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Acura TSX

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Comments

  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    Think about that one for a minute. One car platform can't possibly span this range of cars. Nissan is probably going the furthest in this regard by having their FM platform span the 350Z to the G35, but the 350Z is a long ways from an S2000 and the G35 is a long ways from a 5-series competitor.

    I'd like to see Honda take a run at a RWD sports-sedan too, but if they want to have RWD cover everything from a lightweight sports car to a mid-size luxury cruisers, they're probably going to have to convert three platforms over to RWD, something that is prohibitively expensive.

    - Mark
  • sunilbsunilb Member Posts: 407
    with all of this discussion about weight and power, etc. I just wonder if most of the people complaining would be better suited to the upcoming RX-8--- it's got RWD, 4 doors (sort-of), better weight distribution, lighter, the luxury options are options, and there is price overlap (I believe you will be able to get one for $25K - $32K).

    To me, it seems like many of the current concerns with the TSX on this board would be addressed with this vehicle.
  • chillenhondachillenhonda Member Posts: 105
    good point markjenn
    that is stretching it a bit

    Without the 5-series competitor it might work with the other 4 platforms. Then at that size and price point, maybe Acura's upcoming all-wheel drive RL might work well.
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    I agree with sunib. The RX-8 is remarkably light for its capabilities.

    If you go down the list of 4-seaters which compete with the TSX, they are generally close to or heavier than the TSX. 3200-3700 lbs is just what it takes these days to build a rigid, luxurious, safety-equipped sports sedan. The TSX is actually at the low-end of the range. Heck, the A4 is nearly 3800 lbs, the BMW 3400, and the IS is 3400. The RX-8 is a noteable exception, provided you are willing to accept its abbreviated doors as a substitute for a true sedan.

    I'll go a step further. Those of you who want a V6 TSX really should take a long look at the Mazda 6s. It's got the 220-hp/195-ft-lb V6, weighs about what a TSX V6 would weigh, probably handles about like a TSX V6 would handle, has a MSRP of about $25.5K fully-loaded, and can be bargained into the $23K range, thus addressing the value concern. (If you have graduated from college recently, you can get another $500 off your best deal.) Fit/finish is perhaps down a notch, but not by much. Reliability is likely to be as good, especially since its been in production longer. About the only thing I see that is a significant issue is the lack of nav, but that should be alleviated in six-months.

    If you want a more powerful TSX, or a lighter TSX, you might want to head on down to the Mazda dealer folks. They have your cars!

    - Mark
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...there are people here with far too much time on their hands.

    Again, thanks for the contributions of people who have actually driven the car...
  • stretchsjestretchsje Member Posts: 700
    ...is a car I can't wait to drive, and soon own if my current car ends up reselling high.

    Now THAT is a car that has its priorities straight, and walks the walk rather than talking the talk.

    Though, the RX-8 discussion on this board aren't nearly as fun :)
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    was specifically called out for having to do high rpm clutch dumps to get real performance out of.
  • stretchsjestretchsje Member Posts: 700
    Gee: "was specifically called out for having to do high rpm clutch dumps to get real performance out of."

    No, not performance. 0-60 acceleration. Performance-wise, the RX-8 was picked as the overall winner against the G35coupe. The whole beauty of the RX-8 is that the dang thing corners so well, you won't have to re-accellerate.
  • ameen6ameen6 Member Posts: 16
    I own a fully loaded Mazda 6 with a 5spd MT, such as the one you speak of in your post. I have had it for about 3 months now and I love it. For the price ($23,500) I think this is a wonderful sport sedan.

    In your post you said:

    "Those of you who want a V6 TSX really should take a long look at the Mazda 6s. It's got the 220-hp/195-ft-lb V6, weighs about what a TSX V6 would weigh"

    A Mazda6 V6 weighs 3241 lbs, that’s only 11 lbs heavier than the 3230 lb TSX. The Mazda6 4 cylinder weighs about 3050 lbs.

    Another advantage the Mazda6 has over the TSX is size. @91 cubic ft of interior volume, the TSX is about as roomy as a Honda Civic. @96 cubic feet the Mazda6 is considerably roomier, especially in the back. I'm puzzled about the TSX excessive weight. Compared to the Mazda6 it has 20 less HP, 26 less lb\ft of torque, 5 less cubic ft of interior volume, yet it has no weight advantage. Also don't forget the Mazda6 does not require premium fuel such as the TSX does.

    Although, I have not driven a TSX (only sat in one) I would venture to say that it's biggest advantage over the Mazda6 is going to be drive quality, i.e. crisper shifter, less road noise and wind noise and a more refined engine. One of my complaints of the Mazda6 is excessive road and engine noise. I think the V6 could be more refined. And I agree, the fit and finish of the TSX is a notch above that of the Mazda6.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Stretchsje
    Which takes about 160lbs of that, lifts them from the front axle, and moves it to the rear...

    If it is about chassis dynamics, the chassis setup is supposed to handle it, just like you would see in an RSX Type-S or Integra Type-R or whatever.
    If it is about being underpowered, well, believe me, with 50-50 split, the engine isn't carrying half of the car.

    The whole beauty of the RX-8 is that the dang thing corners so well, you won't have to re-accellerate.
    Hehe, kinda like Integra Type-R! C&D once pitted three cars from Speed World Challenge on a track to discover that the lighter and more agile ITR was carrying greater speeds around the corners than the more powerful (216 HP versus 435-455 HP) cars (Corvette C5 and Saleen). It was getting beaten in the straights though.

    markjenn
    I have long wished that Honda would develop a RWD platform, if not for anything but, to demonstrate the raw performance that they did with launch of S2000 in 1999, or with NSX in 1989 and please the crowd that drives their cars at 10/10 all day.

    You're right, just one platform could address it, but as a company, Honda may not have an interest in expanding or coming up with a new facility with hope that the returns will be justified. We can talk about it all day, but in the end it is a business decision. If they feel the need, I am sure they will do it.

    I see AWD as a good alternative to address the issue, not unlike Audi's stand. For example, Acura could offer FWD TL with 260 HP for $30-32K, and then provide a Type-S model with AWD and 300 HP for $34-36, they would have covered both grounds and then some (without having to alienate some snow belt buyers who may not consider RWD cars).
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    "By using a CVT to take advantage of its powerful 6-7k rpm narrow band, it may sound boring, literally"

    not that i driven the car at those rpms (salesmen wouldn't of liked that), but the tsx has a linear power curve. not sure what you mean about a narrow power band at 6-7k rpm.

    robertsmx: you are so right. if the tsx had a v6 with 166 lb-ft with a broad torque band, there wouldn't be all this fuss about the 4 cylinder.
  • bodble2bodble2 Member Posts: 4,514
    get tiresome as a daily transport mighty quickly.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Is like S2000 with additional 150-200 lb. to carry.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Acura only wants to sell 15,000 of these. Isn't that right about where Mazda is on the Mazda6 after 6 months.

    I couldn't help it.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Honda sells more Accords in two weeks than they plan to sell TSX in one year.

    BTW, here are engine dynos for reference. Note: TSX dyno is for JDM spec K24A, rated at 200 HP @ 6800 rpm, 171 lb.-ft (232 Nm). So, Acura may be underrating the TSX engine.

    K24A Dyno: TSX
    F23A/K24A Dyno: Accord

    It is clear that the TSX version delivers a minimum of 90% of the peak torque from 2000 rpm to 7000 rpm. 95% or more appears to be available just past 2500 to a shade under 6500 rpm.

    2003 Accord's version is closer only at its peak, and certainly not as strong at low rpm range. 1998-02 Accord's I-4 (appears in the second dyno) pumped maximum of 152 lb.-ft at 4700 rpm. By comparison, TSX is delivering as much torque at 2000 rpm (besides the point that it also uses 10% shorter gearing comparing auto to auto).
  • stretchsjestretchsje Member Posts: 700
    If it is about chassis dynamics, the chassis setup is supposed to handle it, just like you would see in an RSX Type-S or Integra Type-R or whatever.

    It's not about chassis dynamics, really. It's about what any chassis, no matter how well designed, can do with the weight it is supporting. No matter how strong, stiff, or well-designed, a 3300lb FWD car will never begin to approach the kind of nimbleness the 2650lb Integra had.

    The Integra was brilliant because it had a capable design for a FWD car, but it was lightweight. As you mentioned, it beat some supercars around a track. My beef is that those looking for the same performance in the TSX won't get it because of, simply, weight.

    Hehe, kinda like Integra Type-R! C&D once pitted three cars from Speed World Challenge on a track to discover that the lighter and more agile ITR was carrying greater speeds around the corners than the more powerful (216 HP versus 435-455 HP) cars (Corvette C5 and Saleen). It was getting beaten in the straights though.

    Weight, I'd argue, is the single most important aspect of a sporty, nimble car.

    Is like S2000 with additional 150-200 lb. to carry.

    I think the difference is right around 125lbs, from memory. Pretty close, but still there. No doubt the RX-8 is not a true sports car, either, as the S2000 is. Mazda themselves is the first to shout that. That extra weight comes from adding two doors and two seats, as well. Imagine when they remove those, shrink the chassis, and stiffen the springs for the next sports car: the RX-7!!!

    Thanks for the dyno stuff, 'bout to look at it.

    "A Geeism". I like that :)
  • musicman12musicman12 Member Posts: 10
    I'm out of the loop for two days and I have to spend an hour reading to catch up!

    I have a question for the more experienced among us: what does a typical Acura go for compared to MSRP? I'd like to get a TSX I think, but I don't want to spend more than $25k (no nav, 6 speed). I can wait a year or so before I buy, but will the price really come down into the 24s? I know the dealer will give me some line about "paying for the Acura name..." but I'd rather get some other opinions first.

    Should I wait, or should I go visit a Honda or Mazda dealer to look at Accords and 6's? I suppose I could go the pre-owned route...what do you think?
  • steve_onsteve_on Member Posts: 70
    Checked out the TSX, liked it but not the price tag.

    I currently drive a 91 Accord SE, want to replace and would not mind a 4 door, but the 03 4 door is just too darn big. So for me the TSX is the small Accord I want, but not at that price.

    Besides Acura badges, is the TSX really more than a European Accord ?

    If the price comes down to near list, maybe, otherwise it's an 03 coupe or a Mazda 6 in the future for me.
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    Acruas have similar margins to Hondas so you can expect similar discounts: none for high-demand models, modest for lower-demand models.

    Who knows what price will do, but I think $1K or so off might (or might not) be doable in six-months. Having said, this, most markets will get MSRP or token amounts off. So if $26K is attractive, you might want to wait and see what happens.

    If you're looking for sub-$25K, I'd get something else - this is right at dealer's cost and isn't likely to happen ever.

    - Mark
  • bsum70bsum70 Member Posts: 37
    I still think pricing is the biggest problem..... I know it is much cheaper for Honda/Acura to market and make the car 'one size fits all'. Would Acura able to sell more with a cheaper version (minus all those luxury items)?? May be, may be not. I am sure if they can lower the price to $25,000, almost all the critisms about the car will go away.... Just ask yourself would you buy it if it is $25,000?? I will for sure!!
  • myq6_14myq6_14 Member Posts: 5
    Just wanted to point some stuff out:
    1) @ 2200 rpm, the accord produces ~150 lb-ft of torque, which is 90% of the 166 lb-ft that the TSX produces. So the torque delivery should be comparable except that the TSX delivers a bit more at every RPM. (The scales are different making the accord's engine look more peaky)

    2) The TSX and 4cyl accord use almost the exact same transmission ratios except for third gear
    -------TSX----4cyl Accord
    1st----2.652-----2.652
    2nd----1.517-----1.517
    3rd----1.082-----1.307
    4th----0.773-----0.738
    5th----0.566-----0.566
    Final--4.440-----4.437

    IMO, the TSX's ~4% gain in torque over the accord ex 4cyl (166 vs 160) is negated by the ~5% increase in weight (3318 vs 3166). So in normal driving conditions, the TSX will accelerate very similarly to an accord (unless you take it above 5000 RPM).
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    They certainly could sell the six-speed car for $25K with:

    - cloth upholstery
    - manual adjusting/unheated seats
    - no sunroof

    Something tells me that this version would suffer the same "value criticism" as the current fully-optioned car with even more carping about the car being unworthy of the Acura name.

    - Mark
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Then it will be plenty spritely AND tractable. The 03 Accord can be driven all day below 3000 rpm. Pulls nicely from 1500 rpm. And still can pull off 7.5 sec 0-60. Considering the times of mostof the TSX's competition, still looks like it's right there in the hunt.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I agree about having to take the car out on the highway and really flog it, but the car simply didn't accelerate enough for me, from a stoplight. After I noticed that I didn't have any desire to take it out on the interstate. Around here even 80mph isn't always fast enough. The handling is there as are most other elements of a good car, but it simply doesn't have the get up. I can't imagine how hard the TSX has to work to pull 3 people around and some luggage. It's a nice car in need of a better engine.

    M
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    venus537 Apr 15, 2003 (6:11 pm)
    "By using a CVT to take advantage of its powerful 6-7k rpm narrow band, it may sound boring, literally"

    "not that i driven the car at those rpms (salesmen wouldn't of liked that), but the tsx has a linear power curve. not sure what you mean about a narrow power band at 6-7k rpm."

    Linear but skinny, therefore not fat enough to show some "real punch" before 6k rpm for the weight of this car. Otherwise...
  • jay108jay108 Member Posts: 52
    My Acura dealer sell new for $27.5 So I bet he'll sell TSXs under $25.

    I'm going to go over the BMW 3 series discussion and claim the Hyundai Elantra is better than the BMW 325; of course I don't believe such a claim, I just like to what kind of rebuttal I get.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    jay108, that kind of behavior isn't appreciated in the Town Hall.
  • phild_masonphild_mason Member Posts: 99
    Pricing will of course be a function of supply and demand. If Acura chooses to keep the TSX exclusive can they can pretty easily. The TSX is built on the same line as the Euro/Japanese Accord. Too many TSX's in the pipeline, just build Accords. The current 2 or 3 per dealers will keep the price at sticker.

    That of course takes care of supply, the demand is up for grabs. When I stopped by the dealer Sat, they were out of TSX brochures and had to get some more.

    As I noted before, the current TL pricing is drifting down to the TSX range. When the new TL comes out look for a firesale on TL's. There are a lot of them out there. Big dealers have 50 or 60 in stock. I think there will be a fair number of people choosing a TL over the TSX.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    No matter how strong, stiff, or well-designed, a 3300lb FWD car will never begin to approach the kind of nimbleness the 2650lb Integra had.

    I agree with that. But TSX is neither replacing Integra sedan nor is a 4-door RSX (the Integra). It uses a higher end foundation and shares it all with Accord and the upcoming TL. Here is something you may find interesting. Honda is offering two 'Sport' variations of Accord in Japan.

    Accord 24S: 2.4 liter I-4 (K24A), 200 HP @ 6800 rpm, 171 lb.-ft @ 4500 rpm, 5-speed Sport Shift auto (no manual offered). This car weighs 3250 to 3300 lb. (based on options).

    Accord Euro-R: 2.0 liter I-4 (K20A), 220 HP @ 8000 rpm, 152 lb.-ft @ 6000 rpm, 6-speed manual (no auto offered). This car has a curb weight of 3050 lb (it is well equipped, unlike Type-R).

    Do you notice a 200 lb. difference in weight? Choice of engine stands out more than anything between the two as one of the reasons why Euro-R is lighter and more track oriented although Honda claims that chassis tuning is nearly identical.

    Weight does play a role in overall feel, and lighter is always better. However, I have also seen test reviews where Accord Type-R (about 3000 lb.) has been compared to Integra Type-R by some European magazines and they felt that the ATR was more refined and felt more planted. Remember, they were 500 lb. apart in terms of curb weight.

    TSX is based on Accord 24S, but with options as standard features. Cars aren't getting lighter. Why do you think BMW M3 weighs 3450 lb. while a BMW 318ti may be 500-600 lb. lighter (I have not bothered to look up for the exact curb weight)? As a matter of fact, TSX is fairly comparable to BMW 5-series in terms of size, so do we expect TSX to weigh 2650 lb. while 525 is about 3500 lb? And before you come up with weight split program, realize that this is about curb weight of the car. Why must a compact car like M5 weigh about 4000 lb.? I do know that M5 uses a 5.0 liter V8, but I can guarantee that the engine alone isn't adding an additional 500 lb. on top of the 2.5 liter I-6. Could it be the need for stronger chassis for added refinement in handling?

    Like I mentioned earlier, the easiest fix to weight of TSX would have been uses of the lighter and smaller compact platform that RSX uses. It would have been cheaper as well. A 200 HP using K20A on 2850 lb. TSX (if it were a 4-door RSX instead of sportier and smaller Accord) wouldn't have been a terrible choice for $25K, would it?
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    The much larger RWD Infiniti G35 Sedan (unlike a FWD vehicle, a RWD/AWD vehicle has additional heavy hardware extending to the rear), weighs in at 3,336 lbs.

    But it has 260HP and 260lbs/ft of torque to propel it around.

    The difference in this case is that the Infiniti extensively uses super-strong (and expensive) forged Aluminium alloy (NOT the much cheaper cast alloy) extensively in its suspension, the axle housings, the engine and also its body. That enables them to come up with a lighter yet strong RWD product. With 112.2 inch wheelbase, it has a very roomy interior too.

    Later...AH
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    reminds me of a Honda Civic, possibly 1996?

    can anyone help me here?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    musicman12

    I'm not in the market as of now, but when it is time, I will be targeting $24K. With MSRP of $26460, my guess on invoice is $23.8K. That may not be possible for a few months though, but I have time, and you appear to have that on your side as well.

    steve_on
    Besides Acura badges, is the TSX really more than a European Accord ?

    TSX is identical to Japanese and European Accord in most aspects. The differences are in the interior, features and the overall tuning of the chassis. In that regard you can think of it as a mix of attributes from the variations of Japanese/European Accord.

    It gets chassis tuning of Japanese Accord 24S/Euro-R (there is no equivalent in Europe at this time). The only physical difference is choice of tires/wheel. While 24S/Euro-R use P215/45/R17 all season/performance tires, TSX gets P215/50/R17 all season tires.

    It gets the engine used in Japanese Accord 24T/24TL/24S (in Europe, the engine is rated lower, at 190 HP/163 lb.-ft). But, it gets 6-speed manual, being offered in Europe with the K24A, but that choice is not offered in Japanese 24T/24TL/24S.

    The interior is exclusive. Japanese and European Accords have interior identical to that of American Accord. A few trims have been added as well (for example, the door sill plate is stainless steel in the TSX compared to plastic in Accords). The gas pedal is hinged at the bottom as it is in Euro-R model, but no other Accord has it at this time. The standard feature list is about as extensive as it is in the Japanese Accord 24TL.

    bsum70
    I am sure if they can lower the price to $25,000, almost all the critisms about the car will go away....

    Other excuses will be invented. If Acura offered TSX with a stripped model for a low price, not unlike RSX/Integra, many will make sure to say that it should be marketed as a Honda.

    Many features that come standard with TSX, are offered by several automakers at an added cost in the form of packages. Here are some,

    Sport Package: $1000-$1500
    Xenon Headlamps: $500
    Upgraded Audio: $250-500 (TSX: 360W 8-speaker; Accord EX/EXV6: 120W 6-speaker. Both come with in-dash CD changer).
    Stability Control: $250
    Leather/Moonroof/Cold Weather package: $2000-2500.

    Is that worth about $4.5K? To provide another perspective, compare the TSX (MSRP: $26,460) to Accord EX-L (MSRP: $23,800). Add sport package, xenon headlamps, upgrade audio, add stability control, add side curtain airbags, upgrade to auto dim rear view mirrors, add home link transmitter, upgrade interior trim pieces and leather for a more upscale feel and improved power train. Would the Accord EX-L now cost $25K? Or, would it be at least as much, if not more, as the TSX? You decide.

    merc1
    It's a nice car in need of a better engine.
    Not IMO. It appears to have plenty of it, but then, the only transmission choice I will go for would be 6-speed and that is going to have an impact because it is geared for performance, the auto is not. Otherwise, Honda/Acura do offer more powerful alternatives in the form of Accord V6 and Acura TL for those who need more power.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    hunter001,

    I wonder why BMW can't trim fat either.
  • markjennmarkjenn Member Posts: 1,142
    ClubTSX has already reported dealer invoice as follows:

    w/o Nav: MSRP: $26,990, Invoice: $24,646
    w/ Nav: MSRP: $28,990, Invoice: $26,467

    Very slow-selling cars will occasionally sell below invoice but typically only with factory support. I view it highly unlikely that this car will be such a dog that Acura has to step in and do incentives, but anything is possible.

    As in all things, I wouldn't get hung up on the discount. GM cars right now have huge discounts, but that doesn't have me down at the Chevy dealer. The key is whether the car represents a good value for you at the market price, whether that be list or heavily discounted.

    - Mark
  • akal50akal50 Member Posts: 112
    I agree. The TSX looks great but it's overpriced. For the money they're asking, I'd rather get a TL-S. I'll be leasing so I don't mind if it's a 5 year old design cause in 3 years, I can get the new one anyway. Maybe by then, the TSX will have a V6.
  • steve_onsteve_on Member Posts: 70
    So TSX more or less is a Europe/Japan spec Accord with a $$ Accura $$ badge. Is this Accura's version of "mop and glow"??? LOL

    Someone tell me when the dealers are selling close to invoice.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    steve_on,

    If that is what you'd like to think, nothing matters, does it?
  • steve_onsteve_on Member Posts: 70
    Hey it's just a message board, and my comments were directed at Acura, not you.

    You must sell Acura's or something and are a bit on the sensitive side about justifying the TSX's price.

    Chill out.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I don't think this is the right forum to introduce each other. Any other question/concern that bothers you?
  • himilerhimiler Member Posts: 1,209
    You may be alone in thinking that this is an argument-driven environment.

    Arguing, particularly when pursued with the zeal you demonstrate, invariably alienates others.

    When you consider the fact that none of us here (yourself included) is an outright expert on the TSX, it makes anything more intense than the SHARING of information and opinions look rather silly.
  • bodble2bodble2 Member Posts: 4,514
    We're here to talk about cars, not argue about each other!

    (I was in the neighborhood and thought I'd save the host some time) :P
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    We are here to share opinions within a community of car enthusiasts and car seekers, be they members or lurkers, experts, novices or somewhere in between.

    We most emphatically are not here to provide a place for arguments.

    I think that it's time to tone down the stridency that has become so intense in here. We just need to relax and converse as though we were in a friend's living room somewhere talking about a favorite topic.

    Arguments are not only not necessary, they are entirely out of line.

    Thanks.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Well you didn't get here quite in time, bd, since I was composing as you were posting. Nor did you use enough words. You know me better than that.

    ;->
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    himiler

    It is not about being an expert or claiming to be, it is about sharing pieces of information or adding to a perspective instead of being fixated on misinformation or tunnel vision. If you prefer, scroll back to #1741 and see how it can alienate a person. And if possible, help me to figure out the same.

    pat HOST
    most emphatically are not here to provide a place for arguments... Arguments are not only not necessary, they are entirely out of line.

    I couldn't disagree more. Arguments can imply verbal altercations or expressing a point of view. I hope the ability to discriminate between the two approaches is alive and well.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Okay, but understand that "verbal altercations" do not fit with the term of your Membership Agreement that requires civil and respectful discourse. There have been some recent messages that do not comply with that. For example, if we do not like what someone else has posted, the best thing to do is just move on. Making a personal swipe at the person is totally uncalled for.

    I was attempting to handle the situation informally because I didn't get here until several exchanges had occurred - I hope that was not a mistake.

    There is also another part of the Membership Agreement that forbids disruptive off-topic posts. This line of conversation has suddenly become disruptive and it is way off-topic.

    If you want to continue any of these conversations that are not about the TSX, please do so off-line. My email address is, of course, in my profile. If others have private email addresses, it is their choice whether to share them.

    In any case, we need to get back to the TSX and stop talking about each other.

    Thanks.
  • bodble2bodble2 Member Posts: 4,514
    Hmmmm, do I? I assume bd = me? It almost sounds like we've met ;)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
  • steve_onsteve_on Member Posts: 70
    Cars direct is showing the TSX at MSRP $26,990 , with a invoice @ $24,646.

    At or near invoice the TSX does not look too bad considering all the trim level improvements over the humble Accord. But still, a $3k bump over a 4 door 160 HP EX is quite a bit of trim and handling tweaks.
  • hunter001hunter001 Member Posts: 851
    My take on the above is that some of us start behaving as if we need to defend every inch of the TSX or any other Acura, at any cost, regardless of the merits on the other side. I own an Acura (3.2TL) and have owned other Acuras in the past and hence I am not some troll out to denigrate Acuras. But I do keep an open mind on what is around me.

    I don't mind pointing out the weaknesses of the current TSX, since people ought to be making informed decisions about a high ticket purchase. Not to be railroaded into a decision by being bamboozled by images of "broad torque curves" and whatever else the marketing types want us to believe in, while the ground reality is at variance from all those depictions, the reasons for which (weight of the car) are obvious.

    The TSX as a concept is a fairly good one. Bring out a smaller version of the US-spec Accord, since the US-spec Accord had somehow developed the impression of having become large, ungainly and overweight over the past several years. The smaller European Accord version, would obviously be expected to be lighter, look sleeker (with a European design), be much nimbler, have a tuned engine that will take advantage of all of the above. Thus even though it is equipped with a "4-cylinder", it would have the performance that even a 6-cylinder in the larger Honda Accord will not be able to touch. Handling would approach/exceed that of other European makes that have a more impressive pedigree and a more dynamic set of drive-wheels. All at a price that will appear to be a steal.

    What finally landed here, is a very heavy car that was heavier than the supposed "large, ungainly and overweight" US-spec Accord. Thus the engine that was supposed to be the centerpiece of the whole show, was saddled with carting along a heavier package than what the "concept of the TSX" had led us to believe, since we would assume that smaller is definitely *lighter* and certainly not *heavier*. On top of all that, the price certainly resulted in quite a bit of sticker shock.

    *Weight* is the killer of performance, and this certainly seems to be the case with the dimensionally *small* TSX. Nobody who has driven the car, talks of being *excited* or *blown away* at this car. They all come away with the impression of the engine being "adequate" or "more than adequate when revved" or some such term that does not signify something associated with an exciting brand-new product, which was awaited with bated breath for a long time. Some of us are trying to convince ourselves about how good the TSX is (heart), but unfortunately, a nagging voice somewhere within us (brain), is keeping us from biting the bullet. JMHO.

    Later...AH
  • mdwittemdwitte Member Posts: 1
    Accord Coupe V-6 manual? Weights are about the same, TSX 3230 vs Accord 3260, but the Accord has 240 hp vs 200 for the TSX. Why would I want the Acura?
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