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BMW has done much better simply because the press, as you said, still drools over what is still simply the better overall product in nearly every regard. I too would take a 330 over a TL (based on experience with both) and I suspect that I'd choose it over a G35 too. BUT - the margin of difference between them is not nearly as great as it was six or seven years ago, and I am sure even you have noticed that. There's a reason the TL-S dethroned the 330 here on edmunds, and now the G35 dethrones the 330 elsewhere. Is it because of price? Oh, definitely. But, take a look at the scores and you'll notice that price isn't enough to overcome huge deficiencies in other areas; the Mazda Millenia costs the same or less than a TL or a G35 but you're not seeing it upset a BMW, are you? Of course not. Why? Because even outside of price, the Acura and Infiniti are in shooting distance of the gold standard, and price is just the little nudge that's pushing them ahead.
In short, the gap is closing considerably, and it does look like the two less-successful luxury nameplates (Acura and Infiniti) are making a serious run at BMW. And given that Honda and Nissan are pretty sporting companies, that should bode well for those of us who can't afford the BMW, as well as for the BMW loyalists who (hopefully) will see BMW crank up the heat in response and produce even more attractive offerings in response.
As for Mercedes, they just don't make my heart beat anymore. Went to that Novi dealership and spent about 90 minutes there while she was test driving the ML and talking options with the salesguy. The CL coupe was the only car that impressed me. I did test drive a lightly used SLK320 they had there while I was waiting. The top was nice but the interior rattled, some of the switches were loose, the engine didn't have $51,000 of oomph, some of the rubber molding on the lower side skirts seemed to be peeling of, and while the chassis seemed like it'd last forever, I wasn't sure if any of the things bolted or glued to it would last more than five years. Afterwards I remarked to the salesguy that it had a much sharper and more precise steering feeling than I had expected (feeling bad that I hadn't said anything complimentary thus far) and he replied, "yes, that S2000 is a nice little Honda but it's just not a Mercedes" to which all I could think was, "thank goodness for that."
At the behest of posters here like shifty and merc1 I keep looking for some charm in MB and I keep finding myself wanting when it comes to any of their sub-$60k vehicles. They're not as well built, they're not as luxurious, not as sporty, not as fun to drive, not as affordable to own... and unless you're paying $60k they're not particularly more advanced than the competition either. The only things they seem to have going for them are nice styling, nice paint jobs, doors that close with a nice thud, and the same three-pointed star that a CL500 or a SL500 gets. All that being said, would anywhere here choose a C-class sedan over an Infiniti G35? I am having a hard time coming up with reasons why they would.
Of course, Benz's North American HQ is right next door in Auburn Hills. That explains Audi's new dealership here, too... VW-Audi keeps growing here in America, right?
Benz has a 'Thing' I don't get. Hondas and Bimmers are definitely sport, and combining the two yields something close to Acura, so I'll take that if BMW goes crazy with strange styling and strange ergonmics and I-Drive in all their models. Nissan's comeback as a sporty maker is very interesting, and they are putting serious power into Infiniti for (arguably) the first time. I really like what Nissan is doing, and I'm definitely keeping an eye on them.
Across the street from Ann Arbor Acura/Nissan/Mitsubishi/Hyundai is AutoStrasse Benz/BMW. BMW is always looking a little understocked to me, but that's the same like Howard Cooper on State Street (Honda/Volkswagen/Audi/Porsche). BMW does a lot of sales here. Benz, behind the BMW dealership (AutoStrasse is one German megaluxdealer, eh?), is always overstocked. Hard to maneuver my car through there... almost as bad as the perpetually overstocked Saturn dealer next door.
On the other side, there's a Lexus dealer. Lots of Certified used models for sale, but the new inventory looks low, like BMW. I see plenty of Bimmers and Lexi around town, and Acuras and Audis, which make me plenty excited to see. Benz has a ton of cars on the lot and fewer on the road, which means they are trying to become mass-market and people aren't buying that business plan.
Sphinx, give up. The three-pointed star isn't worth diddlysquat if I can walk over from Chevrolet or Cadillac dealer on Main Street in Rochester or walk over from the Saturn dealer here and haggle for one. (I would haggle - they always look overstocked to me.) Benz's reliability goes down as they try to take on Lexus and BMW... and Acura, Infiniti, and Audi all have compelling product.
Benz's styling was great a decade ago. The current model lineup just looks cheap to me in a way that a Benz shouldn't. The new styling is nice, but it's not Benz-like, i.e. extravagant. It screams "mass-market me!"
Guys, I know I'm strange, but I'd rather have a deluxe Honda than a cheapened Benz. The C230 coupe is moving down into my price range... that's not good. Plus, the RSX so soundly beats it in value, it's not funny.
The Benz I like is a model I think Benz should focus on the most... the S-class. The S-class so beats the Lexus LS (oversized yawnmobile), and BMW's new Bangleized 7-Series is a nightmare. Good thing I'm not in the market anytime soon (or ever, no matter what the financial situation is) for a big lux sedan. The 7-Series, the Lexus LS, the Infiniti Q45... ugh. Are these models 'competing' with each other?
G35 coupe at least matches BMW 3-Series now in terms of looks and feature list. If the 3-Series gets Bangleized, then the G35 will trounce the 3-Series.
This is particularly impressive given that a few years ago, following the death of the 300ZX, no one in the U.S. would have put the words "Nissan" and "performance" together in the same sentence. Sure, the Silvia and the Skyline GT-R are great cars, but very few people in the U.S. have even seen one...
Now, though, I can see Nissan developing a reputation as a performance-oriented brand, and this may only take years rather than decades.
On a slightly more somber note, knowing that we're at the very beginning of a horsepower war has me uncertain about what the right decisions and the right cars are now. I think we're about to see the "sporty" car make a jump from 200hp to 300hp and in the process soundly demolish today's "sports" cars. Acura opened the door with the Type S's and now Infiniti (and the Altima) have trumped them with more displacement and torque. You know BMW won't take kindly to two manual transmission sport sedan/coupes outrunning their own non-Motorsports best, so they'll respond accordingly. A 240hp Accord will leave Ford and Toyota trying to transplant tuned truck/SUV 6-bangers into their sedans to match or beat the Altima/Accord... which means a 260hp IS300 18 to 24 months from now, if not sooner. By then we'll have an all new Mustang GT with bigger back seats and hp/torque numbers that exceed the now-one-year-old G35 coupe, which will have Acura looking long and hard at bumping the displacement of their 3.2L to 3.5L to push into the 280hp range. Then, one of the domestics throws a small displacement V8 into a coupe, driving someone to throw their hands up in the air and sell a loaded and well-crafted 300hp entry level luxury coupe/sedan for $31k.
The only time I can recall a competitor laying down and playing dead was when the Japanese attacked the British motorcycle industry. The Brits did nothing to combat it, offering no new models, no new marketing, no new nuttin'.
And still it took the Japanese about 5 years to bury them.
I don't think Benz and BMW are going to lay down for any Japanese competitor, do any of you?. They haven't in the past and I don't see them operating from any weakness today. I think they are, if anything, even more formidable an opponent for the Japanese than they were ten years ago. The Germans usually beat the Japanese to the punch in most technology that really takes hold, time and time again. Okay, maybe not THIS version of I-Drive, but SOME version, you wait! LOL
And this is GOOD. Such fierce competition gives the consumer more and more. The main reason I see for the German's continued success in the foreseeable future is that the Japanese cannot yet reproduce the total driving experience of a German car and cannot come up with the striking styling that defines the European car (including Jaguar) right now.
But when the Japanese do duplicate the experience, or come up with something even more interesting, things will change, I can't argue with that.
Also, if I may say, if you are under 30 you just aren't going to "get" what a Benz is all about, and I fully understand that since I don't "get" certain cars either. A Benz is a mature person's car, let's just get that out on the table, for better or worse, they are for the "silver set". I wouldn't expect a young person to like them very much. I'm not all that fond of them myself compared to others I'd rather own.
I had a chance to test drive a 300HP CL-class at Comdex a couple years ago. Mercedes set up a test track next to the Vegas convention center and allowed all of the attendees to test drive any of their vehicles -- very cool idea.
The CL was a very nice car, fast, smooth, precise steering, unflappable handling. And yet, in my opinion, my 200HP 5-speed Prelude is a lot more fun to drive. Despite the performance of the CL, you feel much more connected to the car and the road in the Prelude.
Maybe if I were 50, I would prefer the comfort and luxury of the Mercedes. But maybe not...
Certainly not. However, Mercedes, BMW and Audi are not 15 years ahead of the competition either. At most a year or two ahead in some key areas, and now a year or two behind in some other key areas. I think what we're starting to see in Infiniti is the Acura Legend and the Lexus LS sedan - the cars that didn't need to explain themselves to their German competition. That Infiniti is going straight for Acura's throat (if they were going for BMW's, the G35 would cost $40k) suggests that the market has now matured beyond the who-can-compete-with-the-Germans stage it's been at for at least a decade or two, if not longer. I do agree that this is a good thing in the end, for us drivers. I know I for one would have jumped at a somewhat sharper and faster 330Ci, but it didn't quite have what I was looking for. However if the G35 coupe or the CL Type S inspires BMW to up the horsepower, tighten the steering a bit and add a couple of amenities while holding the line on price, the new sexy Acuras and Infinitis may indirectly result in my becoming a future BMW owner. Here's hoping NOBODY lays down and dies. (Other than Jaguar of course.)
"But when the Japanese do duplicate the experience, or come up with something even more interesting, things will change, I can't argue with that."
Well, I believe they have gone beyond duplicating the German experience, for what it's worth. I haven't driven anything German that gives me the thrill of a S2000... maybe a Porsche GT2, which I'll never drive. The NSX by all accounts does not need to explain itself to any German car. I can't say I've heard particularly bad remarks about the Supra, other than that it was expensive and had the wrong badge on it. We'll see what the 350Z is like, but I'm guessing that it and the RX-8 will be like nothing we currently have on the road today - from Europe or elsewhere.
"Also, if I may say, if you are under 30 you just aren't going to "get" what a Benz is all about, and I fully understand that since I don't "get" certain cars either."
I guess you may be right. Somehow Acuras and BMWs speak to me more clearly, and when I want softer rides and beautiful seats and sound, Lexus makes me drool. Mercedes leaves the same taste in my mouth when I see a Cadillac on the road.
For the pictures go to the "G35 Coupe" album on my Yahoo! Photos page, http://photos.yahoo.com/shipo. To view the pictures in full size, you need to first click on the "Thumbnail" shot, which will then be expanded to a "Screen Size" shot, and then again to expand to the "Full Size" picture.
Best Regards,
Shipo
On another note, I know we all love these horsepower wars, but Nissan needs to put more money into their interiors. I'm speaking of the Altima and G35. They have cheap looking interiors, which is inexcusable for the G35, which comes from a luxury brand.
None of the Mercedes imported to the U.S. have ever appealed to me.
I drive a Manual Lincoln LS and my lease is up just around the time the Manual G35 will be out.
In 2000, the Manual LS was the only 4 door RWD Manual sedan available besides the BMW. Now look at the competition.
The BMW and Lincoln both suffer from the lack of a Limited Slip Differential. Hopefully, it will be available at least as an aftermarket install for the G. Rumors are that the G Coupe will have factory installed LSD. That same unit should fit the Z and G sedan as well.
Lincoln is discontinuing the Manual LS, while Jaguar is still offering this drivetrain. Go figure.
Manual penetration in the U.S. is only 8% of sales. Most of that is two door sports cars and econoboxes. A very small % are four door sedans.
In Europe, 88% of cars come with "standard" transmissions.
You have to give Nissan credit for investing the money to develop a new Manual tranny. Toyota did for the IS300 and they will probably never earn back their R&D. At least Nissan can use the new six-speed in at least 3 new models.
Thank Goodness they didn't take the easy way out and buy a Getrag. Getrag's ratios, even in the six speed, give a very limited overdrive ratio.
Americans won't spend the money to develop new Manual trannies. In fact, there are not enough manual transmission engineers here in the U.S. to have a dinner party at Dennys.
Being 53, I only have a limited # of years to enjoy spirited driving.
I'll get an automatic when I can't get it up anymore.
I've driven the BMW a couple of times and it's hard to criticize it...incredibly tight, well-made car...with decent looks. I'm just afraid I couldn't get used to the "noise." I know such a statement is anathema to BMW folks, but it's just a little loud inside for my tastes (I don't necessarily want the isolation of a Lexus, but think I'd grow tired of the drone...)
I love the interior of the MB -- lots of gadgets and a very high quality feel to the switches. But the exterior leaves me so BORED. It just doesn't quite do anything for me (even though I really want it to!)
I've driven the G35 a couple times. Love the exterior and most of the interior. However, the one thing that really bugs me is the feel of the plastic inside -- it looks cheap (really gives away its Nissan heritage). In the car I test drove, the plastic between the front seats was already marred and scuffed...makes me think it'll look like crap a few years from now. The BMW and MB feel so much higher quality inside...
What do other's think about the interior quality of the G35?
The Saab is supposed to be a real hoot with lots of power and personality, but it is a Saab so you'll have to cross your fingers on reliability unless Saab has just leapt another rung higher in that department. Nothing but nothing delivers the best odds on reliability like a Japanese car, if you can put up with the down sides of those cars which to me are generally non-distinctive styling, and either bland or way too gimmicky interiors.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Does anyone know if the interior of the G35 coupe will be any different from the sedan? (other than those gratuitious "drilled aluminum" pedals?
That said, 45K (Canadian) for a 2 door bullet that will actually hold a set of clubs is my kind of car!
Thanks to Shipo for the pics ... I was getting tired of gazing at the promo shots on the Infiniti website
I think Carlos Ghosn is a genius automotive CEO. His products are just coming onto the market. His first, the new Nissan Altima, is now a great success. His G35 is zooming up the charts. The new Z is causing an excitement frenzy. And if the G35 Coupe is as good (some people are predicting even better) than the G35 sedan, we are all in for a great ride. European driving capability with Japanese reliability and durability, what a recipe for success. I think Mr Ghosn has the formula down right. Sure he took a gamble, but great things don't come to people who play safe. He commissioned the building of a new FM platform (mucho bucks), completely departed from the boring Nissan styling norm and put great emphasis on handling, drivability, power and looks. So what if the inside looks less expensive, just look at the price! Around $30k! My guess is that Mr Ghosn is taking a leaf out of the Lexus marketing book, following them when they first introduce in 1990, the LS400 at an inexpensive $35K. Look at where Lexus is today. I believe this is Infiniti starting all over again, this time they will be recognized. I have not seen this excitement at Infiniti/Nissan for years since owning them (a Q45 and I30T). In fact I now have first refusal for the G35 Coupe when it arrives. This is a first for me.
I have a question for Mr Shiftright, who I understand is a Mercedes expert. We are looking for a third car and my wife wants an SL, not the 2003 model, but the one that ran from 1990 to 2001. Can you give any insight as to their reliabililty and performance characteristics? Which year to look for, which year to avoid, 320SL or 500SL etc. etc. I would appreciate any information from anybody, or referral to any place with good ownership experience. Unfortunately, there has been no past discussion here in Edmunds on this model. Thanks.
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Plus, look at the folks posting on the SL500 board... "I just traded in my SC430 for a '03 SL500 but the steering wheel has a nick so I think I'll get a 911 Turbo and use the SL as a daily driver. But this is the best $100k car I've purchased in the last two years." Sheesh.
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\(>_<)/ whatever.
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I'm still wondering if that R35 GT-R concept will be different enough from the G35 coupe. The R35 GT-R will be an Infiniti.
I agree with the above comments about the strides the Japanese have made toward achieving the BMW feel, but I gotta say they still need to work on their interiors. (Which I think are about the most important part of a car given that is what you see 99% of the time when you are near your car)...
The G35 seems to have shed a lot of that white bread chemistry. I am very anxious to drive one, since I have a lot of BMW in the log book and should be able to judge the similarities/differences.
I'm sure I'll like it but can't say how much yet. How does the engine/exhaust sound? Any feedback. Of crucial importance to motorheads.
If you gotta have the Bimmer - buy the Bimmer.
End of Rant.
Anyone have insight re TIMING of G35 Coupe Convertible? I test drove the Sedan and it was great. My alternatives may be
a) Saab 9.3 Convertible with very low APR 3-yr lease;
b) Used Lexus GS400/GS300 and wait for the G35 Convertible; or
c) Used Lexus GS400/GS300 and Used Convertible that I could turn quick once G35 Convert. comes out(e.g. Saab used or other low price re-saleable convert. - Mustang?)
Any insights on G35 Convert. timing -- or anything else I am considering -- may help me sort though my confusion.
THANKS!
Preach it on the mountaintop!
... G35 convertible? trying to develop a mental picture ...
I think the Acura-Infiniti shoot-out is going to be very interesting. Acura has had this market to itself for a while now. I wonder if this will force a Honda migration towards RWD.
Nissan I see working out of necessity, which is also good, as necessity often produces things that complacency could not.
I wonder what BMW will do now that the gap is closing. Drop the price, or up the power on the 3-series? It does seem like there's a tremendous gap between the 330 and the M3 in terms of power. I'd be interested in a 250hp 330Ci. It's certainly going to need it if the G35 coupe is pushing 275hp in a lighter car with a 350Z suspension under $30k. 330Ci killer. If the G35 coupe sells out the door for $30k, is bolted together well, and handles half as well as the 350Z ought to, I think the 3-series may be relegated to "Pretty Good Driving Machine" status unless they either up the feature content, up the power, or down the price. This could be a heck of a coupe. Fastest coupe. Best handling coupe. Prettiest coupe. Cheapest coupe. If it hits a home run in all these areas, which it might very well do, BMW, Acura, Mercedes and the other high-line coupe builders won't know what hit them.
Whereas... the G35 is a luxosport coupe. Nissan has always believed in RWD compared to Honda's FWD "religion." Honda-Acura doesn't have a IS300 or G35 competitor, unless you do as I do and throw the RSX-S into the equation (and most people here refuse to do that, for whatever reasons they have). The RSX and CL aren't going to take on the IS300 and G35... Acura is talking about getting a model slotted below the CL/TL and above the RSX for this reason!
Audi is going to get an A4 coupe too... A4 coupe vs. G35 coupe, anyone? I would have to do a comparo if both existed, as they will later this year/earlier next year.