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Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

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Comments

  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Agree that the horizontal positioning of the valve cover gaskets are likely to promote leaks, but I would also think that a properly operating PCV valve 'should' prevent a dangerous pressurization of the crankcase. If you are having issues with leakage, I would also change the valve (they can stick and fail) at the same time as cover gaskets. This may help to ensure that they don't become a point of failure again, or as GCB said, result in the blowout of the next weak link in the system.
  • aathertonaatherton Member Posts: 617
    edited February 2011
    "... EJ25 series II engines are famous for external coolant leakage... from a scrubbed gasket seal (open deck block creep)."

    The movement of the free cylinder tops in the open deck, like the wine glass here, is what does the scrubbing of the gasket :
    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=87c_1186734605

    As explained here:
    http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f88/2006-head-gaskets-problem-64464/inde- - - x2.html#post716946

    On the turbo and diesel engines, Subaru eliminated the problem by bracing the cylinder tops in a semi-closed deck. But this required expensive single-use sand-casts.

    So for the new 2011 engine, Subaru retained the open deck made with economical reusable die-casting, but eliminated the leak problem by not allowing the block coolant to go to the cylinder head. The cylinder head is a separate closed casting with its own coolant supply. Instead of sealing the thin rim of a cylinder, the head gasket now seals the large flat underside of the head casting.
  • bayarea_s40bayarea_s40 Member Posts: 19
    My 2007 Forester Sports XT came with a Homelink mirror, with buttons and compass, and it worked fine. A few months ago the most-used button dropped off. It's small, black, and we haven't found it. It seems like, if I could get a replacement button, it would snap right in. I'm willing to pay $10-$30 for it.

    BUT NO! I contacted Homelink by email, and they said they don't deal with end-users, I should work through Subaru. At my next service appt I asked the Service Manager to find a solution. He's a good guy and took the question all the way to Subaru Corporate. The answer was that Subaru doesn't repair these 3rd-party units, and I would have to purchase a whole new unit. Yeah, right.

    Occasionally I see Homelink mirrors available on eBay, or owners selling them on other auto sites. But I would still be paying $100+ for whole units, then have to hope it is the same Homelink model as mine.

    This Forester has over 100,000 miles, and I've managed to keep it's looking good cosmetically. Now I have a prominent cabin instrument that looks bad, apparently with no easy, inexpensive remedy.

    Does anyone have any suggestion? I've given Homelink's parent company, Johnson Controls, a bad review on Yelp, but that doesn't solve my problem.
    Anyone have any suggestions
  • bruxausbruxaus Member Posts: 2
  • bruxausbruxaus Member Posts: 2
    I recently changed out the alternator on my legacy. I am pretty sure this has nothing to do with the temperature on my car, so I will say that coincidentally my car started overheating on the same day. I have checked the belts and all are running smooth. Both fans are going. I thought it might be a thermostat problem since my top hose was hot, but the bottom hose containing the thermostat was not. I switched that out and refilled my radiator and reservoir. I was hoping that would fix it, but it did not. Two years ago I had the HG blow out and had it professionally redone, replacing several polis in the process. I cannot find a leak anywhere accept right below the reservoir and I think that is just blowing off excess, very minor at best.
    The only other thing I can think of is a temperature gauge malfunction, but the car is very hot so I guess that wouldn't matter. One thing I thought of was after I changed the alternator, I did go to a cleaning station and used the engine cleaner and power washer, maybe I knocked something loose. I don't see any loose connections though.
    Any thoughts, I am stumped?
  • joe_in_pajoe_in_pa Member Posts: 7
    Oil leaking from what I can see, the head gaskets. I also have the smell of burnt oil. I pulled the bottom plastic cover off and found oil looks like it has been dripping on the exhaust on both sides of the engine, more on the left side, thus the smell. I cleaned off the backside of the engine where all the oil was and ran the car. Could see an oil drop on the area just cleaned at the back end of engine block. It is not valve covers leaking as noted in other posts I have read. Coolant levels have been steady. I have had to add oil though.
    Question 1 Is this a head gasket problem?
    Question 2 Is Subaru finally acknowledging they have a problem?
    Question 3 Who do I contact at Subaru?

    I am not a happy camper. The car only has 72K miles and I take very good care of it. Head gasket problems was the reason I stopped buying Chrysler products. My Toyotas have never given me a days trouble. I also had a major A/C problem this past summer which, thank goodness, I was able to repair myself, so Subaru is not on my good friends list right now.
  • pathtomaxpathtomax Member Posts: 215
    Wow, you are all great and very helpful!

    First of all, I am not a mechanic at any level...so I would need a lot of information if you need me to add coolant or cleaners. Plus, I am in 5 degree NH so probably not going to get under the engine anytime soon.
    I wish you all lived near me to check it out!

    First, the car has smoked lightly TWICE since early December. Just a trickle of smoke with normal temp gauge readings. NEVER overheated!!! The temp gauge went up *slightly* one day last week after stop, start, go, start again driving. I just turned up the heat again and all was good.

    There is NO VISIBLE LEAKING of any kind. They told me that there will be no leaking as it only drips when the car is warm and then runs along the car.

    I drove the car for about 150 highway miles on Wednesday and the temp gauge was perfect and the car ran fine. No smoking at all. No sweat smell.

    Honestly, I just accepted a new job and will be working from home with limited traveling. My partner has a Lexus RX and all our long trips are in that car. I may just let it go for the time being. Just get my normal oil changes , brakes, etc.
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    edited February 2011
    This response is for you and Joey in PA. Plastic covers. I wonder if the cover has warped. They also use just a silicone gasket! I am more of an advocate for paper gaskets coated with a thin coating of silicone. There is a cover on the rear of the engine that looks like a rear main leak when it acts up. It has a history of warping. So I would not be surprised if the plastic has warped! Interesting enough, the replacement cover is beer can material! Since I am not sure which engine you are dealing with, I can only question those covers if they might be warped. If I understand correctly they are on the underside of the engine?

    Pathomax, that is correct. The leaking will be more noticable after the car has been running. Look for where the oil may be running onto exhaust system parts and then look up! Yes, this is an under car ordeal. All it has to do is drip right down and hit that pipe before it hits the road. After a trip, when you get home, park the car and leave engine running either on ramps or hill. Look underneath and try to find leak. Make sure you do this procedure safely. Get repair manual to learn that. Another old trick is to put cardboard under the car and see where it drips while parked. Once you find the excess oil, clean it off with engine cleaner. Wal-Mart has best price. Get the Gunk, the Wal-Mart brand has a nasty smell to it. If you are running synthetic oil, it will come out more easily! Try a blend. We consider that cleaner a normal maintenance item and do it about every 10K miles on all engine makes.

    On a final note, Brother in MO is not buying any more new Subies. New car will most likely be a Toy. Meanwhile, he is running these till a motor can no longer be rebuilt, replace or whatever. says a lot about the 94, 97 and 03 unit designs. This forum has raised some questions on our end about reliabilty.

    As for distance and questions, brother uses a digitial camera with high resolution to show me what he is talking about. I also have him keep a Consumer grade Haynes or Chilton's repair manual which explains a lot to newbies who own cars. Exactly how I learned this trade! A wrench turning nerd!

    Yes, you will seeing higher temps on your gauge with stop and go driving. That is because of a lack of airflow thur the radiator. Like I tell my students at church, good ears, eyes and communication with someone who knows something cuts your costs down a lot. No stupid questions.

    One recent question was about smelling gas, then not. We checked out the car, it passed. I told him to keep nose going, but I think he smelled someone elses car! So far, that appears to be the case. Sure beats blowing up!
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    No offense but having dealt with Subarus for 10+ years, raced them, and daily driven them, I can say that the gauge should NOT fluxuate. The operating temp of the Subaru engine is above the opening temp of the thermostat and the only time the needle should move is if there is an issue of some sort with the engine or the cooling system.

    Each gauge may be a little different but it should be in the same spot on your car once it is at operating temps. The only time I would say it *might* be different is if you were to drive in say sub-zero temps but even that is questionable.

    The reason is that the gauge does not work linearly. It is a glorified idiot light on the subarus, where the middle where it rests is a representation of a RANGE of temps that is acceptable. Same is true on my CTSV, on the needle it goes to center and doesn't move. However my digital temp gauge on that car moves from 180-230 degrees.

    -mike
    Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
  • aathertonaatherton Member Posts: 617
    edited February 2011
    "... Plastic covers. I wonder if the cover has warped. They also use just a silicone gasket! I am more of an advocate for paper gaskets coated with a thin coating of silicone. There is a cover on the rear of the engine that looks like a rear main leak when it acts up.... If I understand correctly they are on the underside of the engine? "

    I think the poster is referring to the plastic undertray under the engine that he removed to see the HG leaks. He is probably not referring to the plastic oil separator plate in the PCV system that is buried between the engine and the transmission and that can appear like a rear main seal leak and only leaks oil onto a clutch.

    "... you will seeing higher temps on your gauge with stop and go driving."

    You will only see that if you have a digital ScanGauge plugged into the OBDI port, like:
    http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/vintagefortytwo/Forester/Forester%20ScanG- - - auge/4SGcoverday.jpg

    The ScanGauge shows that the needle gauge is an idiot gauge. The needle stays level and normal from 150F up until the normal range is exceeded. The normal range must go pretty high. I have seen 210 FWT (Fahrenheit Water Temp) displayed on my ScanGauge while idling in traffic at 100F ambient with the AC on, before the fans kick in. But I have never seen the needle rise.
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Agree. I have a laptop based OBD-II tool (AutoEnginuity), that allows you to select and datalog any 6 of 20+ readouts simultaneously. You can see when the temp passes around 135 F and the fuel system switches from open (map) to closed loop (oxygen sensor), and all other sorts of fun things! The first big plateau is around 170 (probably when my thermostat begins to open), with a high of 210-215 F not uncommon. Hardly any differentiation in the position of the dash gauge in this range.
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    Thank you for the compliments of my posts being well read! I see I left a word or two out even after proof reading. You are correct. I meant the oil separator plate on the back of the engine. Memory does not always serve me well when it comes to what parts are called! That happens when the snow stick to your hair all the time.....lol

    As for temp gauges most are just that idiot gauges. I will add that I have seen a few rare OEM cases out there that actually moved! One of them on our 89 Mazda 323! So I do not discount when someone appears to have a sensitive gauge and complains about running hot. Your points should also help put our fellow poster in NH concerns to rest about overheating. On the other hand, as I point out to my fleet people, you see that gauge higher than normal, investigate! Call me! And....they do!

    So far, normal maintenance and excellent diagnosis skills have kept me out of buying OBD II equipment. How do you like that AutoEnginuity? I have been considering The Auto Tap version market equivalent. Problem is, Subaru is not listed as being compatible last time I looked. Now we have a growing Toy fleet to consider as well. We look for auto equipment that has good electronics to buy up front to help avoid future trouble.
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    I become amused when I hear the government mandates adding "new safety equipment." I can see the need in adverse weather conditions like snow. But I always tell people, the best piece of any safety equipment is right between your ears! The law of physics will only forgive so much!

    Best example I can think of is the story of a nurse who bought a new Chrysler from my brother only to return for another after discovering the traction control would not bail her out of a sudden 90 degree turn at 50 mph on a gravel road!

    In other words, there are a lot of "I dots" aka idiots out on the road and no government mandate will get rid of them! Avoidance is the best policy! Sometimes, we are our own worst enemy! I always remind myself to slow down think about what I am doing before I become too unlady like! It is cheaper and takes less time to repair. Like an old mechanic, probably deceased by now, told me, " It takes a split second to screw it up and eternity to repair it." It is even more of a pain when it is my stupidity that did it and I have to fix it!

    Yup, that best piece of safety equipment has bailed me out of some crazy stuff.....and it is not even government mandated. Maybe it should be?!?!LOL
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    edited February 2011
    I bought the AutoEnginuity tool several years back because it was feature-rich, and the only laptop system at the time that also supported the (then new) CAN interface. It was a system to grow with, without added expense or retrofits.

    Performance has been OK, mainly limited by my Subi's older ISO interface, which is simply slow. Faster laptops help with multistream data, but the delivery from the interface can be chunky. I suspect that CAN would probably be much better. Also, my early unit had a serial interface, and I am running it thru a serial to USB converter. Direct to USB might be better.

    The Auto Tap does look interesting, and might be better. In some of their 'white papers', they talk about monitoring things like tranny temp, something I don't see available on A.E.

    The OBD-II standard is positively ancient (over 15 years), and automakers have added hundreds of proprietary codes each, some thru other ports. You can get additional interface modules with some of these scan tools to read these (like ABS / Stability Control, advanced tranny functions, etc.).

    Two years back I attended an auto electronics industry panel discussion where some of the proposed features of OBD-III was discussed. Telematics and other new technologies will change everything! Good luck with diagnosing a performance issue by ear without the right tools in the future.
  • joe_in_pajoe_in_pa Member Posts: 7
    04 Forester with 72K miles leaking oil.

    Dealer confirmed oil leak and it is the head gaskets. $1100 repair estimate. Service manager told me that if he had service records that Subaru might help with some of the cost. Well the only work done at the dealer was tranny service. I do the other work on my own. I did add the Subaru "magic elixer" into the cooling system whenever I did a coolant changes. I have no or little records so I guess I am screwed.

    My problem is that this is an oil leak due to defective head gaskets, not a coolant leak. The "magic elixer" in the coolant would have nothing to do with this. It is plain head gasket failure and no matter how much Subaru recommened crap you add to the coolant, it was piss poor design that caused this problem and Subaru should step up and admit it. All Subaru has to do is read this forum to understand the scope of this head gasket issue. If there is a class action lawsuit against Subaru, I will join it.

    This is my second Subaru and I was hoping that this one would give me as many problems as my first one, which was none! This will be my last Subaru. Keep listening to the bean counters Subaru and keep "cheapening" things up, and you will be joining GM and Chrysler whose reputation for making junk is well known.
  • phil2000phil2000 Member Posts: 195
    I did it.

    I am now the proud owner of a 2011 Outback. Traded-in the Saturn and kept the Forester. Not sure when I will replace the engine in it.

    The Outback is like a luxury car for me. It's fantastic.
  • aathertonaatherton Member Posts: 617
    edited February 2011
    "04 Forester with 72K miles leaking oil. Dealer confirmed oil leak and it is the head gaskets. $1100 repair estimate... My problem is that this is an oil leak due to defective head gaskets, not a coolant leak. The "magic elixer" in the coolant would have nothing to do with this. It is plain head gasket failure and no matter how much Subaru recommened crap you add to the coolant, it was piss poor design that caused this problem..."

    The head gasket is not defective. When it fails, the leak can be either oil, coolant or both. And the coolant conditioner is supposed to minimize both kinds of leaks.

    The defect is in the open deck design of the cylinder block:
    http://www.grindstonemotorsports.com/tech/blockdesign.jpg
    The tops of the cylinders are not well braced, move slightly, rub on the gasket, eventually ruining its seal. The gasket sealing area around the top of a cylinder is little more than the rim of a glass. On one side of the rim is a cooling passage with coolant, and on the other side is a piston with oil. Sometimes the coolant leaks, sometimes the oil.

    The more braced semi-closed deck used on the DOHC turbo and diesel engines does not have this problem. But such a deck cannot be cast with reusable die casts, and must use expensive single use sand casts.

    Subaru solved the problem with the new 2011 engine by not having the coolant in the block to go through the gasket and into the head. The head has its own coolant supply:
    "Cooling has been optimized by using separate engine cooling circuitry for the block and the head..."
    http://www.fhi.co.jp/english/contents/pdf_en_60853.pdf
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Congratulations!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Congrats. :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Gotta compliment you...your posts on the subject are well written and summarized enough that I've bookmarked several of them.

    Kudos.
  • phil2000phil2000 Member Posts: 195
    I have read that for the first one thousand miles not to drive at a constant speed. Does that mean not to use cruise control at all? Can I set cruise at say 65 for ten miles, the up it 5mph for ten, down 10mph, up 15 mph and so forth? What does the varying do for me?
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,760
    My advice is to simply avoid the use of the cruise for that first 1,000 (they go by quickly, to which you can certainly attest!) unless you are in a hilly area where the hills will result in load variation on the engine even with the cruise engaged.

    The goal, so I have heard, is that the speed variation results in engine load variations, which helps to "seat" the cylinder rings, etc., so that the engine receives an optimal break-in. That (presumably?) results in less oil use and potentially longer engine life.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • aathertonaatherton Member Posts: 617
    "I have read that for the first one thousand miles not to drive at a constant speed. Does that mean not to use cruise control at all? Can I set cruise at say 65 for ten miles, the up it 5mph for ten, down 10mph, up 15 mph and so forth? What does the varying do for me?"

    Not only do not use cruise control, but do not hold a steady speed at all. On the contrary, the ideal is frequent accelerations and decelerations. And do some hard accelerations to 4,000 RPM, which I think is the limit the Owners Manual sets for the break in period.

    The varying is the essence of a break in for the engine. See my reply to Lone Ranger in the Forester forum:
    http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f113/break-technique-mpg-39420/#post4484- 31
  • phil2000phil2000 Member Posts: 195
    Giving up my cruise is like, asking a chain smoker to go cold turkey. Plus it keeps me from exceeding those numbers on the white signs on the highway. Thus avoiding flashing blue/red lights in my rear view mirror.

    My round trip commute to work is 76 miles. I drive 30 miles each way on the expressway. For the past two days in one direction, I pump the gas pedal. When traveling the reverse direction, I do cruise. For 10 miles, I do speed A, then B, then C. I have 204 miles on the car since I picked it up Wednesday. It will take me 10 days to get to that 1k mark.

    How much trouble am I in? It is tough to ride the gas pedal (acc/decc) and stay under the posted limit. Unless you guys are suggestion driving local streets to work.
  • joe_in_pajoe_in_pa Member Posts: 7
    Ok, I stand corrected, it is not faulty head gaskets but engine (head) design. Either way Subaru needs to step up to the plate and admit they screwed up.
  • aathertonaatherton Member Posts: 617
    edited February 2011
    "... I drive 30 miles each way on the expressway... in one direction, I pump the gas pedal. When traveling the reverse direction, I do cruise. For 10 miles, I do speed A, then B, then C... How much trouble am I in? ..."

    That is not an ideal break-in, but probably average, and better than some. You could improve it by not using the cruise control, and not holding the same speed for so long manually. Change speed up and down by 5 mph every mile or so. Or not.
    It really does not matter. Engines don't really need break-in to run fine and make it through their warranty period. Many a dealer trade has been taken off the lot with 0 miles and delivered on the Interstate to a distant city on cruise control.
    But a perfect break-in does help minimize oil consumption. If you really cared, and most people don't, you would stay off the Interstate for your commute during break-in. You would take city streets and 2-lane roads. Ideally, you would spend a weekend in vigorous driving on country roads, letting the curves and hills do the "varying" for you.
  • aathertonaatherton Member Posts: 617
    "... it is not faulty head gaskets but engine (head) design... Subaru needs to step up to the plate and admit they screwed up."

    Subaru has been doing that for many years. For long after the warranty period, Subaru has been sharing in the cost of head gasket replacements. But they do favor original owners, who had their cars serviced by dealers, or otherwise have records. Subaru has no obligation in the matter and is reciprocating the good will they received from the customer's loyalty to the dealer.

    Recently on another forum, someone was unhappy that Subaru was not going to share in their head gasket cost. They had bought their Forester 9 years ago off a used car dealer's lot, with 25K miles and had put another 50K on it without ever having gone to a dealer except to buy coolant conditioner.

    Subaru has admitted the shortcoming of the open deck design in this article:
    "The BOXER DIESEL adopts a semi-closed cylinder block deck to improve the rigidity around the head gaskets, following the precedent of the semi-closed type used in the Subaru EJ20 turbocharged gasoline engine."
    http://www.boxerdiesel.com/engineering/en/03.html
  • fendertweedfendertweed Member Posts: 98
    the Porsche factory drivers had a routine (not that our Subies are Porsches) involving high load full throttle driving and then lifting every time they went under a bridge, to create vacuum to suck oil past the piston rings & keep things lubed & vary load... lol (?)

    main break-in considerations seem to be not holding steady speeds for too long so I avoid cruise control during the break-in period and consciously vary speed ...
  • phil2000phil2000 Member Posts: 195
    Thanks for the advice. On the way to work today, I pumped the gas pedal all the way. I did about 65 mph, from time to time I would ease off and then tach up to 4K rpm and settle down to 67-70, then back to 65.

    I thought about local roads (I hate traffic lights), but since it is raining and three previous collision were attributed to the other guy I will wait for better weather. But for the sake of a good break-in, local roads here I come.

    Though on my Forester, I did not pay as much attention to proper break-in. It didn't have any noticable oil lose until about 250k after the idler pulley went. Search on "Bad Idle 2"
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Didn't they warranty those for 7/100? As long as you used the conditioner they provided.

    FWIW we have about 5 Subies in the family from that era and none had the gasket issue.
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    we have about 5 Subies in the family from that era and none had the gasket issue.

    Utterly amazing... statistically unlikely... but obviously possible. :surprise:
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    There is more to the failure rate variation than just the block design, although that is certainly the underlying cause.

    From some discussions with a local resident and former regional mgr, there were several running changes in head gasket design intended to better cope with the difference in coefficient of expansion between the material stack. There may have also been some changes in the flatness specification and surface finishing (machining) of the sealing surfaces along the way. When SOA extended the warranty, there were some VIN number exclusions within the 2000-2003 period and a hard cutoff after a certain point based on the belief that they had a handle on the situation.

    Unfortunately, neither the use of the conditioner or new gaskets at 15k miles on my '02 prevented a second failure at 62k miles. The kicker for me was that my VIN supposedly fell into the 'fixed by redesign' category, and I was technically not eligible for the extended HG warranty! Fortunately SOA heard my pleas and felt my pain, and was kind enough to do a courtesy repair with the car some 18 months beyond the normal powertrain warranty.

    Three of the guys in my department bought OBW's based on my recommendations. Two of them (both 2003) have had HG failures within the past year. So far, the 2004 is OK. Time will tell...
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,760
    Phil, I had a 2,200-mile drive ahead of me when I purchased my '10 Forester, which definitely made the thought of not using the CC daunting. For the first day or so I owned it, I was between Seattle and Prince George with good highways and many hills, so I was not very tempted to use the cruise. That ate up about 550 miles. After that, though, I used the cruise extensively save for a few stretches of fun country, including most of the Cassiar Highway.

    I changed the oil about a week after arriving home, with 2,500 miles on the car, and used 0-30 synthetic. So far, with 23,000 miles on the car now, it still doesn't use any noticeable amount. My first oil change, which saw about 11,500 miles on the oil, there was no discernible difference on the dipstick between start and finish. On this oil change (about 9,000 on it now), I can't say for sure because I had an oil filter come loose, which resulted in significant oil loss (about 1.5 quarts) and required make-up oil. However, I did not see any dipstick change before that and haven't seen any change since then.

    In short, be conscious about it, but don't fret over it. It's tough having a new car again, isn't it?! :P
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • phil2000phil2000 Member Posts: 195
    Everyone should have this problem of a new car {smile}.

    My 91' Sentra (229,000) and the 00' Forester (206,000) were great on the highway. Service tech's made notice of that.

    After my first free oil change, should I switch to synthetic?
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    After my first free oil change, should I switch to synthetic?

    Absolutely. Never look back.

    I advocate the use of premium filters such as a Purolator Pure 1, and full synthetic like Mobil1 or Syntec. However I don't see any value in the ultra-premium synthetics like AMSOil or Royal Purple. I do not dispute their technical superiority over Mobil1, but I dispute whether they add any meaningful value, considering how good Mobil1 already is and that your oil changes are driven by filter life, not synthetic oil life.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited February 2011
    I had the 98 Forester, which supposedly had the internal leaks. Sold it after 9 years sans any serious issues.

    My brother just totaled his 2004 Legacy. 123k miles trouble-free!

    Sis still has her 03 Forester. Only problem? A damaged tire sidewall.

    Dad's got his 01 Outback. My brother is driving that now that he's without any car, while he shops.

    Wifey's 09 Forester is also trouble-free for 2 years. That and my old Forester were both v1.0, too.

    Knock on wood!

    Edit: forgot our 2002 Legacy, and here's the funny part - I just got call from the guy who bought it from us last week. Uh-oh, gaskets, I thought. Nope - he wanted to know which shop installed the aftermarket moonroof (Adler & Mandell). So that's 9+ years old now.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I always dread reading these stories, but my '97 Outback seems ok.

    I think it's because I use dead dino and Fram filters in it. :P
  • phil2000phil2000 Member Posts: 195
    How often do you change the oil using a synthetic? I heard with Amsoil it is 25K?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They don't even give them the best care, basically following the if-it-ain't-broke rule.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,760
    edited February 2011
    Well, it depends on driving, etc., but even with Amsoil (yes, they have an oil - Signature Series - that they claim to go up to 35,000 or one year and their filter claims 25,000), I wouldn't generally go that long. I changed out my oil last year with just shy of 12,000 miles on it. I also had two oil analyses done (one at 7500 which is the mfg recommended interval and one at 11,930 when I changed it). At the first analysis, it was high on break-in metals and TBN was at 4. After the second analysis, the break-in metals remained nearly unchanged with the TBN dropping to 3. Even though it still has sufficient acid buffering, I felt it was a good time to change it to get those break-in metals out of there. I need to do another analysis, but I just haven't taken the time to pull the sample yet. If okay, I'll do another when I change this summer, then annually thereafter with the oil change.

    Unless you do an oil analysis to verify the oil's integrity, I don't recommend an interval longer than 10,000 on the initial synthetic fill and 15,000 thereafter.

    Depending, of course, on the oil you use! If you go with something like Mobil1 Extended, Amsoil Signature, or similar, the above would apply.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The problem is that I can change my own oil for less than what an analysis costs. About $15. Last I checked, the mail order analysis was running $22 or so. Plus postage.
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    With most cars it is not feasible to do an oil filter change without draining all the oil (or making a huge mess), so that's why the change interval has to be around 10k with a premium spin-on, or maybe 15k with a large-volume cartridge filter.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,760
    Very true, Steve - it all depends on how much you drive it!

    I put 15,000+ a year on my car. If I ran 3,000 or 3,500 mile changes five times a year, it would cost me more for the basic stuff. Plus, I'm not wasting the resources and I am not changing oil at -30F on the snow pack in my driveway!

    The mail-order analysis is up to $25. :(

    If I drove fewer miles, I would go with the most appropriate oil for that usage.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2011
    If I was using that Amsoil stuff, my '97 would be on its third oil change. :D

    There's only two roads out of town where I live too - I really don't know how you manage to mile them up so much. Of course, I actually hit a highway intersection in 20 or 30 miles. :shades:
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    How often do you change the oil using a synthetic? I heard with Amsoil it is 25K?

    We are an Amsoil dealer and carry Motul, Redline, Rotella, and Subaru. We have had several customers who used Mobil 1 in their subies and the UOA (Used Oil Analysis) on them have come back poor at best in Subies at least.

    As for 25k changes, we suggest that if you have a non-turbo subie and use Amsoil, with the Amsoil Filter, you can safely go 10k miles on a change, however make sure to check the oil every 1500 miles to make sure you haven't consumed any.

    On turbo cars we don't suggest going over 7500 miles with Amsoil & Amsoil Filter.

    Here is a link if you'd like to order AmsoilAmsoil as well as the application guide Application Guide

    -mike
    Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
  • joe_in_pajoe_in_pa Member Posts: 7
    edited February 2011
    I am the original owner of the car. I had transmission service done at the the dealer. The rest I can do myself. I used Mobil 1 and Pur-one filters and changed oil every 5000 miles. I have done this with every toyota and subaru vehicle I owned without any problems, until this one. I run my cars well into the 150K mile range before I even consider buying another car. If Subaru wants me to have the car serviced by the dealer to keep up the warranty or stand behind known problems later on down the line, they should state so when you buy it. I just cannot see spending money to have someone else do something I can do myself.
  • aathertonaatherton Member Posts: 617
    edited February 2011
    "... From some discussions with a local resident and former regional mgr, there were several running changes in head gasket design intended to better cope with the difference in coefficient of expansion between the material stack. There may have also been some changes in the flatness specification and surface finishing (machining) of the sealing surfaces along the way..."

    There was this change to the NA head gasket in 2010, says it can't be retrofitted to previous year engines, and is not applicable to the different new 2011 engine.
    http://allwheeldriveauto.com/subaru-changed-there-head-gasket-for-the-2010-25l/

    Larger gasket photo at:
    http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f66/head-gasket-design-changed-2010-n-mo- - dels-69170/#post766275

    Discussion of why the redesigned gasket only fits 2010:
    http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f66/head-gasket-design-changed-2010-n-mo- dels-69170/#post766541
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,199
    edited February 2011
    So... Amsoil recommends 7500 or 10K changes with full-synthetic?

    Wow... :surprise:

    That's the manufacturer-recommended service interval for most cars, using dino oil..

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  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Perfect! You just verified what I had been told back in 2004 about the revised HG:

    It is a single piece of steel with a gasket material bonded to it. This is the updated gasket used to correct the vehicles that fell under the WWP-99 campaign and is the gasket used in production of all of the N/A 2.5l EJ 2.5l from 2003 until 2007.

    Unfortunately, while those engines have held up better with the revised gasket, they still seem to be subject to a higher than expected failure rate.

    The cooling hole changes reminds me of a situation I faced back in the late 1970's with my old Mercury's 302 cid V8. Ford made running gasket changes, with different size and distribution of cooling holes. They were biased in size from one end to the other in an attempt to force more flow to one end to address a known hot spot issue. I used a punch to modify a non-conforming set. If that is all it would take to make the new 2010 multi-layer sandwich set work on the older cars, I'd say go for it.
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    Most cars with a spin-on filter aren't more than 7500 for standard duty or 5000 for severe usage.

    My Evo is 3750 miles severe and 5000 standard. I do 7500 and add about a half quart at the halfway point. 98k and not the slightest hint of a problem, running 21.5 psi. :)
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