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Infiniti G35 Coupe

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  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,306
    If walking onto a car dealer's property is an "adverse experience," then they've won before you even start.

    You have the money, and they have the car -- whoever cares least wins the negotiation. There are tons of topics and posts here on Edmunds that will give you enough knowledge to deal with dealers. . .on your terms.

    Determine the invoice price and the market. Add 3% to what the dealer actually pays for the car (including dealer holdbacks and all the other s*** that doesn't show up on the "invoice"), and ask to talk to the fleet manager and/or salesperson. Make your offer. If they don't like it, leave. Repeat, until you've visited every dealer in your area. While this is the method I use, it's interesting to me that I've never had to go past two dealers.

    Say after me. . ."Whoever cares least wins the negotiation." If you're willing to wait and/or visit all the dealers, you lack that desperation that salespeople prey upon.

    If all of this sounds like too much trouble and/or completely out of character, you may belong in a Saturn.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Or if you want to pay above MSRP a G35. :)
  • markjennmarkjenn Posts: 1,142
    The negotiating tactic of offering a fairly low price and then walking out to visit other dealers is a good one, but it isn't going to net you a 3% over holdback-included invoice on a G35c. Being a tough negotiator isn't going to make the dealer cower in his shoes and sell the car for below market value. They're in the market every day and they know what buyers are willing to pay.

    Work this out and the dealer would have to sell a $32,500 MSRP G35c for $29,300. How many people have bought a G35c for $29,300? And to back this up, if there is a dealer out there listening that has a G35c they'd sell for $29,300, I'll buy it right now.

    There is no magic "% over invoice" that car dealers will sell any car for. You have to gauge the market yourself and go out and test it. Right now, the market for the G35c is about MSRP to $1K under MSRP. You can go to every dealer in the country offering $3200 under MSRP and the chances of it being accepted are nil.

    - Mark
  • sphinx99sphinx99 Posts: 776
    Give Michigan a try. Infiniti's selling, but nobody's buying. I've seen two G35 sedans, zero coupes, and one 350Z, ever. It's strange, because the redesigned Altima is selling like you wouldn't believe, sometimes it seems that there are more of those than there are Tauruses, and this is Ford country too. However, the Infiniti lineup is completely absent and judging by the number of G35 sedans that have been sitting on the lot for six months or longer at Suburban Infiniti (I drive past it every morning on the way to work), those certainly aren't selling for anywhere near sticker.
  • Thanks everyone for your responses to my question about the perceived noise and roughness of the G35 coupe on my recent test drive. First of all, I have decided to drive it again with the benefit of your input and some research. I still hope to like it enough to make it my next car.

    Even though we are all car fanatics, it is true that all the stats in the world will never tell you what a test drive will translate to the seat of your pants in a few minutes. I have to agree with kdshapiro - first impressions mean a lot.

    Some of you mentioned that my current car might affect my experience in the G35. You are absolutely correct. I am coming from a background of Japanese economy cars. I am now driving a 98 Toyota Corolla. Before that I owned two Camrys and a Honda Civic hatchback. Obviously, I am NOT accustomed to low profile tires, performance suspension, and engines with grunt.

    However, I am a 28 year old single guy who is a car freak and I am very enthusiastic about my first new car purchase. As I said before, I really want to get a good sports car that I can drive everyday on a pretty long commute.

    Others implied that at this level of driving involvement it is difficult to have performance and a smooth ride. I hate to bring it up, but this comment made me realize what ALL the magazines have been saying for so long: BMW really could have the perfect combination of comfort and sport. The 330Ci that I test drove was much more refined than the G35C, with similar performance and handling characteristics, IMHO. Granted, bang for the buck goes to the G35.

    As to the quantifiable aspects of this question, I looked it up. According to Car and Driver (01/03) the G35Coupe interior sound level is as follows:
    Idle..........46 dBA
    Full-throttle acceleration..........79 dBA
    70-mph cruising..........72 dBA
    These numbers are fairly high. Just for comparison, in the same magazine issue, this was equal to or substantially higher than the other cars tested (with sound levels listed). That included the Saab 9-3 Vector, the Saturn Ion, and every single SUV in an eight vehicle comparison test, except the Land Rover Discovery at Idle. Obviously, this is not a meaningful comparison with a similar class of cars, but we can predict that the 2004 G35C will have some serious work done in the area of NVH to stay competitive.
  • jwilson1jwilson1 Posts: 956
    With your name I think we assumed you were a performance car nut, but given the information above and your ownership history, I have a couple of suggestions ... meant to be helpful.

    Because of the cars you've chosen (instead of cars you could have had for similar money: an eclipse, a Miata, a Golf GX) my guess is that you will be more impressed by luxury than sport. If cars were named accurately (like the G coupe) this would make your job easy: just look for models called "luxury sport."

    But since they're not, you need to adjust your driving perceptions and that means lots of test driving, imo. (If it were me, this would be like an invite to a good dinner when I'm hungry!) Go out and test drive the BMW 3 and 5 series, the Lexus GS, the Lincoln LS, the Chrysler 300M, the G35 sedan, the Acura TL and CL and, if you're still interested, the G coupe again. See what you think. Toss in anything else that seems to you to offer an appropriate amount of luxury features and sport image and see what fits.

    Each is quite different, but you know that. The only thing I disagree with in your post is the assertion that the G is going to have to be silenced to pick up sales. Sorry, but I believe there is a real audience for a sports coupe, a 2+2 that is based on a sports car, not a 5-passenger sedan with two doors and a short roofline. No, it won't outsell the Altima, but it wasn't meant to. That's not the audience. Should you drive that, too?

    But we can disagree and still be friends. Enjoy yourself. But if you want to buy your first new car (if the BMW etc. is too pricey for a new purchase, they're still a real good buy as certified used cars) and you want it to be something you'll enjoy for more than a short while, you need to adjust your expectations to something other than the extremes of the daily driving of an economy car vs. the overly romantic and hyper critical atmosphere of car mags.

    Best for the holidays. Let us know what you decide!
    JW
  • stanny1stanny1 Posts: 962
    Thanks for including the Lincoln LS in your grouping of performance cars.
    The 03 Lincoln LS is a very refined car with very low NVH levels. Double thick laminated glass makes for a very quiet ride.It also makes for a heavy car. If ride and a luxurious atmosphere are important, the new LS is a good choice. It does 6.7 and .84g despite it's size and weight.
    I lease a 2000 Manual transmission LS and that car has been discontinued.
    This car is available as leases expire at almost half-price. How about 16-18k with fairly low miles.
    If you want an automatic, dealers are giving away the last of the 2002 V-8 LS Sports in the 30k range. Supperleggera, you MUST check out the deals while you can. The 03 LS will be over 40k.
  • Thanks for your message and happy holidays to you too. I see what you are saying and I guess I was looking at the G35C as a true GT. I thought that Infiniti, with its dual model approach, would make the 350Z razor sharp - without compromise - and it seems that they have. That leaves the G35 to be refined, a tad softer, definitely quieter, and easier to live with.

    Infiniti definitely did make it more practical and more luxurious, but I'm going to suspend my opion on the quality of the ride until I test drive it again. But suddenly, when the car is noisy and unrefined, it starts feeling like $30K isn't such a bargain and I might as well get a Mustang GT for ten grand less or an SVT Cobra for the same price. I know what I'm saying is heresy (please don't flame me), but I'm saying it with tongue in cheek.

    We can agree that lots of test driving means lots of fun! After all, it's a tough decision, but we should all be cursed with such horrible decisions as which luxury sports car to buy.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    This is not meant to persuade you on which car will better fit your preferences - only you can decide that. But as far as the "most bang for the buck" I respectfully suggest you reconsider your evaluation.

    From what I can tell from this board and elsewhere, a fairly good deal on a G35 coupe 6-speed with Premium Package would be around $1k under MSRP or roughly $33.5k. A BMW 330ci with SP, PP, Xenons, etc can be purchased through European Delivery for roughly $36k. While $2,500 isn't pocket change, it's not a very big difference for cars in the mid-30k range, IMO. Check out www.eurobuyers.com and add $1,200 to $1,500 to the "confidential wholesale prices" for your model and preferred options.

    As I said, the choice of car preference is up to you. But in comparing a $1k under MSRP G35C to a $1k under US Invoice 330ci, it doesn't take an MBA to figure out which is the better "deal". Especially if you have any plan to sell the car within 5 years. A BMW 3-series holds it's value considerably better than any previous Infiniti, and I expect that probably to be true with the G35 as well. And, if I'm not mistaken, BMW extended their full maintenance plan to 4 years 50k miles for all 2003 models.

    P.S. A 28 year old single guy is the ideal candidate for the European Delivery program. Back in the late 80's I worked for an international hotel company and know of at least 10 guys (and a few gals) in your demographic category that went ED and had a blast, in addition to the good deal.
  • you beat me to suggesting the euro-buyer program. if only I trusted bmws to run, I'd go that route as the 330ci is imho without a peer for handling, ride, interior and exterior styling.
  • snaphooksnaphook Posts: 130
    Where did the notion that BMWs were high maintenance come from? Their maintenance may be a little more expensive but it is not more frequent. Consumer Reports which places a high priority on reliability list the 3 series as one of its recommended used cars.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Yes, but I'm sure someone (although not me) will be quick to point out, that CR took the 3-series off it's recommended list because of reliability issues. Although if they asked me for my opinion,I would have to say it's been more reliable than the 3 last Japanese cars that I owned.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    "If I only trusted BMWs to run.."??

    I myself have only owned Japanese cars to date and previous considerations of BMW, Mercedes, Volvo and Saab were overtaken by my desire for trouble free driving and relatively inexpensive maintenance.

    However, I have to say that almost everyone I know that has owned a post 1990 +/- BMW has had a good experience. Especially after about the 1995 model year. I recently drove a business associate's 1990 525i sedan with 245,000 miles and, in spite of being underpowered by today's standards, felt amazingly solid, with precise steering and no obvious "aging" problems.

    Is your concern based upon personal experience, research or something else. I still won't go near a Saab, perhaps not a Volvo and reluctantly a Mercedes (other than the turbodiesel, which I would buy in a heartbeat if they reintroduced it in a 4-matic E-wagon version). But it seems to me that BMW's both gotten much more reliable over the past couple of decades and have gotten their repair and maintenance costs remotely in line with the Japanese brands. Am I wrong?

    One concern I have about Infiniti in the DC area is the poor reputation of several of the dealers in the area. I have heard nothing good about Jim Coleman and some very bad things about Rosenthal. So, at least in our area, I would be at least equally concerned about the cost and quality of service on an Infiniti as I would on a BMW.
  • European delivery is a great suggestion. I hadn't thought much about it, but it sounds like fun and you get to come back with those cool looking Euro license plates. I'll look into it. Thanks!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    It seems there is a lot of touting, in general, about BMW reliability problems, while some of the information is first-hand my bet is a lot of it is heresay. In the same vein as the G35 crowd in other threads was quick to point out that not everybody who participated in these discussions has ever seen or drove a G35.

    It does work both ways.
  • jwilson1jwilson1 Posts: 956
    Whaddya mean, not every critic has driven the car? I can't imagine that, kd;-)

    Actually, habitat, although I'm a Japanese fan (if we split the universe into BMW vs. Japanese), I would agree with your assumption -- that BMW (like most all cars) has improved dramatically, especially since the mid-nineties, on reliability issues. In fact, the included maintenance for the life of the warranty (part of the huge cost difference between the BMW and the Japanese competitor by the way) has made the visible 'cost of ownership' lower.

    I can't speak for all Japanese brands (nor even for one, for that matter!) but in the case of those which are noted for reliability -- Honda, Toyota, Nissan -- the 'reliability issue' divides into two parts: a)the number of visits to the dealership for warranty work, on average, for the BMW is something like 1.5 or 2:1 (the ratio comes from an article in Auto Week that I"m recalling, though without first-class accuracy). b) parts and labor that are not under warranty are much more expensive to deal with on a BMW (or any German/European luxury model) than they are for the popular Japanese brands. While BMW seems to be among the best these days for parts availability, it will cost hundreds more to replace a muffler or power window motor and assembly once the repair is out of warranty.

    And it isn't the engine that goes beserk in any of these cars, but the electronics and the "body integrity" (to use CR jargon) often at a higher percentage in BMW than in competitive Japanese brands. This is not to say that BMW does a poor job on any of this, but it is indeed a car with technology that is relatively advanced over its competition. The cost of maintaining it falls to the owner of course.

    It's only very recently that Japanese brands have attempted to compete, head to head, with BMW, Benz, and the other European standards. My guess is that such vehicles may well experience an increased number of problems, and greater repair costs, as their own technology advances to keep pace with BMW.

    But for the time being, to go back on topic, Infiniti/Nissan has the hot hand and is able to offer a new car: with styling that is very attractive (imo) and different, unburdened by the prestige "image" issues that eliminate BMW for many of us (no matter how much we admire its engineering and mechanical design), gives us an interior as 'functional' as the Germans once did (in the famous BMW 2002). Further, Infiniti's G promises a good chance of not being plagued by "reliability issues," offers serious (superior?) performance and a driving experience that is not as insulated from the road as BMW has become as it has tried to expand its market, and Infiniti provides dealerships that are often (though not always) service-oriented as a company policy, a dealerhip that is local for a car at a price that is two or three thousand dollars less -- and maybe seven thousand for those of us without the time or resources to go to Europe to pick up a car.

    As you can tell, I admire the BMW ... even the new 7 series and the design-challenged Z4 (which I haven't driven). But in the world outside of the fawning of auto reviewers in magazines, the BMW is still stuck with its partially deserved reputation as a country-club imagemobile -- coming more from its owners than from the car -- and the European Delivery cachet doesn't do a thing for the reasons many people simply drop it off the list.

    "Oh, where did you get your new 3-series, from X or from Y dealer?"
    "Oh no. I hopped a Concorde with Bambi and we spent the weekend in Europe, picked up the car while we were there."

    Hope I haven't offended, but if I have, please understand that lots of us democrat-types are out here.

    JW
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    JW - good post/good points, I guess I don't get the "prestige image" thing. Is a 325i more prestigious than a Infiniti Q45 for instance? I think that because the BMW lineup spans 30K to 150K, people who can afford to buy 150K cars might do things differently than people who can afford to buy 30K cars as the upper limit.

    I'm not sure why the type of person who drive/buys a BMW has any bearing on anything we could say, other than envy.
  • just a quick comment on dealers - I have been very happy with Coleman so far - 8K on my G since June. Both in the sales and service. I've had my G in for a TSB a/c fix and they did it w/o question - and I saw the bill and the part alone was $450. So far, so good.

    I agree with your comments on Rosenthal, however.
  • jwilson1jwilson1 Posts: 956
    Thanks for your reply, kdshapiro. I'm not sure I understand the 'prestige' thing either, but it's sure in evidence in my neighborhood.

    To answer (my opinion, since this is way out of my depth & probably verges on psychobabble): no, I don't think people would find a 3-series more prestigious than a Q45. But I do mean that many people believe anything from BMW is more prestigious than anything comparable from Infiniti and so will prefer the BMW rather than the infiniti (or any non-'status' car) in a comparison -- without priority for the automotive merits.

    Again, the BMW (3, 5, 7, etc.) is a fine car in any flavor, so it's not an bad decision, but I truly suspect the deck is preloaded for many. Without regard to specifics, such drivers would rather be seen associated with a BMW than a no-name, up-start brand. I suspect this leads many, even in auto mag reviews let alone on the street, to overlook BMW's brain cramps while they observe the excellences of the car, but to look at an Infiniti's successes more grudgingly and seek out its flaws. On the consumer level, this attitude leads to "country club" images of silver Benz and Bimmers. The image is of owners who have no idea what they're driving beyond an "ultimate driving machine." In this way, Infiniti's winning of awards is seen as a major upset and surprise (a reaction that is not without merit, btw), but not because it represents a victory by a brand that has made some very bad decisions, but because it doesn't come from one of the manufacturers we would have "expected" to win it.

    Or so I think.
    JW
  • ntt18ntt18 Posts: 8
    It amazes me that consumers are stil buying into
    the idea that your bmw will hold its value longer
    than G35c when in fact you have to pay at least 4-5k more to get similar optioned car

    Its an illusion that you can sell your bmw for
    more because its a bmw. A friend of mine could
    not sell his 2000 328i for the price he thought
    was bmw price. He finally sold it but it is 5k
    less than what his original asking price was.

    BMW has gotten pretty arrogant because of their
    success, charging thousands of dollars more for
    4 year old design. Its ok I guess when you are rich so does not care about prices.

    I am predicting that Lexus and Infiniti will
    fix whatever shortcomings their cars perceive
    to have then will see if BMW wil change their
    ways. BMWs have many flaws but car reviewers
    like to ignore them all.

    -nt
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    jwilson1: I generally agree with your specific comments regarding BMW's potentially higher out of warranty repair costs, etc. But, frankly, I think YOU are way too obsessed with your perception of BMW as an "imagemobile" as a reason to disparage it.

    Yes, I am sure there are some purchasers who bought one for nothing more than the cache of BMW. That's their choice and direct your antagonism towards them, if you feel compelled. But before you do, ask the question as to why Nissan, Toyota and Honda elected to create entire new "brands" under which to sell their upscale cars? Bingo, it was to give them the ability to play the "image game". And, at least in the case of Lexus and Acura, their biggest sellers are indeed "upscale". But for many years, the number one Infiniti sellers - the I30/35 and G20, were nothing more than rebadged, cosmetically altered Nissan products at a higher price. So who is more guilty of image marketing, Infiniti or BMW??

    I feel compelled to defend BMW in part because in almost 30 years of driving, I still don't think any other car company has done as good of a job at creating a "drivers" car. And BMW has been doing what they do best for many decades before the Japanese decided to jump in and try to copycat them. The 1990 525i with 245k miles I mentioned in my previous post makes my 1995 Maxima SE 5-speed feel like a Buick by comparison. The BMW's steering is much tighter and more precise and the 5-speed manual shifts more crisply and cleanly. I would defend the Maxima against anything by Honda, Toyota, or it's other Japanese competitors, but it's no BMW, IMO. If you can't tell the difference, then I would respectfully suggest you don't go with a BMW for that reason, not because you are a democrat.

    And, to be honest, I am a little guilty of image consciousness myself. I bought an S2000 last fall after considering among others, the Porsche Boxster S. Although the decision was made easier by the exceptional Honda performance at $25k less, I was also slightly concerned about sending the wrong impression with the Porsche. But when you are comparing $30-$40k or $40-$50k sedans or coupes with one another, that's a slightly different story. I don't think it should be done on the basis of image or political party. It should be done, IMO, as to what YOU think the better car is for you, given your needs and desires.

    ntt18: Check your resale values again. I'm not suggesting that resale value should be a deciding factor, especially if you plan on keeping the car for more than 5-6 years. But a 1998 328is is worth about $6k less than a 1998 Lexus LS400 ($17k vs. $23k). And the Lexus cost over $25k more new. I only picked it, because I didn't want to appear to be beating up on Infiniti and the Lexus is supposedly the top of the Japanese class. Do the comparison with a J30, Q45 or other Infiniti yourself.

    cheerioboy26: I'm glad to hear you are having a good experience with Coleman Infiniti. I used work for a certain hotel company headquartered right around the corner. A few of my associates had some problems with Coleman relative to Toyota and other brands. Hopefully, their Infiniti group will continue to give you good service. Maybe I will reconsider them in the future. Good luck.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    Compare that Lexus LS to a 7 series and you might be find the Lexus to have better value retention.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    You are right. However, the LS400 and, to an even greater extent, the Q45, have horrible resale compared to a Mercedes E-class, which costs roughly the same, brand new.

    Again, the importance of resale value varies. When I bought my Nissan Maxima back in 1994, I knew I would keep it for a long time, so I didn't care that it's resale was worse than an Accord or Camry. I considered it a better car than either of them and have not been dissapointed. But when I bought my S2000 last fall, I thought there was a high probability I would keep it less than 3 years, so I considered estimated resale value as a relatively more important factor in my purchase decision. Thank goodness I didn't dish out $58k for a Boxster S, I would have lost $15k+ over the past 12 months, compared to about $5k on the Honda.

    Most of my friends and associates who own Infinitis are very pleased with the cars, except if they bought new and try to trade early. One associate has used the poor resale value to his advantage and instead of trading, passed his J30 down to his daughter and bought his son a very nice used one at a small fraction of what a comparable quality new car would go for. They are both chugging along very well at 100k+ miles each.
  • "You are right. However, the LS400 and, to an even greater extent, the Q45, have horrible resale compared to a Mercedes E-class, which costs roughly the same, brand new."

    Horrible resale values, Lexus vs. MB?

    According to current Edmunds TMV listings:

    1998 Lexus LS400, average dealer retail: $25,600
    1998 Mercedes E430, average dealer retail: $27,900

    Ask yourself which of these two 5-year old luxury car do you think will cost less to maintain and operate over its NEXT five years assuming no extended warranty coverage?

    In fact, the Lexus TMV is low for So. CA zip codes - 1998 LS-400s with 35-45k miles are going for $26-29k from private parties; dealers ask $30-31k and take $28-29k.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Posts: 3,475
    LS400 to the 7 series.

    Comparing resale of the LS to the 3-series is like comparing resale of a 3 series to the 7. It make no since since they are in totally different market segments. Look at S600-class depreciation. WOW.

    That was why I said compare the LS to the 7 if you wanna go there. Or the 3 series to the G35 since they are competitors. If you reach far enough you can always find a way to prove a point. specially on Edmunds.
  • sphinx99sphinx99 Posts: 776
    Agreed. You might as well compare a 3-series coupe to a Caddy Eldo and say that the 3-series is clearly the better value, despite having half the room.

    I question the value of resale values as they are often presented. The S2000 allegedly has amazing resale value; I keep hearing that it holds its value well and that people can buy one, drive it for a year, and sell it for a $2000 depreciation or some other crazy number. Even dealerships around here push that story, hoping to persuade someone to buy one. And yet, at least here in Detroit, there are a number of lightly used S2000s for sale at high prices, and nobody is buying any of them. There are all sorts of high reserve prices on BMWs on ebaymotors.com but watch those cars and you'll notice that (a) nobody buys them and (b) they get relisted only to be not bought again.

    Certainly there are success stories, but for every success story there is at least one person who tried to sell a pricey German (or Japanese or American) car private party at the high price that the books claim he or she should get, gave up after four months, and traded it in to a dealer for thousands below what the books say he or she ought to have gotten. To those who would choose between a BMW coupe and an Infiniti coupe on the basis of resale value alone, I advise serious caution. The people here who say "a BMW will fetch you more money down the road" are giving a line like a dealership: if you ask them if THEY will give YOU that money down the road, they'll become silent very quickly, but they'll then assure you that it holds its value better in spite of being unwilling to put that in writing themselves. Just as plausible, you buy the 3-series (or G35 or whatever) now, try to sell it for $25k three years from now, and find that nobody wants to buy it because the '05 3-series and the '05 G35 and the '05 CL-S are all so much better than than the '02 330Ci.

    I guess I've had too many people try to sell me on the "high resale value" line while promoting their car, yet not being willing to put their resale value guarantees in writing, that I'm a bit of a skeptic. I like my S2000 and it only has 10k miles and eight months on it, but I'm not going to expect to reap $30k next summer for it, like the dealership "guaranteed" I would if I chose to sell it. I know that if I had to choose between a three or four year old 328 and a brand new G35 coupe that doesn't cost that much more, I'd be hardpressed to pick the old BMW. I suspect many would choose the same, given maintenance, warranty and other issues. So if the value proposition of a used BMW coupe today is already somewhat questionable thanks to the recent, impressive and low-cost competition, why assume that it'll be any less questionable three years from now when used G35 coupes have flooded into the used market?

    Or put differently, imagine that habitat is right and we're all in 2005 and looking to buy a used three-year-old coupe. The G35 costs thousands less than the BMW because it has depreciated so rapidly. If it's built reasonably well, and was made in fairly high volumes, it'll be a very popular used car. The 3-series coupe seller will have a tough time trying to sell his car at a BMW premium in a market saturated by used, cheap-as-dirt Infinitis that look beautiful, run well and are available in volume. That, I think, is the challenge that something like the G35 poses to the competition: if it depreciates, it'll hurt the competition; if it doesn't, it'll hurt the competition. It's a win-win proposition for Infiniti, so long as it's built well and in sufficient volume.

    BMW's still in the game because the product truly is fantastic. I'm not sure how long Mercedes, on the other hand, will be able to price the CLK into the stratosphere. If it weren't for the prestige of the CLK500 rubbing off on it, the CLK320 would be a heck of a tough sell.
  • sphinx99sphinx99 Posts: 776
    PS. Apologies for the anti-BMW tone of the previous post; it isn't intended. I think the 3-series coupe is an AMAZING vehicle. Amazing in isolation, and even more amazing for being a mass production vehicle. I'm just wary of the resale value argument. I've known too many people who bought cars on the basis of alleged resale value, as promoted by the fans, dealerships, zealots, etc., only to be forced to trade their car in at a dealership because nobody came forward with lofty offers when the treasure was put up for sale. These are volatile times, with some amazing performance bargains on the horizon, and nobody knows how either the BMW or Infiniti are going to hold their value. If you're going to buy either vehicle, I'd choose between the two based on what they offer and how much they'll cost to buy, and be prepared to lose a considerable chunk of change on either.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Your post makes a lot of sense. But of course you can't look at resale in absolute dollars especially among cars whose MSRP varies by a lot of money. The lower priced car will always win. I mean what's better a 40% residual on a Hyundia costing 10 grand a 50% residual on a G35 costing 30 grand. One way you lost $6K the other way you lost %15K. Does that make the Hyundia a better bet? It's all in your perspective.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,306
    that people acquire (almost wrote buy, so sorry) cars to actually drive them, rather than to: 1) be seen in them or, 2) dump them after the requisite two- or three-year lease.

    Leasing has so, so wrecked car acquisition. Since warranties and leases run for roughly the same term, cars that actually run (and more importantly, have accessories that continue to work) past a few years get no good publicity. Only the great unwashed care about what happens to a vehicle past the warranty, and only the truly Bohemian discuss what happens into the six-figure odometer range.

    That said, BMW is still the gold standard.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Leasing does however have it's place in the scheme of things, just like renting an apartment in Manhattan.
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