I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

Mr_Shiftright · April 2013

In 1949 an ohv V-8 was an achievement. In 1951 it was old news, but it is kind of interesting as historical minutiae.

uplanderguy · April 2013

1955 President Speedster factory white leather interior, since we were discussing Stude coupes of that general era.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/myoldpostcards/6780988854/

fintail · April 2013

That's nice looking, more sporty (in a mid 50s sense) to me than luxury. Very modern, too - Stude not using a dogleg style wraparound windshield made the designs age well.

Interesting that some upper-highline makes have dabbled in the diagonal pleating in recent years.

jljac · April 2013

In 1949 an ohv V-8 was an achievement. In 1951 it was old news,

Two years seems to be a very short time for something to be "old news." 1951 was the first year of the Chrysler ohv V-8, Ford did not get one until 1954, By the time Packard and Chevrolet got theirs in 1955, the design must have been ancient history.

berri · April 2013

True, but a decade or more later, I am hard-pressed to think of anybody other than Stude and the Continental Mark II doing 'long hood, short deck'

Like them or not, I think the downsized 62 Mopars like Dodge Polara and Plymouth kind of had that in their design. But I agree, that Studebaker was an early adopter of that styling trend in the 50's. Ironically, their Euro focus might have actually held their sales back a bit in those days.

berri · April 2013

I've thought of the "personal luxury car" being relatively attainable, and kind of big and heavy - 58+ T-Bird, Riviera, Toronado, Monte Carlo, etc.

I think you make a good point about the 4 seater T-Bird bringing personal luxury to a larger sales base. Cars like the Mark II were very high priced. I'll also go with your comment that the Studebaker Hawk was more of a sporty car than luxury. I think Studebaker as lux would have been a hard sell and perhaps that's why they chased Packard.

ateixeira · April 2013

I heard people say they sounded like gargling. Funny thing is, they did.

A case of a poorly "tuned" exhaust.

Nowadays DI makes such a clatter that manufacturers just gave up and pipe artificial noises in to the cabin. Would be cool if a Volt made small block V8 sounds, no? :shades:

uplanderguy · April 2013

Ironically, the Studebaker coupes of that era were on a 120.5" wheelbase, 7 1/2 inches longer than a '58 Thunderbird...significantly longer in wheelbase.

I think nobody did 'sporty with a backseat' before that era Stude coupe.

fintail · April 2013

But the typical 17 foot Ford rear overhang made it the battleship.

That might be the pioneering segment for the Stude - sporty with a backseat. I'm having a hard time thinking of anything similar.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2013

Does anyone really care who was the third automaker to come out with a 4-speed automatic transmission? No. Same idea.

Historians on the other hand, love to document that sort of thing. I find it interesting sometimes to 'trace the evolutionary tree".

uplanderguy · April 2013

Overall length for the '58 T-Bird was 205.4 inches, versus 203.9 for a Golden Hawk.

Although truthfully, I'm not a fan of Golden Hawks, I'm not a fan of 'squarebirds' either, and I think it's mostly because those rear wheels looked so far pushed up in the body design to my eyes. But I'll agree that the car doesn't belong on a list of 100 ugliest cars.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2013

Huge overhand is very unattractive in most cars.

ab348 · April 2013

I had some experience with the K platform from Chrysler back then. My brother's mother in law had a loaded up early K-car sedan that they inherited and I got to drive for a week once. It looked really nice for a K-car, but it drove pretty poorly. I don't know if age had taken its toll on it by then but it felt loose on the road and none too powerful.

A girlfriend's brother bought a brand new Daytona coupe in '86 or '87 and I got to drive that. I actually liked it, though it was not really very powerful either but at least it handled decently and felt sporty.

My dad's last car was a Dynasty. I drove that when he was in the hospital for the last go-round. Hated it - way too soft, squirmy, and just not my kind of car. Circumstances may have colored my opinion of it.

Finally, I almost bought a '83 (I think) LeBaron coupe new - it was the original version that looked like a tarted-up K-car. It was just that, nicer than a K-car, but still felt like a cheap car in terms of engine noise, etc., though it did have the talking nanny in the dash that told you a door was a jar, etc.

ateixeira · April 2013

Let's see... one roommate had a Dodge Shadow ES 2.2l turbo, after owning an Omni turbo. Our buddy had a Daytona, 2.5l but not the turbo.

My boss' boss did have a Daytona with the turbo, some special edition IIRC. I remember helping him create the ad to sell it.

My other roommate had a Dodge Raider, which was a re-badged 2 door Montero.

I was the only Ford, surrounded by Dodges.

tjc78 · April 2013

Its funny we had tons of Mopar in the late 80s early 90s as well.

Dad had an 84 Omni
86 Shelby Charger
87 Shadow ES Turbo

My cousins had an 85 Shelby Charger, and an 87 Daytona

Mom had an 85 base Charger

Later on my Stepdad had an 83 E-class, and my stepbro had a 3.0 Spirit I think it was 92?

My Aunt also had a 94 Shadow ES V6. That was a quick little car. I remember hers was an odd duck loaded to the gills. It wasn't often you would see a Shadow with a power seat.

fintail · April 2013

Shows how relatively popular Mopar was, especially before the Japanese makes gained their huge foothold.

I remember my uncle had an E-class, and before that, one of those Omni/Turismo fastbacks. My dad had a Horizon 5-door, and a couple 90s era minivans. My brother had a (then old) K-car as his first car, and later a Sundance Duster V6. I remember a neighbor had a LeBaron coupe, replaced with a Caravan, and a friend of the family had an early Aries coupe. High school friend had a black Aries sedan that I want to say had odd louver kind of things over the rear door quarter window.

My driver's ed car was an almost new Acclaim, I suspect it was a 4cyl.

uplanderguy · April 2013

My best man was a Chrysler zone rep in the D.C. area in the mid-eighties. He put so many miles on cars he had two new ones on order at all times. I remember meeting him for lunch at their Pittsburgh office once when he was there, and we drove a black Lancer with what he called the 'swiss cheese' wheels (although I think there were two different versions of those wheels). I remember it was nice inside--black leather--and seemed to scoot. I liked the exterior styling too...didn't scream "K-car" to me like almost the entire rest of their line did.

I think I've posted this before, but he said that in his opinion, AMC built better Fifth Avenues than Chrysler had! (Fifth Avenue production went to Kenosha at some point.)

ateixeira · April 2013

Those cars were OK, it's just that they tried to stretch the K-car platform even to upscale, larger cars.

What did they call 'em? Too square, too narrow, with buyers too old to notice?

Funny thing was my first boss at my current job has a New Yorker or something like that, and it fit her to a T.

berri · April 2013

My dad was a Mopar man for many years with an occasional Ford here and there. His last Mopars were a Plymouth Reliant and I forget whether it was an Omni or a Horizon. After that it was all Ford or Mercury.

fintail · April 2013

Saw a 78-80 Malibu coupe today, and a gorgeous new-looking final run (94-95) W124 E300 Diesel.

Also a hideous customized NSX - body kit, black wheels, weird roof mounted air scoop, and it sounded like a motorboat.

hpmctorque · April 2013

"At least the 3800 was grenade proof."

Except for the plastic intake manifolds, which, unfortunately, were the ruination of many 3800s.

au1994 · April 2013

I thought those Lancers with the 'swiss cheese' wheels were nice looking cars. Pretty clean and classy but just a little sporty as well.

uplanderguy · April 2013

http://news.yahoo.com/5-worst-selling-cars-time-145500772.html

"Ford Edsel" and "Studebaker Wagenaire"?

BTW, the 940 units sold mentioned for '63-66 Wagonaire, is actually only the 1966 sales figure. For '63-66, the sales total is 19,927.

As a friend of mine said this morning, "...not exactly statistical rounding".

ateixeira · April 2013

Saw one of these yesterday.

Nissan shot themselves in the foot when the Altima came out shortly after the J30 did, with the same soft tail design. The ads aped Lexus on the dyno, but I think it cannibalized the J30 more than anything, as sales plummeted once the Altima launched.

fintail · April 2013

More "journalism" where an author isn't named. Nice.

If they want low-selling cars, the recent Acura ZDX and later RLs beat the pants off anything they mentioned. A 60 Edsel is cooler than either.

fintail · April 2013

Looked way too much like the Altima, which IIRC was advertised as a premium smaller car as well. Also, the rear end always looked kind of odd and droopy to me.

ateixeira · April 2013

At least the Altima became successful. Who else even remembers the Stanza? Only us car guys would.

texases · April 2013

The '95 vintage Altima really made an impression on me at the time, especially in black with factory alloys:

fintail · April 2013

I remember those wheels, too. That with the thin chrome trim which seemed very classy at the time, made the car look more expensive than it was.

fintail · April 2013

I remember a friend of the family had a Stanza, maybe an 83. By the early 90s it was becoming troublesome. Don't recall when I last saw one (but I bet there's a few on the road here).

uplanderguy · April 2013

A 60 Edsel is cooler than either.

I'd happily take an exact Edsel as the one shown in the (ahem), "article".

A friend and coworker of mine, longtime Ford guy, has told me for years that the Ford dealer in his hometown of Wadsworth, OH, absolutely, positively had a new '60 Edsel convertible in his showroom. They only built 76 of them! This guy is a 'detail' guy so I believe him. He's 65 BTW.

Another dopey comment about the "Wagenaire" (sheesh)--his mentioning that only the luggage gets any sun from the sliding top. He must be completely oblivious to the third-seat option in those cars.

They could be bought with supercharger, 4-speed, bucket seats, and disc brakes, and full instrumentation including tach in the instrument cluster (not strapped to the column or stuck on top of the dash). I know I'm biased, but not your typical Falcon or Valiant or Chevy II wagon.

andre1969 · April 2013

At least the Altima became successful. Who else even remembers the Stanza? Only us car guys would.

The Stanza was pretty popular back in Nissan's heyday. I had a friend in high school who didn't have his own car, but would alternate among his parents' cars. They had a Mopar minivan, an Aries or Reliant wagon, an old abused '72 Dart sedan, and an '83 or so Datsun Stanza.

When we went to college, he bought a new car, an '89 Escort LX coupe. They used the Stanza as a trade-in. It was really beat-up by then...smoking and wheezing.

As for the Dart, they took the tags off of it and then the county threatened to tow it away. Initially they offered to give it to me. I was able to get it running, but then it started leaking gasoline, so they freaked out and didn't want to risk giving me anything that "dangerous", so they just let the county take it.

My Mom and stepdad had a 1991 Stanza, which by that time was essentially a toned-down, boxier, more conservative, 4-cyl version of the Maxima. It was nothing all that great either. Transmission started to go around 90,000 miles, although they did get it to around 120,000 or so without having to replace it. It was replaced with a 1999 Altima...ugly, uncomfortable little thing, but it's proven pretty reliable. Although it did eat a transmission around 35,000 miles, I think it now has around 330-340,000 miles on it, and the car still even looks good.

It seems like as the 1980's soldiered on though, Nissans began to fall from favor. The Camry really caught on fast, and was a much stronger seller than the old Corona that it replaced. And, as the Accord grew up and became a compact, rather than a sub-compact, it really took off as well. So the Stanza sort of became forgotten.

The Corolla and Civic really seemed to overtake the Sentra, as well. Back in 1985, there was only one Japanese car that was in the top ten selling car nameplates, and that was the Sentra. But, the tide definitely shifted.

fintail · April 2013

I also think 60 Fords are somewhat interesting style-wise, so I might be biased. 60 Edsel wagon has to be pretty rare, too.

Are there any loaded supercharged Wagonaires in existence today? I'd have to imagine one of those would be worth a pretty penny.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2013

not really worth that much but should be a fun toy. I think only 15 came equipped like this but this is an "option rarity", not a production rarity, so you'd have to find a buyer who appreciates that.

Here's one for $12K

http://bringatrailer.com/2011/11/07/paxton-power-1963-studebaker-wagonaire-dayto- - na-r2/

I'd say a show ready version would sell for $25K, so an affordable collectible.

uplanderguy · April 2013

That number of 15 is for real ('63's). 44 R1 Wagonaires were built for '63, too (non-supercharged). Of the combined 59, only four were painted Velvet Black, and 25 were 4-speeds. For '64, those numbers would be even less.

That car has the grille badge put on at the factory only on cars with the complete "Super" package...and only two '63 Wagonaires were so-equipped. Of course, emblems get added over the years as we all know.

The fender badges are a good three or four inches below where the factory put them, indicating new front fenders but that's hardly a deal-killer.

Some smallish things that irk, although I realize it's not a big-dollar car:
Aftermarket roof rack, wrong wheelcovers, wheels painted red instead of off-white, bumpers lack the 'winguard' wrap-around portions that all Daytona models had that year; interior door panels are aftermarket. Seat trim looks authentic from what I can see.

As I've noted before, with a serial number, the authenticity of the car can be confirmed with a build sheet from the Studebaker National Museum, as well as original owner information if desired.

That exact car is listed on a dealer's site for sale--"Call for Price":
http://www.cosmopolitanmotors.com/listing/daytona-wagonaire/

uplanderguy · April 2013

I also think 60 Fords are somewhat interesting style-wise, so I might be biased. 60 Edsel wagon has to be pretty rare, too.

You guys who like '60 Fords have gotten me to 'take another look' at them. I've always liked '61 Starliners, but I'm liking the '60 Starliners more now than ever. I'd take a robin's egg blue one. '60 Edsel hardtop, even better, despite the vertical taillights.

I wish they'd built a Starliner-version of the '61 Mercury. I like whatever model (upper) got the wheel-opening trim and I like the Lincoln-esque rear lights and panel, but don't care for the boxy roofline.

fintail · April 2013

Seems like a good value, which I guess is what Studebaker was about. Extremely rare relatively handsome supercharged hot rod wagon, that's not a bad mix of traits.

I see on uplanderguy's link, the car is at a dealer local to me. Their prices are often kind of optimistic.

fintail · April 2013

The Edsel would be the ultimate Starliner-based car, for sure. The Starliners were pretty cars - even thought the roofline is kind of a copy of a forward look Mopar in my eyes, it pulls it off. And yeah, the taillights are the big problem in the 60 Edsel design.

I know I have mentioned it, but back in the 90s, my dad had a 60 Ford Country Sedan. Red and white on red and white, 352, it was an attractive car - bystanders seemed to love it on first sight. Wish he would have kept it - but as he bought cars on a whim, he sold them that way too. Also a huge car, 60 Fords are so wide...I remember practicing parking in that car, thinking that if I could handle it, I could park anything.

andre1969 · April 2013

Wasn't the 1960 Ford so wide that it was technically illegal in some states? I think it came in at 81.5" or something like that, and in many areas, anything over 80" has to be registered as a truck. Or, something like that?

uplanderguy · April 2013

I see on uplanderguy's link, the car is at a dealer local to me. Their prices are often kind of optimistic.

I sent them an email, inquiring as to price. I also asked for the serial number, as somewhere in my house I have a printout of all 'Avanti Powered' serial nos. for '63's which list color and equipment. It'll be interesting to see if I get a response.

I think most dealers of 'classic' cars are optimistic in their pricing!

uplanderguy · April 2013

Wasn't the 1960 Ford so wide that it was technically illegal in some states?

At Hershey maybe three years ago, I was admiring a '60 Ford Sunliner convert, robin's egg blue (not the correct name I know), in the Car Corral (for sale) and the owner was a nice guy and didn't mind chatting with someone who wasn't a serious buyer (me). He told me that story too and I recall him saying sometimes the cars were shipped without the moldings at the edge of the (flat) fins and the dealers installed them. Not sure about the logic of that, but I did hear that same story you did.

lemko · April 2013

Did anybody ever notice the similarities between the 1960 Ford and the 1963 Plymouth? They look like they were designed by the same guy:

uplanderguy · April 2013

Geez, lemko, there's the color of '60 Starliner I want!

There are some similarities, but whenever I see a '63 Plymouth, I think of two things:

1) The car that nerdy Robin Williams drove in "Awakenings".
2) The commercial currently on TV for Sensa, which I think shows the car and its inhabitants at a drive-in. They show that asymmetrical instrument cluster in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wU4K6-MNUM

uplanderguy · April 2013

Here's one for $12K

http://bringatrailer.com/2011/11/07/paxton-power-1963-studebaker-wagonaire-dayto- - - - na-r2/

According to the comments below in the thread, the 'Buy It Now' was exceeded and the winning bid then was $15,601.00.

It's apparently lost the "T" in "STUDEBAKER" on the tailgate between 2011, when it sold, and later when for sale by the dealer out fintail's way.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2013

Ah yes, Cosmopolitan Motors.....well, one's asking price is good exercise for your First Amendment rights.

A car like that would be a little gem with a modern V-8, fuel injection, AC and a killer sound system.

fintail · April 2013

I think of "Leave it to Beaver", and "Independence Day" (I think the latter was a 62, maybe even a Dodge, but same style).

That 60 Ford is a good example of a bridge between the 50s and 60s.

fintail · April 2013

I think I remember reading about that - but an unenforced law that might have been changed after the car hit the road. Must have caught some Pontiac Fever.

ab348 · April 2013

The '95 vintage Altima really made an impression on me at the time

I have to ask:

For god's sake, why? I can barely think of a more anonymous car.

andre1969 · April 2013

The one in "Independence Day" was a 1962 Plymouth Savoy. Had to look it up though; I didn't know that off the top of my head.

Leave it to Beaver's last season was 1962-63, so there certainly would have been plenty of '63 cars showing up. However, I don't think the Cleavers got a new car that final season. In the jazzy opening where they're hopping in the car and Beaver turns to look out the rear window, I'm pretty sure that one's still a '62.

But, I'm sure there were '63 Plymouths used as background/minor vehicles. And for some reason, I'm picturing a '63 Dodge Polara, when Wally goes out with some friends, in one of their parents' cars and they take a shortcut but go through a puddle and stall out.

As for the Cleaver cars, I think Ward started off with a 1957 Ford Custom 300 sedan...pretty modest, as the first season was '57-58, you'd think they'd put him in a '58 car, and a fancier Fairlane!

And I'm thinking the next car they got was a 1960 Plymouth. At least I don't remember them ever having a '58 or '59 anything. They also had a '61 Plymouth. Sometimes they'd goof up though, and use stock footage of the '60 pulling up into the driveway, but then in the closeup it would be a '61.

And then, finally, there was the '62 Plymouth.

I guess Mr. Cleaver didn't have as good of a job as Mike Brady, who could buy a nice new convertible every year. And one year, actually went through TWO cars...a 1972 Impala and what was probably the only 1972 Barracuda convertible ever built!

berri · April 2013

Did anybody ever notice the similarities between the 1960 Ford and the 1963 Plymouth?

You mean the Plymouth looks like a downsized and squared off Ford? Well, Elwood Engel worked at Ford before Chrysler quickly brought him over to replace Virgil Exner after the downsized 62 debacle hit. Since the 63 was a short lead time, crash effort to make the prior 62 look bigger, Engel may have been involved since Exner was now gone. Of course, there were a lot of designers floating between auto companies back in those days as well. Interesting observation, particularly because you don't seem to see a whole lot of either of those vehicles. I always thought the 60 Ford's front end had just a touch of 62 Continental influence, maybe the grill texture or front end fender curves or something. Meanwhile, I think the 60 Ford and 63 Plymouth both have somewhat unusual front end appearances that made them stick out a bit back in their day.

I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

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