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Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That stinks. Probably is the VC, then, given those symptoms.

    Wonder if Subaru will swap to the 950s as OE tires. They seem to overlap with the RE92s.

    BTW, the automatics had more CCAs, I guess because you can't push start them?

    -juice
  • hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    I was only quoting prices of the specials, I would never replace an OE battery with another OE, there are much better deals on the aftermarket for batteries, as well living where I do I always replace the battery with the biggest I can get in there.

    Cheers Pat.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I did too, Pat. In fact I had to modify the base slightly, but it fit. They didn't have the OE size in stock, mine's a tiny bit bigger.

    -juice
  • dixie31dixie31 Member Posts: 2
    Three months ago, I bought a demo model 2002 Subaru Outback LL Bean Edition wagon. Auto transmission, 20,000 miles.

    Had no problems until yesterday. On my way to work, in stop-and-go traffic on a congested metro-area bridge, my car completely STALLED without warning. The "check engine" and "brake" lights came on. I had no brakes, no power, and no steering, and it was very frightening.

    After about 20 very tense minutes waiting for help to arrive - worrying that someone was going to crash into me - a good samaritan restarted my car, and I drove it to a local Subaru dealer.

    They ran computer checks and test drove it, but could not find a problem. Wanting answers, I called the dealer who sold me the car, and the salesperson told me to bring the car to them for a second opinion. They also found nothing, and gave no explanation as to why this happened...

    I am worried that my car might stall again without notice. Has this happened to anyone else out there? Or does anyone know why my brand new car just died like that?

    (More info: Before stalling, my gas tank was 3/4 full, the weather was about 50 degrees and drizzling, radio and thermostat were on.)

    Also, I've had problems with the dealership. They are very unprofessional. Their financial/credit guy kept making passes at me when I was signing the paperwork to get my auto loan, and he did so again yesterday while I was waiting for the service dept to diagnose the problem with my car.

    I would complain to the manager, but he's a creep, too. Yesterday, right in front of me, he started cursing because he was frustrated by how long it was taking to negotiate a deal with another customer... "I gotta sell a f**king car today, God d*mn it!" is what he said. That is a completely unacceptable way to behave in front of customers.

    I am feeling like I might have made a mistake buying this car. I worry that I'm going to have mechanical problems with it, and will be at the mercy of the sexist, unprofessional people at the dealership, who I can't imagine will be helpful.

    Sorry for the long message, but I am very frustrated.
  • yellowbikedon1yellowbikedon1 Member Posts: 94
    Is there another Subaru dealer nearby? You might want someone else servicing your wagon from what you describe.

    How did the good samaritan start your wagon? This might give the service department a clue as to your problem.

    Good luck from an '01 Bean owner with NO problems!
  • idahodougidahodoug Member Posts: 537
    It can be startling to have something like this happen, as cars provide us with more than mere transportation - they are our secure little steel boxes in a sometimes harsh world. I think this is more true with females such as yourself. When they let us down, we feel betrayed and this is especially frustrating as there is no opportunity to voice this to an inanimate object.

    I'm sorry the dealership has such an apalling level of personnel working there, and agree you might consider establishing a relationship with the other place you stopped at. You were doubly impacted by having the dealer you bought it from not only do nothing to alleviate your concern, but deal clumsily with you and even insensitively make a pass. Incredulous, really.

    You made a fundamentally sound decision to get this car and I predict it will turn out to be a very wise investment for you in the years to come. I have a couple thoughts for you in regards to the stalling.

    1 - If you're the type to buy the cheapest gas available, stop doing this immediately and use a national brand's midgrade. I suspect the problem was cheap fuel and/or water in the fuel from a substandard gas station. It is common this time of year to have a bit of water in the gas due to the condensation of cooler temps. Go to an auto parts store and buy a can of HEET, or another brand of gasoline drier. It has a high content of alcohol, which combines with the water so that it will move through and burn (gasoline will not combine with the water).

    2 - Be sure your gas cap is tightened thoroughly after fueling up. Get it to click at least 5 times before stopping when you tighten it. This is a critical seal on today's cars to be sure the engine's fuel injection system is working properly.

    Also, can you tell us what happened when you tried to restart the car after it stalled? And what the helper did to get it started?

    IdahoDout
  • idahodougidahodoug Member Posts: 537
    I don't buy the bad VC at all. I also don't understand the connection between leaving the parking brake on and causing damage to it. If the parking brake is on hard enough to slow the rear tires down, then you won't get far before the rear rotors are warped, and smoking. The VC can easily handle transfering torque to the rear longer than the rear brakes could handle that abuse.

    In the last 6 months, I have had issues with two Subaru drive systems reveal tire circumference variances that surprised me. One was my Mother's car you all recall I towed a couple thousand miles (did some measuring before electing to remove the drive shaft). The other was my Pastor's Subaru which was making a rear CV sound.

    These Subarus both had the same tire and size front and rear. When I measured them, they were in excess of 3/4 inches different in circumference as against Subaru's 1/4 inch allowance. The message here is that it takes really diligent tire rotations to successfully wear out a set of 4 tires while remaining within spec.

    In addition, when you turn sharply (as into a parking space) the rear wheels describe an arc that is shorter than the fronts. This means they're turning notably slower. This means the 50/50 VC can cause a bit of 'axle windup' as the axles fight one another since you're on grippy pavement in reality (no slipping occuring).

    Couple this turning action with slightly different tire circumferences and you can definitely get some odd sounds and steering feedback.

    I suggest the following:

    Jack each tire in turn after confirming pressures are correct and measure the centerline circumference. Measuring the tire's height (diameter) as some have advocated is useless. I used a piece of string and a marker on the tire, then measured the string marks with a tape measure on the garage floor for accuracy (you'll need a helper if you use the tape measure directly on the tire). I suspect you'll find some significant differences even though these are the same exact tire, due to wear. If using the string, be diligent in keeping the string from falling into the tread grooves, and choose a string that will not stretch as this will easily blow the measurements.

    To alleviate the problem with the existing tires, put the smallest circumference tires on the rear. That way the larger rear tires are rotating faster and the VC will be less likely to rear it's head in tight turns when they slow down relative to the fronts.

    This is worth taking the hour or so to measure and rotate. If you find the rears currently on the car are smaller, then swapping them will make a huge difference. I have a LandCruiser with a center VC in high range and it exhibits some strange tight handling if I neglect tire rotation as well, so I suspect this is part of the tight VC characteristics. Let us know what you find. I was quite surprised at my measurements and I suspect you will also be surprised.

    IdahoDoug
  • jay_24jay_24 Member Posts: 536
    Forgot to check cca rating on the battery.

    Anyway, college days were spent at UW-Stout. 'bit' spent some time there too. Just slightly before my time...

    --jay
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    As usual, well done. However I had to read your recommendation a few time to be sure I got it right:

    "To alleviate the problem with the existing tires, put the smallest circumference tires on the rear. That way the larger (smaller??) rear tires are rotating faster and the VC will be less likely to rear it's head in tight turns when they slow down relative to the fronts."

    Thanks,

    Steve
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Wow, that guy should be fired. You should call 800-SUBARU3 to register a complaint, and then start using a different dealership.

    You probably lost power assist on the brakes. They are hydraulic and you wouldn't lose braking power completely, you'd just get a really stiff pedal.

    My guess is it was either the ECU, the alternator (which powers all the electricals), or the battery.

    A battery is a cheap fix, I got a new one for $40 at Wal Mart, and one with more CCAs. It starts more easily now.

    The dealer hopefully checked the ECU, but I'd also have them look at the alternator and test that, plus the accessory belt tension for the belt that turns the alternator.

    Guess it could be the gas too. The H6 thrives on premium. It'll run with lower octane, but the ECU will retard ignition timing and you'll lose about 4 horsepower.

    -juice
  • jay_24jay_24 Member Posts: 536
    The subie is in need of an oil change and I'm revisiting the thought of going to synthetic (mobil 1). If I go synthetic I'll probably change it myself to save some $$.

    A) does it really help cold starting/performance?
    b) can I go longer between oil changes?
    c) what oil filter is best. I've heard bad things about Fram, but my GMC went 180+k on them.
    d) how hard is it to do-it-yourself? keep in mind its 22 degrees outside and my garage is not heated.

    so is it worth it?

    side note: how can/do you adjust headlights?

    --Jay
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I agree with Doug (with Steve's correction). Besides, if a pair of tires is newer, they should go on the front since they do all the steering and carry most of the weight.

    But if the difference is more than 1/4", you may need a new set of tires.

    Sorry, the headlights on the Outback are different than the ones on my Forestser and on our Legacy.

    Only change to synthetic if the car is relatively new. So after the break-in period, but before, say, 15k miles. That's what the chief mechanics at that chat told us.

    I've thought about it a lot, but my Forester and Miata have both used dino oil for several years. I'm afraid a synthetic at this point might strip the seals and start an oil leak.

    I bet it does help cold starting, since it doesn't get a thick as dino oil when it get real cold, and it flows better. Performance? I doubt it once the car has warmed up.

    The oil lasts longer, but the filter won't. So you can probably use the 7500 mile interval, max.

    The oil filter study had Purolator and Champion Labs filters at the top. Fram and Pennzoil filters were poor performers. I found some Car & Driver filters that Target used to carry on closeout, for just 40 cents! You betcha, I bought about a dozen, still have maybe 6 left. That was sweet, but they don't carry them any more, at least around me.

    It's not hard. The Outback doesn't have the cover under the engine, so it's easier than a Forester. The oil filter points right down and is easy to access, though you may need an oil filter wrench if it's tight (but hand tighten when you replace it). The drain plug is easy to access, use a 17mm socket on a ratchet. Get a new 17mm crush washer for it. Just make sure you're removing the one at the bottom of the oil pan, not the transmission, which some Jiffy Lubes have done, d'oh! (*)

    -juice

    (*) D'oh is actually a word now, it was added to the dictionary!
  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    I think I'm having classic throw-out bearing symptoms. Squeek that I thought was belts got a little worse and I decided to do the old "clutch in, pay attention to whether there's any squeek" test, and wouldn't you know it, squeek went away. So, Paisan, you're going to have a pretty fresh Turbo Legacy when the time comes. I think I'm going to have at least the second gear synchro done at the same time. Maybe third also. Just how many PVC valves do I have in my car? Just curious. At 90k miles, should I have any/all checked/replaced? I was pretty down on the thought of spending another $1500.00 on it, but then I got to thinking about how quickly I'd burn through $1500.00 with a new car payment....like two or three months, so, so be it. Also, Paisan, why is it that I had no earthly idea you were so highly placed on another board? We Texans are troublemakers, aren't we? :) (I'm Jarvis there)

    Jim
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, the average car payment is just over $400, so about 3-4 months.

    Besides, can you imagine what a grey-market Blitzen would cost?

    -juice
  • "Besides, if a pair of tires is newer, they should go on the front since they do all the steering and carry most of the weight."


    This has been a point of controversy for a while now, but the general consensus is just the opposite, which is newer tires should be mounted on the rear axle. I didn't realize or understand this until Click and Clack discussed the topic on air and in their newspaper column. Now Michelin has addressed the issue in their literature, going as far as producing handouts for customers at Michelin dealers. Here's a link to Michelin's website that briefly discusses it: http://michelinman.com/care/tire_saving_tips/replacing/replacing_f.html


    -Ty

  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    that's the mental picture I had when I calced $750/mo! :)

    Jim
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    quote: I also don't understand the connection between leaving the parking brake on and causing damage to it. If the parking brake is on hard enough to slow the rear tires down, then you won't get far before the rear rotors are warped, and smoking. The VC can easily handle transfering torque to the rear longer than the rear brakes could handle that abuse.

    1. Subaru, like many other manufacturers, uses a set of small drum brakes in the center of the hub or inboard on the axle for the handbrake. Don't see the rear rotors warping in this scenario... but yes, you can fry the small drums.

    2. Consider for a moment the real drag on the VC caused by small tire diameter differences. Now consider what happens when the rear wheels are attempting to lock, which slows down the front wheels solely through the locking action of the VC. I've known people who ruined their VC getting stuck in a ditch, because it overheats from the slippage of having one set of wheels on the ground and the other in infinite slip. It's not hard see some equivalence in that type of strain to dragging the rear wheels with a forgotten handbrake.

    -Colin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ty: but the fronts wear more quickly naturally. That would make the rears wear out completely before you could even rotate them.

    I guess that's why they tell you to rotate often.

    -juice
  • Totally agree. I always recommend to family/friends replacing all 4 tires with identical size/make/model/tread depth and rotating regularly. The extra investment is always worth the extra safety and handling.

    Michelin is simply recommending to keep the best tires on the rear axle for optimum handling given the situation. Like you said, though, the fronts will wear faster (unless you have a rear-wheel drive and spin the tires, I guess), which means they'll have to be replaced sooner. At that replacement point, you would put the new tires on the rear and move the existing rear tires to the front.

    Given that strategy, it seems more expensive in the long run to keep replacing only 2 tires at a time. Yet another reason to replace all 4, rotate them regularly, and keep the pressure at the recommended level.
  • jfljfl Member Posts: 1,396
    juice - did you mean to say "fronts wear out..." since putting the worn tires in front would continue their "high wear" status?

    The Michelin link is interesting. Does Subaru have a recommendation on mounting two new tires, front vs rear? (or just get 4 new tires!)

    I think the reasoning behind installing them on the rear is the same argument about tire chains. On a FWD, chains in front and not in back means when you try to stop, the front grabs but with no traction in the rear, the tail just spins around out of control.

    Jim
  • jfljfl Member Posts: 1,396
    Just received my parts order from 1stsubaruparts.com. Very efficient and great prices! They're a Subie dealer so I called them to confirm prices and part numbers and mailed them Subaru credit card coupons to cover the parts costs. Great for those of us on the left coast as they're in Washington state. Saved on sales tax too!

    Jim
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Jim: yes.

    I guess Michelin is trying to prevent oversteer. Most drivers don't know how to react. Understeer is generally safer.

    Good to hear of another good wholesale source.

    -juice
  • hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    I changed at least 3 of my Hondas to synthetic, all had at least 40,000 Miles when I changed, I had no problem with leaking seals on any of them.

    I think those guys were being extra careful given that subaru does endorse the use of synthetic,strange since my local Subaru dealer is actually recomending synthetic over dino,especially given our cold climate, less wear and tear and easier starts.

    Cheers Pat.
  • nematodenematode Member Posts: 448
    Whatever you decide to do with the car make sure you report the dealer to Subaru so that there will be a complaint put in their file. Behavior like that should not be tolerated. juice posted the number.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, in that kind of cold, it won't get quite so thick and take so long to flow properly.

    I changed the gear oil on my Miata a couple of winters ago on a bitter cold day. The stuff is 75w90, thick-thick, so I replaced it with the same viscosity in a synthetic gear oil. I used a hand pump to force the oil up a tube into the tranny and diffy.

    MAN, that was hard. The stuff was so thick!

    I did the same to the tranny of our 626 on a hot day, and it was a piece of cake. And that was with synthetic gear oil. Imagine dino.

    -juice
  • otis123otis123 Member Posts: 439
    I third that! Call Subaru immediately to report their unprofessional behavior!

    I've luckily had nothing but excellent experience with my 2001 LLBean (close to 33K miles) and the dealer I used to buy and subsequently service the car - Curry Subaru in Yorktown Heights, NY

    Ralph
  • lspivalspiva Member Posts: 49
    Dixie. I know that you had expirienced and what is your feelings right now. I went through that not even a months ago, when I had a problem with my 5 months old 2003 Forester with 3,300 miles. You could guess the respond of the Subaru service advisor. So I complained to SOA. And how surprise I was to hear his sweet talk at the moment when I pick up my car. So Juice is absolutely right, complain to SOA and you will definately see a result. I am not sure what kind of the strings SOA pulls on dealer, but it seems to be working just fine. Maybe SOA are threating dealer to withdraw the franchise lisence (just a thought)?
  • lowellklowellk Member Posts: 30
    Last December I bought a cargo bin, the non-collapsible style, from them for my wife's Forester. The price was low, they did a nice job of packing such a bulky item and it arrived in a timely manner.

    My wife really likes that cargo bin. It's seldom removed from her car.

    --- Lowell
  • dixie31dixie31 Member Posts: 2
    Thank you all for the good advice.

    I will definitely try using higher quality gasoline in my car. As a matter of fact, when I thought about it again, I remembered I had fueled up at a "no-name" gas station the day before my car stalled. I'd never used them before, but there was a line at my usual gas station, and I was in a hurry. Bad gas could definitely be a factor.

    Also, you have convinced me to complain to Subaru about the dealership. While I knew their behavior was wrong, I was initially afraid to complain because I feared retaliation during future service visits. However, if I work with a different dealer, that won't be an issue. Besides, if they've acted that way towards me, they're probably doing the same thing to other women - and they need to stop.

    Juice, if my car stalls again after I make the switch to better gasoline, I will have the ECU, alternator and battery checked out.

    Idaho Doug, you articulated what I was feeling so well. Thank you for understanding the very heart of the matter here, and for offering such practical suggestions. (To answer your question, while I'm quite embarrassed to admit this: after my car stalled, I was in such a panic that I did not try to restart the car. Since this had never happened to me before, I thought I had completely lost my brakes and steering, so I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to control the car if I got it started again. So when that nice guy came to help me, he simply started it right up! At least now I know what to do if this ever happens again.)

    If anyone else out there has any related stories/advice, I am still all ears. However, I'm already feeling much better thanks to all of the nice, caring people who have posted responses.
  • hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    I put the Titan on synthetic Mobil One at the 6,000 mile change and that will be it for as long as I own him, in my experience synthetic does make a big difference.

    On Synthetic the hot running oil Pressure never varys, wheras on dino the hotter it gets the lower the oil pressure which more than proves dino loses viscosity the hotter it gets,lower viscosity plus hot engine equals lower protection.

    Cheers Pat.
  • jfljfl Member Posts: 1,396
    My next oil change is at 60k. Should I switch to synthetic? What are your thoughts?

    Jim
  • idahodougidahodoug Member Posts: 537
    Thanks for the corrections, Fibber and Colin.

    Colin, I think my original point "The VC can easily handle transfering torque to the rear longer than the rear brakes could handle that abuse." is still valid regarding the dragging parking brake. Though it is not really a difference of opine since we both agree that dragging the rear brakes is a bad thing, eh? :-)

    I think Michelin's recommendation on the tires is a little generic, personally (surprising since I'm a Michelin fanatic). Juice's point is well taken and I'd recommend someone put a set of news on the front where they wear faster.

    Interesting thought starter on ABS, though:

    In severe braking, the fronts generally lock before the rears on a healthy vehicle. New tires on the rear (turning slower) would engage the ABS later (takes more front tire slippage to slow down to, then drop below, the rear tire's RPMs). For some annoyingly sensitive systems, this may be a good thing, but for a market average this may not be the best.

    With the new tires on the front, the ABS system may be a bit more sensitive, but now the most likely to lock (front) tires have maximal traction to provide superior actual braking and to resist locking. Overall, I'd still put mine on the fronts, though I have not done this due to a lifelong "all four new at a time" ethos.

    IdahoDoug
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Doug,

    the other interesting thing is that the VC seized. I commented about that before... I've only heard of two seizing, ever, and in both cases they were the result of a mistake choosing a rearend and tranny (thus front differential) that didn't match ratios.

    otherwise I'd thought the VC just wears out and does nothing over time. presumably this forester had 4 tires the same rated size... regardless of tread wear, that's nothing at all like running 4.11:1 r&p in front and 4.44:1 rear!

    -Colin
  • nine51nine51 Member Posts: 77
    About using mid-grade gasoline, I had a person who sold gasoline wholesale to the dealers once tell me that if you want fresh gasoline, don't buy mid-grade. The regular and premium grades sell faster and therefore the tanks turn over faster. Mid grade is a slower seller, and some smaller stations could have mid-grade that's over 2 months old in their bulk tank. His advice was to buy your gas from a station that has a lot of traffic. Their gasoline is the most fresh.

    When your engine stalls, you really don't loose your brakes or steering, it just feels like it. You do loose the power assist, but you can still brake and turn, although it is very difficult. If you are not very strong, you might have to pull on the wheel with both hands to get it to turn, but that's better than running into something. And remember, you always have your hand brake. That is not power assisted, and in a newer un-rusted car, it should work.

    The finance guy at the sealer should be canned. It gives dealers a bad name to have someone like that around. Who knows, it's probably the owners brother-in-law, and he can't be fired.

    You didn't make a mistake buying a Subaru. I've had 6 of them and they are great cars. If you are from a large urban area, there may be an independent garage that will do maintenance work on Subarus. Ask around, and check the yellow pages. They might be able to figure out why it stalled. My 96 Outback Sport had a bad stumbling problem two years ago (at 110,000 miles), and a couple bottles of Techron fuel system cleaner cleared it up.
  • nine51nine51 Member Posts: 77
    If you use HEET in your fuel injected Subaru, be sure to get the kind in the red bottle. It contains Isopropyl alchohol. The other stuff in the yellow bottle can be corrosive to the metals in the fuel injection system. Check the label for Isopropyl alchohol.
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Yup my buddy Tony had the same brand, size and pressure tires on all four corners.

    Ken
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    I'm sorry to hear about your incident. A sudden stall in traffic has got to be stressful.

    To emphasize IdahoDoug's point, I've always used name-brand gas and my Forester has never quit on me.

    I'd also urge you to call SOA and complain about the dealer. Not only will you be making a difference, but I'm more than certain that your report will be held confidential.

    I hope you find confidence in your Subie again!

    Ken
  • waterguy1waterguy1 Member Posts: 2
    First post, so please bear with me. I unfortunately signed my paperwork for my new LLBean at the VERY MOMENT the dealer was informed about the recent recall. They impounded the car until they could get the needed part. Yesterday they installed the part and told me I could pick up the car. I was very anxious to drive it home. After I got home (25 mile trip) I noticed smoke billowing out of the engine compartment. My heart sank. Then I remembered reading that in order to fix the parking pin situation, they have to remove the transmission. After looking at the area it appears that the dealer, in his haste to complete the repair, spilled transmission fluid all over the place. I think some of the fluid was burning off the exhaust. At least that what I hope.
    ONE, I hope that is the case (I'll know latter when I drive it more), and TWO, I hope this is not an indication of general sloppiness with this dealer that I'll have to put up with latter.
  • hammersleyhammersley Member Posts: 684
    JimmyP: Methinks I have the same squeak, but without any synchro/gnashing of gears (yet?) Does a throwout bearing replacement require the rest of the clutch be r&r'd as well, or can it be replaced in & by itself?

    Cheers!
    Paul
  • idahodougidahodoug Member Posts: 537
    Siezing would be interesting to do an autopsy on, eh? I'm interested in what you think could have achieved this. I can only come up with 2 scenarios:

    1- The metal discs/blades got so hot they warped and physically interfere with each other.
    2- The VC fluid got so hot it coked up into a semi solid.

    Either way, yowza.

    Kens - I think it's important to realize that same tire, same pressure does NOT counterindicate different circumferences. As mentioned above, I personally measured 2 Subarus with the same tire and same pressure and found differences easily capable of activating the VC when it should not. I don't think the casual owner fully comprehends how diligent they must be on tire rotations to prevent this uneven wear - fronts get smaller far faster.

    IdahoDoug
  • bravadajonbravadajon Member Posts: 60
    I also drive a 03 LL Bean Wagon...about 1 and half months old...no problems at all except that the OnStar has a hardware problem....no recall notice to me yet about the transmissions park thing.

    I won't let them touch my tranny if it means taking the tranny out to fix a pin. Hands off my loveable Subie.

    I firmly set the parking brake at all times when parked, so I don't worry about it slipping out of park.
  • jfljfl Member Posts: 1,396
    In the past, I mentioned that at 30k, the service manager said my 2000 Legacy L didn't need the spark plugs changed, that it was not 'til due 60k.

    I figured he was wrong but went along with it. I just changed the plugs and wires (at 55k) and replaced plain ol' Champions (not platinum) with NGKs. The most difficult part was getting the boots off of the plugs, the rest is really quite straightforward.

    Also checked the brake pads, still have 6mm front and 4.5 mm rear. The limit is 1.5mm. In the coming weeks, I'll flush the radiator and replace the brake fluid.

    Jim
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    IdahoDoug,

    I don't doubt you for a second that the circumference can be off even with the same tires, milage and pressures. I just wanted to point out that there were no obvious errors. My friend has been diligently rotating tires every 5000 miles or so.

    We're scratching our heads.

    Ken
  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    I believe you certainly could do them independently, and probably not waste that much labor, but I just think that 90k miles in a Legacy Turbo is close enough, and I might as well do them both. Also, I didn't mean to associate the second gear occasional grind with the throw-out bearing, that's just something I've wanted to do for a while.

    Jim
  • dave226dave226 Member Posts: 22
    On the same topic re tires, I've noticed that both the front tires on my 2000 legacy wagon with 25 000 miles has uneven wear. They've been rotated every 6000 miles and the alignment was done at 20 000 miles yet the outer edge(aprox 1 inch in from the side wall) is wearing about twice as fast as the rest of the tire. The rear tires seem to be ok. The portion with the excessive wear has no cupping, just less tread depth. The vehicle does not pull to one particular side when I let go of the wheel on the highway and there is no vibration. Does this sound like an alignment issue ie incorrect camber...or would something else be causing this?

    Cheers!

    Dave.
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    doug,

    I agree with you and suspect that #2 is what happened. the viscous fluid is a lot like ATF, and when sheared until severely overheated, it can turn solid too.

    -Colin
  • jcy02objcy02ob Member Posts: 16
    My car is an 02 OBW with the H4 2.5 Phase II engine. Since new, its been noisy when the engine is cold and quiets down in 5 or 10 minutes. The noise I hear is a 'clattering' or as I have referred to it, like a sewing machine on steroids.
    At 300 miles, on my complaint, the dealer replaced the timing belt tensioner to reduce the noise. This had little or no effect. I now have 12K miles and because its getting colder in the NE, the noise is all too apparent, I think because it takes the engine longer to warm up.
    A couple weeks ago, I made an appointment with the dealer to leave the car overnight and go out with a tech the next AM for him to have a listen. A loaner was provided...thanks SOA. We started out and I wanted to go up a hill so I could duplicate the drive from my house every AM. The noise is louder with the engine under a load. About 100 yards into the drive, I told the tech that the noise he was hearing was what I was complaining about. His response was immediate: "Road test over". We drove back to the dealer lot.
    The tech proceeded to explain to me that the clattering is an inherent part/characteristic of the boxer engine. He referred to the engine as crude and said that while other Japanese big makes put huge resources into making their engines quiet, Subaru does not. I asked if there was anything wrong with the engine and he said no. In other words, dead end, live with it.
    I've read almost all the posts on these Subaru boards from their beginnings. I'm familiar with the Phase I noisy engines (97-99 2.5's IIRC). But I thought the newer SOHC engines were quiet. I'm confounded as I believe much thought and engineering goes into Subaru cars and yet they still have engines that make so much noise when cold. I'm impressed with all other aspects of the vehicle. I'm coming from a very expensive and recent Oldsmobile with so many problems that I traded it after 18 months so I'm just thrilled at the fit, finish, versatility and value my OB offers.
    Please, could anyone with a 00 or newer (99 for the Foresters) Subaru tell me their experiences with cold engine noise. Do they all do this, as the dealer would have me believe. Also, what exactly is going on to make the noise and are there any remedies? I've read about the replacement pistons but only in the older 2.5's. Is this an option for me? Patti...any suggestions?
    BTW: To satisfy my curiosity I drove an 03 OBW off the lot for a test spin to see if the noise was in that one and yes, it was. But that still doesn't make me feel any better about mine.
  • xccoachlouxccoachlou Member Posts: 245
    Idaho Doug says...

    2 - Be sure your gas cap is tightened thoroughly after fueling up. Get it to click at least 5 times before stopping when you tighten it. This is a critical seal on today's cars to be sure the engine's fuel injection system is working properly.

    Not in NJ. It is illegal, and verboten, to pump your own gas here. Did I mention that unleaded regular goes for $1.34-$1.26 here? :)
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Dave,

    I'd suspect the alignment. If you've gotten the alignment a 20K, chances are the wear pattern was already in your tires and it was too late to correct for it.

    Also, lots of places offer alignments, but many of them are often not very accurate. Did you go to an alignment specialist or a general shop? Specialists are a little more pricey, but I find it well worth my money.

    Ken
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    While it's true that boxer engines are a little more noisy when cold, "crude" is certainly far from the truth. That's a term better reserved for American muscle car engines.

    Although unlikely, it may be that your noise is caused by piston slap. In any event, I'd document your case with SOA and see if a different dealer can take a look. Another possibility is to have a regional tech representative take a look as well.

    Ken
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