet proof. Just make sure you do your homework on any car considered.

habitat1 · September 2005

Since you appear are one of the most knowledgeable and articulate on Ferrari experts I've come across, perhpas you could help me with a question.

A brother of a friend of mine will be selling his 360 coupe in 4+/- months when his 430 arrives. I semi-seriously considered it, but was discouraged by several dealers and ex-Ferrari owners I talked to. I was told by that putting more than 5,000 miles per year on a Ferrari will become very expensive, both in terms of maintenance and depreciation. It's a 2001 360 with 11,000 miles currently on the odometer. Asking price is in the $135k range.

Instead, I ended up getting a new 2005 Porsche 911 S Cabriolet that I was encouraged to "drive it to your heart's content" by the dealer and other Porsche owners. In addition, it holds my daughters in the back seat, at least for now. It's still a third car for us, but I've managed 615 miles in the first week. The first service is due at 20,000 miles or 2 years and I suspect I'll hit the former before the latter. I am happy, as are my wife and girls.

However, now another friend of mine who just sent his last kid off to college is interested in the 360. He has homes in the Baltimore and Pittsburgh areas and would plan on driving the Ferrari back and forth (500+ miles roundtrip) at least once a month, weather permitting. How much have you driven your 355 and do you share the view that 10,000 miles per year in a Ferrari 360 is impractical and/or imprudent? Any other comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

enzo4re · September 2005

Since you appear are one of the most knowledgeable and articulate on Ferrari experts I've come across, perhpas you could help me with a question.
-Thanks for the compliment, but I am a long way from an expert on ferrari's.

A brother of a friend of mine will be selling his 360 coupe in 4+/- months when his 430 arrives. I semi-seriously considered it, but was discouraged by several dealers and ex-Ferrari owners I talked to. I was told by that putting more than 5,000 miles per year on a Ferrari will become very expensive
-not in maintenance it wont, this is not high mileage at all, these cars get better the more they are driven, like most mechanical appliances particularly internal combustion engines, problems due to atrophy and neglect will cause you many more problems than regular usage. Some of the best 355 and 360's out there are the ones with 20-30k miles on them, that have been enthusiast owned and well cared for. I bought my 355 with 20k miles on the clock and have had ZERO problems with it.

both in terms of maintenance and depreciation. It's a 2001 360 with 11,000 miles currently on the odometer. Asking price is in the $135k range.
-now thats a different matter. The price sounds right for the year and miles. Depreciation is just now starting to hit the 360's with the intro of the 430. There are a ton of 360's on the market right now and this will drive down the price steadily, not overnight but judging by the 355 depreciation cycle a 1999 360 with 20k(in 2009) miles will probably be worth around 75/80k in 2009. IMO After 10 years the cycle slows down to minimal depreciation. If depreciation is a worry or a factor then you might want to look at an older car like an early 355 that has leveled off.

Instead, I ended up getting a new 2005 Porsche 911 S Cabriolet that I was encouraged to "drive it to your heart's content" by the dealer and other Porsche owners.
-Well if the 996 porsche is anything to go by be prepared for a big hit when it comes time to sell it. Far too many porsches out there which kills the resale. And despite what Porsche AG tell us there IS a substitute...

I have owned a Porsche and they are a great car but they have no soul anymore IMO. that went away after the 993 air cool cars went away.

In addition, it holds my daughters in the back seat, at least for now. It's still a third car for us, but I've managed 615 miles in the first week. The first service is due at 20,000 miles or 2 years and I suspect I'll hit the former before the latter. I am happy, as are my wife and girls.
-They are great cars for this type of daily driving, fast, very reliable, and dont draw too much attention..good and bad depending on mood.

However, now another friend of mine who just sent his last kid off to college is interested in the 360. He has homes in the Baltimore and Pittsburgh areas and would plan on driving the Ferrari back and forth (500+ miles roundtrip) at least once a month, weather permitting.
- Once a month!!! are you kidding me, thats nothing. The 360 is more than capable of putting higher mileage on it. Despite what people think these cars dont melt in the rain or fall apart after 10k miles...Ferrari has made great strides starting with the 355 in making their cars ALOT more reliable and user friendly than the bad old days in the 70's and 80's where all these horror stories about ferrari''s came from.

How much have you driven your 355
-As my ferrari's are 3rd and 4th cars, I dont get to drive them as much as I would like, also with 2 toddlers at home

time is at a premium! but I still manged to put 2000k miles on the 355 last year. Strictly weekend use. But I have no doubt the car would be fine with whatever mileage I threw at it.

and do you share the view that 10,000 miles per year in a Ferrari 360 is impractical and/or imprudent?
-Well if you live where there is a real winter like I do, 10k miles per year is quite hard to do. For me my cars are more weekend toys than daily transportation. Sure the 355/360 are capable of being used daily but for me there is something special about looking forward to the weekends and the anticipation of firing up this magical vehicles. I still get tingles and butterflies when I start them up and hear that beautiful engine roar to life. This is something I never want to loose and I fear using them as daily drivers might diminish the enjoyment if you know what I mean. But thats just me, I know of people that use them alot more regularly but personally the stare's and unwanted attention can get old pretty quickly. I would not want to deal with that on a daily basis. So I guess I am saying a ferrari probably is impracticle for daily driver duties but there is no better weekend or occasional use toy you can reward yourself with.

Any other comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
-Hope this helps.

neal4218 · September 2005

Again, "Enzo", many thanks. I went to the Ron Tonkin website, and tried putting 456M in a search but it came up nil. I then put in 456GT and a very nice blue 1999 one came up for $134,900! Just to clarify, this probably in fact has to be an "M' because I believe all 456's from 1999 on were "modificata", would you agree? In any event, that seems an excessive price, don't you think -- at least by the expected depreciation curve? Also, Tonkin is in Oregon and I am in DC. What do you think of having it trucked across the country from the standpoint of : 1) possible damage; 2) cost; 3) practicality of doing this vs. finding one on the East coast? Any thoughts?

habitat1 · September 2005

-Hope this helps.

Sure did, and it's good hearing from someone with first hand experience like yours. Congrats on the toddlers, as well.

My kids were probably the biggest factor in my decision to go for the 911 Cab. And, although I've heard the "no soul" pitch from others that were partial to the pre-996 air cooled 911's, I am of a different opinion/preference. I had a fair amount of time behind the wheel of a 1987 930 Turbo and, while it was a lot of fun back then, it was a lot of work to drive. If I wanted to limit my use to 2,000+/- miles a year on the weekends, it - or better yet - a used 328, 355 or 360 - would probably be a better choice than paying full price for a new 997. But I would not bet against my putting 10,000 to 15,000 miles a year on the 997. And if my girls have anything to say about it, they will be in the back seat for more than 2000 miles a year!

Again, thanks for your insights and congratulations on two great cars and two greater joys than any car.

enzo4re · September 2005

Just to clarify, this probably in fact has to be an "M' because I believe all 456's from 1999 on were "modificata", would you agree?
Yes, Its an M car.

any event, that seems an excessive price, don't you think -- at least by the expected depreciation curve?
Yes, thats a carzy price for a 99 and why it has been for sale for a long time..I am not sure what they are smoking but dealers are not known for their rational pricing of used ferraris! , although it looks perfect with very low miles. Its maybe $100k car but not a penny more IMO. $135k should buy you a perfect 2001/2002 car as a reference. This is one of the reasons why I like to buy my cars from other enthusiasts because some dealer's will gouge you sensless if you dont know what you are doing. The other main reason is I like to know FULL history of the car and whom I am buying it from. Most times a dealer will not accommodate these type of requests.

Tonkin is in Oregon and I am in DC. What do you think of having it trucked across the country from the standpoint of : 1) possible damage; 2) cost; 3) practicality of doing this vs. finding one on the East coast? Any thoughts?

My 355 came from the mid west and my 456 from CA and I am in the NY area. Its not a big deal. There are transportaion companies that specialize in shipping high end cars www.intercitylines.com will take care of any car you need transported. But the best way is to pick the car up yourself and drive it home wherever it is. You will have yourself one hell of a roadtrip!

Because there are so few of these cars, the chances of you finding one and one that you WANT close to you is slim, you have to spread your search to cover the entire US. BTW Cauley Ferarri have a nice blue 2001 456m on their website.

tsaupe1 · September 2005

That price of over 130 seems way out of line. the only justification seems to be the low miles, but that becomes a catch 22. Recently a 328 sold around here for well into 70K because it only had 1200 original miles. Of course, it immediately lost that distinction while being driven home! Don't be afraid of higher mileage cars with EXCELLENT service records.

Habitat 1, where in the Northeast are you? I might be able to help find a car through one of the Ferrari Club of America events. BTW, I strongly recommend joining the FCA, along with Fchat, they are a must for owners, and potential owners. There is a wealth of information available in those two sources.

As to putting miles on, I put around 7K per year during our short driving season and both my mechanic and I think the car benefits from it. No more maintenance than you would expect from a 17 year old car.

andys120 · October 2005

were probably a figment of my imagination, perhaps because of the 330LMB which was raced in GT classes and combined the nose of the GTO with the disinctive roofline of the 260 Lusso.

Cool looking, huh :shades:

tsaupe1 · October 2005

Andy,

Imagination is a wonderful thing and I'm willing to bet that somewhere a few Lussos saw track action. I've never seen the 330 from that angle, at least I don't remember doing so, and the nose looks bigger and heavier than the tail section. Interesting angle. I think I saw that car at the Monterey Historics a while back. Is it a transition between the GTO and the 250LM? I'm finding too many gaps in my Ferrari history. I guess it's time to sit down and read all those back issues of Cavallino that are piling up!

T

andys120 · October 2005

I checked the "Bible" AKA The Complete Ferrari by Geoffrey Eaton and it only says that the four 330 LMB models were specifically designed to compete for the
Championat des Marques which was for GT cars in '62 and '63.
They are sometimes referred to as 330GTs, sure to be confused with
a few 4-liter GTOs (330GTO). :confuse: :sick:

spiritinthesky · October 2005

Thought I'd pass along that, although I just spent a wonderful 300+ mile four day weekend with a 2001 Ferrari 360, I've decided to pass in favor of getting a 2006 911 S.

There is no doubt that the Ferrari is a more unique, attention getting car. And if I would be content driving something 1,000 to 2,000 miles a year on the weekends, I'd probably be making a different decison. Although, I might also be inclined to go for a new 430 if I went the Ferrari route. Not to say that the 360 isn't quick and nimble enough, but it fell slightly short of the 911 S - at least in my hands. The 430 appears to be a better match of exotic styling with true supercar performance. Which coincides with why my orthopedic surgeon is selling his 360 to make room for a 430. Live by that sword, die by it, as they say.

My decision has come down to the fact that I would like a high quality, low maintenance, semi-daily driver. I have an M5 that I put 16,000+ miles a year on and, if a 911 were in my garage, I'd probably split that mileage down the middle, or even slightly in favor of the 911. While in theory the 360 may be able to handle that kind of use, it's neither very practical, nor, IMO, the best use of a Ferrari. In my younger days, my first serious sports car was an original BMW M1. It was a damn resiliant car for its day and type, but trying to drive it too much took a toll on both the car and me.

With all that said, I can appreciate and respect that owning and driving a Ferrari is a unique experience unmatched by Porsche and BMW. An old college friend has a pristine 328 that he bought new. And even though its performance is now exceeded by his daughter's $30k Honda S2000, he's the one that still causes traffic to stop whenever and wherever he takes it out for that occasional weekend drive.

andys120 · October 2005

I found this shot at barchetta.cc of a Lusso in racing livery, apparently taken at a vintage racing event at LeMans>>

Sure makes a pretty race car!

andys120 · October 2005

according to sources.

I'm not sure what to think of this. :confuse:

tsaupe1 · October 2005

Ferrari experimented with four wheel, or all wheel drive back in the late seventies or early eighties. Can't remember which but I remember seeing the chassis at the Galleria in Maranello. If memory serves me it carried a 400 designation. A lot of people are going the all wheel drive route for better handling and road manners, I'm not really surprised. Of course, they may have patented the system, but that doesn't mean they'll use it.
By the Way Andys120, I love the pic of the racing Lusso. that car just looks great in any livery, color or from any angle. Bellissima!

dunhillmd · December 2005

i bought my enzo for $700,000 and it was worth it i tell ya wat

xkss · December 2005

They will have a new Ferrari F430 GTC next year, but will it be reliable?

billymay · December 2005

Yes I'm still alive, just haven't posted in a while. '87 328GTS (black metallic/tan) is bought, from Sport Auto in NC, and having its 30K spa treatment right now. PPI at Ferrari of Atlanta showed great compression/leakdown results, and the service history looks good. I'm hoping to have it out here in San Diego the first week in January.

I did end up focusing on the 328 over the 348 or 355, although I could have stretched into the 355. This left me a decent cash cushion (I hope) for any initial stuff that needs sorting out.

Anyone reading this who is wavering between a Porsche and a Ferrari needs to actually drive both. They exist in two different universes.

andys120 · December 2005

The "1962 Ferrari Spider" featured in this ad from HMN appears to be a much sought after 250 Spider California yet the words "Spider California" are not mentioned nor is the S/N, an essential reference for the serious collector of classic Ferraris. In fact the information in the ad is quite sketchy and the price at $69k is suspiciously low.

I'm betting it's a clone or maybe worse a Corvette based replicar. :mad:

tsaupe1 · January 2006

on the 328. I hope you enjoy yours as much as I enjoy mine. By the way, only 45 were built in Nero Metallico, you and I now account for two. Andys120, my guess is a clone probably on a Corvette base. The body looks suspiciously bulbous to me and that price wouldn't put a down payment on a real California Spyder. Nearly any 250 series spider is going to go for at least twice that. New Year's wishes to everyone.

billymay · January 2006

Thanks tsaupe. How did you get the production figures for that paint code? I have Keith Bluemel's Original Ferrari V-8 book -- gives total production, but it doesn't break it down by color, or country for that matter.

tsaupe1 · January 2006

Billymay, Those number come from the factory. I checked with them through the owner's site. It's well worth registering if you haven't already. Nero Metallico is an unusual paint for Ferrari across the board. When you add in all the other differences between cars, you might find you're more unique than you think. For instance, of the 328s in that colour, I've found out that mine is the only one with the full Schedoni interior. I've found one other (in Japan) which has the same interior colour (wine) but has the black dash top and arm rests.

As for websites, I also highly recommend joining Ferrari Chat, if you haven't already. Great info and a nice group of people. Not unlike this forum! Is the 30K done yet? I'm curious to hear your impressions when you've had the car on the road for a bit. I've had the good fortune to own a few Ferraris and until I get my next, I love this one the most!

Best of luck and happy motoring!

Tom

rorr · February 2006

"i bought my enzo for $700,000 and it was worth it i tell ya wat"

Gee, this wasn't you, was it?

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-022206ferrari_lat,0,1938469.story?coll=la-s- tory-footer

fghton · April 2006

...Listen to "enzo4re"...This guy knows what he's talking about. After owning two Ferraris (a Mon dial and then a 355 which I should have never sold!), I bought a 2002 911 Turbo X-50 with 2100 miles in absolutely mint factory type condition. The first owner who had it for 2100 miles paid 154k for it. I bought it a year later for 116k...I put only 4000 miles on the car and just sold it today for 85k.
The car was perfect. Now if you think I got a bad deal, think again. This was the best offer by far after listing it on E-Bay and taking it to four local Porsche dealers, none of which who would even take it on consignment! E-Bay had 295 Porsche's listed for sale. The after market has virtually evaporated for the higher end Porsches. And when the new 07's come out with 480HP the 04-06's will go in the toilet just like the 2000-2003 Turbo X50's did when the new Turbo Carrera S came out.

As for driving it everyday. Yah...you can do that but maintenance ain't cheap at the Porsche dealer either, and the darn car, with the sluggish "tiptronic" simply is no fun to drive. And you virtually can't tell a 165k Turbo Porsche from a 65k Carrera on the outside so why bother?

What did I do with my money from the Porsche sale?
Just bought a 2003 360 Modena coupe with a six speed manual shift and 5400 miles. For the first time in over two years driving is now fun again...Nothing sounds...looks... nor drives like a Ferrari.
I'm like a kid in a candy store!

habitat1 · April 2006

I'm glad to hear that you're happy again, but I think we are on opposite ends of the sports car spectrum when it comes to use, enjoyment and value.

I've put 6,200 miles on my 911S Cab in the past 7 months. I expect that rate to increase now that spring is here. You put 4,000 miles on the 2002 911 Turbo in 3+ years. Quick math indicates about 100 miles a month for you, 1,000 miles a month for me. Hell, my daughters have probably logged 300+ miles a month in the rear seats. Your 4 year/48,000 mile warranty expired with 42,000 miles UNUSED. I'm contemplating extending mine to a 7/75 or 7/100.

There is no doubt that a Ferrari is a more unique car and, if driven very lightly, a better garage queen investment than the 911. But, according to the Ferrari dealer I spoke with, he was unaware of any 360's that had reached 35k miles on their odometer, in the country. He actually suggested getting a 911 if I intended to drive 10,000 to 12,000+ miles a year.

Frankly, I'm not sure what brand of dope the previous owner was smoking when he paid $154k for a 2002 911TT/X50. (Nor what kind of dope anyone would smoke to buy a 911TT with a tiptronic). I could buy a loaded 2007 6-speed 997 Turbo today for about $140k (base MSRP of around $125k).

On the other hand, if you managed to take $85k and turn that into a 2003 360 Modena 6-speed, you got one hell of a deal. And for someone who drives about 1/2 of the miles that my wife runs on a monthly basis, I think you made a great choice. But if I turned in our "family sports car" for a two seater garage queen, I'd be facing the wrath of three women who could make my life miserable.

billymay · May 2006

Having gone from a 911 (993) to a Ferrari (328), I finally understand why other Ferrari owners thought I was clueless to make comparisons. My Porsche was a really nice car, and no doubt it's a better everyday driver than the Ferrari. But the sound, the looks and feel of driving the 328 really make the 911 irrelevant. I've also had people just walk up to me at the gas station to admire the car and ask questions.

I don't think Ferrari owners do all this number crunching (15,000 miles a year, depreciation = $n, etc.) It's a Ferrari and you know it's irrational to start, so discussions with Porsche people (my brother is one) tend to be two guys talking past each other. Honestly, the last owner put a $2500 exhaust on my car, and whether he got another 2bhp out of it I don't know. But it sounds amazing so who cares.

IMHO, someone would have to smoking something to pay six figures for any flavor 911, when there are ROWS of them on used car lots and unless you read a lot of car mags they all look the same.

Don't get me wrong, I like Porsches and I might pick up a Cayman as a daily driver at some point, but there's a night-and-day type of difference between my Ferrari and my ex-Porsche. (And yes, the Porsche is a better-engineered car, hands down.)

Tsaupe: I'm loving the car - have now had it since January. 30K major w/water pump rebuild was done at Sport Auto in NC; having the front bumper resprayed to clean up some stone chips. Apart from a minor problem with a window switch the car's been excellent thus far. It does like to be properly warmed up, and then it really comes to life (gearbox especially). Was worried the Tubi might be too loud, but I like it. I had doubts about not getting a red car, but the nero met/tan actually looks better, IMO.

habitat1 · May 2006

I appreciate what you are saying regarding the uniqueness of the Ferrari compared to the Porsche 911. But your statements....

But the sound, the looks and feel of driving the 328 really make the 911 irrelevant.

IMHO, someone would have to smoking something to pay six figures for any flavor 911, when there are ROWS of them on used car lots and unless you read a lot of car mags they all look the same.

....suggest that you are more concerned about appearances than reality. The old 328 couldn't match the performance of my former (limited production, 9,000 rpm redline) $32k Honda S2000, let alone any model 997 or the Cayman you are considering for a daily driver. And, for less than $100k, the 911S Cab gives you comparable or better performance than a $175k Ferrari 360 Spider in a car that you can drive 30k miles in 2 years, not 20 years.

The fact is, that your statements are relevant to you, and mine to me. And BOTH the Ferrari 328 and Porsche 911 are to be commended for being the pinnacle of their respective segments within the sports car world. So, be assured that, other than as a friendly rebuke to your post, I will never show disrespect for Ferrari. They do what they do better than any other manufacturer, period. By the same token, I would hope that you can see why the 911S isn't "irrelevant" to me and last time I checked, I wasn't smoking anything.

P.S. I have the $2,400 Porsche sport exhaust on my 911S and, hate as I might to admit it, it sounds great too, with 0 increase in the official horsepower rating

billymay · May 2006

Hey, this board is too quiet to brush off any posts...

You're right, my experience with these cars is much more subjective and far less stopwatch/g-meter focused.

I wouldn't compare a 308/328 to any 2006 model year sports cars on the track. I think my point, clumsily made, was that in the sports-car-experience-per-dollar ratio (which includes things like speed, visual and aural impact, and financial considerations like depreciation) is that a new 911 is a "bad deal" compared to some of Porsche and Ferrari's past offerings.

Obviously I still appreciate Porsches. The value equation of the new models eludes me, though.

spiritinthesky · May 2006

I wouldn't compare a 308/328 to any 2006 model year sports cars on the track. I think my point, clumsily made, was that in the sports-car-experience-per-dollar ratio (which includes things like speed, visual and aural impact, and financial considerations like depreciation) is that a new 911 is a "bad deal" compared to some of Porsche and Ferrari's past offerings.

O.K., I'll bite on that one.

I went through a tough decision to trun down a very good deal on a friends Ferrari 360 and have elected to order a new 911 S coupe instead.

What's the "bad deal" when the 911 S is more than capable of being driven daily at 15,000 miles per year and doesn't require an oil change until 20k miles? The 360's 30k major service would run $7,500 at the dealership. Worse yet, any relatively significant repair could take the car out of commission for 4-5+ weeks. The original owner did drive his 360 on a regular basis, but it depreciated substantially as a result. The dealer deducted $40,000 from the trade in value because it had 30k miles instead of the "expected" 5-8k. The owner offered it to me for less still, just to spite the dealer. They since made up and he's happy with his new 430.

The Ferrari 328 is a beautiful classic that looks great standing still. But to compare it to a new 997 and somehow conclude that the 997 is a "bad deal" suggests that you are willing to spend a lot of time admiring your 328 rather than driving it.

There really should be no comparison of ANY classic exotic to a current model 997. They serve significanly different purposes. A nearly 20 year old 328 is no more of a good daily driver than a 997 is an impressive garage queen. But reverse those roles, and both should serve their purpose very well. I'd take a 328 over a 911 for 1,500 miles of Sunday driving.

P.S. I owned one of the 450 original BMW M1's. Wish I still had it. But I wouldn't be driving it a fraction of the miles I'll put on the 911, if at all.

habitat1 · May 2006

I'd take a 328 over a 911 for 1,500 miles of Sunday driving.

In the spirit of compromise, I would agree. The old 911's don't do much for me visually. And the 328 can still turn heads on a dark night.

billymay · May 2006

True enough. I have other vehicles to drive daily, and in that light a Ferrari fits my needs perfectly. I'm OK trading a lot of practicality for driving something rare, because as a weekend car it needn't go 15K miles annually, and if it's in the shop a few days that's OK. (4-5 weeks?! The 30K major service on mine only took 1 week and that's for a 19-year old car...)

I thought, however, that one of the earlier posts missed the point with all the number crunching regarding Porsches and Ferraris. It reminded me of the "Evo, M3 or 355?" posts I see on other sites, which must leave 355 owners scratching their heads.

I would say that Porsche buyers often make these sensible calculations about downtime, oil change intervals and such, while Ferrari buyers don't. My brother sold his 911 and is hesitating on an Aston or another exotic after seeing the shop receipts. I saw stacks of Ferrari shop receipts before I owned one, said "ouch" and then bought anyway. Likely nearly every 360 owner knew what it cost to maintain the car before they signed on.

There's more than a bit of "heart over mind" involved here (seeing as this is the Ferrari Lovefest topic...) To stretch the analogy more than it might deserve, it's a bit like saying the Mona Lisa is far more expensive than quality wallpaper.

In some sense, we feel we got a "good deal" due to the intangibles.

At any rate congrats on your new 997. They are superb cars, period. If you ever need a carsitter, my references are top notch. Enjoy it.

tsaupe1 · June 2006

Billymay, glad to hear you're enjoying the car. Without getting into the the Porsche/Ferrari thing to heavily I'll just put in my 2 cents by saying they are both great marques with very different appeal. I can't think of any two marques that are more polar opposites in approach to the same problem. Obviously, for me, I love Ferraris and appreciate Porsches and respect the reverse opinion.

Spiritinthesky, I know 328s that are pretty much daily drivers. Before my commute became an hour each way, mine was a daily car in good weather. When it isn't pouring rain, I still take it to work a couple of times a week and generally at least have it out for a few miles daily. There are a number of Ferrari models I wouldn't drive as much, but 328s are solid, drivable cars.

Anyway, congrats to both of you. Enjoy your cars!

zak1964 · July 2006

I am a Porsche enthusiast who is looking to make the jump to Ferrari. I am looking for advice on the 360 Coupe - what to look for in buying a pre-owned 360, what I should expect to pay (2001 - 2003 model year), as well as how best to source a pre-owned 360 (delaer or private). I have been to my local Ferrari dealer on a few occassions and found them to be arrogant and generally unhelpful.

Also, any advice anyone can provide on the 430 Coupe would also be helpful, especially what I should expect to pay for a 2005/2006 version, and how best to locate one.

I am new to the Ferrari message board and appreciate any advice that you may have.

spiritinthesky · August 2006

Earlier this year, I came very clsoe to purchasing a Ferrari 360 coupe from a friend who has since received his new 430.

Frankly, I'm glad I didn't. The 360 is a very nice car, without a doubt. However, the 430 is a enormous jump in performance for a nominal increase in price. But a bigger issue than performance is daily driveability - and that's an issue for me with both models, as my prior posts indicate. Part of the reason I could have gotten the 360 at a relatively good price was that the dealership insulted my friend with a low-ball trade offer because his 360 was considered a "high mileage" car. At a whopping 28,000 miles in nearly 4 years.

If you are seriously interested in a 430, I would suggest getting on a dealer list for a new one. Another business associate paid MSRP ($175k +/-) for a 430 Coupe, Yellow/Black 6-speed manual. He was originally told it would take 2 years, he had the car less than 1 year after placing a deposit. He could sell it for a $30,000 to $50,000 premium today (the dealer currently has a 430 F1 Spider with 800 miles for $60,000 over MSRP, but it is "used" so they can freely charge whatever the market will bear). You should be able to find a reputable dealer that will stick to MSRP pricing for a new car ordered to your specs. I'm not sure what current wait times are. I had been talking to Ferrari of Washington (DC) some time back. The 6-speed had a shorter wait than an F1 and a Coupe had a shorter wait than a Spider.

Me, I decided to go with Porsche and am expecting delivery of my 2007 911 Turbo (switched from 911 S) in October/November. I epect at this time next year it will be turning 10,000 miles on the odometer.

Good luck.

chile96 · November 2006

"Anyone reading this who is wavering between a Porsche and a Ferrari needs to actually drive both. They exist in two different universes."

I completely agree and is THE reason why I have both :shades:

andys120 · November 2006

link

Ferrari-the Ultimate classic (Ferrari Lovefest Topic)

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