I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

andys120 · January 2013

Scottsdale AZ becomes the old car capital of the world every third week in January when the big auctions roll into town. There are thousands of interesting old cars to be seen ranging from "who would collect those?" to multi-million dollar one-of-a-kinds. Aside from Amelia Island and Monterey there is nothing like it.

A few impressions of this year's crop

-Loads of Shelbys of all kinds, perhaps drawn out by the passing of Carroll Shelby. Small block
289 powered Cobras (my favorite) were especially prominent, I saw at least a dozen different ones including a continuation car made by Shelby American in 2012 to commemorate the 50th Anniversary. I didn't see any Daytona Coupes or original GT40s. Most of the Shelby Mustangs seemed to be '67 or '68 models.

-Last years events featured a lot of microcars like the BMW Isettas but I didn't see very many of those or too many of the interesting little oddballs like the Citroen 2CV or DKW 3=6. There were a lot of Fiat 500s and all sorts of Fiat Abarths including an Autobianca Bianchina-Abarth :confuse:

-Where have all the rat rods gone? A couple of years ago the intentionally distressed stripper street rod with steel rims and dog dish hubcaps was the thing to have. Now it seems like they've all gotten glossy repaints, flame jobs and chromed dubs.

-There's a similar phenomenon that cropped up last year. They're auctioning rare cars in "Barn-Found" condition. I saw a Lancia Aurelia B24 Spider and a silver E-Jag that were covered with dust, dirt and even mud but oddly had only surface rust and minor dings for sale.

-The best places to see the classic Euro sports cars I favor are the Bonham's and Gooding Auctions These aren't that big, they each cram a few dozen to-die-for classics into an area about the size of a super market parking lot. To me that's more impressive than the 16 acres of cars at Barret-Jackson, which is just too many to process properly IMO.

Porsches, particularly 356 variants and early 911s were particularly prominent. There were lots of big Healeys, most of which were Mk.II BN7 models. I didn't see any of the later BJ8 Mk III types which is odd. There were Jaguars of all kinds, they seemed to be everywhere, including lots of nice Mk. II sedans, XK-120s and E-Types.

MY favorite this year was a wine-colored '64 or '65 E-Type 3.8/S1 Coupe. I've never seen this color on an XK-E but it might be the most beautiful road car I've ever seen.

ateixeira · January 2013

LOL @ thread title.

Car looks good but brings back nightmares from ours. We had a lighter red I think.

andre1969 · January 2013

Okay, I'll bite, what were the weakenesses of the '76 Cadillac engine?

I think Shifty was just being facetious there. Now I've heard that in the 1977-79 425, Caddy cheaped out in the valvetrain. I forget what, exactly, maybe the rocker arms or something? IIRC, it was something that, instead of being a thick, solid piece of metal was just a thin piece that was crimped over to double it up?

I don't think there was anything inherently bad about the 500 though, except that in later years, it was choked down and didn't put out much power for its size. I'm sure it was a guzzler, but in the context of the times probably competitive. And, I'd imagine the fuel injected versions added some complexity.

Just for kicks, I googled "Cadillac 500 weakness", and the only thing that popped up was a vague reference to the valvetrain.

uplanderguy · January 2013

The only complaint I've ever heard about the 500 over the years was that they could only squeeze 190 hp out of 500 CID!

uplanderguy · January 2013

This exact car is a regular at local cruise-ins around me during the summer. The guy was employed at Lordstown when he bought the car. It's a '72 and has the nice (IMO) black cloth Custom Interior.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7764622@N06/2292021827/

I think the wagons need the roof rack, though!

Personally, I like the '74-75 styling best and the '76-77 a close second. The bumpers and mirrors on those early Vegas seem so doll-house diminutive, I actually like the 5 mph aluminum bumpers better.

stickguy · January 2013

I agree about the bumpers. The Vega did look better balanced with the later ones and the slant nose.

Vega always did look like a miniature Camaro though.

fintail · January 2013

Yeah the white letter tires work with a "sporty" model, and I would prefer cloth too - so long as it didn't have any age-related rot and was in danger of splitting when someone dares to sit on it.

uplanderguy · January 2013

There's another guy on this forum who agrees about the early Vegas looking a bit 'fragile'. Some folks think they're the best-looking though, and that of course is OK.

fintail · January 2013

I am surprised there would be real oddballs like Fiats there at all - they must sell better at home. But I guess if someone wants it, the shipping isn't a huge deal.

I am curious as to what auctions and markets will look like in another 20 years, when boomer demographic changes really take hold.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2013

Do you know what that '64 (or was it '65) Porsche 356 Cabriolet C sold for? Gooding had it up but haven't posted results yet.

RE: VEGA -- I wouldn't mind having a Vega wagon. I wonder if an Astre engine would work in there? Did they made an Astre wagon? Is there one left on earth?

RE: '76 Cadillac---yeah, I was being facetious--just picked another '76 car out of the hat; however, as uplander mentioned, that was pretty pathetic HP out of such a huge engine. You know, some people like 'em, but those people are usually between 90 and 107 years old. :P

uplanderguy · January 2013

The Astre and the Vega had the same engine at the Astre's introduction, but Astre later went to the "Iron Duke"--I think in '76. The Vega wagon that was called "Monza" had the "Iron Duke" engine in '78 and '79 so the engine must fit right in there. You could also get V6 engines in the (Vega) "Monza" wagon from the factory.

andre1969 · January 2013

RE: '76 Cadillac---yeah, I was being facetious--just picked another '76 car out of the hat; however, as uplander mentioned, that was pretty pathetic HP out of such a huge engine.

One thing that's an extra slap in the face, is that in 1976, if you specified a 454 in a full-size Chevy, it had 225 hp. The Caddy 500 only had 190 with the 4-bbl carb. If you coughed up another $600, you got fuel injection, which bumped that up to all of 215 hp.

That year's Pontiac 455 put out 200 hp. The Olds put out 190 hp, but there was a 215 hp option for the Toronado. And Buick's 455 was rated at 205 hp.

Chrysler's 440 was rated at 205 hp that year, while the Ford 460 was at 202. So, it seems like the Caddy 500 had the worst hp-to-CID ratio of any of the big engines out there. I wonder if it at least had a torque advantage?

Oddly, it looks like the Mopar 400 was about the strongest engine around. My old car book is listing it as offering 240, 255, and 260 hp variants, in addition to the more common, choked down 165-175 hp or so versions.

I wonder if that's a mis-print? Or, if those are copcar 400's? Or, copcar 440s mis-labled as 400s? Consumer Guide doesn't always do the best job in the world at proof-reading their work!

andre1969 · January 2013

The Astre and the Vega had the same engine at the Astre's introduction, but Astre later went to the "Iron Duke"--I think in '76.

While I have the old car book out, I thought I'd look. According to it, the Iron Duke came out for 1977, and was standard in the Astre hatchback and wagon, as well as all Sunbird models. The 140 CID aluminum engine was standard in the Astre "sedan" (their term for it, not mine), with the Iron Duke being optional.

For '78, the Iron Duke replaced the aluminum engine completely.

Also, looks like the Vega never got the Iron Duke. The aluminum engine was the only 4-cyl offered in the Monza for '75-77, and went to the Iron Duke for '78.

Olds and Buick tried to be a bit upscale, making the 231 V-6 standard on the Skyhawk and Starfire for '75. For '77 though, they made the aluminum 4 standard on the Starfire, then the Iron Duke for '78. Looks like the Skyhawk stayed with a standard 231 V-6 for its entire run. Even when the under-sized 196 version came out, Buick saved that for ~~abuse~~ use on the larger Century/Regal.

uplanderguy · January 2013

Thanks for confirming that the Astre still had the Vega 140 in '76. I was so used to seeing it in ads referred to as "Vega's Dura-Built 140" I couldn't remember when Pontiac stopped using it. I knew there was at least one year when the Vega had the aluminum engine and the Astre didn't.

When they made Vega-based "Monza S" hatchbacks in '78 and '79 too (I think--our dealer hardly got any), plus "Monza" (really, Vega) wagons in '78 and '79, they were all Iron Dukes or the optional V6 (I'm thinking 3.2 liters). The "Sunbird" (Astre) wagon continued into '78 and possibly '79 as well.

fintail · January 2013

On the road today - BMW clown shoe M coupe, ~75 Ford big wagon, not a woody, but looked relatively nice.

andre1969 · January 2013

spotted from a distance, parked behind a building. Most of it was blue, but it had black fenders, and looked rough in general, but useable. There was a Ford product of similar vintage parked next to it, but I didn't get a good look at it. Looked like it might've been a Mercury.

Also saw an old Ford medium-duty flatbed truck on the road. Not sure of the year, but it looked kinda like this:

I think they pretty much looked like that from 1967-79. I know the pickups were redesigned for 1973, but I don't think the medium-duty trucks were.

Seems like those Ford medium-duty trucks were everywhere for the longest time... school buses, delivery trucks, light-duty dump trucks, and so on. But, other than today I can't remember the last time I've seen one.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2013

You don't see 'em anymore for the same reason you don't see many old commercial vehicles---they were worked to death. This is also why you so rarely see the base model 4-door "stripper" sedans anymore. They were used and discarded, and never looked upon as much more than utilitarian.

andre1969 · January 2013

Yeah, that's why I was surprised to see one still in use! It looked like it was in good shape, too. The red paint of the cab was faded, but it wasn't dented, rusty, or anything.

There's a Mack dump truck still running around locally. In fact, the last time I had driveway gravel delivered, it was the truck that brought it. Not sure how old it is, but it looked like this:

I think they called this the R-series. Seems like these were all over the place at one time too, but again, now you hardly ever see them. Apparently they had a really long run though. According to Wikipedia, they were built from 1966-2005!

fintail · January 2013

Speaking of commercials, I saw a 70s looking GM "Top Kick" big dump truck on the road today, condition looked OK but it was smoking a bit. Also a nice early MR2 and a pastel blue Festiva.

stickguy · January 2013

I like old FS trucks like that for some reason. Always had a soft spot for the round fender IHs, going back to when I was little and visited my Grandparents in Vermont. And those were everywhere out in the country. That was also another one that changed very little over a few decades.

fintail · January 2013

I like some old trucks too. A lot of 50s models are cool, I like the mid 60s Ford trucks, and 70s era GM trucks can be nice, if they are a loaded edition. The convertible Blazers are pretty cool, and the Jeep variants of the era are nice too. Real trucks and SUVs, their lack of intentional style almost makes them stylish in a way.

Or maybe I just like the eye catching convertible + targa Blazer from "Earthquake"

fintail · January 2013

A big white 75-78 or so NYer 4 door HT just drove by. Saw the mean sounding 72 T-Bird I see now and then drive by not long ago, too.

andys120 · January 2013

I mentioned earlier that there were some cars for bid shown in "barn-found" condition. It seems the Lancia Aurelia B24 Spider America went for a staggering $803,000!

Wow! I'm really fond of nice Aurelias (I have a scale diecast of a a Spider America) but I don't see how one in that condition could possibly be worth so much. What do you think Shifty?

link

PS- Porsche 356s were going for good money (+$100K). Here's the Auction results.. My favorite 356 was the "Convertible D" (listed by Gooding as a " 1960 356B Roadster" (lot #46 $184,000).

ateixeira · January 2013

That'll buff right out.

hpmctorque · January 2013

Sure, and the headlight rims should be easy to locate. No problem.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2013

I'm staggered by the price. It makes no sense, really, which is why we have to be careful of the results from one single hi-profile auction with two big egos in the room.

I would have thought you could buy this same car in local show quality for less money than that---perhaps $600K. Maybe a Pebble Beach restro would sell for $800K.

Given how rare the car is, I guess the motivating "engine" that drives such sales is that the bidder realizes that he/she may not see another one for sale for years. Whether that level of "I want" justifies paying 2X market value---well, what can you say? It's their money and they can do what they want with it.

I certainly don't think this car could sell 4 or 5 times in a row at this price (and remember, there's $80K in commissions in that price anyway) but I bet this result may bump up the values of existing Americas. (This car should not be confused with the similar but more plentiful B 24S convertible)

I've actually driven the B24S convertible and it felt remarkably modern and was extremely fun to race around in. I can see the appeal. This isn't a funky MGA--these Lancias of the 50s were little jewels. Even some of the metal castings would make you drool, they are so sculptured and artistic.

robr2 · January 2013

But that's the way the collector wants them. It's been called a backlash to the over restored vehicles that have better paint and panel gaps then when new.

Some say the car collector market has matured and like other antiques, collectors want original items with all the patina.

In any case, very few of these vehicles will ever see road under their own power.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2013

I think there's a bit of one-upsmanship going on with these highly original cars. If you can't outspend Ralph Lauren and his million-dollar-plus restorations, you can still "out-original" him.

lemko · January 2013

Ask the man who owned one! I had a 1975 Cadillac Sedan DeVille with the 500 cid (8.2 litre) V-8. I exerienced no problems with the engine itself, though I did have to rebuild the carburetor. I'd say the engine wasn't remotely as powerful as its size suggested and it was something of a guzzler, but no worse than a modern SUV.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2013

yeah the car was a bit of a slug, but once you got that mass rolling down the highway, and if you kept it in a straight line and didn't do anything sudden with brakes or steering, it was a pretty comfy ride. But by all means signal the steering department and talk things over long before you plan to exit the freeway. :P

stickguy · January 2013

at least that Lancia is comething so unique you might not see another one for years.

so less shocking than seeing a 1970 Olds 442 convertible (W30) go for $330K (maybe 350?)

texases · January 2013

"but no worse than a modern SUV. "

:surprise: I guess a Suburban, maybe...

Mr_Shiftright · January 2013

What was that Olds all about? Obviously not a normal car---celebrity owned? 700 original miles? There has to be a story behind it.

Last time I looked, a '70 Olds 442 convertible with W30 in Pebble Beach condition might pull $150K.

lemko · January 2013

...beautiful white 1972 Oldsmobile 442 two door hardtop parked a few doors up from my house! Wow, who would leave such a nice car out on the street?

fintail · January 2013

I'd clean the grime off, maybe make it so you don't have to wash your hands after touching it ,and drive it like that. I like the patina and age.

But 800K? I'd rather have a gullwing.

Spotted this morning - DeLorean, same well-used looking C126 I saw several days ago, H3 pickup, and when putting the fintail in its new garage, saw another old car under a cover in a corner - I think it might be a Lotus Esprit.

ateixeira · January 2013

But 800K? I'd rather have a gullwing.

You're $1,050,000 shy if you want Clark Gable's gullwing, which sold for $1.85M.

fintail · January 2013

I could take a normal beater gullwing. I'd drive it, so I don't need it to be perfect. Those might be leaving the 6-figure world though, looks like the tax breaks given to the top few are being put to good use.

ateixeira · January 2013

beater gullwing

Is there such a thing? :shades:

andre1969 · January 2013

Well, just to use a rough comparison, a 1978 Lincoln Continental with the 460 was EPA-rated 11/17, and 13 combined. The Mark V with the 460 was rated slightly better, at 12/17, and 14 combined.

In contrast, a 2wd 2012 Suburban with the 6.0 (roughly 366 CID?) is rated 10/16, and 12 combined.

Sounds pretty close, at quick glance. However, the numbers they use nowadays are rounded downward in an attempt to reflect real-world driving. The numbers the EPA published from 1978-84 were the raw laboratory numbers. I've heard that the EPA actually started publishing estimates in 1975, but the downloadable tables on their website only go back to 1978.

Anyway, the Suburban's raw numbers? 12.7 city, 21.7 highway. 15.6142 combined.

Most Suburbans probably use the 5.3 V-8, which is rated at 15/21, and 17 combined. Raw numbers are 18.3 city, 29.4 highway, and 22.0455 combined.

Funny though, I could see someone taking one of those old 460 Lincolns, babying it along, and actually nursing 16-17 mpg out of it on the highway. I don't think any amount of nursing is going to get 29.4 out of a Suburban, unless you're drafting semi's or something!

My 2012 Ram Hemi is rated 14/20, and 17 combined, with raw numbers of 17 city, 27.1 highway, and 20.4256 combined. And again, I just couldn't see any way you could get 27.1 mpg on the highway. Or 17 in the city. My last fill up got me 12.34 mpg, in mostly local driving.

Yet, my '79 New Yorker, with its 360 2bbl, is rated something like 14/22, 17 combined. And I've actually managed to get close to 22 out of it from time to time.

I wonder if there was just something about older cars that would allow them to get close to the laboratory numbers, but with newer cars, it's harder to do, so that's why they started adjusting the numbers downward?

fintail · January 2013

It's all relative. There are some unrestored and older restoration cars out there. At a local show a few years ago, 6 or 8 gullwings showed up - one was an unusual kind of green gray, old paint with an old interior, I would have picked that one.

au1994 · January 2013

Did it finally sell? When it left the block it was at 1.8M and did not meet the reserve.

ab348 · January 2013

I used to think the nicest '70 4-4-2 convertible in the world could be had for $100K or so. The only explanation for one selling for $325K is two idiot but rich bidders trying to outdo each other and taking leave of their senses. That happens all the time at B-J. Sadly, every rust-bucket hack-job '70 Olds convertible will now be for sale for 6 figures.

I hate Barrett-Jackson now. It is such an off-putting display of nouveau-riche guys behaving badly.

andys120 · January 2013

beater gullwing

Is there such a thing?

Not anymore but, when he was 14 race-driver to be, Sam Posey, convinced his mother to lend him the $2500 to buy a "second hand" 300SL.

andys120 · January 2013

I hate Barrett-Jackson now.

I wouldn't let Craig Jackson touch my car, let alone sell it. B-J is my least favorite auction, the cars at Gooding, Bonham's and Russo & Steele are just as nice.

fintail · January 2013

Saw a 66-67 ElCamino, orange and loud; and a late 60s GM full size truck, original and still moving along.

explorerx4 · January 2013

He tried to sell his 'green hornet' Shelby, but the 1.9 million bid didn't make the reserve.

ateixeira · January 2013

They reached a deal later, it went for 1.85M.

stickguy · January 2013

I was watching with my son, and decided that it was really a scam. I think he put it in so they could promo the heck out of it, but had no intention of ever selling it.

berri · January 2013

I hate Barrett-Jackson now

Speedvison coverage just seems top get worse as well. More and more diversions and BS, while less and less actual cars up for auction. It's getting worse than all the BS over 3 hours in NFL for maybe 15 minutes of actual action!

berri · January 2013

Scams and cons in an auction - surely you jest

I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

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