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Dodge,Ford,Chevy------who wins?

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Comments

  • dave40dave40 Member Posts: 582
    Ford Super duty vs Sierra 2500
    http://www.caranddriver.com
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    well, KC, i don't think GM has to absolutely top both the Cummins and Navistar in the power numbers, but it would sure help their marketing if it did. if they put up an engine that is within 10-20 ftlbs, or a few horsepower, thats not enough that different gearing wouldn't hide. what if it had a more reliable design or better mileage. and not to mention if they truck was the best on the market, an engine that fell short by 20 ftlbs at peak, shouldn't be the only reason for not getting a truck.

    But, i agree, it will be hard to make an advertisement for a new engine that doesn't have the raw numbers. Just read some posts around here and see how people preach peak numbers as bible.
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    cdean,

    My point exactly. Today with the consumer buying light trucks as much as the work/commercial user, manufacturers have to play the numbers game. Cummins is sending that revised engine to Dodge in January not just to make some drivability adjustments, but to reclaim the hp and torque lead from Navistar. Never mind that, since both engines currently produce 235 hp @ 2700 rpm, physics tell you they are also both producing 460 lb-ft @ 2700 rpm as well. That "500" number from Ford sat in people's minds at the number to beat. So Dodge will have 505 to work with - a big improvement? No. A numbers game and a marketing tool? Absolutely.

    With the Nav at 235/500 and the Cummins at a projected 245/505, the Duramax really needs to come in at 230-250 hp and it must have 500 lb-ft. That magic digit "5" will be a sales killer for GM if they can't meet it, just as the magic digit "3" makes or breaks a gas engine's horsepower figure.
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    i think i heard on the radio that overall, all vehicle sales were down for the past month. I think a lot of people are holding out on GMs in hope of 4 doors, and/or new heavy duty models.

    It appears that the Tundra was "immune" to the slow month of June.
  • dave40dave40 Member Posts: 582
    300 hp 520 lbs torque
    heard it through the grapevine
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Numbers this close don't matter to the average consumer. 500,520 or 530? So what. Now if GM was boasting 600--then my jaw would probably be slacked...
    I think that GM really has to figure which part of the truck debate they want to go all out for. Throwing new engines around has always been a Chevy stronghold but they have lost customers through the years with the other features. Ford has really positioned itself as the work-truck leader with the exceptional line of the super-duty's. Their light half-tons are nimble enough to appeal to new truck-owners which completes the circle.
    Dodge knows that looks won't get them to Ford's level so they have been improving options and the like. GM is right to design a new diesel but better start looking at the whole package.
  • moparmannmoparmann Member Posts: 1
    Test drive a dodge and you won`t even look at the rest. The rules HAVE changed. Chevrolet/Gmc is having problems competing and ford has to change body styles each year to even try to keep up.
  • dave40dave40 Member Posts: 582
    Well here's Chevy's New numbers for the 2000 Silverado's
    4.8 + 15 hp same torque
    5.3 + 15 hp + 10lbs torque
    6.0 + 25 hp same torque
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    the 6.0 is an interesting rating then - 325 hp, and 355 lb-ft of torque. Is it mentioned whether it was a further increase in the rpm band, or is the necessary torque actually higher at the hp peak point?
  • dave40dave40 Member Posts: 582
    Not sure on the rpm curve's
    but the hp increase was achieved with new cam's
    4.8 270 hp
    5.3 285 hp
    6.0 325 hp
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Member Posts: 2,721
    I drove next to an GM/Izuzu heavy duty truck the other day. The diesel motor, in comparison to a Navistar or Cummins is exceptionally quiet. So much so, they may have to sweeten it up a bit to satisfy the cravings of the light truck market segment. It may make 300 hp, but if you have to floor it to make anyone notice....
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    ha! its funny but you're right. I have a couple of friends who admittedly bought a powerstroke for one simple reason: "It sounds so cool!"
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Moparmann,

    The rules have changed but the first rule hasn't:Ford is the truck leader. They haven't changed styles "each year" to keep up. Keep up? Last time I checked keeping up for Ford means maintaing number 1.
    Don't misinterpret me; Dodge has made VAST improvements during the past decade and I think it was great for the other two. It does add to the mix. Trust me, I own all three for our firm and the Rams have held their own.
    Chevy is in the biggest need for a good shot in the arm if they want to stop the bleeding. Boy,that strike couldn't have hit them at a worse time.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    maintaining. Damn I knew I should used that spellcheck!!!!!!!!!
  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    I agree, I think GMs supply problems are still repercussions of the strike. very possibly some quality or mechanical problems are due to the scramble to set up the factories after it was resolved.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    First off let me say that I have no particular loyalty to any particular brand. The only truck I've ever owned was a used 1986 Jeep Cherokee. Now that I have a house and live in the country in New Hampshire, I decided I needed a truck. And my wife wants a horse (and trailer). So I entered the pickup market.
    I looked at the Ford and the Dodge, and testdrove the Tundra and the Silverado (Z71). If the Toyota weren't 95% fullsize I may have bought it. I have owned Ford, Dodge, and Chevy cars and found that the Chevies had the best quality (always started and ran - not necessarily the shake-rattle-paint quality). So you can see I'm going to say I'm buying a Chevy Siverado 1500 - 4x4, ext. cab, Z-71, w/5.3L engine. Why? It has the largest interior, for 2000 - the 5.3 makes 285hp and I believe has better mpg than the large (same power range) Ford and Dodge engines, and it has Autotrac instantaneous 4wd as an option. Hopefully GM has most of the bugs worked out after a year of production.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    May I ask how much it cost?
  • markbuckmarkbuck Member Posts: 1,021
    horse and trailer? I'd go 3/4 ton....
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    I haven't purchased my Silverado yet, so I don't have a price. I want it before winter comes as I have a wholly inadequate-in-the-snow '98 Camaro. I am going to the closest Chevy dealer, and want to order it for near invoice. If they want more than the 3% Holdback from GM, I'll tell them I'm going to a AAA or Costco Warehouse Club dealer, or even on the Internet - I think there's a place "invoice.com" or something. I'm going to try the last-day-of-the month factor also.
    I won't be pulling a horsetrailer much, and estimate the max. wt. to be around 3000lb. So the 1500 should be fine. I want to keep the truck for a longtime, and I just couldn't live with the 12mpg people are getting from the 6.0L in the 2500.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    The gas mileage won't be any better when yanking a heavy trailer. I also seriously doubt that 3,000 pounds will be the limit. You might want to do more research in fifth-wheel trailers and reconsider a 3/4 ton. If you want to keep this truck over time-it'll be hard without changing a fair amount of bearings and the like on stressing a half-ton on big jobs like a horse trailer.
  • smsmith1smsmith1 Member Posts: 2
    I've been doing the "Truck Hunting" thing and bouncing back and forth between the Big 3. Chevy was a nice ride and had good pickup (no pun intended) but wouldn't deal less than 6% over invoice and wanted to make the difference up in trade allowance. Ford looks cool, but didn't have the power of the Chevy and offered even less for the trade. So went for the Dodge Ram 1500 QuadCab, 5.2L V8. Basically just driving to and from work, and doing those weekend projects when you need to haul stuff. Good choice or not. Rebates and dealer incentives played a factor in choice. I did this all through the internet, and even got financing through the internet which was lower than banks or credit unions in the area. Any comments.
  • quadrunner500quadrunner500 Member Posts: 2,721
    Rebates and dealer incentives affect the price, and price can make a good choice into a bad choice, or vice versa. You looked at the big picture, so you probably made a good choice also.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Where did you go for financing-just curious. My other question is how much did Dodge compare price wise to the others? Ford and Chevy also have rebates and incentives--maybe other dealers would have helped?
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Oh, yeah, what kind of trade did you have?
  • dave40dave40 Member Posts: 582


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  • dave40dave40 Member Posts: 582


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  • dave40dave40 Member Posts: 582


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  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    Did you have some extra time at the Chevy dealer waiting for new brakes?
  • dave40dave40 Member Posts: 582
    That recall was for the older models not the 99s
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    I want to reinvogarate this great topic by bashing the following: Dodge and GM (like there is any real difference between Chevy and GMC). Now thaT Toy-O-Truck has made a full-size--they will be bashed by me as well. See, inclusion is a great thing!
    Tim,
    Driving in a bow-tie? Wouldn't you rather be driving sheep?

    Serious matter: How many guys today driving those pretty ;) Dodge sheep had trucks prior to the re-design?? Let alone guys who actually drove those butt-nasty ones before the new girl friendly style?
  • dave40dave40 Member Posts: 582
    F oreign
    O bjects that
    R esemble horse
    D roppings
  • dave40dave40 Member Posts: 582


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  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    Rocles,

    There's a 16 year old Dodge W350 at my dad's job - it has outlived quite few Fords and GMs purchased after it. At one point, the bed was so beat up from use, the tailgate wouldn't open. It has since had the bed straightened and a bedliner added, and was fully repainted a couple of years ago. Still starts every morning, and passes inspection every year. I had driven it a few times, and it rode like a brick, but it was as tough as one, too - it thought nothing about backing up over curbs to get to where it needed to be, without having to floor it to do it.

    When I was shopping for a heavy duty truck, that W350 told me "Dodge".
  • f220swiftf220swift Member Posts: 103
    G ood
    M echanics
    C ompanion
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    We've been down this road before....

    That Dodge is the exception-not the rule. There is always some guy in Tinbucktu that had some old VW mini-truck and he has 300,000 miles on it and those stories sometimes ring true. However, I wonder how many of those rams tore their tranny after 60k miles?
    My expierence at my firm is that the newer Rams have outlasted the Chevys-but that isn't a great accomplishment. It's sad. I had loved Chevy growing up and the first truck we started with was an old c50. The axles and suspension were always giving us problems which in turn sent us to the Ford dealer.
    That first Ford was so damn ugly in my eyes! I let my partner buy it and regretted immediately. That was 12 years ago. Now we have 18 light-trucks in which 12 are Fords and I couldn't be happier.
    I vowed that I will never be blind to brand again---big fan of Ford--but not blind. The Rams have given us some problems but no major ones and we have noticed the new Toy Tundra since we will be buying two new trucks at the end of this year. My personal truck is a F-150 ex.cab w/5.4l and I've been completly satisfied.
    By the way, those new additions,(whatever they will be--haven't decided yet), will be replacing our remaining Chevys.
  • dave40dave40 Member Posts: 582


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    CHEVY TRUCKS
    ask Albert
  • smsmith1smsmith1 Member Posts: 2
    Rocles, got the financing through Peoplefirt.com. Rate was 6.88 which was better than what was being offered by local banks and dealership. (even though Ford and Chevy had good rates). The Dodge was priced about the same as the Silverado with a V6. The Ford was the same but with a V8. The Dodge I chose didn't have keyless entry, powerseats and a CD player. But for $3,000 less I could always put in my own Alarm System and CD player. Afterall it is a truck. For the record I have own GMC, and my father had a pain in the butt Ford.
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    It's getting old.

    Smssmith1,
    Say no more, 6.88 was a great rate offer!
  • dave40dave40 Member Posts: 582


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    CHEVY RULES !
  • sd99sd99 Member Posts: 65
    I'm sure I've seen the two pictures that Dave40 showed us somewhere. I've got it, they were working on a truck, a Chevy truck.
  • dave40dave40 Member Posts: 582


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  • cdeancdean Member Posts: 1,110
    we should publish the mature, witty exchange.


    I side with Rocles on the old Dodge debate, I think KC's dad's work's truck was the exception not the rule. I can't tell you how many farmers, ranchers, mechanics, etc etc, i've saw struggle with the "old" dodges. they couldn't get thru a wet paper bag. any heavy duty company who attempted to work one of the trucks usually learned fast and hard. one thing about them, they always had great engines. it was everything around the engine that sucked. couldn't pull a trailer without scary handling or slipping tranny. I remember my grandfathers dodge in particular...the 360 would run like a scalded ape, BUT, any slight load in the bed would cause fishtailing going down the road, the front end shook horribly over 65 mph, tranny didn't last, you needed a parachute to get the thing to stop, AC never worked for more than a week at a time....I saw many an old dodge with these same symptoms. Even the older model Dodges with the Cummins were crappy. People were buying those trucks because 1)it had a Cummins, and 2) thats the only thing that mattered. Well, a couple of long distance heavy haulers I knew were cussing Dodge because their Cummins wanted to pull that 10000# load, but their clutch was slipping going up hills, or their rear end was burning out, or all their electronics weren't working, etc.

    sorry, didn't start out meaning to get into that kinda detail
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    cdean,

    Ditto. Dodge hardly got rid of the few trucks they made back then. I remember Dodge always being the cheapest in price and that will always get some guys in the door. Good observation on their engines--solid work-horses but the overall truck was inferior to Chevy and Ford.
    I always point out to Dodge fans that when the cummins showed up--the dealers still had to find new ways of selling the truck. Ask any Horse man--they always stuck with Oval and Bowtie for their haulers.
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    Rocles and cdean,

    Not disputing your observations on the previous Dodge truck, and yeah, that W350 is probably not representative of the total production. My point in bringing that unit up was imply that a good truck will always last forever, properly maintained. Fords and GMs more often last by default, meaning they're built well enough to take more abuse and less maintenance. Everybody comments on, and DC certainly is aware of, the Mopar 47RE automatic behind the Cummins, and its problems with handling the oil-burner's torque. Yet mine has been flawless. Then again, I also spend the $90 every 12,000 miles for the dealer to do a full tranny service (fluid, filter, gasket, band adjustment), as the owner's manual states.

    DC certainly had to learn to match the initial build quality of Ford and GM after 1994. GMC used to sell double the number of Dodges, now Dodge is 2-1/2 times more than GMC, and 70% of Chevy production. They've won the JDPower APEAL award 4 straight years over Ford and GM. They must have learned SOMETHING by now :)
  • RoclesRocles Member Posts: 982
    KC,

    The production figures proved a new low for the American consumer. It proved that they didn't bother with the suspect Dodge rep and bought the product simply for the looks. I guess Ford and Chevy shouldn't be rewarded for quality.
  • jcmdiejcmdie Member Posts: 594
    What quality from ford or chevy are you referring to? If you read thru the various topics you will find that all three has had a lot of problems. They all make good ones and bad ones. As far as the dodge reputation is concerned, take a look at the complete turnaround that dodge has made since the mid '80s. The company almost went under and now they doing quite well. Look at the minivan sales. Look at the improved quality across the board. In the '60s thru most of the '80s they were junk and that is why they almost went under. Dodge does not have it all together yet. But ford and chevy dominating the market for years they haven't got it together yet either. I'm amazed at the number of problems that keep coming up on these boards with these trucks-especially chevy.
  • unsureunsure Member Posts: 2
    so what is the best truck to buy...Dodge, Ford or Chev?...or is it best to just put the names in a hat and draw one out? Which one and why?
  • dave40dave40 Member Posts: 582


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  • blugillblugill Member Posts: 36
    Your asking about some peoples religion you know. In the end there are differences, but they are not that important.

    Chevy rides the most like a car in my expirence. Their gas engines seem to be the best (after the latest re-design). Put a heavy trailer on the back end, or a big load on, and your head lights become yard lights for the man on the moon. If you want a truck for a plywood once in a while the chevy is good.

    The best engine overall is the cummins diesel in the dodge. The Ford power stroke is right behind though, and has more power. Either one need more gears than you can get, as my friends with the double max weight trailers tell me. Get the 6 speed transmission if you can stand a manual. May have to wait on the dodge, but it is wroth it. Automatics don't stand up to diesels well. (though some have has luck, so long as you don't overload things, but then I consider overloading the point of a pickup)

    Ford has the nicest overall suspention, but it rides like a truck. Dudge has problems with suspention and body quality. The old folks towing the 5th wheeler swear by their dodge, or swear at their other brand.

    Hey dave40, can you know off that propaganda. My religion is christian, not Chevy.
This discussion has been closed.