Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

drgordo · June 2003

Took my wife's 2K OB in last week for the 60K service. Although I do all of the routine oil changes and general maintenance, the press of work and other obligations meant letting the dealer take care of the 60K tasks. This dealer (I will not mention the name) has evening service hours so we dropped the car off at 5:00 p.m. and picked it up the next morning. My wife complained about an oil smell when she got home.

I noted the next morning a significant oil puddle on the garage floor and I called her at work and told her to check before she went anywhere at lunch. She reported back a large puddle of oil under the car. Called the dealer and was told to bring it in anytime and they would look at it but they were pretty sure it was not related to any work they had done. My wife took it immediately to the dealer (I told her to check the oil level first to make sure it wasn't running too low). Upon arrival she was told she would have to make an appointment to bring it in. After an exchange of phone calls they agreed to look at it. They reported back that a couple of "screws" were not tightened. They topped up the oil, gave her a certificate for a free car wash and oil change. Like I should trust them to do it right next time.

When she got home I checked out conditions and from oil residue on the splash pan it was clear oil had been leaking from both drain plug and oil filter. Then last night she got the follow-up call from the dealer asking how the service was. She gave them a four stars out of five. But she did express our disappointment with the service. I'd have given them a one, at best. Just another reminder of why I rarely take any of my cars back to dealer for service, unless a warranty repair.

Still have the original Firestones, and will make another 10K before I replace them before winter. Original brake pads are also in great shape and should easily make another 20K to 30K before replacing. Needless to say I will probably do it myself.

ateixeira · June 2003

No seat covers here, but I like the velcro idea. I think an air bag would have the force to break through any fabric any way.

-juice

kens · June 2003

Sorry to hear about that experience with the dealer. Not tightening the filter and drain plug is not excusable. There's clearly a quality control issue with that dealer, not to mention their arrogance that it wasn't something due to them.

I personally think you let the dealer off to easy. They should at least offer to have your garage floor cleaned, replace the splash gaurd (which is probably also soaked in oil) and even offer a huge discount on the 90K service interval.

If you're not satisfied with the way the dealer handled their error, I'd call 1-800-SUBARU3 and make sure someone at SOA knows.

Ken

ateixeira · June 2003

MD dialed back their emissions program and no longer puts 2WD vehicles on a dyno. While they had that program, 4WD/AWD vehicles took a special lane that just kept the trucks in neutral. I liked it - the lines were shorter.

Well, now they're testing all the cars in neutral again, so you can take any lane.

I think they stopped because it took too much time and people complained about the lines. Last time, my Miata went on the dyno but the Forester didn't. This year, neither had to go on a dyno.

-juice

patrickm2 · June 2003

Anyone have a problem with the reception on their AM radio? I have major interference all of a sudden. I'm wondering if it's a bad ground, or if the antenna somehow came unhooked. Seems to be tied in with the fan. The higher the fan speed, the worse the interference on the radio. Also picking up interference when the wipers are on.

bat1161 · June 2003

Ebony,

You can take your OB to any inspection station in NY, just make sure you tell them it is AWD. I go to a local place and the only thing they don't do is Dyno it.

Mark

subearu · June 2003

...they have a dyno for FWD/RWD vehicles and a seperate lane for 4WD/AWD vehicles.

However, I can't remember the last time I had a vehicle dyno'd. They just plug in the OBDII connector, do a test with the vehicle idling, and it's done.

-Brian

stevek · June 2003

I am waiting for 3 months now and they still "reviewing the case", bottom line is that they have my wires, they wont refund my money therefore they just made a 100 bucks. To me it is a dishonest company that will not stand by their product, and I am a repeat customer, go figure

ateixeira · June 2003

Reminds me, they did plug in the ODB2 thing last time I went. Now I can't recall if they ran the simulation at all, in fact it was so fast they must not have.

-juice

lfdal · June 2003

I read somewhere (owner's manual?) that putting anything over the seat side airbag was a no-no.

Of course it could be SOA just trying to cover their liability in case the bag fails to deploy properly.

I also read somewhere, and I don't know if this is true or not, that the side airbags are the reason we can't get side rails for the 03 Foresters.

Anyone know for sure on that?

Larry

ateixeira · June 2003

Maybe they interfere with the air bag sensors, or Subaru is afraid they might?

-juice

lfdal · June 2003

That would be my guess

Larry

axp696 · June 2003

There are a lot of seat covers and leather seat covers that are designed with tear-away sections so that airbags will deploy correctly, and aren't visible except for close inspection. If you want to cover them, you shouldn't have any issues if you research the covers first.

crimsonlizard · June 2003

I purchased my 03 Forester X 5 speed in March--went out of town to save $2500. The car drove fine on the way home. Shortly after, however, I noticed the car pulling to the right--sometimes, depending on the circumstances (wind, speed, road conditions, etc) slightly, sometimes, more pronounced. Generally, I have to steer slightly left of center. No big deal, but it gets annoying, especially on long trips.

At my first oil change, I asked my local dealer to take a look at the problem. They found that the alignment was slightly off, and corrected the problem under warranty (the car had under 3000 miles and I haven't even hit a rough road or gone off-road yet).

Problem solved? Not quite. It still pulls somewhat, depending on the conditions. And, I still generally have to drive while steering slightly to the left. I took it back today, and the tech's brilliant conclusion is that the car does not actually pull to the left. I am imagining it.

What could the problem be? (Since other drivers have also noticed the pull, I'm fairly certain I'm not losing it). Still the alignment? Could the steering be improperly "calibrated"? An AWD problem?

This is my first Subaru--and I love the car. The problem is really minor, but I am getting tired of always having to steer left to stay on the road--especially when the wind picks up.

Thanks.

p0926 · June 2003

I'm not certain how one would go about "calibrating" the steering (other than centering the steering wheel).

I suppose it's possible that resistance in a portion of the drive train sending power to the right front wheel could pull the vehicle in that direction. However I wouldn't think it's AWD related since there's no front LSD.

Pulling to one side is usually an alignment problem. However if that checks out, here are a couple of possibilities:

- The crown on some roads is sufficient for the car to want to drift to the right.

- I've heard that even when perfectly aligned, some cars are designed to pull slightly to the right. Supposedly this is to reduce the chances of a head-on if the driver becomes incapacitated (or falls asleep).

You've already brought up a 3rd possibility, which is wind direction. The Forester has a fairly significant profile and a decent wind will noticeably affect the steering (this would be especially true if you're coming from a smaller more aero-dynamic vehicle). Of course some drivers are more sensitive to steering inputs too...

-Frank P.

dallan1 · June 2003

Most of the cars my family owns pulls slightly to the right, even when they were new or newly aligned. Going down straight roads, my wheel is always shifted slightly to the left to compensate, and it can get a little annoying.

The idea that this helps avoid oncoming traffic makes sense though.

crimsonlizard · June 2003

I have experimented with the car in various winds and on both sides of the road, and these conditions do affect the drive of the vehicle--but I still end up pulling right. Maybe it is something that it built into the vehicle--or, just build into my particular Forester. Even if it's not, I may just have to get used to it--maybe it will work itself out. Like I indicated, it's really not that big of a deal--just a little annoying at times.

Thanks for the imput.

p0926 · June 2003

Interesting story: I once had a Nissan that on a perfectly straight and flat stretch of road, I could get to go for over a mile with both hands off the steering wheel. It had almost perfect alignment and by using acceleration-induced torque steering, I was able to counter the car's slight pull to the right.

-Frank P.

georgeinmd · June 2003

A defective or damaged tire is another common cause, easy to overlook. (The voice of experience here...)

George

nygreg · June 2003

I believe the X includes this feature as part of the AWP. You paid extra for it. ;-)

I have almost always found that a slight pull is tire induced. Try making sure the pressure in all tires are the same. You might also try rotating the tire(s) front to back to see if it changes the pulling (one side at a time for OCD folks). Recent pull in my Sienna went away with the new Harmonys installed. Also, a fairly large pull developed on my OB when I had the Sport A2s cross rotated. Definitely tire related.

Never thought of designed in pulling to prevent head on collisions. Interesting.

Greg

kens · June 2003

Folks, I really doubt cars are designed to pull to one side of the road to avoid head-on collisions. That's an urban myth. The Forester is manufactured in Japan where people drive on the other side of the road. I really don't think Subaru would bias the alignment depending on where they're exporting the vehicle!

99.9% of consistent pulling problems are from alignment, tires and/or road conditions.

Dealers don't always know how to do alignments. I've found Subaru dealers that have had all their alignment specs calibrated off. In other words, each tire was in perfect alignment relative to each other, but all four tires were off by the same amount. I would only trust a dedicated alignment shop to do this right. I highly recommend trying to find a reputable shop in your area.

Next are the tires. Quite often, manufacturing inconsistencies in tires will cause them to drift off center a bit. Again, a good alignment shop can identify this and remedy it by rotating the problem tire to another wheel position. Tire pressures can also play a role. Make sure the left-right pressures are not way off.

Finally, even the most seemingly flat roads are crowned. Try experimenting on various roads to see if it persists. Sometimes freeways are built on separate stretches of asphalt so you can drive in the "fast" lane and have the crown dip to the left. Again, a good alignment shop will always take your vehicle out for a road test after the alignment job. They will know which roads in the area are flat.

Moral of the story: Trust an alignment shop to do a proper alignment.

Ken

subearu · June 2003

find a shop that has Hunter equipment (also used for doing wheel balancing). My dealer has Hunter alignment equipment and set our Outback's alignment dead perfect to the specs. No pulling.

Do you have a copy of the alignment results from the last time it was in? Sometimes the shop will give this to you to 'show' you the car is aligned. Maybe we can identify a possible source of the slight pull from that spec sheet.

But, the easiest thing to check is tire pressure (mentioned above). Maybe try 32 psi all around if you're not already at that?

-Brian

fibber2 · June 2003

They had to plane 5 mils (5/1000") off of the left head to remove the gasket scrub scratches (but did it off both to maintain compression balance). Along with some maintainance items (timing belt, water pump, tranny flush), ran him under $2100. Stark contrast to the $4500 "scrap the engine" approach of the local dealer.

Steve

locke2c · June 2003

whew, that's still quite a bath. reminds me of exactly why I replaced my own head gaskets twice.

-Colin

bluesubie · June 2003

Is it possible to lube the wiper motor?

The motor on the OB is kind of noisy (makes a loud humming noise).

-Dennis

crashton6 · June 2003

I really don't know if you can lube the motor. What I suggest you do first is make sure all the wiper linkages are lubed & not binding. If that is ok, well maybe then try to lube the motor. More than likely that if the motor's humming it's on the way out.

kens · June 2003

Steve: That's good to hear, but will there be a significant loss in compression? 5/1000" sounds small, but what does it mean in terms of the piston itself?

Colin: I didn't realize you changed out the gaskets twice. So was that in addition to when the dealer worked on it?

Ken

tcasulli · June 2003

4 yrs old, about 44K miles.
discovered a burning smell in the car - like burnt rubber. though it was a belt problem.
no sign of low oil 3k miles after the last change.

looked under the hood - looking for drips, stains and leaks - nothing.

ran the car pretty hard to see if I could get the smell again, and looked underneath. Sure enough smoke coming from where the exhaust system joins and head to the rear of the car)
oil must have been dripping on it - in very small amounts I assume.

warranty repair work was done - replaced a "cam-shaft seal or perhaps a crank-shaft seal" cant remember what exactly was done.

Jury is out on whether they got to the cause...

thanks to all who posted similar threads on this same issue - helped a lot.
TC

locke2c · June 2003

Ken,

I got a few bolts stuck when doing the cams and pulled both heads then.

The next time was only the left side, when it was blown and leaking like crazy. That's the time corresponding to the pics on my imagestation gallery...

-Colin

nygreg · June 2003

If anything, the compression will be slightly higher since the combustion chamber is technically smaller. If you figure the tranny flush, new timing belt and water pump would cost about $300, then doing both heads was ~$1800. I wonder what it would have cost if they didn't have to mill the heads and only would then need to replace the left side.

Greg

bluesubie · June 2003

nygreg · June 2003

"99.9% of consistent pulling problems are from alignment, tires and/or road conditions"

I guess the other 0.1% is from cell phone usage.

;-)

Greg

p0926 · June 2003

Greg- I was about to chuckle at that until I remembered that there's a vehicular homicide trial getting publicity in the local paper in which a guy ran head-on into a mini-van and killed a mother and wounded 4 kids (going home from a birthday party). And while there were several contributing factors, cel phone usage was one of them.

"Harris (the defendant) had been awake for more than 30 hours at the time of the wreck, having just moved his fiancée and their children from Baltimore. The defense attorney said Harris had one drink at a restaurant while waiting for a to-go order he'd called in for his family. On the way home he got lost and was dialing his cellphone and driving down an unfamiliar street when he crashed."

-Frank P.

francophile · June 2003

First a bit of background. Subies are extremely sensitive to things like alignment, tire pressure and road surfaces. Even a perfectly aligned Subie with perfectly even tire pressure can be felt to 'pull' or 'hunt' or 'tramline' depending on the road surface.

In your case with a new car I would insist on a full -front- and -rear- alignment. The dealer should do this at no cost to you. Also check tire pressures; they pump them up to 40+ lbs for shipping and a lot of times the dealer does not reduce the pressure prior to delivery to the customer. Finally, it is not unheard-of to have a bad tire.

But remember the basics; Subies are sensitive in this regard. If you are new to AWD cars in general and Subies in particular this may take a bit of acclimation on your part. If the dealer aligns the car and the tire pressures are right and you still feel 'pulling', check to see if it happens only on certain roads or surfaces. If so, and if it is a minor effect, welcome to Subie-land :-)

Cheers,
-wdb

kens · June 2003

Greg,

LOL. I was going to mention chassis problems, but you make a valid point.

Ken

fibber2 · June 2003

but by how much, I do not know. The math is kind of involved, not knowing the true volumes and shapes. From the bore, stroke, and stock compression ratio you can get an idea of the total squish volume. But the actual distribution of space is the sum of the cylindrical region, head roof shape and piston dish. Maybe he is up another quarter point or so. I warned John that he might have to go to midgrade fuel if the ECU could not handle the slightly higher propensity to knock. He did say that George did some decarbonization to gain back all possible volume.

I would guess that the machine shop bill probably ran a few hundred by itself. I would think that you would have to remove the valves & cam so that you could tank the heads to remove all residual metal after planing. That would also be the right time to check valve guide, etc., for wear before re-assembly.

And some of the assembly labor is x2 - the dealers probably only remove the offending head and only what has to come off to get to it.

Steve

jfl · June 2003

happily, my 2k legacy tracked straight when new and continues to do so after tire replacement and alignment at 40k miles. (now @ 68k.)

jim

jfl · June 2003

Stock is:
Bore: 3.917"
Stroke: 3.110"
(pi x r squared x stroke)="volume one cylinder"

Compression ratio: 10.0

Assume compressed volume is one tenth of "volume one cylinder"

Final volume reduced by 0.005" = 0.06 cu in

New Compression ratio: 10.16

They can bring it back to normal w/ a thicker head gasket...

Jim

fibber2 · June 2003

0.16 point vs 0.25 points on the compression increase.... I worst-cased it owing to the unusual shape of the squish area. Your math assumes uniform diameter and would be true if the head was a flat plate. But being peaked, the .005" reduction at the widest point in the assembly magnifies the volume reduction a bit. Think of the squish area as somewhat cone shaped rather than a cylinder.

OK, I will crawl back under my rock now.... ;-)

Someone on i-club did say that the new gasket was 4 layers vs. the original 3 layers, and was thicker. So the net may be virtually identical to a stock motor.

Steve

nippononly · June 2003

kind of stories, blaming cell phone usage when the fact that the man had been awake for 30 hours probably had a lot to do with it too!

I find it is a good idea to get an alignment with every new set of tires, or at least every other set depending on the mileage you get from them, as the $75 for the alignment will pay you back in the extra wear you will get from the tires, not to mention giving you a better drive in the meantime.

p0926 · June 2003

Well as I said, there were multiple factors:

a. He'd been awake for 30 hours so his reactions were no doubt slowed
b. He'd had at least one drink, which further slowed his reactions and impaired his judgment
c. He was driving in unfamiliar surroundings
d. It was dark
e. He was talking on his cel phone

Except for the fact that he was talking on his cel phone, I would have readily believed that he had simply fallen asleep at the wheel. However, the cel phone pretty much rules that out. Given that his car wasn't out of control, what other logical explanation is there for running head-on into another vehicle?

-Frank P.

ateixeira · June 2003

You forgot the main factor - he's an EEJIT for doing all those things in the first place.

-juice

fibber2 · June 2003

My momma din't raise no eejits... Creep Show??

Steve

nygreg · June 2003

Don't want to start a new thread here, but, I believe it is a matter of concentration priority. You can talk on the phone and drive as long as your attention is on driving. "Drives" my wife crazy, because sometimes she has to tell me something twice since using the phone is always second to me driving the car. Not true for all.

Greg

ballistic · June 2003

"Don't want to start a new thread here, but, I believe it is a matter of concentration priority. You can talk on the phone and drive as long as your attention is on driving."

Well, depending on the driver's skill and experience. Zillions of relatively inexperienced teenage drivers have cellphones, and most of them THINK they're already great drivers - but they clearly are not yet. Their chronic overconfidence leads them to THINK that they can drive 1-handed, talk on the cellphone, yak with passengers, and listen to rap at 150dB, and do it all without endangering anyone. No way, Jose.

As for the guy these messages are about, he may technically not have been asleep, but trying to drive and use a cellphone after 30 hours without sleep is not conducive to concentrating on anything.

jfl · June 2003

Steve, I think we have too much time on our hands...
Jim

retnav · June 2003

The cell phone accident raises a whole host of nasty problems. Here we are driving nicely engineered cars which for the most part makes driving a pleasure, but within an instant you can be killed because of somone's thoughtlessness.
        There is a recent California study which reports that of a large number of inattention to driving accidents in that state only ten percent were attributed to cell phone use. This would make it seem that cell phone usage is not as dangerous as some would make out. Nevertheless, I have watched drivers use these phones when I have been a passenger and I contend you can't dial a phone and drive -----at least not safely.
          My wife and I both have cell phones and I always pull over and stop before using the phone.
          Our accident driver ended up killing a lady and injuring the other occupants of her car. I hope he gets 30 years to life, but I'll bet he doesn't, and all the care we try to take in maintaining these Subarus ends up just being the luck of the draw.

hondafriek · June 2003

Had a close call today, the oil line broke to my auxillary oil pressure gauge, I noticed a grey haze behind me on the interstate, but thought nothing of it.

It was only when we slowed to exit on an offramp that It registered that the haze was from the Titan because of oil getting on the hot exhaust.

I lost over 2 Quarts of oil by the time we stopped, still had oil pressure so no damage but it could have been so easily a major repair.

Cheers Pat.

locke2c · June 2003

whew, close call. what type of line broke? braided steel usually doesn't...

-Colin

c_hunter · June 2003

That was a close one, Pat! And here you probably thought you were doing a good thing by installing an oil pressure gauge... and it damn near cost you an engine!

Craig

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