Lookout Ford, Dodge, Chevy: Here comes T150

Motormouth · May 1998

Toyota is aiming directly at the Ford F150 market
with its new T150 which will be a V-8 driven
full-sized truck.

I don't know how soon the details will be
available on this, but I just saw a picture of it
in an auto mag, and it looks pretty nice. No price
was given, but look for it to hit the shores for
the 1999 model year. I'll pass along more details
as I come across them... if anyone else has an info
source, please feel free to share them with us.
Thanks.

Motormouth

cdean · May 1998

I've seen pictures of this at car shows and magazines. this truck looks a lot like the F150, i think a little better. I believe the base engine was a 4.7 Liter v8. whatever the engine in the Landcruiser is, that is what's going in this trucks. I have a feeling this truck is going to be a serious player in the half ton market. interesting design on the four door extended cab with door handles on the outside of the back suicide doors.

Brutus · May 1998

Lack of choices might be a weak point if they are only offering one engine, one rear end, etc. I'm thinking that this new truck might bring more consumers into the 1/2 ton market who might previously have considered a small or midsize truck. I just don't see a significant number of current 1/2 ton drivers jumping ship from the Big Three, unless Toyota expands their selection.

KCRam · May 1998

Toyota is trying again, after their miserable failure with the T100, but the Japanese trucks still have one fatal flaw. The CA (cab-to-axle) dimension is totally wrong. If you look at any of the full or mini domestics (including the Mazda and Isuzu which are now Ford and GM trucks), the extended cab shortbed is on a unique chassis, while the Japanese trucks simply saw off the longbed to extend the cab. This puts the rear axle very close to the front of the bed, and against everything I ever learned in engineering physics, does not permit loads of any substantial size to be placed ahead of the axle so that the front suspension can share the weight. This also eliminates any possibility of using industry standard parts and accessories, something the domestic full-sizers can generally do. The only domestic exception is the F150, but they solved the problem the opposite way; they made the CA on the longbed further back, so that the regular and extended cab shortbeds were identical.

When Toyota *really* wants to join the full-size arena, they will make something a little more versatile than a 5%-larger Dakota. And even then, a V8 Dakota will smoke this thing.

lwf · May 1998

"The CA (cab-to-axle)dimension is totally wrong."

You kind of lost me on this one. Would you mind sharing with us the actual CA dimensions of the various vehicles, and indicate what the "good" and "bad" dimensions are and where the cross-over point is between the two. I usually use a trailer for heavy stuff like crushed stone, etc., but I have occasionally hauled a bed full of oak logs, and I always thought the general idea was to try to center the load over the rear axle so the front axle didn't get too much.

Rocles · May 1998

Huh? Rear-axles generally benefit from receiving as little ballast as possible. It would be advantageous to place any load under the rear to fully appreciate the full usage of both axles. The cab is always on top of the front axle. The wheel-base is better at some distance and I guess kcram meant that. Longer wheel-base?Or--do you mean the Japanese neglect of proportions?

Motormouth · May 1998

The Toyota T150 (incidently, the name is no coincidence... it is meant to be an "In your face, Ford" reference) will NOT be coming standard with the V-8.

The standard engine will be the V-6, with the 4.7L V-8 available as an upgrade. This is the same engine currently in the LandCruiser, but it will be torqued differently. I think the magazine said it was rated at 270hp.

Incidently, one of the magazines that has a picture of it is Car & Driver's May issue.

Toyota admits it missed the mark with the T100. However, Toyota doesn't often miss the mark, and when they do, they usually come back with a bang, and this one looks like it could be just that.

Incidently, the truck will be manufactured here in the U.S. at their new plant in (I think) Indiana.

They expect to be ready to start shipping them around this time next year.

If I were Ford, I'd take notice or else, at this time next year, they could be holding their stomachs and saying "Ohh... what a feeling!"

cdean · May 1998

I think toyota will get their own faithful into this truck first, with Ford, Chevy, and Dodge drivers starting to take a little notice later. Right now, there is an incredible amount of first time truck buyers out on the market. I think this is why Ford had such a great year last year, their F150 is more like a car than any other truck, while at the same time being a functional truck. I didn't mean that derogatory, I meant it is really refined. Toyota is going to dip into this pool of first time buyers.

Toyota has more followers than you would imagine. I know a few disgruntled Chevy and Ford owners who went with smaller toyotas for improved quality. They have their stuff together, and i expect a good truck. I'm not sure about the discussion on the cab to axle ratio. do you really think they've engineered those smaller trucks to haul any kind of load to begin with? i don't.

by the way, it's my experience, the further back the center of gravity of your load, the more likely the vehicle will experience yaw, which is fish-tailing. By putting a heavy load in front of the bed, you still have 80-90% of the load on the back axle since you are only 2 ft from the back axle and 10 to 12 ft from the front. My chevy's have always handled any load, anywhere, but the truck sits best with the load up as far as possible. i have tool box, so that limits me.

lwf · May 1998

I don't want to make a big thing out of this, but I'm of the opinion that pickups are designed for the payload to be supported almost entirely by the rear springs, which are heavy-duty leaf springs as opposed to the front springs which are coil. If you look at the dimensions of an American make, full-size extra cab with a short bed (76"-78"), the rear axle is typically 40 inches in front of the tailgate which leaves about 38" to the front of the bed. Suppose you were to load the bed with about a ton of stone of roofing shingles which implies the weight is distributed evenly. This kind of a truck generally has a wheelbase of 139", so if you do the math to calculate the tributary weight supported by the front axle, it will be almost 0. Actually it will be a -14 lbs, because there is more weight in the bed to the rear of the back axle than in front of it so it will be unloading the front axle of a few pounds of the engine weight. Do the same kind of arithmetic for a long-bed extended cab with an 8' bed (40" in back of the axle and 56" in front) and 157" wheel base, and the tributary load on the front axle will be 101 lbs. Next do the same calculations for regular cabs with wheelbase of 120" and 139" for short and long bed, respectively, and the front-axle loads are -16 lbs and +115 lbs. Which essentially says that if you drop a ton of stone in the bed of your truck, almost all of that weight will go directly to the rear axle. I had always assumed that's what was intended, because although coil springs may be ok for each of all four wheels of a passenger car or the front wheels of a pickup, they're not really designed for extra-heavy loads. As far as a concentrated load (like a heavy machine) is concerned, I definitely would not put it back near the tailgate. But depending on how heavy it was, I'd try to keep it's center of gravity near the rear axle, if possible. But it's a free country and I guess everyone can load their own pickup as he/she sees fit.

I was just completely puzzled by kcram's new (to me) parameter(CA). I never knew there was a problem, so I was trying to find out a little more about it.

KCRam · May 1998

Let me dredge up some physics from my college days...

Think of the load you place in your pickup bed creating a torque (twisting effect) around the axle. If the load of the truck (and this must count the entire load: cab, passengers, and cargo) is between the axles, the suspensions work together - the torque or twist on the front axle is rearward (looking at the truck from the driver's side, it's clockwise), the torque on the rear axle is forward. The suspensions thus share the load. If you overload the back of the truck (concentrating more of the weight behind the rear axle, the torque on the rear axle is *rearward*, away from the truck - this causes the front axle to unload, or lift, to follow this torque curve. By having a CA dimension that is too short, the majority of bed cargo will end up behind the rear axle causing this undesirable suspension effect.

I realixe that's tough to understand if you never took engineering physics, but it does work in life. Example: think about the overloaded station wagon we have all seen on the highway - back end scraping the ground and its headlights illuminating trees instead of the road. If that same load is in front of the rear axle, the car will still be closer to the ground but LEVEL, because now, the front suspension is sharing the load.

Trailer towing is a different effect because this is more a function of tensile strength and power. You could capably pull two friends in your little red wagon just as you could pull one, but it took more effort, and you could feel the tension in your arms under the heavier load. Didn't have much effect on the weight to your shoes, though. That's why pickup tow ratings are often 1 1/2 to twice their own curb weights.

KCRam · May 1998

and just to make a point to Rocles - the cab is shared weight - the engine balances much of the passenger load, and the axle is ahead of the passenger compartment, not under it. Back seat passengers or loads in an extended cab pickup are pretty much centered between the axles.

Motormouth · May 1998

Just from reading all that. I'm not bright enough in the area of physics to understand all of that... so I'll just take your word on it and figure that if a design has worked as long as it has with many of the pickups that have been out there for a long time, then I figure it ought to hold what I'm carrying without too much issue unless I try to take an exit ramp at 65mph.

If I had to consider all the rest of that, I think the load may be fine, but my head would be in danger of exploding! ;-)

Thanks for the detailed (I think) explanation!

Motormouth/reaching for the Excedrin(tm)

Rocles · May 1998

kcram,
Ok-I never really thought about it. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I guess my major in Finance didn't prepare me to well for physics! It's good to know that someone can retain knowledge from college--I know I haven't!

cdean · May 1998

does anyone have any numbers on the towing that this t150 can do, and, is there going to be anything larger than a half ton offered (3/4 ton or more)?

FETZ · May 1998

The T150 won't do it for me. Does anyone know if Toyota has plans for a T250 or T350?

lwf · May 1998

Maybe this would be a good place to start another topic, but now that the subject of super trucks has been raised, I'll put it here. Anyone who has been in other parts of the world has seem versions of Mercedes trucks not normally seen here in the US. Big guys, with lots of power. Does anyone have any insight as to whether this recent marriage announcement between Daimler and Chrysler might result in new truck lines in this country?

KCRam · May 1998

Brutus

Yes, the 450 and 550 are the next weight progression, but they're not pickups - they're medium duty (class 4 and 5) chassis-cabs, and the average personal-use buyer won't go past the class 3 F350.

lwb

The Mercedes Unimog is imported by a few small firms now, but would cost a lot to bring up to US safety standards (air bags, impact beams, etc.), so it's unlikely that the new DaimlerChrysler AG will bring it here.

Rocles · May 1998

F-450 and F-550? Got a little carried away didn't you Brutus? Valid points on the light-duty F-250 which seems to be forgotten. I think that truck is an excellant upgrade for a personal user. The best thing is the price of the F-250. Toyota will have their hands full,but then again,so did Honda when it built cruiser bikes in the 70's. Two decades have followed and they are matching selection of Harley. It really never takes the Japanese long to perfect a product.

Brutus · May 1998

Actually, we were talking about 1/2 tons with the T-150. When it came up that drivers have no options with Toyota if they want to move up to the 1/2 ton and 1 ton, I figured I'd mention they also have no options if they want to move up even higher. In reality, Toyota has no selection in the 1/2 ton model, much less the next steps up. It's a one size fits all. I suspect they will expand the 1/2 ton selection if they have any success with the T-150, but that is a big IF.

wesl · May 1998

I hope that Ford tries to stop Toyota from using the T-150 name. Not that it matters, but could you imagine the uproar is Ford named its new Focus the Ford Forolla? Just a thought. Can't wait to see how much a fully loaded V8 T150 will cost. Even if it is built here it will probably cost more

KCRam · May 1998

Ford and Dodge used 3-digit numbers simultaneously for years (F150 vs D150/W150) - Ford probably takes it as flattery. No one confuses a Chevy Silverado 1500 with a Dodge Ram 1500 either.

Brutus · May 1998

And, of course, nobody will mistake a toy with a real truck.

Brutus · May 1998

The F-450 is a real truck. The F-550 is new this year, but still.....it doesn't change the facts that Ford offers those options. OK, Chevy and Dodge, your competing models are? A few years back (many a few), the 1 ton was a thought on a drawing board. There is a leader in the heavy duty market. No doubt who that is....again.

ChrisLy · May 1998

I think the T150 will have a lot of problems selling but the only reason is that there are so many new trucks coming out next year, like the Ford F150 Lightning, the redesigned GMC/Chrysler C/K 1500, and I believe Dodge has a new design coming next year also. The T150 isn't that much smaller than the F150, but the F150 isn't that big either. The current T100 is only 5" less wide than the F150 and the T150 will be just about the same width but the problem is, according to the T150 concept model, up top, it's much more narrow. Although the T100's back seats are small, they are reclined unlike the F150s. The T150 will have 3 or 4 doors and more back seat area. I really hope they keep the high ground clearance in the T150, cause that's the best thing about the truck appearance wise. It also makes it the best performing 4x4 off roader according to magazines. If the T150 didn't have competition from all new models that might be better looking, it would sell pretty good. Also, because it's built in America, it won't cost more than its better equipped competitors now.

lwf · May 1998

"the redesigned GMC/Chrysler C/K 1500"

Daimler is pulling some fast business deals these days, but I completely missed that one. Does this mean they took over GM as well? Only kidding, I know what you meant.

snowgod · May 1998

T100/T150... what ever. I had a toyota truck once. It was cute and all, but it wasn't a TRUCK. Do some work out of a truck someday and you'll understand why foreign auto makers shouldn't be aloud to make so called trucks any more...

Rocles · June 1998

snowgod,
Please enlighten us why only the big 3 can build "trucks".

smi · June 1998

Chris Ly:
Where are the dimensions for the T-150 available. I have ordered a 5sp T-100 4x4 excab because I thought the T-150 was supposed to be larger and the T-100 size was more important to me than the extra doors or the good looks. My Z-71 excab was way too large to go many places off-road. Sounds like I may have had bad info. Have'nt paid for the 100 yet. I would be concerened about the first couple of years production until they get the bugs worked out.Was it the T-100 that was reported to have better performance off-road than the big 3? Who did the tests?

chimchim · June 1998

Even though the t-150 is to be made in the US, it will still be more expensive than it's domestic counterparts. just like the tacoma (made in CA) is more expensive than it's domestic counterparts. Why? You get what you pay for. Toyota sets higher quality standards.. READ the reviews out there.. there are many. Consumer Reports, Car and Driver, Automobile Mag to name a few. Toyota quality in comparison to other manufacturers is just fact. That's where they win. Where they come short is size. No the t-150 can't haul a horse trailer or a mobile home like an f-350. It's not intended to compete with trucks of that size. The competition is the F-150, Chevy c/k, Ram 1500, and as someone mentioned earlier -- first time truck buyers or people moving up from smaller trucks. It's biggest problem will be BRAND LOYALTY. It's no secret that is a big issue or "thing " with trucks. Generally a Ford man is a Ford man and he "ain't gonna drive no Dodge, Chevy or 'specially not one of them there [non-permissible content removed] trucks." You can see this kind of BIAS all over this web page. (as well as the back windows of many trucks out there)

lwf · June 1998

Your right chimchim. I do see a lot of bias in posts in this Edmunds web site; however, I disagree with you regarding its direction. It seems to me that most of the bias is against American-made vehicles and in favor of two Japanese manufacturers, Toyota and Honda. But I don't think your right about Consumer Reports praising Toyata pickups, if that's what you meant.
As a matter of fact, a Ford Ranger was at the top of CU's list and check rated; whereas, the Toyota Tacoma was all the way on the bottom.......last place and below Ford, Mazda, Chevy/GMC and Dodge.

I currently have one of those Ford 150s that you seem to detest. But I assure you that I didn't buy it because of some perverted sense of brand loyalty. It's actually my first Ford pickup and only the second Ford product I've ever owned. (I had a Japanese pickup before this one, and other American-made trucks before). I bought it, I think, because I thoroughly researched what was available and selected the F150 as the best I could find, for me anyway.

Well, maybe in a couple of years the T150 will have been proven the best pickup in the world and will have generally displaced all sales of American pickups, Ford, GM and Dodge will be down to about 100,000 pickups a year, and Toyota will have all the rest (maybe a couple of million). But I really doubt it, even if there is a lot of bias against American-made vehicles here on this Edmunds web page.

Rocles · June 1998

Toyota makes quality products but don't confuse that with bias. Ford has consistantly outsold ALL trucks because of reputation that has been well-earned. They compete with a GM network of greater numbers in sales force and yet still beat them.
I agree that alot of people make decisions based on incredulous reasons that have no rationality. There is also alot of people that make decisions based on true needs and Ford accomadates them. Just because someone buys one of the Big 3 doesn't imply that they are "biased" against foreign products.
I should know. I own both.

KCRam · June 1998

just on proven experience, I think it's safe to make this statement: Europeans make the best performance cars, Asians make the best economy cars, Americans make the best trucks, and all three are on equal ground with luxury. Yes, there are exceptions, but this is based on what people have been saying (both consumers and the automotive press) for the last 30+ years.

KCRam · June 1998

I picked this up off the web - this is very funny:

TOYOTA WILL CHANGE NAME OF NEW PICKUP
Toyota said it agreed to change the name of its new full-sized pickup truck, the Toyota T-150, at the request of Ford, according to a Bloomberg report.

Ford had complained the name was similar to its F-150 brand pickup truck, the top-selling vehicle in the U.S.

Toyota says it hasn't chosen a new name for its pickup truck, which will go on sale in April 1999. Toyota will choose an actual name, like its
Tacoma pickup, rather than an alphanumeric designation, said Joe Tetherow, a spokesman for Toyota.

Toyota expects its new pickup -- which will have a 4.7-liter V-8 engine that produces 230 horsepower -- to triple its truck sales.

Production of the new pickup begins this fall at Toyota's new truck plant in Princeton, Indiana. The T100 was produced in Japan.

Brutus · June 1998

230hp from a 4.7L sounds pretty impressive. Are the Big Three getting that kind of hp from their small V-8s? If the price is right, a 230hp 4.7L Toyota might make some noise in the 1/2 ton market. Since Ford sells the most, my guess is they probably have the chance of losing the most market share.

I was starting to wonder if Ford and Toyota were going to clash over the name. Toyota loses points on originality. What next? The Texpedition? The Texplorer? The Tranger?

KCRam · June 1998

Let's see:

Ford 4.6L OHC V8 - 220
Chrys 4.7L OHC V8 - 230
GM 4.8L OHV V8 - 255

I think Toyota hit mainstream instead of raising the benchmark. Add in the fact that you will then be able to move up to a Ford 5.4, a Chrysler 5.5 (in 2000), and a GM 5.3 in the half-ton class, and Toyota still falls back.

Compund the problem with model count:

Toyota
- reg cab, long bed
- ext cab, short bed

all US
- reg cab, short and long bed
- ext cab, short and long bed
Ford and GM also offer stepsides on all short beds

Toyota will be more competitive now than with the T100, but they still fall short and should be aiming at the Dakota (which is a lot more comparable)

Rocles · June 1998

That was only part of the equation. Toyota also has to compete with the numerous trim levels that the Big three churn out. Different rears with a variety of either payload packages and towing levels. The after-market is geared for the Big Three, what about Toy?

sunset · June 1998

I TALKED WITH A TOYOTA DEALER IN JACKSONVILLE, FL YESTERDAY, AND THEY SAID THAT THEY EXPECT TO HAVE T-150'S ON THEIR LOT BY THE END OF NOV 98.

Brutus · June 1998

My guess is that the market Toyota is after is not the current full size truck market. I think they are after the people currently driving small pickups and even those people who are currently driving cars. Rear end and engine options won't be a big factor for those buyers.

If the T-150 is successful, Toyota will probably expand their selection. They are probably just getting their feet wet to see if they are able to compete in this market. If they aren't successful, they can either be satisfied with a small production levels and set up their assembly lines accordingly, or they can bail completely without having committed the capital necessary to jump full tilt into the full size truck market.

jim2 · June 1998

August 1998 issue of Truckin' magazine has a picture of the T150 exterior and interior. One paragraph describes the following:

4.7L 1998 Land Cruiser V8
Four doors with four exterior door handles
To be built in an all-new plant in Indiana
The picture of the interior shows front and rear seat head rests.

I talked to an auto wrecker today who specializes in salvaging interiors from wrecked pickups. I asked if he had seen wrecked pickups with no rear seat head rests where the rear seat occupants heads had actually gone through the rear glass. He told me he sees it often!

Looks like Chevy, GMC and the new Toyota T150 are the only pickups with rear seat head rests as standard equipment. Anyone know the name of a company who sells quality rear seat headrests for Ford and Dodge ext. cab pickups?

eneth · June 1998

Brutus,

Toyota is planning for only about 120,000 full-size pickups at the Indiana plant. There's no way they're going after Ford, GM or Dodge in the numbers game.

I'll bet the next-generation 4Runner will be built in the same plant. While Toyota's no doubt making a killing in profits with the devalued yen, and with 4Runner prices still up there, they get market stability out of it - and also the right to build a 2-door version exempt from the 25% tariff Detroit forced on the Japanese SUVs.

Rocles · June 1998

Typical political clowns. I can't wait for the day that we can relieve all tariffs. Yes, Reagan saved Harley-Davidson but us Americans should be above all of this jingoistic crap! Let Toyota compete and Japan should let the big 2.45 compete fairly. We, as the whole, would all benefit.

Rocles · June 1998

Jim2,
I talked in topic 204 about headrests for your family. The local Ford dealer said that any dealer should be able to help you out. Check it out and let me know how it went.

Huejanus · June 1998

Its all in my name. Read it and you will know what you are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rocles · June 1998

Oh, the kids have the computer again.

mharde2 · July 1998

There was a typo in that statement. It should say; Read it and you will know what I am. Hey, its your name kid...

JDIAZ · July 1998

Funny how a lot of you talk about how many different options you get with the big 3. Also many of you say that a t150 wo'nt pull a horse trailer or an RV......My question to alot of you is how many typical americans have a horse trailers or an RV???? Most people that I work with who own 4x4 trucks don't haul anything but them selfs. So please give it a rest with all this super hauling, super duty and who knows what else.
More than likely most of you are like me. On weekends you make the Home Depot run to do some repairs around the house.

I'm sure there are people in this forum that a Toyota will not meet their needs because they do haul heavy equipment...but the rest of you????

I'm out...........jd

Rocles · July 1998

jd,

Why? Why can't guys talk about towing? The only thing I tow is an air compressor and a motorcycle trailer. Am I insane to talk about towing?
I also own 15 trucks with my roofing firm which leads to discussions of payload,engines, accessories, gas mileage, truck quality, suspension, trannys, prices, and valuable comparisons.
If you took any notice before your ranting, you would see that there are actually FEW topics of towing. Alot are about compact trucks as well. As there should be. If you are not interested in towing, then don't click on to the subjects. There is probably about 30 guys who regularly talk about towing here. 30. Not many when considering how many hit Edmund's Town Hall.
Toyota makes fine trucks--which is never really disputed here. They just don't have the choices yet--that's all. Calm down.

Doccers · August 1998

I'd have to dispute the "Fine Trucks" bit,
3 of my friends have bought Toyo trucks, and all 3 have ended up dumping them for one reason or another. (1 head gasket went, and destroyed the engine block, toyota offered to replace the engine block, his response to that was "No thanks, I'd rather buy a truck that *DIDN'T* need anything replaced"), another blew the gasket, but had it replaced, then the rear axle on his tacoma broke, so he traded it in for a Ranger. The third just got a complete Lemon, and actually got to invoke the colorado lemon law to force toyota to buy his T-100 back, then he got a Dodge Durango.

Toyota makes great cars. But their trucks leave much to be desired, reliability wise, power wise, and cargo capacity wise.

Rocles · August 1998

Doccers,

I don't know about the other two, but the head gasket makes me laugh. Anyone who knows anything about engines knows that head gasket problems correlate to the driver. How old is your friend? He probably was racing the engine everytime he drove it. Big deal. Replace it and drive.

I know too much about engines to be fazed by a "head gasket" problem. Tell your buddy to cool it.

stanford · August 1998

Actually, IIRC, the head gasket seal was a factory problem and produced a recall. Even racing a factory engine shouldn't blow a properly seated head gasket.

cdean · August 1998

normal operating pressures, even when revved to the max are not enough to blow a properly sealed headgasket. The key term is properly sealed. the only way a properly sealed gasket gets blown is if something like: 1)engine overheats, warps head, 2) oil, water or other fluid on top of piston creates tremendous pressure on compression, or 3) cracked head creates pressure in strange place.

Lookout Ford, Dodge, Chevy: Here comes T150

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