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Comments
Can y'all take a look at my pic and give me a diagnosis?
leaky photo
I haven't parked the Outback in the garage for 3 months (thanks to the table saw taking up half the space) so I haven't noticed any oil leaks either, until I was changing the oil yesterday and saw what looks like the seal weeping a bit.
Steve, just a visiting host here
The car has been at the dealer for 3 weeks while they are trying to figure out what is going on with it. They have even brought in the factory tech and a number of engineers who have take the computer readouts back with them to try and find a solution. They have replaced the entire throttle mechanism, a whole host of sensors and harnesses with no luck at all.
So now, a brand spanking new ECU or "brain" is being installed today.They apparently hooked up an auxiliary ground wire to the old ECU and the car ran perfectly so they think the ECU's ground was faulty which should be repaired by replacing it completely.
Any thoughts? I know that we had originally suspected the ECU as the root of all evil in this case. I hope they've figured it out because I have forgotten what the car looks like after 3 weeks. Although, they did hook me up with a peppy little Forester Sport to cruise around in.
I also noticed, from the photo, that there appears to be some coolant residue on the bottom of the water pump. Is your thermostat housing gasket leaking? I ask that because there is also a weep hole on the bottom of the water pump that indicates failure of the bearing seals in the water pump. If it is the weep hole leaking the coolant, you should DEFINITELY replace the water pump when you are in there to fix the oil leak.
At this point, the oil leak looks to be just starting, but it will get worse. As you will have to dig into the engine all the way to the timing belt, plan to replace the belt while you are there.
-Wes-
Enjoy your spruce grouse Thanksgiving dinner. :shades:
They reinstalled the old ECU, rigged an auxilary ground and the car ran fine.
Was SoA referring to a fault with the wiring harness to the ECU?
-Dave
I’ve been trying to resolve this w/dealer and the possible suspect is the control arm. They replaced the bushing and made some adjustments that have reduced the noise but it’s still there. After picking up the car all symptoms were gone for a day or two but now reappeared to some extent. One thing I now hear is a rattling noise coming from the center counsel when going over rough pavement so it seems the suspension has changed with the adjustments. I’m hoping they will replace the control arm and put everything back to original specs to see if the problem is solved. If you have any experience with this type of problem please let me know to expedite the repair of my car. Thanks!!
At that mileage I doubt it would be worth rebuilding that engine, so I would start looking for a salvage wreck.
And they come with a warranty.
It'll probably be cheaper that route.
Basically what you don't want is a block that has overheated and warped. You want a true, flat surface so the head gasket seals properly.
Ask if they offer a warranty.
I will start from the bottom up. Repair manuals: A Haynes manual will serve you well. It does a very good job covering anything you would likely want to attempt, including a complete engine overhaul.
As for valve damage, which engine does the 2000 Forester have? Single or double overhead cam? If it is the double overhead cam, it is possible that there was valve interference, but unless the belt came off, it is highly unlikely. The valve interference comes from the intake and exhaust valves contacting each other, not from the piston contacting the valves. If there is valve damage, you should be able to hear ticking or crunching noises that did not previously exist. If the car is just missing, stumbling, etc., it is entirely possible that the belt was simply not aligned properly. It is an extremely simple task to actually check/correct this, but is a good 45 minutes to an hour worth of work to dig all the way back into the the timing belt in order to do so. As a general rule, it is always better to double-check the alignment before buttoning the car back up. One can even start the car for a few revolutions to check it in action before closing things up; keep it brief, though, to avoid engine hot-spotting! The only things that need to be removed for the timing belt are the accessories (power steering, alternator, A/C) and the radiator/fans. Easy, but time consuming.
Good luck with it. Were I to still have my beloved '96 Outback, I would have real close to the same mileage as your Forester. With care, they are great cars.
-Wes-
You obviously know your way around an engine, so do not think for one moment that the Subaru engine is "more complicated." Strip all the extras away and you still have a mechanical engine. I have a summary of the head gasket replacement I did on my '96 Outback in Sept '05 on the web, I think. I have not updated that site in almost a year now. Just search "Theis 1996 Subaru" and scroll to the bottom of the linked page, if it comes up.
Is it normal? How could I fix it?
Thanks
I have a DOHC. I have an oil smell when I stop at traffic signals that did not exist before. It dissappears when the car is in motion. I checked the mileage and am getting approx. 20 mpg. I remembered an old test for a bad cylinder. Pull one spark plug wire at a time and see if the engine still misses. On the Forester, I would have to start the car each time.
Once I find the right avenue for the manuals. I'll get started. Thanks
Complicated may have been the wrong term. More involved may be appropriate. My 85 Laser was easier to work on. The plugs stared me in the face when I opened the hood. In about four hours I could have the head assembly off. On the Forester I could only get to one plug with out taking anything else apart. Plus back then I have a 91 Sentra as a primary car so I had time to work on the Laser. The Forester is my on and only so any work would have to be done in a day.
I will take a look at your site. Hey, is the Forester engine used in any other models from Subaru? Thanks
Are you sure it's oil you are smelling? Can you see it coming out the tailpipe? My guess is that it might be grease from the CV joint hitting the hot exhaust pipe.
-mike
Might be worth checking that the oil level is not too high. I had similar problems when servicing garage overfilled the sump on my 99 Outback. Erratic performance, odd smells and dramatically reduced fuel economy as the mmajor moving parts were operating in oil bath rather than splashed or sprayed oil.
Cheers
Graham
Frankly... this blows.
Best wishes, as you certainly deserve better!
You can pull the heads with the engine in the car. The clearance between the engine and the frame certainly leaves much to be desired, but you already know that from accessing the spark plugs! If I remember right, always needed to remove the air cleaner housing, washer bottle, and battery when changing plugs in the '96. It had the same engine as your 2000 Forester (2.5L DOHC).
Also, when you first dig in to it, pull the timing cover off and check to ensure all the cam sprockets are lined up appropriately. If there is one off by a tooth or two, that could be causing your fit.
As for the oil smell, something is (or was) dripping on your exhaust. If it is currently dripping, you should be able to trace the leak back to origin from under the car. The most likely sources include valve (head) cover gaskets, camshaft seals, or front crankshaft seal. Otherwise, it is likely due to insufficient cleaning of the external components after the work was performed on the vehicle. If so, the smell will lessen, but it takes a while to burn off all the residue. You can smell it while stopped because there is no wind to keep it from wafting straight up to the cabin's air intake.
Phil
Looks like you'll need to go the lemon route.
Contact SOA CDS and open up a case file. They probably already have one.
An '08 Outback XT would be a good exchange.... maybe have a free In-Dash Nav thrown in
-Dave
What is CDS? And are you saying they will give me another car in exchange? Why?
I have the 2000 shop manuals (half of them) for the Subaru Legacy and Outback. I don't think they're very specific.
Given a choice, I'd go for a Haynes manual. Even if it's a different year, what you're doing on the engine won't change. I think the Haynes step-by-step instructions are the best.
You've got my prayers.
Jim
Depending on what you find when you get in there, it might just be a timing issue. If so, that is a problem left there by the shop that performed the work. A good faith "discount" would be in order from that shop, I would think. The good part is that you HAVE to open up the timing covers to get to the heads anyway, so you will discover if the timing is the problem long before you crack the engine itself open.
If the shop manuals do not have photograph-supported step-by-step, Haynes will do you well. This is especially so if you are going to have a shop seat new valves for you.
I know exactly how you feel regarding finances; time of year is somewhat less significant for me though, as I feel no holiday-relegated obligation in the gift-giving department. Ah, life. Gotta love it!
Wishing you the best,
-Wes-
What do you think about the numbers I compiled from my last two fillup. 210.3 miles on 8.568 gallons of regular yields an average of 24.5448 mpg next fillup 11.844 gallons after traveling 296.6 miles resulted in a 25.0422 mpg rating. The combined fuel economy number was 24.83 mpg. The problem that I have doesn't seem to be that bad at all. Prior to the 8th of November (date the pulley went bad) I was getting 25-26 mpg. I don't know what this is telling me. But the first thing I am going to check and soon is the compression. I might just be off a tooth. What does it look like to you? Thursday (it will be in the mid 50s), I am going to checking the timing before I do the compression test. I downloaded a PDF version of the service manual, it reminds me of the manuals I had for my Laser. I am ready to get to it.
1. fuel mileage (what kind of mileage does the 5 speed auto offer?)
2. turbo "stutter" (apparently intermittant, and something Subaru seems to have trouble fixing)
3. Low end torque (when does the engine actually begin to make power).
4. Seat comfort (how do people fare with long trips in this vehicle).
5. spin out (the outbacks don't have the new double wishbone rear the Imprezas do).
FYI I am also considering an Impreza WRX (good: better performance and smaller size, bad: less comfortable seat, 4 speed auto trans).
And no I'm not a wild and crazy driver, but have to deal with rain, ice, and lots of fog.
Off the line, the car is quick while in 'sport sharp' and about average in the lower settings when the turbo-lag is a more noticeable
The seats are super comfy. My wife and I drive to Mammoth (about 300miles each way) a few times a month and we're comfy the whole way, my wife absolutely loves the heated seats as well.
As long as you're not planning to rally the car, I doubt you'd have any issues with spin out. The car's dynamic control feature is top notch. There is a sense of price you feel while you cruise past all the lifted trucks and high-end SUV's that can't handle slick streets. My car has been awesome on Mammoth's snow blanketed streets. I've even driven it in 6+inches without any problems.
Hopefully this helps. The WRX is a fun car to drive but if you're looking for something a little classier, with some extra room and a comfy ride, the Outback XT might be your dawg.
Take care dude.
Does anyone know if the 2000 Forester's DOHC still used hydraulic lifters? If so, maybe the ticking noise is due to a lifter rather than valve.
At this point, starting with the compression test is a good plan of action. If you do get deeper than that, you come across things in the order you need to check them, so you should not end up deeper than you need to go (timing belt, then the valve covers to expose the lifters & camshafts, then removal of the heads themselves to expose valves).
1. Mileage on today's Subarus isn't worth a damn. They might as well be made in Detroit. (I had a 1987 Subaru wagon that clocked a consistent 30mpg city, and 32 mpg highway, for 465,000 miles before I reluctantly retired it.) My 2006 Subaru is lucky to make 25 mpg under the exact same conditions.)
2. Turbo systems on small engines are an additional complication. Any benefit(?) of short-duration power will be offset by reduced mileage, hotter cylinder temps and increased wear and tear. Toss in the additional sensors and decision-table programming, and its not a good thing, financially. Suggestion: Let someone else be the beta tester. Buy one only after the fix is known; and applied. Maybe in another ten years.
3. Every engine has an associated 'torque curve' published. Contact Subaru of America for your particular model of interest. Keep the rpm's within 70% of peak torque, and you will maximize your benefits. (I'm assuming a standard transmission, and a driver who can read a tachometer. Otherwise, let the automatic handle it.)
4. Long-term driving and seat comfort: I can't speak to that one except by my own cars. The old and the new have made long-haul trips across the country, and I was happy with them both. (I tend to stop and walk around a bit after about every two hour's worth of driving, on all-day hauls.)
5. Spin-out: The AWD system will keep this to a minimum. However, if you do break traction, the AWD will go bananas attempting to recover. Compound this situation with the added (over-steer) input of a frantic driver attempting to counter-steer, and the ABS being applied (equally frantically), and you'll *never* regain control before you hit something! (Don't ask how I know this...) In retrospect, your best bet is to let go of the steering wheel, hit the brakes solid, and pray.
Ice and snow are merely the slow-motion version of driving the western deserts at speed. At speed, I'd guess the traction loss is about the same.
Gaucho
As stated above, then I can dig deeper. Compression test to find the suspect cylinder and so forth.
It is just so interesting about the economy. I check my fuel receipts for the last two months before the 8th of November and I average 26.09mpg. Subaru really built a good engine if you only take a 1.26 mpg hit with a bad valve.
In 1987 your Subaru wagon weighed significantly less, had almost no safety features, had 90hp or 115hp and was NOT AWD. It was FWD with part-time 4wd at best. So let's compare apples to apples.
2. Turbo systems on small engines are an additional complication. Any benefit(?) of short-duration power will be offset by reduced mileage, hotter cylinder temps and increased wear and tear. Toss in the additional sensors and decision-table programming, and its not a good thing, financially. Suggestion: Let someone else be the beta tester. Buy one only after the fix is known; and applied. Maybe in another ten years.
I'm not sure I follow. I road race a completely stock 1994 Legacy Turbo with 150k street miles and about 10-15k track miles. We are talking at or near redline for 1hr+ sessions. I also track my 05 LGT Wagon which has a turbo and neither has blown up or had decreased life spans (which on most cars is about 150-175k miles these days) Subaru has been making turbo cars for a long time, so it's not like you are a beta tester in any size shape or form.
5. Spin-out: The AWD system will keep this to a minimum. However, if you do break traction, the AWD will go bananas attempting to recover. Compound this situation with the added (over-steer) input of a frantic driver attempting to counter-steer, and the ABS being applied (equally frantically), and you'll *never* regain control before you hit something! (Don't ask how I know this...) In retrospect, your best bet is to let go of the steering wheel, hit the brakes solid, and pray.
Again, you are driving this car like it's the 70s and 80s. In today's world, with VDC, Traction Control and ABS, if you simply apply the brakes or gas and steer where you want to go, the AWD system will apply the power to the wheels that grip. Perhaps a snow/low traction driving course with ABS/AWD/TractionControl cars is in order?
Overall the turbo won't kill your milage if you don't drive it hard all the time. I get consistently 19mpg with my LGT in the city/commuting but I'm running wider, stickier tires than stock, and I push it through the corners and on/off ramps constantly. When I had normal tires I was getting 23mpg in city/commute and 26-27 at 75 on the highway.
-mike
I respectfully disagree.
Fresh snow/ice here, and I just took my almost 16-year old son out for a little driving practice. Smooth & gentle applications of both accelerator and brake, steering through a problem with the ABS engaged (you CAN steer with the ABS in full-on mode), and pointing the front wheels in the direction you want to go with a smooth gentle application of power... all those attributes certainly beat the 'let go of the steering wheel' mentality. At least that's what I'm trying to teach my son.
Cheers!
Paul
In racing, I've had an "off" on more occasions than I care to remember which puts you from very sticky asphalt to grass/dirt/snow/mud/etc and on both my 1994 Legacy Race car as well as my 2005 LGT Wagon, lightly applying power allowed me to grip and continue in the direction of movement and gently come back on track w/o a problem. In fact recently, a fellow instructor in a camaro following me when I went off saw it was me with AWD and left me enough room to come back ontrack, he talked to me afterward saying I knew you'd come right back on track cause you have the AWD and kept your foot in it.
-mike
Forecast here calls for up to 6 inches of snow through tomorrow, so we'll probably have more opportunities for practice. He's done with driver's ed, has had lots of fair-weather practice, but needs the work on the slippery.
Cheers!
Paul
On my MTs (both my LGT and the Race car) while the power won't adjust to an individual wheel it will move it front to back based on traction.
-mike