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Acura TSX
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Comments
Whether your point or mine is more valid, the end effect on this discussion is the same: The US market can't just tell the factory to make 10% more next month.
For better or worse, Honda thinks 15K units is the right number. And I've seen about as many posts saying that their dealers have a surplus and are doing modest deals as saying that there is long waiting list. And a lot of posts saying that once the newness wears off, the car is going to be another Vigor or Prelude slow-seller. So it appears to me like they got it about right.
- Mark
I wish there were more out there! There's something uniqye about seeing the car one likes drive by. I'm not sure if u guys agree but to see it "in real life" out side the dealership and outside a "sales" situation.
To tell everyone the truth...I was not too impresed when I saw it out there. I considered it small and a bit bland. I did speek out about the bland thing but oh well!!!! Thats probable just me.
I saw way more G35 sedans on the road the week those were first released.
Kinda like the G35 coupe. There's such high demand since they only want to sell like 12,000 this year.
I have to disagree with you on that one. The TL will probably outperform the TSX in most every measurable way, but the TSX will still weigh less, be more nimble and fun to drive, and of course, it'll be less expensive.
Although not in the same class, consider the Mazda Miata. Perhaps the most well balanced, fun to drive car on the road today. It single-handedly reinvented a market that had all but disappeared; with only a 116 hp four cylinder engine.
The TSX is by no means in the same league as the Miata, but more than a little of the spirit (and driving dynamics) is there...
there's enough people out there who don't get a car based upon some horsepower and torque quota. like actually driving the car. the engine is one of the car's strengths.
Despite all the criticisms, the TSX has a decent amount of power for many buyers. There's a lot of discussion of what the TSX lacks. Here's a question on what it has that others lack:
Quick, name another near-luxury, good-handling, fairly quick, Honda-reliable, good-resale, good safety-featured, non-stripped, well-equipped (including xenons) sedan selling for $27k? Or even for under $30k?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there aren't any! Mazda 6? Not near-luxury, no xenons, resale probably won't be great, reliability not as good. You can't get a well-equipped Lexus IS at this price. I like the G35 but you'd have to strip it down to get under $30k. The Altima 3.5 SE won't have the near-lux interior, resale and possibly the reliability. Passats don't have this level of reliability or sportiness and don't come with xenons except for the expensive W8's. A 9-3 gets close but simply won't have the resale and the same reliability level. An S60 has similar limitations. A current TL won't handle as well and doesn't have up-to-date safety equipment like side-curtain airbags.
Great point. I'm not a honda guy but I really liked the TSX. for its price 25-26k (w/o navi) it's tough to beat.
I can name the G35 and the IS300. In paper they may seem more expensive due to a high MSRP but in reality the do compete just under 30K since they DO sell at Invoice, close to invoice and sometimes just under.
The only pluss is that the TSX is actually more like 29K and at that price it includes the Nav system that I like so much. So yes you are partially right...but the G35 at a near Invoive price is a great deal and takes TSX right on!
My point earlier was, I dont see them enough and the one I saw out and about I did not like the way it looked. In the dealership is another story.
Uh, no. I was going to buy a G35. Sticker on a g35 leather, stick, premium, the works comes out to over 32-33k. Even with deals you're looking at maybe 30k.
I can get a TSX for 25-26k. A G35 rings in 4-5k higher.
The only plus is that the TSX is actually more like 29K and at that price it includes the Nav system that I like so much.
What? Try 27k. The TSX with Navi (talk about a wasteful luxury item - $200 in parts that they're marking up 1000%) has an invoice of 26.5. Getting it for 27k is quite reasonable. If you're paying MSRP on any Acura, you're getting raped. I had offers that dropped 1k off sticker before I even attempted to negotiate!
So yes you are partially right...but the G35 at a near Invoive price is a great deal and takes TSX right on!
You're not comparing the same cars! In fact you seem to purposely be misrepresenting facts. Do an apples to apples comparo. Do up a G35 with premium and navigation: MSRP = $35,395. Invoice is $32,300.
Huh, 32,000 v. 27,000. Once again there is a 5k difference. Oh and the G35 with Navi is not under 30k.
And u r right. The TSX is STILL less, were we disagree is that is not 5K. According to the numbers around here is more like
$28,990msrp TSX (NAV)-vs- $32,011invoice L/Nav G35
So we are talking 3K difference apples to apples. Like I said, the problem is that the TSX is MSRP and the G35 is at Invoice. TSX will not go under invoice so this is apples to apples in the sense that they are the best prices avail for this models.
So if you drop the Nav in the G they will come near. I pay the extra few K for a G or Bimmer no problem.
Not the case around here...maybe in the future. AND YOU ARE RIGHT AGAIN. PAYING MSRP IS LIKE GETTING RAPED AND I WILL NOT DO THAT. NO!
Thats why I look at Bimmer and G as an alternative even though is a bit more.
If you want a G35 buy a G35. It's nice looking and FAST. However, you are getting a $25,000 interior for a $32,000 price tag. At least in the TSX you are getting what you pay for at the very least.
I agree that $3k isn't a huge difference in many buyer's eyes, and I myself would pay that extra premium to get the G35's additional power and handling. But $3k is often considered a barrier into another price class, especially around $30k when it's 10% more.
But, in general, the TSX is still pretty much alone in its price zone. It'd be tough for a lot of folks to get well-equipped G35 under $30k. Perhaps if Infiniti starts offering heavy incentives to get out-the-door prices consistently under $30k.
I don't view the $7K as being a huge difference between the G35 and the 330i either. I'm not sure where the line in the sand is, but some people might view the 3K as insurmountable, while others view the 3K as pocket change. A person on the Mazda forum made a stink about $200.
Plus I added that $3k, or more than 10%+ in this price band, is often considered a barrier to purchase.
Wordsmithing aside, I'd personally consider a $7k difference in a $35k vehicle to be a huge difference. That's more than a 20% difference. And it can really alter the complexion of what you can buy.
I still think the TSX has a ton of attributes at a price that legitimately comparable vehicles can't match. And should the TSX begin widely discounting after the initial hoopla is over, that'll only help.
But it's not the $3000 savings that steered me into a TSX, it's the total TSX package. Except for the obvious difference in straight-line speed, the TSX is simply the nicer car to me. I think the TSX is more handsome outside, gorgeous inside, has higher quality materials throughout, more standard features, is more comfortable, and I love revving that slick I-4!
I just found the TSX better balanced and more fun to drive, and wasn't willing to lose all those advantages just to reach 60 MPH or the 1/4 mile a second quicker.
But that's just me...
If not why? I am under the impresion that leasing a pre-owned car has some disadvantages (pre-owned meaning yr 2000 or neweer).
" ..What? Try 27k. The TSX with Navi (talk about a wasteful luxury item - $200 in parts that they're marking up 1000%) ..."
The Honda's integrated NAV with voice prompt is probably one of the best, if not the best currently available.
The Garmin Deluxe Street Pilot, fully loaded with all options is about $800 and it is excellent, but doesn't have voice input.
If you have need for a NAV then they are great. However, if you don't then I guess it is hard to see any value in one.
I am not sure where you can get one for $200 to qulify for a 1000 percent markup.
Anyway if you get a Mazda Six then one could always add a Garmin or Magellan
The payments on a used lease should be lower since most cars depreciate less in the second 3 years than in the first 3 years.
However the car would be 6 years old by the time you return it. You will have higher maintenance costs, because the amount of maintenance required gets more extensive with age and mileage. You will be out of warranty and you will have to replace things not covered by warranty anyway, such as tires, battery and brakes as the miles pile on.
Spending money on new tires, brakes and repairs on a car you don't own is not nice and will eat into your "savings." Plus you are driving around in an old car you don't own during the last couple years of the lease.
s852 hit the nail about the potential costs of leasing used. Also:
Since the new market is [generally] heavily supported right now to keep sales going, the benefits of used leasing are diminished.
Also, it's a much less transparent market with more variables, so the chance of getting a good deal is lowered. For example, here in the "Lease Questions - ask here" board, Car_Man can give residuals and money factors for almost any new car (so you can calculate your own deal), but doesn't have used lease info.
Other that, the math should be the same...
Squirrel
Re-read post #2548.
That may be, but fed obviously sees more value in the TSX vs the G35 and the TSX has more utility to him.
If you have need for a NAV then they are great. However, if you don't then I guess it is hard to see any value in one.
I am not sure where you can get one for $200 to qulify for a 1000 percent markup.
A manufacturer purchasing the components wouldn't pay more than $200 or so for those parts. LCD screen is maybe $50-70. DVD drive is around $10-15. Input controls maybe $5-10. Software/processor is really the only expensive stuff and that's maybe gonna run you $100 (if you didn't do your own programming).
$200 worth of parts marked up to $2000 (true pretty much across the board for manufacturers).
That said, at $2K, the NAV in TSX may be worth it for some, may not be for others.
That said, at $2K, the NAV in TSX may be worth it for some, may not be for others.
Did I write that consumers pay manufacturer prices on equipment? No. I wrote that the manu pays about $200 for the equipment and then marks it up $1800. It's an obscene rip off and rather disturbing that 5-10 years after navi came out the prices have not dropped and people aren't demanding that the prices fall into line with actual costs. a 200% markup is decent. Heck, 300 or 400%. But 2k for technology that hasn't changed or improved in years?! Speech recognition? Good grief I had that on my computer in 1996.
I don't think that $2000 is a rip-off. How much do you think it would cost to get someone to ride with you every where you go and tell you where to turn, where the closest restaurant is, and where to go to the movies. Then you would have to pay them to turn on your AC, your stereo, and get directions whenever you told them to without complaint. Then you would have to explain to that person that they have to stay in the car without AC even if it is 100 degrees outside. And then have that person warrant themselves for 4 years against any defect or attitude problem. Add up that cost for 5 hours, let alone 4 years. And how long do you think your computer would last were it to be left outside in extremely cold or extremely hot temperatures for 4 years?
Not to mention even the top aftermarket NAV systems go for $1500 and up. So maybe it's a rip-off to you but had I been able to find a 2003 Accord EX-L 5-speed with NAV I would've gladly paid the extra $2000.
I have a feeling that they WILL go down in price and that more auto models will offer this feature at a more affordable prize.
The problem is that even aftermarket GPS Auto Navs are at still a wopping 1K (i.e. Garmin, magellan, Pioneer etc). And they DO look ugly and awkward...just like mounted Cell Phone systems did in the early 90's not to mention on the way and taking space.
So whats left...pay extra (for those of us that use it and like it) and yes Acura makes an awesome one...tried it!
Nav Systems may go in that direction. Right...no minutes but it is safer. Maybe insurance companies give an incentive discount to those who own one. To avoid dangerous areas or to monitor speed. For those who drive under speed limit (I dont know) since it has a GPS. Maybe someone will actually come up with a minute charge system were u only pay by the minute when u need it. A combination of Nav, Cell Phone, Computer, OnStar. Kind of a MapQuest for cars on the move. By the way it should be able to read e-mails and be online with voice.
Thats me...a gadget freak who DOES use technology and think its the way of the future...just let it role!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is were we're heading weather you and I like it or not. There is no sense in fighting technology and mechanical evolution...if you do not like it dont use it (thats fine also). My mother refuses to learn Internet and or computers. On the other hand she does NEED it, but refuses. That is her prorogative. Other people do not like Air Conditioning, Microwave, and who knows what other inventions. So be it!
Acura charges $2K for the navi because that is what the market will pay. And this price level allows a profit to be made given all the costs of production, engineering, marketing, and data licensing distrbuted over the number of units they sell. (Or at least we presume they make a profit - it is also possible that they are taking losses to help seed the market or as a loss-leader to sell to some segment of the market that won't buy the car otherwise. My guess is that they make a healthy profit, but I don't think any of us really know.)
Is the price "obscene"? I don't know, but saying that it $200 in parts and saying that they're making 10X profit is faulty accounting in the extreme.
And the price isn't going to come down when we "demand" it. It will come down when the costs come down and when adapation rises so that costs can be distributed over a larger number of units. In reality, it will come down when someone else sells a competing system more cheaply. Supply and demand.
The nav isn't worth $2K to me for the same reason that I'd never willingly pay $1K-$2K more for a slightly improved car stereo system that says Monsoon, Bose, or Mark Levinson.
It's a free country and a mfg can charge what they want. It's not like Honda is forcing you to buy it. (Unlike the manual vs. auto pricing where manual buyers have to pay extra to subsidize the more expensive auto. In other markets, the Euro Accord has conventional pricing where the auto is $1200 more.)
- Mark
BUT YOU ARE RIGHT...MOST PEOLPLE WILL AGREE WITH YOU AND WAIT UNTILL THE DROP. I JUST GOT MY FIRST DVD A FEW MONTHS AGO....
If we agree with the above statement then the topic/point is mute..as it is a matter of taste and luxury