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Acura TSX

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  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 236,781
    I hate to say it, but that price doesn't surprise me at all. Figure the new redesigned 2004 TL to come in about $1K higher than it goes for now, that makes it $30.5K. $27K for the TSX that is loaded slots it in about right. No comment on the value side of that equation, though.

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  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    Sticker prices on premium brands usually incorporate a little extra "cushion" (or sometimes a big one) to give the dealer the opportunity to deal on the car and still make a decent profit.

    The ~$27,000 sticker isn't a surprise to me, since Acura is marketing the TSX agaist some higher-priced metal. I think the price is in line with what people shopping in this segment would expect, particularly in light of the standard kit level.

    As usual, value can only be determined by the person signing the check.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    That's about $500 more than I was hoping, but not outrageous in the least. One poster in that thread mentioned the possibility that the price includes destination charges. It's been a while since I bothered to look at stickers (what good are they...). Anyone know if that's true of Acura?
  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    I would tend to think that MSRP always includes destination, since you usually hear "tax, tags, and title extra" after you hear the price.

    Could be mistaken, though.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    They'll go I'm sure.
  • algie_fawkesalgie_fawkes Member Posts: 14
    Well now, honestly can you say that this new tri-lettered Acura can really be worth that many $$$'s more than the Sebring sedan? Chrysler is too often left out of these discussions, probably because people think they are unreliable. But, if you have been reading the news these past years...Chrysler has actually been rated as good as BMW and better than Mercedes by none other than Consumer Reports, the same publication that lambasted past Chryslers for their reliability issues.

    The Chrysler sebring is a beautiful car, and has a sweet intereior. It is worth a look. and yes, it does have 200hp...and I can bet that it has more torque than the Acura. what do you all think?
  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    It doesn't offer the same chassis dynamics as the TSX, and also lacks the Acura's brand cachet and overall refinement.

    With all the recent action in the mid-sized sedan category (Altima, Mazda6, new Accord, fresh Camry), the Sebring has fallen off the radar for a lot of folks.

    Not to knock on the Sebring, but it really doesn't play in the same league as the TSX.
  • bbartlow1bbartlow1 Member Posts: 22
    200 ponies from a 2.4 Four? Nice. But something tells me the Accord 2.4 will last longer, and maybe lots. Although probably not a factor for those who keep'em under 200,000 miles.

    Take care, you canyon carvin' devils...
  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    The '96 Integra LS I owned needed a top-end rebuild at 221,000 miles (new valves, springs, and other goodies).

    The car that replaced it, a '98 Integra GS-R (170hp from 1.8L), was driven much harder than the LS, and now has 226K on the clock.

    The GS-R has yet to use a drop of oil since its break-in period.

    The DOHC VTEC engines are built to tighter tolerances, employ oil-jet piston cooling, and usually incorporate some fairly exotic materials in the block and cylinder walls (carbon fiber and ceramics).

    All things being equal, I think a DOHC VTEC engine will last longer than one that's SOHC VTEC simply because it's essentially over-built.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I was making a comparison between the relative EFFECTIVENESS of struts vs. wishbones, not a comparison of COST.

    You're partially correct. You don't always bring in cost, especially when you talk about BMW. Then it just comes down to tuning and packaging and how well BMW engineers can tune what they have got to play with.

    Struts work better in BMWs and Porsches

    Double wishbones wouldn't? Given same tuning effort, do you think double wishbones will make a difference?

    Given the comparable interior dimensions of the Civic and TSX, your reasoning indicates that perhaps Acura should've gone ahead and used struts, too.

    Did you notice me whine about the interior volume of TSX? For me, it is large enough car, and the couple of inches lost in the cabin as a compromise in favor of a sophisticated suspension layout doesn't bug me, but to some, apparently it does!

    You seem to be continually confused about the fact that the TSX is a FWD vehicle and the 3-series is RWD.
    I will give TSX a serious look when the purchase time comes. If it turns out to be a great package for my needs (and that doesn't include driving on a race track), it will be my choice over Accord or just about any car in the price class. TSX appears to have enough standard features and more than enough handling capability for my needs on a daily basis. FWD versus RWD debate is pretty much useless, and often used as an excuse, IMO. It is the package that counts, for me. TSX promises to deliver a good one at a good price in a competitive class.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I'm not surprised at $26,530 as the MSRP since Acura/Honda typically has $460 destination charge, which is indicated in the post by heisnstein. This also means the invoice would be close to $24K. The MSRP on the next TL may go up be $300-400, which would place TSX about $3K south of its more luxurious sibling.

    bbartlow1
     200 ponies from a 2.4 Four? Nice. But something tells me the Accord 2.4 will last longer, and maybe lots.
    Prelude had 200 HP from 2.2 four. Sure, the redline in this variant of K24A is 7100 rpm compared to 6500 rpm in Accord, but a few things must be considered. One, who would drive past 3500 rpm forever? Two, higher revving engines are not built to the same specs and tolerance as their lower revving counterparts. And three, 7100 rpm is not too lofty for Honda, even the Accord V6 redlines at 6800 rpm, the TL/CL Type-S V6 goes to 6900 rpm.
  • jfavourjfavour Member Posts: 105
    I initially thought the rumored price was a bit high. Then I thought about the fact that the MT and AT versions are the same base price. Usually the auto transmission adds about $1k to the otherwise base price. Given the fact that 2/3rds of the potential buyers are projected to choose the AT, the price doesn't seem as bad. It hurts those who want a MT, but probably won't affect AT buyers value perception as much. If the pricing had been say $25,990 for the MT with a $1,000 optional AT, would that have been more palatable for people? I have read many times on these edmunds boards where people would post that they would be willing to pay more to get a manual option on certain cars (the TL comes to mind). Well here's the opportunity to put your money where your mouth (or post, as the case may be) is.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    That is one that I hadn't considered. Thanks for bringing it up.

    In truth, I've never driven the latest Sebring. However, everything I can recall about it leads me to expect that it's more of a touring car than a canyon carver. I doubt it would be able to handle the twisties the way a TSX will. By the same token, the TSX won't match the ease of acceleration that the Sebring probably has with 190 lb-ft motivating it. It's just a different kind of sport.

    In all ways, but styling, I think the Accord, Altima, and others are closer to the Sebring. I mentioned it before, but I think the Grand Am is another car that represents a TSX alternative in this "kinda-sorta" way.
  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    You're napping again. For your benefit alone, I repeat:

    BMW and Porsche could use wishbones if they wanted to charge more for what are already expensive cars (as you're keen to point out), but then they'd have to either reduce the size of the passenger compartment, or make the car larger to provide room for them.

    Whether it's a sports car or a sports sedan, making a car larger usually means more weight, and more weight means less sport.

    Even paragons of performance reflect some compromises in engineering and cost-savings.

    Based upon your apparent ignorance (IMO) of the differences between FWD and RWD, particularly in a car billed as a "performance" model, I'm fairly confident that you haven't spent much time behind the wheel of a sport-minded, RWD car. Bear in mind that the 3-series is recognized as "the" sport sedan benchmark for a reason.

    The TSX looks to be a good amount of car for the price, so I'm sure you'll be very happy with your TSX, should you choose to own one. I do find it telling, however, that you're more focused on Xenon headlights and interior appointments than on which wheels drive the car.

    We obviously have different priorities. To you, the TSX represents a decent value. To me, it looks like I'm being asked to pay extra for a bunch of doo-dads that I could just as easily enjoy the car without.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Didn't Ford offer as a N/C option a 5 sp on the Focus Wagon when everyone moaned about automatic only? I see it is now an -$815 option, but it's an option.

    Of course, I don't know the real numbers but if volume on an automatic is high enough it could actually cost more to develop, design, and manufacture a manual transmission.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Pretty much all recent rumors predicted 26-30K for MSRP. If $26.5K is the base price (plus $460 destination), then that's right on target. Add $2K for nav, and even $1K for the auto transmission you're still under the $30K ceiling. I don't see the reason for sticker shock.
  • stretchsjestretchsje Member Posts: 700
    manuals have to be developed for Europe anyway.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    ...the sticker shock is because Acura said prices would be somewhere between $25 and $30. People only paid attention to the first number.

    Those in sales at my company have taken to quoting lead times in this manner: 3-2 weeks. People only hear the first number.

    Is it a value at $27K? We'll soon find out.

    It was funny that someone at some other place said that perhaps Acura priced it high to maintain an aura of exclusivity and the writer was happy about it. He didn't want to buy a TSX just to see another one on the road painted yellow with an F1 spoiler on it.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    ...re MT. I was just throwing it out there as food for thought. If the vehicle is developed strictly for NA consumption and does not share a common drivetrain, I could see the cost of developing a manual to be too high to make economic sense.
  • nicdmxnicdmx Member Posts: 35
    http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv3.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt- _id=302621&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=113261&bmUID=10474196870- 59

    Unfortunately chrysler is still below average. Personally it would take an act of god for me to consider anything made directly by the big 3. I guess I grew up with Japanese cars and was indoctrinated into thinking american cars just don't compare...
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    himiler
    You're napping again.
    May be it is your posts that are so predictable.

    BMW and Porsche could use wishbones if they wanted to charge more for what are already expensive cars (as you're keen to point out), but then they'd have to either reduce the size of the passenger compartment, or make the car larger to provide room for them.
    Good.

    Based upon your apparent ignorance (IMO) of the differences between FWD and RWD, particularly in a car billed as a "performance" model, I'm fairly confident that you haven't spent much time behind the wheel of a sport-minded, RWD car. Bear in mind that the 3-series is recognized as "the" sport sedan benchmark for a reason.
    With Sport Package, or without? :-)

    For the rest, let us not judge each other. Like I said, RWD versus FWD argument is useless to me. If a car has more than enough handling to go in a package that feels right for the price, its my kind of car. Driving wheels? No, it is a trivial aspect to me.

    I do find it telling, however, that you're more focused on Xenon headlights and interior appointments than on which wheels drive the car.
    And you thought I was napping. No, I don't need xenons, but I brought it up to counter an argument about lack of power seat for the passenger as an available feature.

    We obviously have different priorities. To you, the TSX represents a decent value. To me, it looks like I'm being asked to pay extra for a bunch of doo-dads that I could just as easily enjoy the car without.
    Point taken.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    This would be the third Honda/Acura in recent days to have identical pricing. CL Type-S was first, with 6MT or with 5MT. However, with the manual transmission LSD was added, besides some cosmetic changes.

    Accord Coupe 3.0 V6 was next, with identical pricing for 5AT or 6MT. This time, however, 6MT added sport suspension including lower profile tires on 17" rim.

    With TSX, I wonder if there are any feature differences between the two transmission options.
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    Withholding car pricing until the cars appear on dealers lots says a lot about how Acura views the car's value.

    - Mark
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Explain??
  • stretchsjestretchsje Member Posts: 700
    Interesting perspective- has Acura done this before?

    Clearly, they're not promoting the car as having value as much as prestige.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    "By the same token, the TSX won't match the ease of acceleration that the Sebring probably has with 190 lb-ft motivating it. It's just a different kind of sport"

    this may be true, but chrylser products seem to have good hp and torque numbers on paper that don't match up with actual street performance. also factor in a much better 5 speed automatic.

    "In all ways, but styling, I think the Accord, Altima, and others are closer to the Sebring. I mentioned it before, but I think the Grand Am is another car that represents a TSX alternative in this "kinda-sorta" way"

    true, the sebring is closer to those cars than the tsx. but the accord, camry, mazda6 and passat are still much better cars. as for the grand am comparison, what have you been smoking?
  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    Acura is obviously familiar with the marketing phrase, "Sell the sizzle, not the steak."

    You certainly can't blame them, as there is nothing wrong with trying to build a bit of anticipation about the release of the TSX.

    Besides, their strategy is working, no mean feat considering the relatively small number of TSX buyers out there.
  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    I couldn't agree more about the Pontiac Grand Ma. It's kind of sad, really, how people buy into that ad line, "Solid Body Design," or some such hash.

    Check this link for the naked truth in advertising:
    http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/99026.htm

    Ouch.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "true, the sebring is closer to those cars than the tsx. but the accord, camry, mazda6 and passat are still much better cars."

    No argument here. I was just making category differentiations, not ranking them within the category.

    " as for the grand am comparison, what have you been smoking?

    Well, the Grand AM is supposed to be sporty. And Pontiac is supposed to be a step up from your average GM. The fact that it fails miserably in both areas does not appear to concern many people. They sold more than 10K of them last month.

    Perhaps I should have put even more emphasis on the "kinda-sorta" in the first post.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Robr - Yeah, I know that early predictions from the auto show circuit started at $25K, but more recent rumors pointed toward a start of $26K. While I don't post over there, I do follow a number of threads at ClubTSX. They knew about the 26K quotes.

    Regardless, any time I see a number like $20K (for example), I know what they really mean is $20,999.99.
  • bbartlow1bbartlow1 Member Posts: 22
    I agree that Honda is up to the challenge of a high output four. (Although why don't we see many old Ludes with big miles?) Robert makes a good point of listing other Honda products with high redlines, although keep in mind many of those are 6 cylinder. You'll need to stand on the TSX four bagger a little harder, a little longer to get the same juice delivered to those tasty 17inchers. To me, it's simple math: RPM = wear. Even if it averages 3300 RPM instead of 2800, friction eventually does its magic.
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    My comment was that if Acura viewed the value of the TSX as a feature, then they'd have annouced the price months ago and we wouldn't be schlepping around on car carriers peaking at window stickers for cars about to be delivered. They're deferring the issue as long as possible, because it is an issue.

    - Mark
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    The Accord 4-cylinder is also a 2.4L DOHC i-vtec engine developing 160 hp/161 lbs/ft of torque. It is not an SOHC, as in previous generations. This can run on regular fuel (due to lower compression ratio of 9.7), as opposed to the TSX (compression ratio 10.5) that requires premium fuel. The lower compression ratio also means that the Accord is equipped with a less stressed engine.

    If mileage is a criteria, then the Accord 4-cylinder has around 26mpg city/34mpg hwy vs the TSX figures of 21mpg city / 29mpg hwy (both manual).

    Both the Accord 4-cylinder and the TSX are assembled in Sayama, Saitama, Japan.

    Later...AH
  • iceman16iceman16 Member Posts: 38
    "We obviously have different priorities. To you, the TSX represents a decent value. To me, it looks like I'm being asked to pay extra for a bunch of doo-dads that I could just as easily enjoy the car without."

    You are obviously not impressed by the concept of the TSX, never mind the execution. So I have to ask, why are you here, participating in a forum about this particular car?
  • stretchsjestretchsje Member Posts: 700
    Since when is liking a car a criteria for discussing it? If that were the case, all these discussions would be boring!

    I'm disappointed with the loss of the Integra and Prelude in leu of cars like the Accord Coupe and TSX. If they're replaced by even more refined, less-exciting vehicles, Honda will end up lagging behind Toyota in the race to make boring cars for old people. That's where the money is, but that's not where long-lasting impressions are made.

    The TSX, I believe, is an example of this, for the reasons given in this thread since it's conception.

    This once-exciting brand is starting to fade- at least to my peers and I. We're a young group. Ten years ago, Toyota made some of the most exciting cars around at any price- yet they were affordable (hence obtainable). The MR2 and Supra are to this day unrivaled in many ways! But where is Toyota now- they're considered by many to be a japanese Buick. Sure, they sell, and Toyota makes FANTASTIC cars, but they're not a brand I get excited about anymore. When Nissan, BMW, Mazda, or even Chrysler issue a press release- I get excited. Not so with Honda- I care, and look forward to them (as they are technologically impressive), but taste vanilla in the end.

    Do you really think Honda is keeping an exciting image?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Definition of "exciting cars" might help. What criteria do you use to classify cars between "vanilla" and "no-vanilla"?
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    understood. i thought about what you might of meant after i made the post. my mistake.

    mark: honda (or anybody else) never announces prices of cars "months" ahead of time. but honda has clearly known for some time what they're going to charge for the car and it's a mystery why they're waiting so long to make the announcement. many reviews have touted the value of the car and with only 15k made per year, i doubt that they're worrying about the price being too high. if i'm able to get the tsx with a big discount because the price is considered too high, i won't complain though. but i'm afraid that's not going to be the case.
  • stretchsjestretchsje Member Posts: 700
    ...and in some cases it might not even be logical. Nonetheless, Honda's vehicles of late do nothing to excite me while driving- not like their older ones. There's no sense in defining it- it's strictly personal emotion. You can't define what "love" is either, but you know what love isn't.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    in what ways are the tsx and accord coupe less exciting than the integra? if less road noise and more refinement while adding better performance creates a boring car, then i like boring cars.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Good automakers will engineer higher stress engines with higher tolerances. This can come from strengthened components and/or from subtle differences in the design itself.

    Integra's 1.8 liter DOHC had two variations in the mainstream offerings. LS/GS had the 140 HP DOHC engine. And there was the GS-R version, delivering 170 HP. These variations had their differences in the basic design (GS-R version came with a reinforced honey-comb cylinder lining), just one of the several examples out there today.

    Between Accord and TSX, while the latter gets 200 HP from basically the same engine (K24A), it does so with help from stronger torque curve (higher and wider). While Accord gets 160 HP at 5500 rpm, TSX would get to the 160 HP mark earlier and delivers 170+ HP at 5500 rpm, 180+ HP at 6000 rpm, and unlike the rapidly falling torque curve in Accord's version, the fall in TSX version is slower resulting in more power. The redline difference is only 600 rpm. For the rest, be assured that extra tolerance is already built into the TSX version.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I can define Love, as well as Excitement, because I understand both. I don't know of words that I like to use frequently to make a point if I can't define it.
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    The Integra GSR engine that developed 170 HP was a DOHC VTEC engine. The regular Integra (RS,LS,GS) used a non-vtec DOHC engine that developed 140 HP. The torque in both engines, was within a couple of numbers of each other. GSR, due to its high compression, needed premium fuel. The GSR engine was slightly smaller, even though both were categorised as 1.8L. A friend has a 1994 Integra LS (140HP) that just crossed 285K miles and running like the day he bought it. He plans to use it for another couple of 100K miles.

    The TSX and the Accord 4-cylinder on the other hand, have identical designs, with both being DOHC i-vtec engines, with the exact same displacement. Both engines are also built on the same plant and assembly line in Japan. i-vtec engines by their very design are designed to retain good torque throughout the rev band. The higher compression in the TSX engine, allows it to rev higher and develop more power, with premium fuel. With regular fuel, the TSX engine would develop noticeably less power (and possibly knock), since its higher compression needs premium fuel to develop its rated power capacity. But personally, I prefer a lower compression engine that can run with regular fuel, with much less compression stress, especially when they are of the exact same design, built by the same maker on the same production line. This is not saying that the TSX engine would not last as long as the Accord engine.

    But speculating about "extra tolerance already built into the TSX engine" (I assume this means that "extra tolerance" is lacking in the DOHC i-VTEC Accord engine) is garbage without some documented substantiation. I would guess that the Accord and the TSX have identical amount of tolerance built in, with the TSX (due to its higher compression) having adequate tolerance while the Accord DOHC i-vtec engine (with less stress due to lower compression) having additional reserve tolerance due to its lower compression. Either way, both engines will last well into multiple 100K miles.

    Later...AH
  • iceman16iceman16 Member Posts: 38
    Stretch, I have to agree with you. The new TSX looks to be one of those over-engineered cars that Honda is famous for building (.27 Cd? only an engineer would care), but the styling is so plain that no one will do a double-take when walking past it. I like plain a heckuva lot better than ugly, so I choose the TSX over the Accord (if I can get my price), but I like A4 or 325 much better than TSX for exterior styling.
    Honda itself admitted this was a problem for them. When they announced the new Accord, they talked about how they were trying to get people emotionally involved in their cars. They wanted something other than a "good appliance" reaction from people. Well, try again fellas.
  • drivinisfundrivinisfun Member Posts: 372
    Remember Honda in the 1980's? Every single car they produced on that decade was a model of innovation and technical marvel.

    Today Honda is nothing more but yet another ordinary automaker. Cars made to please the crowds, not the enthusiast. Other than the S2000 and NSX there are no lower priced RWD offerings. No V8 engines either.

    Since Honda's death in the mid 1990's, this company has not been the same. Now the motto is to "play" safe. Today Honda designs and builds vehicles to please their existing fan/customer base but they fail to attract buyers that have awaken from the "Honda Trance" of years past and have moved to higher automotive leves of the stratosphere = Read other Japanese automakers and the Germans.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Is the Element safe?
  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    The DOHC i-VTEC in the Accord does feature VTEC on the intake cam, but not on the exhaust side as in the TSX. Same story in the RSX -- similar block design, different heads.

    DOHC VTEC indicates VTEC on both sides of the valvetrain. Given the higher compression ratios in DOHC VTEC engines, expect that higher tolerances are required and built-in.
  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    I participate in this forum because I enjoy the interchange that we all share. The fact that some posts are somewhat terse only provides further proof that we all have a genuine interest in discussing the TSX and other Honda/Acura products in general.

    My "mission" in this forum (and others that I post in) is the same as yours -- to offer opinions and insights, and hopefully gain knowledge about cars that I'm interested in. The fact that I would not consider the TSX for purchase doesn't mean that I'm disinterested in it, it just means that I'm going to critique it through the prism of my own experiences and expectations, just as you do.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    under wraps until right before the introduction. No one knew exactly how much the Accord was going to cost until it hit the ground. in fact no one even knoew exactly what it was even goinig to look like until less than a month before the intro. The lack of pricing info does not surprise me.
  • iceman16iceman16 Member Posts: 38
    fair enough.
  • nedzelnedzel Member Posts: 787
    bbartlow1: I wouldn't worry about wear on the TSX engine. The engine will likely last much longer than you'll keep the car. I purchased my '86 Integra new and sold it after 135,000 miles. The main problem at that time was body rust around the rear wheel wells. The engine still ran fine, did not burn any oil, and had good compression in all 4 cylinders. There were no significant engine repairs required during that period (other than the usual preventative maintenance of replacing the timing belts and adjusting the valves).

    Personally, I prefer a lower-reving 6 with lots of torque to a high-reving 4. I agree with those that think this car is oddly positioned, with the price of the 4-cylinder TSX about equal to that of the 6-cylinder Accord EX. But I don't worry at all about the 4-cylinder TSX engine wearing out.

    Regarding old Preludes not being around, I think they suffered the same thing that my Integra did -- body rust. I sold mine in 1999. My guess is the buyer kept it for a few more years, basically driving it into the ground. The cost to repair the body rust would have been well in excess of the value of the car.
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