Ford Mustang (2004 and earlier)

judas · January 2003

Good lord people, its not going to be a 2 seater. That is a CONCEPT car. Not the production car.

cuteeric17 · January 2003

Judas, you never can tell what Ford will do. Sure, it's a concept, but most cars are concepted with the amount of seats the production car will have. I'm just guessing though.

ssaturn711 · January 2003

Check this out from motor trend...

"these concepts from the Ford Living Legends studio are 90 percent accurate to the production models"

link

http://motortrend.com/autoshows/coverage/112_det03/index6.html

I don't know how accurate their data is, but it looks to me like it will be at least a supercharged two seater. Sorry family guys, looks like you need to get a minivan to put your baby seat in. I definitely like the change to the vette-type sports car from Ford.

judas · January 2003

I give up.

judas · January 2003

"I definitely like the change to the vette-type sports car from Ford."

You shouldn't, because it'd mean the death of the Mustang. The Mustang has never been a sports car. It has never been a 2 seater (Again, barring special low production models). It has always been about affordable performance.

A 2 seater supercharged GT just kisses all that goodbye. I find it *extremely* difficult to believe that Ford would be stupid enough to change the Mustangs focus so drastically after it has been so successful. Last numbers I saw put Mustang sales at 3 to 1 vs both F-Bodies put together. Making the GT in a SC'd 2 seater means they're pulling out of that market after dominating it for years. After being so successful that it forced the F-Body into extinction and GM to completely go back to the drawing board.

Will they make a 2 seater? Wouldn't surprise me, after all, they made one 3 years ago. But they wont make the GT or the V6 or even the regular Cobra a 2 seater.

Will they make a SC'd version? Almost certainly, after all, they're making one right now. But I *sincerely* doubt they'd be stupid enough to make the GT SC'd, as it's going to bump it's price into the 30K range, pricing itself right out of its market.

john_324 · January 2003

It won't be a two-seater...just like it won't have 400 hp.

The whole point of a "pony car" is that it has (at least in theory) more utility than a pure sportscar (if at the expense of performance); this utility draws in a wider customer base.

Take away the rear seats, and you lose potential customers - if only through a substitution effect: all other sportcoupes have rear seats. Remember, most Mustang buyers do not buy the GTs, but rather the base model, which is more likely to be cross-shopped with other available coupes.

Besides, not having rear seats will boost insurance premiums that are already high, into the stratosphere. This will also hurt sales.

Finally recall the original early 1960s Mustang concept car (called the "Mustang II" interestingly): it was a two-seater. This configuration however was scrapped by production time. Same will likely happen now.

ambull · January 2003

I think what they were trying to do with the concept cars was make modern versions of the Shelby Mustang, which had only two seats. One article I read even said the spare tire in the back was done Shelby-style. So, yes, they may make special versions something like the concept cars, but not the base models or regular GTs.

andys120 · January 2003

that they might make a two-seater SVT Cobra and a four seat Mustang in GT and base form? I'm convinced this is what they'll do. The concept cars, though labeled "GT" are really preview of the next Cobra. I don't have inside info on this but if you think about it it makes sense.
The roll hoop shown on the convertible was a feature of '67-'68 Shelby GT350/500s these cars were patterned on (as are the tailights). Isn't the Cobra, with it's Shelbyesque name the modern day equivalent of the Shelby Mustangs?

Look for base Mustangs and GTs to have no roll hoop, smaller tailights (lll?) and smaller wheels. And of course a back seat.

Ford went thru the two-seat/four-seat thing in the 60s and disappointed a lot of sports car freaks when they followed the original two-seat mid-engine concept with the Falcon-based four-seat production car. The groans could be heard from the driver's seat of every Austin-Healey and Triumph in the land.

judas · January 2003

I doubt they'd make even the Cobra a 2 seater, although it's certainly more likely than the GT/V6.

All Mustangs are going to have different taillights and smaller wheels. It's already been said by Ford that the taillights aren't production and I don't think ANY Mustang is coming out in the near future with 20 inch wheels.

john_324 · January 2003

"Ford went thru the two-seat/four-seat thing in the 60s and disappointed a lot of sports car freaks when they followed the original two-seat mid-engine concept with the Falcon-based four-seat production car. The groans could be heard from the driver's seat of every Austin-Healey and Triumph in the land."

But those groans were more than drowned out by the roar of praise from the huge numbers who bought the Mustang when it appeared (something like 400,000+ units sold first year). True, the Mustang was not a car that sports car fans would appreciate, but then again it was never meant to be that kind of car. Lee Iacocca took the sportscar concept and turned it into something that the burgeoning American middle class would want to buy. It really was a stroke of genius when you think about it.

I just wish Triumph had the Mustang's longevity...sigh...I love the Spitfires and TR-6s. Were a descendant still available (with non-Lucas electrics of course), I'd have reconsidered deciding on a Mustang.

judas · January 2003

So, John, you thinking about a trade in when 2004 rolls around? I'd love to get one of the new ones when they come out but I think it'll have to wait until I finish college. Until then I'm pretty happy with my 88 Coupe:

http://home.mchsi.com/~nkloper/P0003369.JPG

john_324 · January 2003

I'll keep my '02 for awhile I think; I'm really happy with it.

I've loved Mustangs since growing up with the Fox bodies, and to finally be able to have one of my own really makes me happy...besides, I figure give Ford a few years on the new design to work out the major glitches before buying. Of course, maybe I shouldn't wait too long...if the geopolitical situation in the Middle East deteriorates further, before long we could be seeing a new "Mustang II" created to weather the new energy crisis. : (

Yours is a fine-looking machine. It always makes me happy to see Foxes that are really taken care of...there's too many running around that have been abused and driven into the ground by thoughtless owners....I hate that. Yours a 302 or a 6?

judas · January 2003

302. 5 Speed, no power windows or locks or mirrors, no AC, radio delete. Barring the Cobra models I think this (And those like it) are probably the quickest fox bodies ever made. It's got a moderate list of bolt ons that were added before I bought it, March Ram Air and underdrive pulleys, B303 cam, MAC headers, X-pipe and Flow path mufflers. Plus 4.10 gears. I'd guess it's got somewhere in the neighborhood of 275 horsepower, which seems just about right. I too grew up loving the Fox Bodies, and finally said the hell with it and got the nicest one I could afford. I think it'll have a place in my garage for a long time to come.

john_324 · January 2003

Nice, you've got one of the rare "stripper V8s"...all the better. If that style were still made, I've had gotten one in a hearbeat. Not that I'm a total performance guy, but rather I'm attracted to the purity of the driving experience that it offers.

If I had one of those, I'd too hold on to it for a long while.

And while the 4.6 is a great engine, I must confess to "engine envy": the sound of the 5.0, both at idle and WOT is superior (at least to my ears) to the 4.6's. I esp. like how the 5.0 sounds when cruising slowly, say through a parking lot. Menacing, but in a controled way.

andys120 · January 2003

In case you've forgotten, the original snake was a two-seater. Isn't the SVT Cobra supposed to take on the Corvette? Isn't Ford sick of all those sales going to GM?

I say it'll happen. The next Cobra, though based on the Mustang won't have a back seat.

The FordGT will be too expensive to counter the Corvette.

americanflag · January 2003

John, that was a very interesting point about the original Mustang concept in the 60's being a two seater, I sighed a breath of relief when I read that, I could see Ford trying to redo the original launch, they are definitely into the retro thing after seeing that interior.

But it seems to me the biggest argument against the two seater is the Ford Thunderbird. They alreadly have a two seat high priced V-8 built on the LS platform, why would Ford need another?

andys120 · January 2003

Even the original two-seater Bird was never thought of as a sports car. If Ford wants a piece of the Corvette action they need a high performance (2-seat) sportscar at an attractive price.

judas · January 2003

"Isn't the SVT Cobra supposed to take on the Corvette?"

Not really. I'm sure some people cross shop them but they still have totally different purposes. Someone that wants a Vette or a car like the Vette isn't really going to be swayed by the Cobra, and vice versa.

"Isn't Ford sick of all those sales going to GM?"

I'd imagine they're fairly happy with all the pony car sales that they're getting that GM isn't.

Sure, it'd be nice to have a Ford Vette fighter, but the Mustang isn't it, and removing the rear seat doesn't make it one. The only reason to make a Mustang without a rear seat is if you're going for an all out bare bones production race car, as in a Cobra R, and the Cobra R isn't a Vette fighter either. Otherwise it doesn't make any sense to remove the rear seat, it doesn't weigh that much, and it adds a LOT of utility, plus keeps insurance costs down.

cuteeric17 · January 2003

It's funny how insurance companies lower the insurance rate when you have a car with 4/5 seats in it (more people to kill in the car IF an accident were to occur).

bmetz · January 2003

I love the new look. Maybe this is because my first Mustang was a '68. Usually, it takes me a while to get used to major changes with the Mustang, but not this time. I only hope this car stays in the same market segment it is in now and has been in since it's birth: Sporty, practical, affordable, and insurable. A little weight loss wouldn't hurt either. I'd like to see manual windows and door locks available again also.

I am also glad they brought the Mach 1 back, although I am not happy with the look of it just yet. The Magnums don't have enough backspacing and the car looks tall from the front. Mechanically, I'm very happy with it. This is the performance level I will be purchasing for my next Mustang, should it still be available.

I would also consider a Boss 302 version with a DOHC 5.0 liter motor and a similar visual treatment as the Mach 1. Mine will be a manual. I can hardly wait to see the 04 Mach 1 since my favorite Mustang of all time is the '70 Mach 1.

As far as a vette fighter goes, I must agree that the Mustang should not be it. The Mustang is now in a segment by it's self and judging by the number I see around so cal, it's selling very well. Updates are great and very necessary, but don't change the market segment.

andys120 · January 2003

Just got the Feb issue of Automobile and there's a cover story w a lot of good poop on the new 'Stang--

-The production versions will be close to the GT concept cars and will be unveiled in April 03 the 40th anniversary of the 64-1/2 (Memo to Bill Ford:
my birthday is April 16th and I like red convertibles too).

-The roll hoop won't make it to production, the real cars will be 2+2s as Mustangs have always been.

-They'll start with these versions:

Base with 3.0 DOHC V6 based on the Lincoln LS unit but wo VVT, about 215 hp (more than my '86 EFI 5.0!)
GT with 4.6 V8 (24 valves)about 250-260 hp (my guess not their's, they didn't say).
Mach with 4.6 V8 (32 valves) about 300 hp.

There won't be a Cobra until the 06 year and it won't, they say get a 5.0 V8 but most likely a supercharged 4.6, I'd guess 390-400hp like the show car.

They didn't say about the possibility of a 2-seat Cobra.

J Mays acknowledged that he gets a lot of flack about the retro look but feels that the infusion of Mustang cues will keep the brand alive and strong.

I owned a 5.0 liter/5-speed for a longtime but a felt that it had two major flaws. First it didn't look like a Mustang (it sure sounded like one) and second, the crude platform resulted in a very hard ride, comparable to old British roadsters). The new design appears to fix both those problems and I can't wait to drive it.

I commend Automobile on a strong report.

americanflag · January 2003

Wow! It the coolest instrument panel I have ever scene, the gauges have tiny little gear mechanisms that you can actually see attached to the sweeper hands. Hope that makes it into production.

Second, I haven't heard this mentioned but those of you who hate the current Stang's 4X4 look should be happy with the new model. One of the design goals was to put the wheels close to the wheel wells.

Also, I believe they are thinking the 302 Boss edition may not make it in 2004 or 2005, but instead Ford may make the Mach 1 for another year. That would make sense, the Mach 1 is still not here at our dealers yet. And the Mach 1 is a good thing, they could run that for a while. I don't think anyone would complain

andys120 · January 2003

they'll have various "editions" of the Mustang as they go along to keep it fresh. I wouldn't expect anything for the first year and possibly not for the second (when the Cobra comes out)
There's talk of new Boss 302s, California Specials
and J Mays says he'd like to see another Bullitt.

If you think about it, there are a lot of possibilities. I'd like to see something with a GT-350 theme.

americanflag · January 2003

americanflag · January 2003

have a spoiler. It was tan so it was not a Bullitt edition. I thought all GTs came with spoilers, it looked good and I was just wondering if anyone knew how these guys got a Mustang bare?

demonspeed · January 2003

Might have taken it off... or may have been a "248A"... not sure if that is available on 99+ mustangs, but I have a friend with a 96 GT that was a stripper almost like the 95 GTS... now power, V6 seats, no wing... almost like a Camaro 1LE, but it did have a radio and a/c

mariner7 · January 2003

I like the new (or, should I say, old) design. But it should have more modern flair, it's not like nothing has evolved in auto design in last 40 years.

The whole Ford car lineup needs to be revitalized. It was a perfect chance for Ford to come out with the new Mustang, its best icon, and sprinkle its styling cues throughout its lineup and develop a Ford family look. Nothing JMays said pointed in that direction.

rumble97 · January 2003

I'm sorry, but the GT emblam on the 2004 Mustang is horrific! It at least needs to be an option. Just my 2 pennies.

argent · January 2003

I wonder if we'll one day end up with a retro package of that OTHER famous 1969 Mustang model -- the Grande, with fake woodgrain, extra sound deadening, and a standard padded vinyl top. Probably not, but it wouldn't be any more tacky than some of the trim packages I've seen lately.

I sincerely doubt Ford would even consider a two-seat mass market Mustang (i.e., base or GT). I could see another R model or Cobra/SVT project with a rear-seat delete (the Cobra R racing models were like that), but the one really strong bit of wisdom that Ford's gotten from both the Thunderbird and the Mustang is that while all the world may _love_ a two-seater, all the world will BUY a four-seater. That's why the '58 Squarebird sold as many cars as the '56 and '57 two-seaters combined, and why the Mustang sold over a million units from introduction through the '66 model year while Chevy sold something in the vicinity of 25,000 Sting Rays in that period. That philosophy has made Ford scads of money over the years, and I can't see 'em disregarding it now.

andys120 · January 2003

the new Bird is strictly a two-seater and quite popular from what I can see. Actually I agree that the base and GT Mustangs should be 2+2s but I think a two-seat Cobra version might work. They need to separate the Cobra visually from the other Mustangs.

Perhaps a delete option is the way to go with that.

argent · January 2003

A fair point, that. On the other hand, Ford's pegged production of the new Thunderbird at 25,000 units. Even though the four-seat big personal coupe genre is pretty close to dead, the last of the four-seaters sold 79,000 in 1997. That was down a third from the year before, which was a drop from '95, and with sales similarly drying up for the Buick Riviera, Lincoln Mark VIII, and Cadillac Eldorado, Ford decided to move the T-bird way upmarket so that it would be profitable as a small-volume "niche" product.

Ford COULD do that with the Mustang, certainly, move the whole line into Corvette territory with a commensurate increase in price. It'd have to be a pricier product to support much lower volume, and I don't think that'd go over well at all with Mustang fans.

john_324 · January 2003

I think the T-birds are more of what people in the business call a "halo car"...it's what gets you down to the Ford dealership; once there, you realize that you actually need a Taurus (ugh, but true for a lot people I suppose...) So their sales are less important than the image conveyed. Besides, the T-bird is kinda expensive for what you get and at least in my area, are abundantly available at local dealers. That said, I'd love to own one some day.

What I'd like to see for the Mustangs would be a return of the "stripper" performance models...someone on another board had the by-gone package codes for them I think. The current models have a lot of stuff I could do without (I really don't need power windows in a coupe) and I like the immediacy of a pure performance Mustang.

Re the "Grande" edition...have a link to a picture of one? This I *have* to see... : )

argent · January 2003

Niche market, "halo" car, pretty much the same thing, translating into "more money than you can probably afford." In some respects the Thunderbird (especially in four-seat form) has always been that -- you paid dearly for "exclusive" styling and a lot of gimmickry.

The appeal of the Mustang has always been similar in some ways (style and gimmicks on top of conventional, if not rustic, mechanicals)...BUT the key difference is that it's always appealed as a car for the masses, whereas part of the traditional Thunderbird 'personal car' schtick was that it was vaguely snobbish. (Mass-market exclusivity!)

For photos of a '69 Mustang Grande, check out this guy's:

http://rain.prohosting.com/tonygill/69mustang.html

The "plushstang" approach seems more than a little silly, but it should be noted that given Ford's "custom-build your car" option approach, you could get most any Mustang powertrain combination in a Grande, and there were at least a couple with 428CJ engines...

americanflag · January 2003

will be a two seater, there have been references to Ford offering a 2+2. Also, remember we have only seen the concept.

Still don't get those that are so against the retro aspect of the new Mustang. If you want a cutting edge modern technology type car, get a 350Z. If you make the Mustangs into 350Z type cars, then they are Mustangs in name only. I think J Mays is right on from what I have seen thus far.

americanflag · January 2003

The car sits much lower and close to the wheels I noticed, so I guess Ford agreed with you!

jeffer2 · January 2003

The new design is on the cover of the Feb. Motor Trend. I may pick up the mag tonight.
- J

andys120 · January 2003

I haven't seen Car & Driver yet but I'll bet it's on there too. I can tell you that hasn't happened since 1964. Nice going J Mays and Ford.

demonspeed · January 2003

I don't like the 2 seat thing, but they said it will be a 2+2 when it goes into production. It's too retro for my tastes, although it's going in a good direction though. I'm not really convinced either/or though. I'll have to wait until they hit the show rooms for a test drive to offer some real thoughts, I just hope they lose the red interior hehe

gt4me · January 2003

Just show us THE COBRA FOR 2004!!!!!! I really wanted an XI BMW but jeez, this new stang look REALLY excites me.

maverick24 · January 2003

I'm a big fan of the way the 2005 stang is heading but I'm curious if the silver concept car, that we have been seeing pictures of, is the final design that is going into production?

I've heard various rumors that they are still making slight mods. Does anyone know if this is true?

In my opinion I would like to see more of the retro 68 look put into the design. I dont like how they shortened the front of the car and angled the hood down. The way they snubbed front end of the concept car reminds me of an old 80s Delorian. I would much rather see the front end longer and higher like it was in the old 68 stang. It makes it have that aggressive look which is a signature of the stang in my opinion.

There was a blue sketch of the 2005 mustang floating around that seemed to exemplify this and I am hoping that it is more like what the production version of the car will look like.

andys120 · January 2003

that blue sketch doesn't appear to be the production version. The show cars are close to the final version but the production car may have a taller roof and windshield and perhaps smaller taillights. I'm not sure what you want them to do w the hood but that's pretty close to production they say.

IMHO the show cars look much more fluid than the infamous blue sketch. The Mustang was of my shopping list when I saw that sketch but now it's at the top.

argent · January 2003

The current C&D has the Dodge Hemi hatchback thing on the cover, not the Mustang. It doesn't say anything in particular about the concept except for a one-paragraph blurb in their notes on the Detroit show.

blacktalon · January 2003

While I'm still not a fan of the new convertible, the more I look at the new coupe, the more I like it. The curves on coupe make it look more streamlined than the convertible. Now, if only then can squeeze in the IRS...

argent · January 2003

I was surprisingly pleased by the looks of the concept car except for the taillights, which feel like they were borrowed from some other car -- and not a Mustang or even a Ford product.

The IRS issue is annoying. I know there are those who don't care if the rear end is vintage ox cart so long as the price tag is low and the horsepower high. I think that to have a live-axle Mustang after Ford has even given the Explorer and Expedition IRS feels cheap and crude. I wouldn't buy a live-axle new Mustang. I'm not looking to build a dragstrip car, and no matter what you do with spring placement, shock damping, and Watts linkages, the live axle has too much unsprung weight and too little articulation to give handling and ride that are competitive with other cars I'd be considering. If I wanted crude and cheerful, I'd get a restored vintage Mustang.

andys120 · January 2003

and it's about time, live axle Mustangs ride like my old (live axle)'66 TR-4 (not a compliment).

checkme · January 2003

I think the new Mustang concepts are magnificient. Ford has perfectly captured the classic Mustang look in the new concepts.

I understand the criticism of opting for a retro design. However, I think there is a difference between "retro" and "classic." A "retro" look is one which attempts to make something dated fashionable again. An example of this is avacado-green kitchen furniture. We all grew up with this furniture. A few years ago, it became cool again. Not surprisingly, it's not cool any more. The brief avacado-retro craze fadead as quickly as it began.

A classic look, on the other hand, is colonial furniture. It never goes out of style. It might not be to your liking (I don't especially care for it) but it's a timeless look that is always in fashion.

A classic look has to be done well. One of those $99.95 8-piece dining room sets made of pressboard and covered with tacky white paint is going to look bad, even though it is based on a timeless design. However, exactly the same design will look stunning if it is done in natural cherry or maple and sealed with clear laquer, not painted.

I think the new Mustang is classic, not retro. Retro would mean bringing back whitewalls and curb feelers. Classic means flowing lines and simple instrument clusters.

One might argue that a classic look does not appeal to younger buyers. However,I don't think this is the case. First, classic American style is very fashionable right now. It's all over movies and television shows made for children. Prediction: you will see A LOT of American muscle cars in the next "Fast and the Furious". One of the main characters will surely drive one- maybe even the protagonist. Then there's Vin Diesel's car in "XXX", the Trans-Am Firebird on the Mountain Dew commercial, etc.

Second, younger people have no objection to a classic look. Blue jeans are still popular, and while the little details, like labels and pocket styles, have changed, the basic look has not. The Gap's clothes haven't changed that much in 20 years, either. In fact, I recently bought essentially the same shirt that I had in high school- a white button-down long sleeve shirt with red pencil stripes. Plenty of kids like classic guitars, like Fender Strats, etc. While retro might turn off younger buyers- they don't remember the avacado-green furniture, so it won't make them feel all nostalgic- classic won't. They may even like it.

stang217 · January 2003

The new 04 model looks like my grandpa's caddy on crack. I love mustangs preferably 88 and up. But this new model makes the Mustang begin to look like every other car on the road. Stop trying to bring back that retro look Ford! Mustangs are supposed to have that outstanding look. One that turns heads. Not this ugly thing. I never thought I'd see the day when a mustang began to look like a regular consumer car. Also the GT emblem looks rediculus. I know I have no say in what this car looks like. But for one thing, I'll never purchase this crap. What a horrible model Ford. You have ruined the Mustang! By the way I have a 98 GT, it looks mean, unlike htis "sporty consumer mobile"
Sincerly
Very disapointed

stang217 · January 2003

checkme, I'm 20 years old and most of my friends all have mustangs, and your right, the 04 stang does turn off younger buyers. (Not like i can afford a brand new car now) but how could you make that a muscle car?? No one i have spoken to comes remotley close to liking it. What i don't understand is why do car companies like to ruin or discontinue beautiful cars. For example: The Toyota Supra, nice car, fast, and stylish, of course they have to discontinue it. But wait, they are bringing it back and now it looks gross. The new Mustangs, Bravo to the 03 b/c she looks gorgeous, but what the heck is the 04? That looks horrible. It makes me mad to think of that car actually on the road. The Chevy is REALLY going to be laughing now. Another car is the 3000GT, nice sprts car but for some reason Mitsubishi decides to discontinue it. The T-bird, what a horrible piece of trash that car looks like right now. It looks like it's for a bunch of Old lady's sipping some tea. Come on Ford!!! If you want a classic Mustang go find one somewhere. Also, stupid Ford has to discontinue the 5.0 engine. But wait they are bringing it back but of course it is a stupid version of it that puts outless power then the 4.6. Somone please tell me what Ford is thinking?

andys120 · January 2003

Ford is thinking that there's a lot of us that are old enough to remember what a real Mustang looks like. And they're figuring out that unlike
most 20 year olds they can afford to buy and insure a new Mustang.

They're right, and so is Checkme.

mustang06i · January 2003

I cannot believe that Ford would show us pictures of this and call it a Mustang. Mustangs go way back for having that "bad a*s" look, they are muscle cars. But this looks more like a cheap luxury family car. I want to keep it short but I have alot to say so my final comment is Ford thinks that they can produce something like this and stick a 5.0 in it and that will be the selling point.

Ford Mustang (2004 and earlier)

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